[OB] A new Herald?

[signspace13]

This is a theory founded on Moash's last acts in Oathbringer, and built considering that Odium is in desperate need of a champion that cannot lose.

The theory is really pretty simple; What if Odium had Moash kill Jezrien, and gives him Jezriens sword, not just for the sake of killing him or for poetic symbolism, but because he intends to have Moash take Jezriens place in the Oathpact? Becoming a man that can be killed Physically only to be sent to 'damnation' with the only way out being the conscious act of betraying mankind (something Moash seems all too comfortable with)? The main queries for this theory are both how and why Odium would do this.

The how could be done in a few ways, using the knife that killed jezrien as a hemalurgic spike is the most messy and obvious, the gem on the knife might also be used for this, or might also have its own purpose. The next is somehow having Moash absorb Jezrien's soul and meld with it, making them basically the same individual, and thus making Moash=Jezrien=Herald, if you guys can think of other ways that this may be achieved than please explain, I would love to hear your theories.

The why is also rather simple, Odium needs a champion, and he needs one that cannot lose, he had a planned in place for this already, Dalinar fusing with the thrill entirely would have given him an unstoppable force for battle and ruthless tactics, undefeatable in combat through sheer skill, knowledge, and decisiveness. This theory suggests a back up plan, a champion that is an immovable object, if he can jury rig Moash into a Herald than that gives him both an immortal champion and someone to always hold the door open for his minions, because the only way for the ancient voidbringers to leave Damnation is for one of the Heralds to crack and manifest on Roshar to either escape or to willingly bring a desolation (the circumstances to the requirements for this are unclear, do they have to begin a desolation to manifest or does their manifestation begin the desolation?) But either way Moash could just keep coming back.

with both Jezriens soul and his sword in hand I feel like this is an interesting next step for Odium, perhaps he even intended it for Dalinar, but is using a promising new tool in his stead due to lack of options or desperation

[Blazenella]

I really like this theory, and it has some good points. It is also confirmed by Brandon that Moash used Hemalurgy, or at least partially Hemalurgy.

 

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kalamitous_emoashions [PENDING REVIEW]

Have we seen any evidence of Hemalurgy on Roshar? And, as sort of an addendum, given the end of Oathbringer, was what happened to Jezrien Hemalurgy?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

There are certain cosmere philosophers that would count it. I would divide it as two separate things that are using similar fundamentals. I wouldn't call it myself, but there are people who would disagree with me in-world. Have we seen evidence? I would say no evidence that is easy to pick out.

kalamitous_emoashions [PENDING REVIEW]

But it's there?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Yes, there are people with Hemalurgy who have been to Roshar. I'm pretty sure they've been on-screen.

 

Also with Odium doing the same to Dalinar, I will reference this quote...

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"He felt each death like a spike driven into his soul." - Dalinar facing Odium

This sounds like Odium doing some funny stuff with Dalinars Spirit Web.

I like the idea of Moash being a Hemalurgic Herald/Fused thing, and someone with knowledge being like "Guys just take the spike out..."

[pi_rho_man]

Besides Hoid, who would have the knowledge to just take the darn spike out?

Maybe he'll make some vague hint to Shallan after being impaled in the head during some battle. "Beware all people that have strange metal spikes sticking out of their head."  "Even you?"  "Yes.  Even me."

[Leuthie]

As far as I understand it, hemalurgy requires the piercing of one Physical entity to remove a piece of its Spirit Web and the subsequent piercing of another Physical entity to place that piece into the its Spirit Web.  Without both components, the action is simply using the same Cosmere fundamentals that Hemalurgy is built on.  It's like saying someone is playing football every time you see them kick anything

[signspace13]

2 minutes ago, pi_rho_man said:

Besides Hoid, who would have the knowledge to just take the darn spike out?

Maybe he'll make some vague hint to Shallan after being impaled in the head during some battle. "Beware all people that have strange metal spikes sticking out of their head."  "Even you?"  "Yes.  Even me."

I wonder if the spike would even be permanently necessary, perhaps just shoving the spike into him and letting it bond with his soulweb would to the job, no need for spikes in subsequent reincarnations, maybe the next step is to just kill him with the spike.

[Kaleid]

1 hour ago, signspace13 said:

someone to always hold the door open for his minions, because the only way for the ancient voidbringers to leave Damnation is for one of the Heralds to crack and manifest on Roshar

 

The Everstorm already does this

[signspace13]

2 minutes ago, Kaleid said:

 

The Everstorm already does this

It does, but Odium strikes me as someone who likes redundancies, you can never have too many back up plans, and can't be out played if you are already planning for your own failure.

Edited January 4, 2018 by signspace13

[RShara]

The problem with Hemalurgy in this instance is that it requires intent.  You have to be stabbing something with the intention of stealing part of their soul, otherwise nothing happens.

[signspace13]

 

2 minutes ago, RShara said:

The problem with Hemalurgy in this instance is that it requires intent.  You have to be stabbing something with the intention of stealing part of their soul, otherwise nothing happens.

True, but perhaps the intent that was needed in this case was the intent to kill a god? It seems like the knife itself might have had the intent of stealing something from Jezrien as it killed him.

[Fulminato]

odium is binded by the power of honor and cultivation, the oathpact is a component, remove all the heralds will destroy, o at least huge weakened that cage, 

“Killing us won’t free you, will it?” Dalinar said. “You could rule us or destroy us, but either way, you’d still be trapped here.”

[Weltall]

21 minutes ago, signspace13 said:

True, but perhaps the intent that was needed in this case was the intent to kill a god? It seems like the knife itself might have had the intent of stealing something from Jezrien as it killed him.

No, Brandon has said that you actually need to intend to create a spike, not just to kill, otherwise it would be theoretically possible for 'accidental hemalurgy' to happen and Brandon has said this isn't something that could happen. You could argue that Odium was able to provide the Intent in the same way that Ruin did, but there's no evidence yet that Odium knows enough about how hemalurgy works to supply what's needed. And while in-universe philosophers would argue otherwise, Brandon himself says that what Moash did wasn't hemalurgy, though it uses a similar fundamental.

My own guess is that the knife ripped out Jezrien's soul (or at least the bit of his spiritweb that linked him to the other Heralds and bound him to the Oathpact, assuming it could be isolated) and trapped it in the gemstone, but it doesn't have the property of transferring that soul to someone else like a hemalurgic spike would. As long as Jezrien's soul or fragment thereof is stuck in that sapphire, he's out of the equation, the Oathpact is consequently weakened and Odium has what he wants.

[Fourth Of The Night]

1 minute ago, Weltall said:

No, Brandon has said that you actually need to intend to create a spike, not just to kill, otherwise it would be theoretically possible for 'accidental hemalurgy' to happen and Brandon has said this isn't something that could happen.

 

38 minutes ago, RShara said:

The problem with Hemalurgy in this instance is that it requires intent.  You have to be stabbing something with the intention of stealing part of their soul, otherwise nothing happens.

Wait, but that doesn't make any sense because of 

Mistborn Spoilers

Spoiler

A spike is accidentally created when Spook is stabbed through a Thug and the sword-tip breaks off inside of him.

Are there WoB's about the intent stuff? That's really confusing to me, because of the Mistborn spoiler I posted.

[SpeakoftheDeval]

2 minutes ago, Fourth Of The Night said:

 

Wait, but that doesn't make any sense because of 

Mistborn Spoilers

  Reveal hidden contents

A spike is accidentally created when Spook is stabbed through a Thug and the sword-tip breaks off inside of him.

Are there WoB's about the intent stuff? That's really confusing to me, because of the Mistborn spoiler I posted.

I assumed that was a case of Ruin providing the intent

[signspace13]

1 minute ago, Fourth Of The Night said:

 

Wait, but that doesn't make any sense because of 

Mistborn Spoilers

  Hide contents

A spike is accidentally created when Spook is stabbed through a Thug and the sword-tip breaks off inside of him.

Are there WoB's about the intent stuff? That's really confusing to me, because of the Mistborn spoiler I posted.

1

an interesting point but did do you consider...

Mistborn spoiler

Spoiler

That the thug himself is spiked and the intent to create one is coming from ruin?

I see this as an interesting flaw in the theory but not insurmountable, the intent for Hemalurgy could come from a whole bunch of place and perhaps the person who made the knife knew what it was intended for and his intent to "make a knife that steals souls" is enough. 

[Weltall]

3 minutes ago, Fourth Of The Night said:

Are there WoB's about the intent stuff? That's really confusing to me, because of the Mistborn spoiler I posted.

Yes there are, specifically for this instance.

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Questioner

Allomancy requires, you need to be either a Misting or a Mistborn to be able to do that. But Hemalurgy you just need to stab someone through the heart. So what would stop someone on Roshar from using Hemalurgy, because it's not Innate? Do you have to be in proximity to Ruin?

Brandon Sanderson

Intent is a big part of a lot of the magics, including Hemalurgy, meaning that you need to know what you're doing. Or somebody needs to-- There needs to be Intent involved in what's happening to you.

Questioner

So like with Spook when he got spiked, where was the Intent?

Brandon Sanderson

The person who was driving that spike was being influenced by Ruin, and the Intent was there.

Questioner

So unless you knew what you were trying to do with a Hemalurgic spike, you couldn't do Hemalurgy?

Brandon Sanderson

You could not steal attributes no.

 

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Questioner

Does Hemalurgy require intent to steal the stuff? Or could somebody in theory just stab through in the exact-- I understand the chances are extremely slim, it's like accupuncture ...happen by accident?

Brandon Sanderson

Here's the thing, you've seen it happen without the intent of the person holding the spike.

Questioner

But I think it's commonly accepted that Ruin was sort of manipulating some-- I'm specifically taking the Spook example off the table, I'm just saying, someone by accident stab - whoops! stab - whoops! and have a power?

Brandon Sanderson

Again, Ruin was involved in that. Every spike-- spiking that you saw had Ruin's intent behind it.

 

[Kaleid]

From those WoBs, it sounds to me that whilst intent is important, it is not necessarily the person holding the blade whose intent matters.

If the spike is in the form of a knife, does that mean that hemalurgy won't work? No - the knife is just the weapon, or delivery system of the spike.

If Odium sends someone to stab someone else with a blade, does that mean that hemalurgy won't work? No - the Moash is just the weapon, or delivery system of the spike.

 

Perhaps in this instance it is the intent of Odium that matters, as he is the one using Moash as a tool.

[Angsos]

But we know from Era 2 that someone else knows hemalurgy.

[RShara]

39 minutes ago, Kaleid said:

From those WoBs, it sounds to me that whilst intent is important, it is not necessarily the person holding the blade whose intent matters.

If the spike is in the form of a knife, does that mean that hemalurgy won't work? No - the knife is just the weapon, or delivery system of the spike.

If Odium sends someone to stab someone else with a blade, does that mean that hemalurgy won't work? No - the Moash is just the weapon, or delivery system of the spike.

 

Perhaps in this instance it is the intent of Odium that matters, as he is the one using Moash as a tool.

But the person who does the stabbing has to be influenced to the point where there is enough intent for the spike to steal the ability.  As in, Ruin was guiding the hand, and getting the mind to think in a certain way.

We saw no sign of that happening with Moash, and we see it from his PoV.  No whispering in his mind, no, "Stab him right there" or anything like that.

Here is the description Marsh gave of spiking Penrod.  I left out the parts where Marsh is musing.

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Marsh didn't know them all; Ruin would guide his hand when the time came to strike, making sure the spike was delivered to the right place.His master's direct attention was focused elsewhere at the moment, and he was giving Marsh general commands to get into position and prepare for the attack.

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Marsh waited for Ruin to come to him in force. Not only would the spike have to be planted precisely, but Penrod would have to leave it in long enough for Ruin to begin influencing his thoughts and emotions.

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Ruin came upon him, and he lost control of his body. He moved without knowing what he was going to do, following direct orders. Down the corridor. Don't attack the guards. In through the door.

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Fight him, Ruin said, but do not kill him. Make it a difficult battle, but allow him to feel that he's holding you off.

It was an odd request, but Marsh's mind was so directly controlled that he couldn't even pause to think about it. He could simply leap forward to attack.

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Now, Ruin said. Act frightened, get ready to put the spike in, and prepare to flee out the window.

Marsh tapped speed and moved. Ruin guided his hand precisely as he slammed his left hand into Penrod's chest, driving the spike directly into the man's heart. Marsh heard Penrod scream, smiled at the sound, and leaped out the window.

So being guided by Ruin was a very careful and specific method.  Not very subtle either.

 

Quellion, the man who stabbed Spook, was influenced similarly:
 

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Spook turned away from the burning city as something caught his attention. Quellion was reaching out with his good arm, reaching toward . . .

Toward Kelsier.

"Please," Quellion whispered. It seemed as if he could see the Survivor, though nobody else around them could. "My lord Kelsier, why have you forsaken me?"

Quote

But Spook wasn't listening. He ripped Quellion's shirt, looking at the shoulder and chest. There was nothing odd about either. The Citizen's upper arm, however, had a length of metal piercing it. It appeared to be bronze. Hand shaking, Spook pulled the metal free. Quellion screamed.

So it needs pretty active guidance and pinpoint accuracy in order to work as a hemalurgic spike.

Edited January 4, 2018 by RShara

[Fourth Of The Night]

Thanks for those WoB's, everyone! It all makes sense, now!

[Bort]

We seem to be overlooking one thing here. Spikes worked on Scadrial because the maic system there was based around metals. When Brandon said that similar principles to Hemalurgy were used, I think the knife was just a conduit to draw at least part of Jezrien's soul into the gemstone.

Now, maybe Moash has to swallow it, a la Amaram, to acquire whatever it bestows.

[signspace13]

I personally believe that hemalurgy is not the only way that this can be achieved, fabrials and forging also come to mind as possibilities, though I am more interested in the discussion of the repercussions of this Act than to the rest of the world than only the possibility of a single step to achieve it.

[RShara]

1 hour ago, Bort said:

We seem to be overlooking one thing here. Spikes worked on Scadrial because the maic system there was based around metals. When Brandon said that similar principles to Hemalurgy were used, I think the knife was just a conduit to draw at least part of Jezrien's soul into the gemstone.

Now, maybe Moash has to swallow it, a la Amaram, to acquire whatever it bestows.

Hemalurgy works everywhere 

[.S.A.M.K.M]

Creating anti heralds.

[Kaleid]

12 minutes ago, RShara said:

Hemalurgy works everywhere 

 

Isn't hemalurgy of ruin in the same way that allomancy is of preservation, and feruchemy is of them both?

[signspace13]

Just now, Kaleid said:

 

Isn't hemalurgy of ruin in the same way that allomancy is of preservation, and feruchemy is of them both?

Indeed, but when ruin created it he did not care who did the destroying or where, so long as it is being done intentionally, this makes the laws of hemalurgy basically universally available to be used with any magic system anywhere by anyone, so long as they know what they are doing.