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[OB] The true nature of the heralds


MonsterMetroid

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Hey guys I just came across this WoB on arcanum, and I apologize if this is common knowledge but it is new to me!

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Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

Hypothetically speaking, if some of the main Radiants were to die at the end of book 5, go to Braize and then spend the time in between 5 and 6 there, would they age?

[PENDING REVIEW]

There are lots of problems with that question.  If a Radiant dies, they don't go to Braize. A Herald would, but a Herald is a Cognitive Shadow, so there's inherent problems in there.  When you're a Cognitive Shadow, aging is different there, because you're basically a ghost.  Even if you've been stapled to a body, it happens weirdly.  So there's all kinds of flaws in that question.

So what does this change to you guys? Does this mean Jezrien was immediately forced to beyond or was he himslef captured in a gem (like some sort of spren in a fabrial)? 

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Given that the dagger Jezrien was killed with had a sapphire in the hilt and our attention is called to how it started to glow after he got shanked by Moash, it seems more likely that his soul (or perhaps just the bit of his spiritweb related to the Oathpact, assuming it could be isolated) was trapped in the gem in order to keep Jezrien from returning to Braize after death. He was able to tell that something was different about this death before he finished the whole 'dying' thing, which suggests that something was happening to his soul that he could feel as opposed to somehow immediately sending him Beyond which shouldn't have been apparent until he was actually dead.

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Yeah. Either Jezrien is in that gem, or the parts of him that made him a Herald were painfully ripped away and are in the gem. I think the second most likely. 

So in my opinion the investiture that allowed him to remain as a CS is gone, and with it, that death sent him beyond. Jezrien is truly gone for good. 

Edited by Calderis
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24 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Yeah. Either Jezrien is in that gem, or the parts of him that made him a Herald were painfully ripped away and are in the gem. I think the second most likely. 

So in my opinion the investiture that allowed him to remain as a CS is gone, and with it, that death sent him beyond. Jezrien is truly gone for good. 

This is what I have been thinking as well, with the WOB saying what happened was based on the same fundamentals as hemalurgy, it seems most likely that the gem took part of Jezrien's spirit web, the part making him a CS. Big question now is, can someone else attach that to their own spirit web, maybe through swallowing the gem?

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36 minutes ago, Messremb said:

This is what I have been thinking as well, with the WOB saying what happened was based on the same fundamentals as hemalurgy, it seems most likely that the gem took part of Jezrien's spirit web, the part making him a CS. Big question now is, can someone else attach that to their own spirit web, maybe through swallowing the gem?

Moash did get a cool new name that rhymes with Fire, and the Leshwi also told him when he was offered the choice of taking Jezrein's honorblade "If you take it, you die. Moash will be no more." and Moash replies "Moash's world is no more, he might as well join it in the tomb."

Vyre, according to Khen means He Who Quiets.

Pretty interesting too that it seems like our favorite jerk now named Vyre is capable of fueling the surges granted by the Honorblade with Voidlight investiture:

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Vyre, He Who Quiets, sucked in the light of the sphere.

It was sweet and beautiful, and—as he'd been promised—brought Passion with it. He held to it, then Lashed himself upward into the sky.

 

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2 minutes ago, hoiditthroughthegrapevine said:

Moash did get a cool new name that rhymes with Fire, and the Leshwi also told him when he was offered the choice of taking Jezrein's honorblade "If you take it, you die. Moash will be no more." and Moash replies "Moash's world is no more, he might as well join it in the tomb."

Vyre, according to Khen means He Who Quiets.

Pretty interesting too that it seems like our favorite jerk now named Vyre is capable of fueling the surges granted by the Honorblade with Voidlight investiture:

 

I have Talked about this in multiple threads, I think Moash is being set up to, at the least, be Odiums new champion. Personally I think he will end up holding the Odium Shard. He makes a great villain. I don't think there is any other character in the books that has caused so many mixed feelings. I just love to hate him. I want to see Kal kill him them give him the bridge 4 salute, while Lopen gives him his new 2 handed salute. But I want all that to happen at the end of book 5 or 10.

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I love referencing this WoB so i'll do it again...

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kalamitous_emoashions [PENDING REVIEW]

Have we seen any evidence of Hemalurgy on Roshar? And, as sort of an addendum, given the end of Oathbringer, was what happened to Jezrien Hemalurgy?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

There are certain cosmere philosophers that would count it. I would divide it as two separate things that are using similar fundamentals. I wouldn't call it myself, but there are people who would disagree with me in-world. Have we seen evidence? I would say no evidence that is easy to pick out.

kalamitous_emoashions [PENDING REVIEW]

But it's there?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Yes, there are people with Hemalurgy who have been to Roshar. I'm pretty sure they've been on-screen.

 

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@Messremb I do think that Moash is being set up to be an arch antagonist, whether that's Odium's new champion or something else entirely remains to be seen.

@signspace13 started a really cool thread about another possible use for Moash Vyre, a corrupted Herald:

 

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2 hours ago, Calderis said:

Jezrien is truly gone for good. 

I think this is akin to breaking the seals in WoT. Without the Heralds and the old Oathpact being removed there is no way to move forwards. I think, by the end of SA5, or maybe SA10 we will see a different kind of Oathpact, if it is even called that. Or something entirely else paving the way for a Cosmere conclusion. 

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On 06/01/2018 at 7:51 AM, hoiditthroughthegrapevine said:

@Messremb I do think that Moash is being set up to be an arch antagonist, whether that's Odium's new champion or something else entirely remains to be seen.

@signspace13 started a really cool thread about another possible use for Moash Vyre, a corrupted Herald:

 

Thanks for the shout out! 

My theory on the nature of the Heralds is a different thing altogether. 

I believe that Ishar went to honor after the first desolation of the singers, it had likely been a long time as humans had managed to take over Roshar by this point through their own desolations, but after they took over they turned away from Odium and his parasitic nature over time, leading to the ten kingdom's.

So after facing a pyrrhic victory against the new voidbringers Ishar knew they needed to stop the war, so he went to Honor and the made the Oathpact, a pact that turned each of the ten into a splinter of honor, allowing them to persist after death in the cognitive realm, (something established in Secret history) by aligning them to the ten different forms of honor (how much cultivation had a hand in this is unknown, but I'm willing to believe that at least the initial Oathpact did not involve her).

After being aligned the investiture they were granted to represent their form of honour manifested as the Honorblades, it was this investiture that investiture that prevented the voidbringers from leaving Braize, forming a barrier made of the 10 Honor blades, however of one of the Heralds broke to torture and summoned his blade to fight back, then the next desolation would begin.

What the heralds did in the 'last' desolation was simply leave that barrier one sword wide, never 'fortifying' it further with their own blades, this left either the most honorable (or perhaps just the most stubborn) of them to stop the gap alone, and he did so flawlessly for 4500 years.

How the heralds get new bodies upon the desolation is beyond me, they may have to find vessels or something, or they May just form one, we haven't been given enough information yet.

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I'm personally seeing the move by Odium to find the Heralds and shank them to be an attempt to break the Oathpact completely, and prevent Jasnah's proposed strategy of "Find the Herald's, then Kill them" from being effective.  As they are Cognitive Shadows, doing something weird by being in the physical realm, not unlike the Returned they can't die the traditional way right?  They go to Braize and stay there until one of them breaks, then come back in shiny new bodies.

 

But by trapping them in gems, they can't go back to Braize.  So if Odium manages to do this to all Heralds, none of them can fulfill the Oathpact.  The door to Braize and the ancient, really crazy singers remains open. Perpetually.  Mix that with the Everstorm, and you have a never ending Desolation.  Which seems to be the exact result Odium would want.  No Heralds, no Oathpact, and an army of Singers that are essentially as unkillable as the Cylons as long as they have a constant stream of new bodies to download into.  Scary stuff.

 

As for the Heralds themselves, the Stormfather and Ash gave us more info about them than we've ever had before.  The Heralds knew Hoid when he was going around as Midius.  Ash cursed by Adonalsium's name.  These Cognitive shadows, however they are persisting, are old, which we knew.  But they are potentially older still than the conflict on Roshar.  They know about the shattering!  Granted, as Cosmere aware CSs, it is possible that Hoid and/or Tanavast gave them Cosmere 101 before they formed the Oathpact, but still.  They know things.

Final thought.  Man, my structure is terrible here.  Three disjointed ideas with no decent transitions.  Ugh.  Anyway - Cognitive shadows need something to staple themselves to bodies.  Not necessarily their own (more on that in the spoilers), and it in somehow relates to the planet's Investiture type.

Spoiler

Nalthis - Returned - CSs stapled to their own bodies by an epic Breath from endowment.  Can shapeshift in a limited fashion, and require a consistent amount of investiture to survive.

Scadrial - Kelsier - Theorized Hemalurgically stapled to a body.  Unconfirmed, but the spike seems a little telling.  Method of transfer into a given spike, or set of spikes is unknown, but likely aided by Spook post Catacendre.  Unlikely to be his original body, as that was eaten.

Roshar - the Fused - They inhabit a gemheart and forcibly conquer the body in a parasitic fashion.  I don't believe they are officially confirmed as Cognitive Shadows, but it tracks.  Like a certain being helped to stick around by Fuzz, they were extended protection by Odium allowing them to persist as Shadows, known as spren here.  We see this when, at the Thaylen city battle, one of them mouths off to Odium about serving a human, and Odium offers to withdraw the protection allowing him to persist.  Their host body can be killed conventially if they don't have access to Voidlight healing (see Moash killing Leshwii), a shardblade through the spine/neck/head, or something breaking the gemheart in which they reside.  See also: Kaladin stabbing the gemhearts in Kholinar and Thaylen city, and Amaram's artificial gemheart. This leads to:

Roshar - The Heralds, and Jezrien's 'death' -  I think Tanavast did something like Fuzz and Rayse to the Heralds to allow them to persist, and I think the Heralds have gemhearts.  I think, each time they return, they Soulcast new bodies for themselves around a gemstone that they then inhabit (I don't think they would do the parasite-murder of the fused, so this seems like a solid route to take, but I don't know how an essentially bodiless spren of a Herald returning would be able to Soulcast.  Clear flaw in my thought).  I think this because there must be a way for them to attach to a body, and gemhearts  seem to be the way to go on Roshar.  I also think this because of Moash stabbing Jezrien up through the abdomen into the heart area, where a gemheart would be, before sucking him into the sapphire cage on the blade.

 

I have no real evidence to prove any of this.  Mostly just feelings and conjecture.

 

TL/DR: Odium's goal with Herald assassinations is a Desolation without end. The heralds may not be as old as the shattering, but they are close.  The Heralds inhabit masterfully soulcast artificial bodies built around gemhearts to house them.

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