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My problem with Navani


Matt O

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At first glance, Navani seems like a cool character... aggressively pursues (and gets) what she wants and is a geek when it comes to fabrial design.

My problem is, I don't believe that these two personality traits can co-exist.

I've done some study of personalities, and while I am hardly an expert, here's my take:

The type of personality that would be a geek about fabrial design is by nature introverted and still, someone like Steris who is motivated by structure and making things better.

The personality that Navani has, the one that is clearly extroverted, high motion, and take charge, would likely not be interested in geeky things like Steris would be.  She'd be more about _doing_ things, exploring, adventure.

This is why I start to lose the illusion that the books provide when Navani starts expressing interest in fabrials.  I just don't believe it.  It's not her.

If Steris was improving fabrials, I'd be nodding my head in agreement.  That is totally something she'd do and excel at.  Unfortunately, Steris likely will never get a chance to tinker with a fabrial :)

Jasnah is someone else who is more introverted and would be more believable as a fabrial geek.

Thoughts? :)

 

Edited by Matt O
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I offer myself as an example of said traits coexisting. I'm: deeply detailed, engineer, nerdy, notice everything, focused and inventive. However, all people who know me call me an extroverted, in-charge, deep-plotting, never-lose-my-temper, find-a-way-to-accomplish-the-mission kind of guy. If Navani were strong enough to hold her own on the battlefield, I would be the most like her of all the SA characters.

However, in defense of what the OP wrote, I am told I am the exception to most peoples' expectations and stereotypes. But we are here... despite personality studies, so watch out!

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12 hours ago, Kaymyth said:

I have friends who take pedantic nerdery to levels previously unseen by mortal beings who are also exhaustingly extroverted people. They do exist. Navani is not at all unusual, and definitely not impossible. :)

This. Very much this.

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On 1/3/2018 at 1:38 PM, Matt O said:

The type of personality that would be a geek about fabrial design is by nature introverted and still, someone like Steris who is motivated by structure and making things better.

The personality that Navani has, the one that is clearly extroverted, high motion, and take charge, would likely not be interested in geeky things like Steris would be.  She'd be more about _doing_ things, exploring, adventure.

This is a woman who was the queen, and then queen mother(dowager queen). That's part of why her outward appearance is like you describe it. But people are not the same person around the general public, their friends, their job, or their hobbies. Each area brings out a fragment of their overall personality, and 1stBondsmith offered themself as a good example of this.

On 1/3/2018 at 1:38 PM, Matt O said:

The type of personality that would be a geek about fabrial design is by nature introverted and still. The personality that Navani has, would be more about _doing_ things, exploring, adventure.

Fabrial-Tech is very much "doing things," and exploring. Fabrials involve capturing Spren in gemstones, which seems like something that would qualify as "doing things," not to mention exploration(of a sort) to find new types of Spren for new Fabrials. Exploration/Adventure of another sort is the entire concept of discovery and research.

Fabrials are like Aons, which are much more involved in the real world. This isn't some science experiment you do in a lab, some of these things are only really useful in the real world. Case in point, the Attractor Fabrial Navani "unveils" near the end of WoR to deal with the rain. Testing out her inventions certainly feels like she's "doing something," not to mention the adventurous side of testing and success/failure.

On 1/3/2018 at 1:38 PM, Matt O said:

The personality that Navani has, the one that is clearly extroverted, high motion, and take charge, would likely not be interested in geeky things

You'd be surprised what hobbies people have in their free time. Her take charge personality is still there, since she's the Head Artifabrian. Her physically adventurous side may have been clipped by her Queenly duties, the same way Eshonai's was clipped by her military duties. Inquisitive/Adventurous minds always find something to explore, and Navani found Fabrials. (I could draw comparisons to some fantasy authors too, creating worlds for them to explore when they couldn't explore the real one.)

Quoth Vocabulary.com: "Introverts sometimes avoid large groups of people, feeling more energized by time alone. The opposite of an introvert is an extrovert, who finds energy in interactions with others." Interactions with others is entirely possible within any variant of a community, be it local, professional, scientific, or otherwise. That one student or co-worker who's always up for group projects? They'd be an extrovert, regardless of what the subject of those projects may be(or how "geeky" that subject may be).

I don't see anything preventing Navani from being interesting in Fabrial-Tech because she's extroverted. I simply do not see it.

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2 hours ago, Matt O said:

Dang... no one agrees with me or sees my point.  I feel so alone. *sobs*

 

Sorry, dude. It was a very...daring assertion, which unfortunately doesn't hold up in the light. People are just too complex to put into stereotype boxes, and Sanderson is well-established as a writer who enjoys breaking and subverting tropes.

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59 minutes ago, Kaymyth said:

Sorry, dude. It was a very...daring assertion, which unfortunately doesn't hold up in the light. People are just too complex to put into stereotype boxes, and Sanderson is well-established as a writer who enjoys breaking and subverting tropes.

I admit, I'm kinda baffled.

I don't know if I presented my argument in an ineffective way, or triggered people in some way, but I feel like what I've said hasn't been fairly considered.

Gonna try again and risk bringing wrath upon me :)

I'm a professional software developer, same age as Mr. Sanderson.

I went to college to get a degree in computer science.  I've been employed in computer science related jobs for the last 20 years.

It is true that extroverted people are in this field, but I would say that it is definitely uncommon.  I remember working with one guy from 1997-1999 who was quite extroverted, well liked in the company, and very smart, very into computers.  We'll call him person #1.

Another good friend of mine (who shared a common interest in video games) worked with me from about 2005-2014 or so.  He was very extroverted, very smart, very funny, everyone liked him, and he was a very good software developer.  We'll call him person #2.

I also have four kids.  My oldest is introverted, quiet, serious, and more interested in collecting toys (and hanging out with people who have the same interests) and avoids crowds and loud noises.  He has very few friends.  He's 11.  My second oldest is extroverted and fiery with a personality that I imagine Navani to have.  She is a natural leader, is quite popular at school, always has one or two friends over at our house to play.  She's 8.  I'll use her as person #3.

Person #1, like I said, is very smart, interested in computers, but I would say that his main priority is socializing with people more than doing Awesome Things with a computer.  He is a talker, likes to have fun, likes to hang out with groups of people.

Person #2 is brilliant and funny.  He is a natural leader and (when I worked with him) got promoted to leadership positions fairly easily.  His weakness was losing interest in projects quickly and being impatient.  He would intentionally try to get moved around from project to project on a regular basis, never wanting to keep working on the same thing for very long.  He recently left the company because there was nothing new and interesting to move to in his opinion.

Person #3 (my daughter)'s strength is that she relentlessly acts to get what she wants.  She wants to be a rock star, singing in front of crowds of people.  I'm not sure what it is about her, but she is very popular at school.  When I try to teach her anything _in depth_ about a subject, she will grow bored and want to move onto new things.  She doesn't have the attention span to dig deep.  Now granted, she is 8 so this is part of being her age.

Now there's me.  I'm naturally introverted, prefer to engage people one on one on a deeper emotional level rather than being in a big group where people are just discussing superficial topics (like sports).  I take on massively impractical projects with huge goals and then work relentlessly, sometimes for literally years, becoming an expert at something, in order to reach my goal.  I only specialize in a few areas, but the areas that I do specialize in, I achieve Awesome results (relative to what I'd achieve if I kept bouncing around like person #2 does).  I literally don't have time to do Awesome things _and_ spend a lot of time socializing with friends.  The only people I talk to on a deeper emotional level are my wife, and my kids.  The only other people I sometimes talk to are the guys at work.  It's not that I hate other people, it's just that I've realized that if I want to achieve my dreams, I have to sacrifice something, and so I sacrifice being friends with tons of people (which I'm not really interested in anyway).

Let's contrast this with person #1, #2, and #3. Person #1 is employed as a software developer, but in his spare time, he is hanging out with friends and family.  He doesn't have time to do Awesome things with computers (beyond his day job) because he is spending his spare time with people.  Person #2 is too impatient to focus on one area long enough to do Awesome things.  He'd rather bounce around to new and interesting stuff, and get other people to specialize.  Person #3.. well.. it's my daughter and she's too young so maybe she's not a good example.

I sincerely believe that with the limited amount of time we have in our lives, if someone is going to do something Awesome* like finding the cure for cancer, making faster computer CPUs, or designing rockets for a space shuttle, or be at the cutting edge of fabrial innovation, they are going to have to dedicate a substantial amount of their free time to doing research at the cost of socializing with other human beings.

Why do I list all of these things?

It's because Navani's character is cheating.

She is like person #2 in that she is in a leadership position.  She was married to a king, and deals with monarchs from other nations as pretty much a Full Time Job.  This means that she literally cannot have time to become an expert in a field such as fabrials... Unless there is some unspoken rule to the world/culture where people only need a smaller percentage of sleep and the whole society all takes a significant amount of time per day doing research (hehe).

Now I could buy it if her part-time job is being in charge of a team of fabrial experts and driving them to achieve a common goal.  This would seem more realistic for her.

But having her herself be an extremely talented scientist?  As I recall, in book 2, there is a sketch of some kind of flying device that she personally came up with.  This is just unrealistic.  A queen/leader doesn't have time to specialize enough to achieve this level of expertise.  That's my gripe here.

A few people mentioned stereotypes.  I can assure you that being in the software development industry, these are not just stereotypes.  The extroverted personalities end up being put in leadership positions, directing teams of people on what to do.  The people who do the actual coding are almost always introverted, quiet, and with no desire to be in charge of other people.  That doesn't mean that they are single, living in their parents' basements.  (they are almost all happily married with families, but just with no drive to be in leadership positions)

The only other possibility is that Navani is a super-human genius who is naturally good at everything.  Or stated differently, Navani is like a combination of Steve Wozniak and Steve Jobs.

* - in case you are wondering, I believe that Mr. Sanderson has achieved a level of Awesomeness as evidenced by his ability to write the incredible books that he churns out.  I know that he goes to book signings and speaks in front of crowds, but I would bet money that he'd consider himself an introvert if someone asked.

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Matt, I'm not a software developer, but I did get a degree in Computer Science and I have five kids. I'm also approximately the same age as you. I think there are some faulty assumptions in your assertions that Navani is an extrovert. Sure she is out and about, but I think she gets her energy from being with her close group, Dalinar and close family. I think she is a strong woman, I think she is forceful, but this does not imply extroversion. These two qualities are often commingled, but I don't believe introverts and being strong and forceful are mutually exclusive. 

I am an introvert, I have a strong drive to be in leadership positions. (I didn't know I was an introvert until a recent personality test...then I asked my wife and she confirmed it). I love leading people, but I still need to recharge around my core group. I don't believe that leadership and introversion are mutually exclusive either. 

I do think that Navani is much more complex than the snippets that we have gotten to see. We have not delved into that character, and we saw some of that in OB. [minor OB spoiler: part 1]

Spoiler

During the wedding ceremony when the Stormfather is discussing oaths with her.

I think this complexity is exciting to read about and I think it is what sets Sanderson so far above his peers. He really delves into the character development without sacrificing the plot. His characters are real and robust, they are full of life and you could reach out and touch them through the page. I felt that Dalinar was the least realistic until OB and it just solidifies the "man of extremes" that he claims to be. Navani is not plastic and she is not a psychological stereotype, but that does not make her less believable (I wrote "real" here first and then realized the irony of that statement). 

I think BS does not like to place people in a box, and he does that very well, I think Navani is an excellent example with this. 

On the flip side, Navani also claims to only be the patroness of the scholars. She is not the artifabrian, but rather she likes all the gadgets that they produce and she parades them around. So, maybe she fits your stereotype after all.

CJ

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On 1/3/2018 at 11:38 AM, Matt O said:

At first glance, Navani seems like a cool character... aggressively pursues (and gets) what she wants and is a geek when it comes to fabrial design.

My problem is, I don't believe that these two personality traits can co-exist.

I've done some study of personalities, and while I am hardly an expert, here's my take:

The type of personality that would be a geek about fabrial design is by nature introverted and still, someone like Steris who is motivated by structure and making things better.

The personality that Navani has, the one that is clearly extroverted, high motion, and take charge, would likely not be interested in geeky things like Steris would be.  She'd be more about _doing_ things, exploring, adventure.

This is why I start to lose the illusion that the books provide when Navani starts expressing interest in fabrials.  I just don't believe it.  It's not her.

If Steris was improving fabrials, I'd be nodding my head in agreement.  That is totally something she'd do and excel at.  Unfortunately, Steris likely will never get a chance to tinker with a fabrial :)

Jasnah is someone else who is more introverted and would be more believable as a fabrial geek.

Thoughts? :)

Good points.

But doesn't Navani say on several occasions that what she does is more just organize / finance / lead the people who are the actual geeks about fabrial design?

Don't get me wrong, Navani certainly understands fabrial design. My point isn't that she's no good at fabrial design and that she needs to hire experts who actually are.

My point is that I think what she enjoys about her fabrial projects is the leadership part, not the technical part.

When seen in that light, I believe this to be compatible with her being an extrovert.

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IMO, She isn't a scientist/engineer of fabrial design as I think you see her. 

Like others have said, she advises, and finances, and casts vision for her ardents. I see her much more as a tech company CEO, who understands tech to a degree, but couldn't actually engineer the stuff he/she wants built or designed. Leading the teams and casting the vision/goal of the work, but not actually doing the work themselves.

We each have our view of the characters, and I guess you're reading her differently than the rest of us... *shrug*, not a big deal. Unfortunately when that is the case you're not going to get a lot of "me too reactions!"

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10 hours ago, Drake Marshall said:

Good points.

But doesn't Navani say on several occasions that what she does is more just organize / finance / lead the people who are the actual geeks about fabrial design?

Don't get me wrong, Navani certainly understands fabrial design. My point isn't that she's no good at fabrial design and that she needs to hire experts who actually are.

My point is that I think what she enjoys about her fabrial projects is the leadership part, not the technical part.

When seen in that light, I believe this to be compatible with her being an extrovert.

Ah yes, I think this is more reasonable and perhaps how I should look at her going forward :)

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Boy, I hear you on the "multi-year projects" side. "Awesome, a few years from now" is far better than "above average today". But is has a big price, doesn't it? I have several projects on hold till all my kids are gone. I work on them in depth about 3-4 times a year, then back off to include my more important priorities. Just a hint though; helping you kids achieve awesome in what they want is as fulfilling as achieving awesome yourself. It just takes longer.

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@Matt O - You’ve raised a good point.

Both are slightly contradictory.  Navani is fine though.  It is Jasnah who is more.

Extroversion / Introversion is defined more around under/over stimulation.  A person who always is under stimulated will be an extrovert and vice verca.

Navani shows more of a forceful extrovert personality and surrounds herself with scholars like a principal to do the work.  So, she’s more a head principal type.

Jasnah is introverted, has had 1 ward and no other pupils and does not share easily.  We can let other bits slide, but her fashion sense does not fit.  An introvert will need less external stimulation and therefore is not impacted by a strong fashion ethic.  But Jasnah is always superbly dressed, which does not fit that well.

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I think people are forgetting that on Roshar, Alethkar at least, it is considered seemly for a woman to be fluent in the sciences. Navani was probably good with fabrials before becoming Queen.Also, how many times in the books are fabrials in use and it is commented that Navani either 'created it', or 'had a hand in it's creation'?

The ones I can think of off the top of my head are the painrial (which Navani shows off to the Kholins shortly after arriving back on the Shattered Plains in WoK), the heating fabrial (Renarin tells Kaladin that Navani made it in WoR, during a highstorm), and (OB Spoiler)

the watch she gives Dalinar in Oathbringer

.

And while there are other scholars and engineers there, she also takes an active part in the development of the floating platforms.

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On 1/7/2018 at 11:45 AM, Wax said:

@Matt O - You’ve raised a good point.

Both are slightly contradictory.  Navani is fine though.  It is Jasnah who is more.

Extroversion / Introversion is defined more around under/over stimulation.  A person who always is under stimulated will be an extrovert and vice verca.

Navani shows more of a forceful extrovert personality and surrounds herself with scholars like a principal to do the work.  So, she’s more a head principal type.

Jasnah is introverted, has had 1 ward and no other pupils and does not share easily.  We can let other bits slide, but her fashion sense does not fit.  An introvert will need less external stimulation and therefore is not impacted by a strong fashion ethic.  But Jasnah is always superbly dressed, which does not fit that well.

That's pretty interesting about Jasnah.  She does seem to want to be left alone most of the time.  So why does she care about looking amazing?

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20 minutes ago, Matt O said:

That's pretty interesting about Jasnah.  She does seem to want to be left alone most of the time.  So why does she care about looking amazing?

Personal guess, but looking impeccable makes her harder to approach, and reinforces her authority, which means that less annoying people will be bothering her, and it will be easier to impress and brush away people who do come and bother her.

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As an engineering student I can totally see where you are coming from. I would definitely included myself in the group of nerdy introverts, but I do have a friend who is just as much into engineering (and the Stormlight Archive for that matter) as I am and he is very assertive, especially with relationships. Navani is certainly outside the norm I would say, but not completely unbelievable. 

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11 hours ago, kenod said:

Personal guess, but looking impeccable makes her harder to approach, and reinforces her authority, which means that less annoying people will be bothering her, and it will be easier to impress and brush away people who do come and bother her.

 

11 hours ago, Matt O said:

So why does she care about looking amazing?

That’s the bit I don’t get.  An introverted person will tire of dressing up and looking impeccable all the time.  They’d go into a jeans and t shirt mode the moment glamour isn’t required.

Jasnah doesn’t do that.  It’s always go, go, go, travel, scheme and scholarships in a lonely pursuit while always dressed up.

So, a very contradictory introvert.

Edited by Wax
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