Szeth, the Stone Shamans, and Taln's Honorblade

[Calderis]

I've mentioned all of the parts of this "theory" (and it's tough to call it that as it's so speculative) in other places, but I figured after a discord discussion that I would consolidate it all in one place.

Part one: Szeth's History

In The Way of Kings, Szeth makes this comment in his internal monologue 

Quote

Now the rumors about him were populated with tales of holes cut through stone and dead men with burned eyes.

Makkek had begun to believe those rumors. He hadn’t yet demanded that Szeth relinquish the Blade—if he did so, he would discover the second of Szeth’s two forbidden actions. He was required to carry the Blade until his death, after which Shin Stone Shamans would recover it from whomever had killed him.

Szeth believes that in the event of his death, the shamanate will know that the blade has moved on and they will recover the blade and bring it back to Shinovar. 

I believe that Szeth is correct. Primarily, because I believe that Szeth was a part of the Shamanate before he was made Truthless. 

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/189/#e4040

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unknown

Was Vallano, Szeth's grandfather, also a Truthless? And if not, what did he do to disgrace the Shin?

Brandon Sanderson

No, Vallano was not Truthless.

Szeth was a very respected member of his society, once. There are clues to what happened in his story, but you won't hear it in full until he gets his book. (Which will include his flashbacks.)

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/127/#e5089

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Questioner

Are all Truthless given Honorblades when they're cast out, or is Szeth a special case?

Brandon Sanderson

Szeth is a special case.

So Szeth was a very respected member of his society before his sentence, and Truthless do not normally have Honorblades. Add that the Shamanate have all of the blades save Nale's and Taln's (at the start of the books) and that from Szeth's PoVs we know that Szeth has both trained in all the surges, and enjoyed the ability to use his Blade to fly without needing to kill prior to becoming Truthless, and I believe the evidence points towards him being a member of the shamanate, and the chosen guardian of Jezrien's blade.

Part Two: Taln's Blade

So, assuming that Szeth is correct, and the shamans can indeed track the Honorblades by some means, here is what I believe happened.

Taln appeared outside of Kholinar, and cut his way through the gates. He stumbles inside, and drops his Blade... And in so doing he breaks the bond to his Blade, either immediately, or as soon as someone else picks it up. 

The Honorblades function differently then Shardblades. They have a shallow bond. They also do not dissapate when dropped. So whether dropping the blade is enough to break the bond or not, the moment another person picks up the blade, and through touch it bonds to them... The bond is broken. 

At this moment, whether it's the breaking of the bond, or a new bond being forged, I think that this is what the shamanate can detect. So the shamans take flight (figuratively, most likely through the surge of transportation with the Elsecaller and Willshaper blades) shortly after to where the blade fell, and make the swap. They return to Shinovar, and are obviously aware that the newfound blade in their possession is one they've never had before. 

They've historically held all of the blades until Nale reclaimed his, and most likely have representations of what they look like. They would immediately know that this is the tenth blade that they have never held, and what precisely it means. 

Panic ensues, their entire belief structure falls into turmoil, and so when Szeth dies they don't even bother to try and retrieve Jezrien's blade. 

Part Three: Szeth's Crusade

Finally, we come to Szeth's future, and the his fourth oath. Szeth has made it clear, that his goal will be to bring justice to the Shin. He believes that he will be on a mission of retribution. 

He is unaware that to the Shamanate he has been vindicated. He should never have been Truthless. 

He will arrive, and the Shamanate as a whole will throw themselves at his feet and swear to him. They will attempt to make him their king, and proclaim him the only one to have recognized truth. 

Szeth's crusade will be thrown completely off track. It will appear that the crusade he swore cannot be completed. This is only true though, if Nale's letter of the law mentality is true. 

This chain of events will act as the vehicle for Szeth to find the balance of letter and spirit of what he is sworn to that will allow him to act as an example of what the Skybreakers should be, instead of the twisted mockery of Justice that they play at under Nale's guidance. 

I'm most likely wrong, and a number of things could occur that will tumble this fragile chain of events. I find the idea compelling though, and I strongly doubt Brandon will give us a straightforward "Szeth slaughters the Shin" storyline. 

Edited November 6, 2018 by Calderis

[Oversleep]

I agree with Part One, disagree vehemently with Part Two and think Part Three would make for a good plot.

[Spoolofwhool]

Well thought out.

[Kaleid]

Do we know why he was made truthless?

 

I recall a quote from the books which goes something along the lines that he was made truthless because the voidbringers did not exist, but that his honour demanded that they did.

 

I don't think it's to much of a stretch to assume that he was made truthless by trying to spread the word that the desolation was returning. Perhaps he even had some forewarning similar to Dalinar and Gavilar - which would made a lot of sense if he was in the ruling cast.

[RShara]

I still think this involves two major reaches that are improbable.

1.  That the Shin have a way of knowing when an Honorblade is unbound.  This has a really big assumption built in.  I find it much more likely that they are monitoring for news about Szeth and will trace the path of the Honorblade from that point.

2.  That they would confuse the Windrunner blade with the Stoneward blade with whatever tracking they have.  If there's a tracking system, it would make more sense for it to be on the blade, rather than a worldwide "Honorblade Alert! Alert!" system.  Also, Taln dropped his Honorblade, yes.  But he didn't "Unbond" it.  He's still alive and didn't dismiss it.  He's not been sane enough to try and summon it back, so we don't know if it's actually been unbonded or not.

And a couple other things that seem very difficult.

3.  I know the Shin have access to the Honorblades that confer the Transportation surge, but being able to pop in, grab and *switch* the Blade, and pop back out seems like something that would be very difficult to do.  An inside job would make a lot more sense.

4.  Where did the fake Honorblade come from?  Do the Shin have a bunch of random Shardblades hidden away too?

 

Quote

Do we know why he was made truthless?

Yeah.  He reported seeing voidspren or voidbringers.  The Shamanite decided he was wrong and made him Truthless for lying.

Edited January 3, 2018 by RShara

[Oversleep]

Szeth also mentions in Oathbringer having heard a voice in his head once.

It's possible he was bonding a spren at one point, which made him realize Desolation is coming, which caused him to be branded Truthless...

Edited January 3, 2018 by Oversleep

[Calderis]

6 minutes ago, RShara said:

1.  That the Shin have a way of knowing when an Honorblade is unbound.  This has a really big assumption built in.  I find it much more likely that they are monitoring for news about Szeth and will trace the path of the Honorblade from that point.

They don't use fabrials. They don't appear to do anything with the outside world other than trade... 

I just don't see it. 

7 minutes ago, RShara said:

2.  That they would confuse the Windrunner blade with the Stoneward blade with whatever tracking they have.  If there's a tracking system, it would make more sense for it to be on the blade, rather than a worldwide "Honorblade Alert! Alert!" system.  Also, Taln dropped his Honorblade, yes.  But he didn't "Unbond" it.  He's still alive and didn't dismiss it.  He's not been sane enough to try and summon it back, so we don't know if it's actually been unbonded or not.

I don't think it's targeting an individual blade, but rather the connection between the Honorblades themselves. The were all connected to Honor, and all grant surgebinding abilities. I don't think it's beyond plausibility for them to have knowledge of the surged well enough to use one of the other blades to locate them all as a group, rather than as an individual blade. I think to whatever mechanism they're using, an Honorblade is an Honorblade. 

And why does he need to unbond his Blade? It's not a Shardblade. It doesn't work the same way. The bond is shallow enough to form on touch, which means no week of bonding like a dead blade. Why would it take any more time or effort to break a bond that shallow that  it does to make it? 

12 minutes ago, RShara said:

3. I know the Shin have access to the Honorblades that confer the Transportation surge, but being able to pop in, grab and *switch* the Blade, and pop back out seems like something that would be very difficult to do.  An inside job would make a lot more sense.

4.  Where did the fake Honorblade come from?  Do the Shin have a bunch of random Shardblades hidden away too?

An inside job would also require knowledge that this was an Honorblade, because to most people, switching one Shardblade for another is pointless. 

And why is the concept of Shardblades in Shinovar implausible? 

[RShara]

If they don't have fabrials, what are they using to find the Honorblades?  What mechanism?

The second two I changed to "difficult" instead of "implausible". 

 

There are a number of parties on Roshar that are aware of Heralds and the likelihood of an incoming Desolation.  Having someone pop up with a Shardblade that doesn't disappear automatically, who proclaims himself Talenelat'Elin, Herald of the Almighty, would certainly raise a number of suspicions.  Enough to have someone switch out the Blades for a number of reasons.  Candidates could range from the Ghostbloods, Ishar, any of the other non-completely-insane-Heralds, the 17th Shard, the Sleepless, or even Cultivation, since she apparently had hold of NB at some point.

 

The Shin feel even using Stormlight is blasphemous.  They likely know that Shardblades are dead spren.  It's not a huge leap to assume that they also feel Shardblades are blasphemous.  Szeth certainly never mentions any other Shardblades in his PoVs, and he mentions the Honorblades several times.

 

Edited January 3, 2018 by RShara

[MonsterMetroid]

45 minutes ago, RShara said:

I still think this involves two major reaches that are improbable.

1.  That the Shin have a way of knowing when an Honorblade is unbound.  This has a really big assumption built in.  I find it much more likely that they are monitoring for news about Szeth and will trace the path of the Honorblade from that point.

2.  That they would confuse the Windrunner blade with the Stoneward blade with whatever tracking they have.  If there's a tracking system, it would make more sense for it to be on the blade, rather than a worldwide "Honorblade Alert! Alert!" system.  Also, Taln dropped his Honorblade, yes.  But he didn't "Unbond" it.  He's still alive and didn't dismiss it.  He's not been sane enough to try and summon it back, so we don't know if it's actually been unbonded or not

I agree it is a bit of a reach... but one thing has been bugging me.

Roshar has 3 shards. Two of which were there for super long and invested in planet roshar.

Scadrial has 2 shards

Roshar has 1, maybe 2, possibly 3 magic systems if you count fabriels

Scadrial has 3

I feel like there is some magic systems we are missing on roshar... and one of them might be what stone shamans have access to.

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A shaman (/ˈʃɑːmən/ SHAH-men or /ˈʃeɪmən/ SHAY-mən) is someone who is regarded as having access to, and influence in, the world of benevolent and malevolent spirits, who typically enters into a trance state during a ritual, and practices divination and healing.

source

We have assumed them to be some sort of religious leaders only but maybe they have a source of power as well. After all Shin is a really different place from teh rest of the world and I bet it is in the cognitive realm too and thus spiritual realm as well.

And the fact that divination is in that description... sounds like fortune sight to me which could help get taln's blade

[RShara]

2 minutes ago, MonsterMetroid said:

And the fact that divination is in that description... sounds like fortune sight to me which could help get taln's blade

Something that lets them find Taln's blade, in the mistaken belief that it's the Windrunner blade?

And that hadn't let them pinpoint and steal back the Skybreaker blade for all these centuries?

Edited January 3, 2018 by RShara

[MonsterMetroid]

2 minutes ago, RShara said:

Something that lets them find Taln's blade, in the mistaken belief that it's the Windrunner blade?

I'm not sure exactly how future sight works, and how much clarity there is... but from renarin's decriptions probably not. But it would let them get the blade not neccessarily mistake it though I imagine.

Edited January 3, 2018 by MonsterMetroid
Fat fingering

[.S.A.M.K.M]

The stone shamans has to collect a blade, as truthless did technically die. So will they go for the one stolen from bridge four, believed to be in odium hands, the hidden blade of taln or possibly both. The shamans might believe all honor blades should be in their keeping. 

I wonder if they are aware of nale. Imagine if they tried to take his blade, they likely have some kind of arrangement/relationship. One only known to senior leadership.

[Calderis]

21 minutes ago, MonsterMetroid said:

Roshar has 3 shards. Two of which were there for super long and invested in planet roshar.

Scadrial has 2 shards

Roshar has 1, maybe 2, possibly 3 magic systems if you count fabriels

Scadrial has 3

I feel like there is some magic systems we are missing on roshar... and one of them might be what stone shamans have access to.

I disagree with this and here's why. 

On Roshar, you have a preexisting magic system in the nature of the world, and every magic system we've seen uses some variant of this. A bond with a spren to create an effect. The systems are different, but they are bound to expand upon what already exists. 

Mistborn spoilers. 

Spoiler

Scadrial was created by Ruin and Preservation and had no preexisting magic system. The interactions between the planet and the Shards were purely of Ruin and Preservation. A system for each and a mix. I think what happened there is only possible on a newly created world like this. 

If a new shard came to Scadrial, I think now that the magic systems have been established, a new shard could expand upon them, but wouldn't be able to create an entirely new system. 

 

[Song]

I have been working on the basis that Hoid took the Taln's blade and did a swap with a plain old Shardblade. This seems to me to be the only reason why he would have been waiting at the gates of Kholinar for Taln's arrival. 

[MonsterMetroid]

13 minutes ago, Song said:

I have been working on the basis that Hoid took the Taln's blade and did a swap with a plain old Shardblade. This seems to me to be the only reason why he would have been waiting at the gates of Kholinar for Taln's arrival. 

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/87-white-sand-vol1-release-party/#e5773

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Questioner

The Herald of War at the end of Way of Kings-- I assume he had an Honorblade with him?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Questioner

Okay... So when Dalinar had the sword that he gave up...

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Questioner

...for the Stormfather it actually cried, which it typically happens if there's spren in the sword, which means that was not an Honorblade, correct?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, and if you look they're described differently!

Questioner

Which means somebody else has the sword, correct?

Brandon Sanderson

The sword was switched out!

Questioner

Probably by Wit. I'm not going to ask you for spoilers, but...

Brandon Sanderson

Wit does not have the sword.

Questioner

No!?

Brandon Sanderson

But... I can't-- I dunno if I've told people whether or not he at one point had the sword... But he does not have the sword now.

So we know he at least doesn't have it now maybe he did at one point though...

[RShara]

There's another that says he did not switch the Blades.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/224-words-of-radiance-san-francisco-signing/#e6885

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Questioner

At the very end of Words of Radiance, Dalinar touches a Shardblade and it screams at him. Shouldn't that particular Blade have been safe?

Brandon Sanderson

No it should not have. It's a clue that something has happened.

[...]

[This is] a question that the subtle reader should be asking. And there are other clues that something is wrong with what the story you've been told is.

Questioner

Because Option 2 is that it's unsafe to touch an honorblade, but there's no evidence of that.

Brandon Sanderson

There is no evidence of that. In fact there's much stronger evidence that something else is going on.

Questioner 2

Did Hoid switch out the blades?

Brandon Sanderson

Hoid did not switch out the blades, but good question.

 

[Doomdrinker]

4 hours ago, MonsterMetroid said:

I agree it is a bit of a reach... but one thing has been bugging me.

Roshar has 3 shards. Two of which were there for super long and invested in planet roshar.

Scadrial has 2 shards

Roshar has 1, maybe 2, possibly 3 magic systems if you count fabriels

Scadrial has 3

I feel like there is some magic systems we are missing on roshar... and one of them might be what stone shamans have access to.

We have assumed them to be some sort of religious leaders only but maybe they have a source of power as well. After all Shin is a really different place from teh rest of the world and I bet it is in the cognitive realm too and thus spiritual realm as well.

And the fact that divination is in that description... sounds like fortune sight to me which could help get taln's blade

It is mentioned in are arcanum that there might be another set a abilities on roshar

"I’m not certain yet how the ten levels of Voidbinding or its cousin the Old Magic fit into this paradigm, if indeed they can. My research suggests that, indeed, there should be another series of abilities that is even more esoteric than the Voidbindings. Perhaps the Old Magic fits into those, though I am beginning to suspect that it is something entirely different."

 

[Isilel]

8 hours ago, Calderis said:

And why does he need to unbond his Blade? It's not a Shardblade. It doesn't work the same way. The bond is shallow enough to form on touch, which means no week of bonding like a dead blade. Why would it take any more time or effort to break a bond that shallow that  it does to make it?

If that had been the case, the Heralds would have lost their Honorblades long before their defection. During all the Desolations and battles that they have been through, there surely were moments when they dropped their Blades without dismissing them or somebody grabbed them, etc. It is true that the bond is shallow and very easy to transfer for normal people who picked up Honorblades after Aharietam, but IMHO there was something more when a Herald faithful to his vows was using his.

In fact, I have wondered how the Fused were able to capture and torture the Heralds in Damnation... but not separate them from their Honorblades. How was it possible to keep  the Heralds captive if they still had surges and could summon their Blades? I guess that we'll have to wait until their PoV books.

I do agree with you that Szeth was a member of the shamanate and the custodian of Jezrien's Blade, which is seems to be a lifetime position. He thought to himself that he was an educated man in WoK, and he  fluently speaks and writes in a number of languages without any supernatural help. It also never made a lick of sense that Truthless would be handed  Honorblades when cast out or that a person could learn to use one with such excellence in a short amount of time.

I also agree that Shin may have some normal Shardblades - as we know there have been Radiants of Shin extraction and they could have gone back to their people before breaking their oaths. Also, we have learned about something called "Shin invasions" in OB - Shardblades could have been acquired during those. But why would the shamans replace Taln's Honorblade with a shardblade, when they could have just taken it and disappeared?

 

8 hours ago, RShara said:

 Candidates could range from the Ghostbloods, Ishar, any of the other non-completely-insane-Heralds, the 17th Shard, the Sleepless, or even Cultivation, since she apparently had hold of NB at some point.

Indeed.

8 hours ago, RShara said:

The Shin feel even using Stormlight is blasphemous.

Well, custodians of the Honorblades use it routinely for training according to Szeth in OB, so we don't know if this truly applies to the stone shamanate. This could be the case with other blasphemies, such as fabrials or shardblades, as well. Forbidden to the plebs, but secretly used by elites/priesthood.

[Stark]

My fear is that Odium has it now.  Taln showed up at Kholinar which fell, at some point during the Vengeance Pact war, under the influence of three unmade.  One of which is considered a force, not a personality.At some point, the blade gets switched, and Taln is shipped off to the plains.  And Brandon has confirmed that Wit does not have it.

 

I figure one of Odium's agents, like the queen, took it.  They realized that they could not stop the communication going out via spanreed that a crazy, dark-eyed shardbearer had shown up, and that someone, like Dalinar, would want to see him in person to figure out what was going on.  They had to send Taln with a blade.  Too many people loyal to the Kholins who could give an accurate description of the man to do otherwise.  So they swapped the blade with one of the ones that Odium's agents have been collecting since the Recreance.

 

Why do I think this?  He was very excited to get Jezrien's blade.  If he got the right set of five, he would be able to give a minion access to all ten surges without turning them into a time-bombed gem monster.  With Taln's and Jezrien's he would be able to give someone access to four separate surges.  And Nale is coming over to his side with the skybreaker sword, giving him a fifth surge (the Dustbringer sword would likely be more interesting to him).

 

I hope I'm wrong, but I think Odium has it.  

[MonsterMetroid]

7 hours ago, Doomdrinker said:

"I’m not certain yet how the ten levels of Voidbinding or its cousin the Old Magic fit into this paradigm, if indeed they can. My research suggests that, indeed, there should be another series of abilities that is even more esoteric than the Voidbindings. Perhaps the Old Magic fits into those, though I am beginning to suspect that it is something entirely different."

Nice Catch! that is super interesting that Brandon is all but confirming that we havent seen everything yet.

[Rainier]

13 hours ago, Oversleep said:

Szeth also mentions in Oathbringer having heard a voice in his head once.

It's possible he was bonding a spren at one point, which made him realize Desolation is coming, which caused him to be branded Truthless...

I thought that this was due to his revival (which didn't work entirely properly) that leaves him loosely connected to the physical realm, and thus he hears people and things from the spiritual realm. Screams, etc.

Although he very well could have begun to bond a spren, which led him to declare the Desolations returned, which led to him being declared Truthless, I don't think that's what was referenced by the voices.

[Oversleep]

36 minutes ago, Rainier said:

I thought that this was due to his revival (which didn't work entirely properly) that leaves him loosely connected to the physical realm, and thus he hears people and things from the spiritual realm. Screams, etc.

Although he very well could have begun to bond a spren, which led him to declare the Desolations returned, which led to him being declared Truthless, I don't think that's what was referenced by the voices.

Well, he makes it clear it's not the screams or whispers of people he killed:

Quote

“I knew a voice like yours once, sword-nimi.”

The whispers?

“No. A single one, in my mind, when I was young.” Szeth shaded his eyes, looking across the glistening lake. “I hope things go better this time.”

When he was young. Meanwhile he hears the screams since like what, 2 years ago? Not more than five.

[Storms!]

Quote

“I hope things go better this time.” -Szeth

This is potential evidence of bonding a spren. It makes sense that he started bonding a spren, then seeing voidspren, leading to his declaration that caused his Truthless status.

 

It could totally be stone shaman thing that we don't know about, but it is certainly plausible that he was bonding a spren based off this statement

[Kaleid]

I wonder what spren he had been about to bond? Could it be the same spren he is now swearing his ideals to?

[Rainier]

1 hour ago, Oversleep said:

Well, he makes it clear it's not the screams or whispers of people he killed:

Quote

“I knew a voice like yours once, sword-nimi.”

The whispers?

“No. A single one, in my mind, when I was young.” Szeth shaded his eyes, looking across the glistening lake. “I hope things go better this time.”

When he was young. Meanwhile he hears the screams since like what, 2 years ago? Not more than five.

Ah yes. He's a backstory character, and, except for the two Heralds, I think all of them had a chance to bond spren by the start of the series proper. Dalinar (and Gavilar) were on the path to becoming a Bondsmith for some years, so I'll excuse him. The rest (Lift, Jasnah, Renarin, Kaladin, Shallan, Eshonai, Szeth) had some kind of experience that needs to be explained in those backstory chapters.

This quote puts the timeline much, much earlier than I expected. It makes me think of Jasnah's mysterious illness when she was a child, and how she bonded her spren. Jasnah is only a year younger than Szeth, so while she was suffering as a child, he could have met his spren for the first time. It just pushes the timeline for the return of the Desolations ever backward. When did Taln break? When did the spren return? What happened first, and when, that set this all in motion?