Popular Post +Hoiditthroughthegrapevine Posted December 28, 2017 Popular Post Report Share Posted December 28, 2017 (edited) *EDITED* See bottom of OP for Potential Problems with this theory. These have more or less been resolved by the WoB about Rosharan Shard colors, added below. Grab some popcorn, this is a long one, but well worth the read. The primary thesis of this theory is that 3 primary modes of distribution of Investiture existed on Roshar prior to the shattering of Adonalsium, and that Voidlight as it is used to power the voidbinding of the Fused is a hacked magic system and is not Odium's actual manifestation of Investiture. An extension of this thesis is that the 3 pre-shattering modes of distribution of investiture (previously splinters of Adonalsium) translate to the post-shattering 3 primary god spren that the Bondsmiths are able to bond. 2 of these splinters have been absorbed into the intents of Cultivation and Honor, while the 3rd god spren is separate and is possibly still a composite of different shardic investiture, but is not of Odium. All WoBs are going to be in spoiler tags so you can read them if you want to or not. We know from a couple WoB's that after Adonalsium was shattered, all pre-existing investiture was assigned to a shard but also there wasn't a 1 to 1 correspondence, rather the investiture was proportionally assigned to different shards based on the nature of the pre-existing investiture and the intent of the shard. Spoiler From this WoB we see that all post shattering investiture was assigned to different shards: Quote Overlord Jebus [PENDING REVIEW] Is all Investiture in the Cosmere associated with a Shard? Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW] Yes, well, okay. So this is a complicated one. So, Investiture predates the Shattering of Adonalsium, all Investiture was from Adonalsium, all Investiture got assigned to one of the 16 Shards when Adonalsium was Shattered. Some of the Investiture was not on Yolen but location is irrelevant. So Investiture is related to Shards even on planets where none of the Shards are inhabiting. Overlord Jebus [PENDING REVIEW] Are they aware of that Investiture? Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW] That's part of the whole seeing into the infinite, being beyond even the power of a Shard. So, technically you could make the argument that Harmony could feel the sense of Preservation of every world in the Cosmere, right? Because the building blocks of all life and creation are these things. Overlord Jebus [PENDING REVIEW] So the Shard of Preservation embodies all preservation in the Cosmere? Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW] Yes but he just can't do that, right? Like, he's not infinite. The Vessels are not, even if their minds are enormously expanded by holding a Shard, they are not infinite. The Connection is all there in the Spiritual Realm And we can see from this WoB that pre-existing Adonalsium Investiture doesn't have a 1 to 1 correspondence to a shard, but is assinged to a shard based on the nature of the investiture and the intent of the shard (bold emphasis mine): Quote Questioner [PENDING REVIEW] So, at the Forbidden Planet signing you said that when Adonalsium was Shattered, all Investiture in the cosmere was associated to one of the Shards. So, what happened with Adonalsium's spren on Roshar? Were those associated to Honor and Cultivation? What happened with them? Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW] They were already associated to certain parts of Adonalsium and they went with those associations. There's a lot of Cultivation in all of the spren, particularly the natural spren. The fact that there can be a lot specific shardic investiture implies that there is a little bit that isn't derived from that shard, and the fact that specific spren have more implies a correlation between the initial nature of the investiture and the base intent or direct intervention of a shard. Also what has been previoulsy referred to as Voidlight I will be calling violet light, because I think voidlight implies a causal link that is not there. You can see by this WoB that Brandon is somewhat cagey about linking this violet light to Voidbinding: Spoiler Quote unknown Hey Brandon! If you're still answering these...what would happen if a Surgebinder absorbed Voidlight? (Or whatever's powering the Everstorm) Brandon Sanderson RAFO. (Sorry.) Argent Is Voidlight a good name for it? We've been playing with the words "void" and "odium", stitching them together into Voidlight, Voids (as opposed to Surges), Voidspren, Odiumspren, etc. Are any of those accurate? Brandon Sanderson It may not be accurate, but it is a valid conjecture. Afraid I won't say more right now.   I believe these were the 3 means of distributing Investiture that existed before Adonalsium was shattered: The highstorm (distributes storm light, post-shattering was invested by Honor) The ecological system for maintaining life on a rocky soil-less system and general distribution of life based magic across Roshar (distributes crem, minerals, etc to plants, helps life-based spren become sentient and creates magic purelake fish. I believe the vehicle for distribution of this investiture is the high storm as well and is invested by Cultivation. Further I think this god spren is the gigantic spindly legged glowing form seen walking in the highstorm) The force that allows gemhearts to be created, and allows gemhearted life to bond with spren by creating an invested focal point for the other two forms of investiture (this is the shardicly unaligned force, and the conversion of stored investiture to energy (i.e. the burning away of the gemheart), presents as violet light, while the natural coalescing of this investiture results in the creation of the gemheart itself).  FOUNDATIONAL FACTS (Rosharan Ecology and Investiture Pre-shattering) We know from this WoB that the Highstorms are a pre-shattering phenomena on Roshar: Spoiler Quote Questioner [PENDING REVIEW] Pre-Shattering magic in books? Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW] Let's see. I would count the highstorms as that. Highstorm predates the Shattering. Now, the highstorm has been changed dramatically by certain events, but the highstorm does predate the Shattering.  And further we know that the Parshendi were created pre-shattering from this WoB: Spoiler Quote Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) The parshendi were created to be part of the Rosharan ecosystem. And that they bonded spren pre-shattering as well from this WoB: Spoiler Quote Questioner What happens to the spren the Parshendi bond when they switch form? So say if they're in soldier form, and they switch over to mate, what happens to that spren? Brandon Sanderson The spren is released. Questioner So when they took on void, they didn't kill their previous spren? Brandon Sanderson No, they don't kill when they-- No. That's a good question. Nope. Questioner Do those spren evolve in any way into something else? Brandon Sanderson Those spren that they are bonding with are generally what we call non-sapient spren, and so, no, and also the spren are barely aware that they-- they're bonded--- those spren, the non-voidspren, right? Like when they're bonding, generally what's happening is how... It's a symbiotic relationship, right? And the spren that gets bonded to them, it's just kind of like, "Oh, this is my life now! This is just normal. This is what's happened." The same thing happens with spren involved in greatshells and things like this. This is a natural part of the natural cycle for those spren. We also know, post shattering, that the Parshendi can only change forms during a Highstorm (prior to the Everstorm), this implies that Stormlight investiture is necessary for the transformation and further that Stormlight investiture was distributed by the Highstorm pre-shattering.  From these data points we know the following: Highstorms and the means of distributing stormlight existed pre-shattering Investiture was used to faciliate life on Roshar pre-shattering Gemhearts and mechanisms to affect life (physical transformation) existed pre-shattering.  SUPPORTING DETAILS The three moons are highly symbolic, and we know that Adonalsium created the Rosharan system before the arrival of Honor, Cultivation and Odium, so it seems somewhat safe to assume that the Rosharan moons existed pre-shattering as well. Salas the violet moon which rises first in the night time sky (possibly representing the force of investiture that allows the growth of the gemheart vessel that can house the renewable form of investiture, i.e. stormlight) Nomon the blue moon which rises second and is, according to the Natan origin myth story, the most powerful of the moons (makes sense because it is possibly the most active vehicle for distribution of investiture in the form of Stormlight) Mishim the green moon that according to the same myth is the cleverest of the moons. The color associated with Honor and the direct investiture of the Highstorm is blue (Honorspren are blue, stormlight breathed out or leaking out of skin manifests as blue light as well). The color associated with Cultivation is Green (the color of lifespren, the color of the Nightwatcher) The color associated with Odium is yellow-white (the color of voidspren, the color of the metal of the Dagger Moash uses to kill Jezrien) I think, meaningfully, the color violet does appear but not with any specific association to any of the 3 shards. It's the color of greatshell blood and also is the color of the carapace of Chasmfiends. Also, I think that the one real clue that we've gotten about voidbinding, namely the Voidbinding chart in the endpapers of TWoK shows two different colors of connection between each order of Voidbinder and the surges that they access, yellow and violet, and I think this explains a lot. Here's the chart: Note the yellow lines in the chart connect the orders of Voidbinders together, but don't connect to the surges themselves, those are all violet connections. Also note how the two god's eyes orders of Voidbinders don't have any direct violet connections, they instead show violet energy radiating out from the gem that they are contained in. I think that this is the strongest proof that Voidbinding uses a separate investiture to access the surges, and that further, as we see voidbinding working with the Fused, they are converting the gemhearts of their Singer host's from stored material investiture into energy to access a particular surge. The energy comes from the conversion of the gemheart, the focus comes from the voidbinding. Also, interesting to note, the two god's eye surges suggest that their could be two Orders of Voidbinders that are able to convert and distribute violet light investiture to other Voidbinders. We know from a WoB that Renarin uses Stormlight to fuel voidbinding (specifically seeing into the future), so voidbinding isn't only fueled by violet light investiture: Spoiler Argent [PENDING REVIEW] Let’s talk about Renarin, and Voidbinding. So, with that page we talked about, Renarin Voidbinds. I asked about visions, you pointed to Voidbinding chart, he Voidbinds. Is that using Stormlight to power abilities different from the Surgebindings we’ve seen?  Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW] Yes. Argent [PENDING REVIEW] Is that what voidbinding is? Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW] No, but close. You’re on the right track. We are gonna get into that, I’m not gonna tell you what the chart means, and things like that. But yeah, something really weird is happening there. I think that if Renarin's eyes glowed red when he was seeing the future that it would have been mentioned in the scene where Jasnah almost kills him. The fact that his eyes don't glow red, shows that this use of Voidbinding is not a hacked implementaton (unlike for the Fused whose eyes glow red, or the storm form Parshendi who's eyes also glow red). This implies that the conversion of the stored (violet godspren) based investiture in the gemhearts of Singers is a hacked system and therefore the violet light based investiture IS NOT of Odium. If this is true, this would also explain why the Fused use violet light investiture so cavalierly, if they can convert the gemheart of their host into violet light investiture, they could use this perpetually until the gemheart was consumed. This would kill their current host, but they would just fuse a different host when the next Everstorm passes. I don't think that the Everstorm functions as distribution system for violet light investiture, I think rather it is a conduit from the Cognitive realm on Braize to Roshar to allow the Singers to bond either Voidspren or the Cognitive Shadows of ancient Singers. SPECULATIVE THEORIES BASED ON THE ABOVE: I speculated in the [OB] Third Bondsmith and Urithiru thread that Ba-Ado-Mishram might be the third godspren, and might be the Sibling that the Stormfather talks about in OB:  The formulation is a little looser than this post, but I think the theory is actually quite sound. Especially looking at the Voidbinding chart, where one of the god's eyes order might be instrumental in controlling BAM to distribute non-destructive violet light to the armies of Odium. The other god's eye order of Voidbinder is likely Odium's Champion (with such a strong connection to Odium, it would be highly probable that this particular Voidbinder could channel and direct Odium's actual investiture and possibly convert gemhearts in the followers of Odium to violet investiture. It might have been one of the responsibilites of the 3rd bondsmith, keeping BAM from going over to the side of Odium and being bonded by a Voidbinder. Melishi might have made the determination after BAM was Unmade that it was safer to seal the Sibling away in a perfect gem prison than to try and fix BAM so that BAM could again be used to power Urithiru. I think we haven't really seen what Odium's investiture is capable of. I think we have seen it being used inefficiently to hack a separate magic system (that predates the shattering of Adonalsium) and that we really won't know what true voidbinding is until the Army that emerges from the Origin with light in pockets (mentioned in the Puuli interlude) arrives. @Wit Beyond Measure, @Varion, @MonsterMetroid put some really good work in building up evidence that Thuderclasts are formed by mindless fused bonding gemhearts embedded in stone in the [OB] Secrets to Parshendi Forms, Thunderclasts, & Urithiru thread. If the theory that violet light investiture is created by conversion of gemhearts to energy, then I think that this is one more point in favor of the Thunderclast theory. I also think that the gemstone that Eshonai got from Gavilar contained the unmade Sja-anat. We know from revelations at the end of WoR that Venli and her fellow scholar form listeners had all tried out stormform before Eshonai did, and the red color of the spren implies corrupted investiture. My guess is that Venli got the sphere from Eshonai and released Sja-anat, and Sja-anat created voidspren by corrupting windspren that allowed the Parshendi to assume stormform. There were a lot of Listeners that assumed storm form, and we know that windspren are plentiful, and before I was always wondering how they found so many of these stormform spren around the shattered plains and why they hadn't bonded them before. But thinking along the lines of this theory it's obvious, the corrupted windspren allowed the listeners to create the Everstorm, which acts like a functional bridge between Braize and Roshar. The reason no listener used violet light investiture before the Fused arrived is because it consumes the gemheart of the host. A cognitive shadow joined to a host wouldn't die as their gemhearts were slowly consumed, but a non-fused Parshendi probably wouldn't last long converting their heart into investiture. Another point in favor of this theory is that Renarin bonded a corrupted truthwatcher spren at the shattered plains, which wouldn't have been possible if Sja-anat wasn't also at the shattered plains.  **************************************************************************** POTENTIAL PROBLEMS WITH THIS THEORY **************************************************************************** Thanks to @Darvys, @RShara, @Wit Beyond Measure and especially @StrikerEZ I know that some of the foundational principles of this theory have proven to be just plain wrong. This is the place that I will use to highlight all of the erroneous assumptions, and highlight compelling counter arguments to the main premises of the theory. As @StrikerEZ and @Darvys pointed out, reading too much into the significance of color is problematic, and it leads to oversimplifications that confuse the issue. The theory really hinges on the fact that the color associated with the shards is a compelling causal link, but Stormlight is NOT blue, it is in fact white. We haven't really seen enough of Cultivation to associate anything with her Investiture (other than an ability to manipulate the spirit web/minds of people who specifically sought her out) and Voidspren are not just yellow-gold, Ulim who helps Venli find Eshonai's corpse in the Part 1 interlude is a Red spren. *EDIT* Most of the apparent problems with this theory had to do with the colors not corresponding correctly, but the assumptions of color matching the 3 different types of Investiture on Roshar holds, after this WoB (spoilered below with emphasis added) that explicitly states that Odium is associated with Red/Gold, Honor is Associated with Blue/White and Cultivation is associated with Green. The obvious color missing is the Violet, like the violet moon Selas and the black-violet antiglow of Voidlight. Spoiler Questioner Is such a motif present in any other books? I think I see it in Stormlight. Brandon Sanderson Yeah, in Stormlight you can see it. So, Ruin is a red-gold... not Ruin, Odium. Odium is a red-gold. Honor is a blue-white and Cultivation is green, obviously. So, those motifs stay, when you... when you see a red or a gold, it's a reddish gold sort of thing, either of those colors, it's going to be Odium. Questioner Even when we something we might suspect to be outside influence in other worlds? Brandon Sanderson Not necessarily, because red can also mean corrupted Investiture in the Cosmere. So, I would call Odium's real color gold, because you're going to see red when Odium is corrupting other things, so... Questioner It's not necessarily on Roshar. Brandon Sanderson It's not necessarily Odium. So, you're asking for the invading force on Mistborn, it doesn't necessarily mean Odium because it's red. So red just kind of means corruption. I've talked about that before, so. Not necessarily, not definitive, yeah. Footnote: When Sanderson said "you're asking about the invading force on Mistborn", the questioner made a guilty "caught red-handed" shrug. ICon 2019 (Oct. 15, 2019) Also there's a WoB that implies pretty strongly that no Spren is completely derivative of a single shard, but is more a proportional mixture of different Shardic investiture, so inferences based on the coloration of spren are most likely more complicated than stated in the OP, and don't prove a causal connection: *EDIT* This really has no bearing on the matter upon further reflection. Spoiler Argent (paraphrased) Is Cultivation's Shardholder still alive. Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) Good question, what do you think? Argent (paraphrased) I want to say, but that's based on my knowledge before I read Lift's interlude from Words of Radiance. Now I am leaning towards no. Based on that interlude, it looks like spren have essence from both Honor and Cultivation. It's almost like they exist in a spectrum, on one end of which is Honor, and on the other - Cultivation; so there are spren that are, for the lack of better example, 90% Honor and 10% Cultivation, and there are spren that are 15% Honor and 85% Cultivation. Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) That's a very astute observation! Argent (paraphrased) And since we know that Honor is Splintered, then it might be the case that Cultivation is also Splintered, and their Splinters form the spren. As @StrikerEZ pointed out, Voidlight looks to be the proper term to use to refer to violet investiture. There is a reference in the Gem Archive that states that Ba-Ado-Mishram was able to provide Voidlight to Odium's followers: *EDIT* This is not really a salient issue, Voidlight is the proper term. Spoiler Ba-Ado-Mishram has somehow Connected with the parsh people, as Odium once did. She provides Voidlight and facilitates forms of power. Our strike team is going to imprison her. Gemhearts are most likely not consumed in order to provide voidlight, but there is a WoB that they are physically manifest Investiture: *EDIT* This still remains to be seen, the examples of Yelig-nar consuming his host and the Fused Taking over the body of their host provide countervailing arguements that this might indeed be true, that Gemhearts can be consumed to produce Voidlight in the absence of an alternate source of Voidlight. Spoiler Overlord Jebus [PENDING REVIEW] So you've previously described gemhearts as Investiture leaking into the Physical Realm in a similar kind of process to atium. Now atium had a way of-- the Investiture used in the creation of it-- of returning back to the kind of background pool of Investiture on Scadrial. Is there a way of the Investiture used in the creation of gemhearts to return to the Roshar Investiture pool? Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW] Yes. Overlord Jebus [PENDING REVIEW] There is? Have we had any hints of it at all? Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW] Yes. It's more likely that gemhearts are created from Investiture "leaking" from all the Invested shards on Roshar (given the fact that gems of all different types exist on Roshar and that they are keyed to different fabrials and correspond to the 10 essences in relation to soulcasting). This doesn't preclude the fact that there could be another loose source of Investiture on the Rosharan system, but it makes it less likely that gemhearts are solely composed a single type of Investiture. *EDIT* I No longer agree with this statement. I think they are a particular expression of the 3rd flavor of Investiture on Roshar, I will link to my BAM theory when I've posted it. I still think the Voidbinding chart is information rich and worth scrutinizing. It still feels like there is something hiding in plain sight, something revelatory and amazing.  If anyone has anything else to add to this Mia Culpa disclaimer, please let me know. Wild speculation is fun, but good information is better. Edited August 25, 2020 by hoiditthroughthegrapevine Revised the problem section, because most problems were cleared up with a single WoB 20 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonsterMetroid Posted December 28, 2017 Report Share Posted December 28, 2017 Good theory with some pretty convincing evidence! I have only read through half so far so i will edit this when IÂ finish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wit Beyond Measure Posted December 28, 2017 Report Share Posted December 28, 2017 27 minutes ago, hoiditthroughthegrapevine said: SUPPORTING DETAILS The three moons are highly symbolic, and we know that Adonalsium created the Rosharan system before the arrival of Honor, Cultivation and Odium, so it seems somewhat safe to assume that moons existed pre-shattering as well. Salas the violet moon which rises first in the night time sky (representing the force of investiture that allows the growth of the gemheart vessel that can house the renewable form of investiture, i.e. stormlight) Nomon the blue moon which rises second and is, according to the Natan origin myth story, the most powerful of the moons (makes sense because it is the most active vehicle for distribution of investiture in the form of Stormlight) Mishim the green moon that according to the same myth is the cleverest of the moons. ... I've barely scratched the surface, but I'm enjoying things so far! I do have a couple of burning questions: 1.) How do we know the things I've bolded from your post? Do you recall a source and an approximate location? 2.) Is this chart in the books? Which one and where? I'm having a hard time finding this in my Kindle version. Thanks! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Hoiditthroughthegrapevine Posted December 28, 2017 Author Report Share Posted December 28, 2017 1 minute ago, Wit Beyond Measure said: I've barely scratched the surface, but I'm enjoying things so far! I do have a couple of burning questions: 1.) How do we know the things I've bolded from your post? Do you recall a source and an approximate location? 2.) Is this chart in the books? Which one and where? I'm having a hard time finding this in my Kindle version. Thanks! The items that you highlighted were parenthetical speculations, you're correct that there is no direct textual proof of either of those statements. They are just logical suppositions, I've edited my post to make this more obvious. The Voidbinding chart is in the endpapers at the back of the U.S. hardcover edition of The Way of Kings along with a map of Shadesmar. The U.S. hardcover edition also includes the Surgebinding chart and a map of Roshar in the front endpapers. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wit Beyond Measure Posted December 28, 2017 Report Share Posted December 28, 2017 2 minutes ago, hoiditthroughthegrapevine said: The items that you highlighted were parenthetical speculations, you're correct that there is no direct textual proof of either of those statements. They are just logical suppositions, I've edited my post to make this more obvious. The Voidbinding chart is in the endpapers at the back of the U.S. hardcover edition of The Way of Kings along with a map of Shadesmar. The U.S. hardcover edition also includes the Surgebinding chart and a map of Roshar in the front endpapers. Awesome sauce! Thanks, greatly! I suspect I am missing some beautiful pictures, sadly, but I wouldn't trade the searchability of Kindle for them. Maybe I should get some posters, especially the ones of the Oathbringer gods I think I'm also missing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoyBlu Posted December 29, 2017 Report Share Posted December 29, 2017 @hoiditthroughthegrapevine The Voidbinder chart at the end of WoK has always baffled me. I appreciate your thoughts on it and the way you analyzed the colors and lines.  You gave me a lot to think about!  Now I wonder if Renarin has one power from the Knights Radiant (progression) and one power (the ability to see the future) from the Voidbringer chart. What happens if you overlay those two charts? His corrupted spren granted powers from two different sources  I also have wondered about the moons. Blue = Honor, Green = Cultuvation. There are three bondsmiths. Three moons. But Odium is not violet (as you stated). — but some have said red & violet are the same. (I don’t think they are)  The other thing in the books that you didn’t mention that were violet are the wines. I need to go look at that wine illustration again. If somehow the violet wines were influencing Dalinar that entire time he was drinking . . . . . . and consumed by the thrill . . . .  Thanks for your your well thought out post. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Hoiditthroughthegrapevine Posted December 29, 2017 Author Report Share Posted December 29, 2017 (edited) So looking into this more, I think that the Voidbinding chart is actually revealing quite a bit more than you might think at first glance. If there are 3 native types of investiture, keyed to the colors of the moons of Roshar, Violet, Blue and Green, then I think this theory is definitely onto something that has only, up to this point, been adumbrated by a loose collection of details. I have created a labeled Voidbinding chart which I will explain in detail below (the positions of Odium's Champion and BAM are total speculation): Firstly, as I mentioned in the OP, the fact that all of the orders of voidbinding are linked to eachother by yellow lightning bolt connections while the orders of voidbindings are linked to their associated surges by violet lightning bolts is very significant. I believe the explanation for this is that voidbinding is a magic for controlling a vessel that has access to Investiture. This would make Odium a truly dangerous shard because it would give him the power to corrupt/control investiture from any shard. I have labeled points of interest on this chart from 1 to 6, and refer to them by number below in this discussion. The first things of interest are the surges associated with the god's eye orders of Voidbinders. Note how the surges of tension (1) and Illumination (4) are encapsulated in blue with spikes of energy that radiate inwards and that these are further encapsulated by violet spikes radiating outwards towards the left hand surges. Note how this is then mildly inverted for the surges of Adhesion (3) and Progression (6), where the surges are encapsulated in violet which radiates inwardly and this is encapsulated by green spikes of energy that radiate outwards towards the right hand surges. This would seem to imply an overlap of the 3 native types of Investiture to Roshar, and further seems to imply (by the vertical stacking order) a more meaningful relationship. The blue (honor coded) surges seem to imply that Stormlight can be converted into violet light investiture. While the green (cultivation coded) surges seem to imply that violet light investiture can be converted into Life force energy (for want of a better thing to call Cultivation specific Investiture). Some possible ramifications of the above observations (which are totally speculative): Perhaps Odium can only pick a bondsmith or a truthwatcher as his Champion Perhaps Renarin is able to use the voidbinding surge of illumination to see the future without having his eyes go red, because it's a matter of converting stormlight into violet light investiture and has nothing to do with Odium interferring directly with the surge of Illumination. Â There are possibly many more ramifications, but I think that this chart is information rich, and that the linkages and relationships in this chart are incredibly meaningful. Edited December 29, 2017 by hoiditthroughthegrapevine 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darvys Posted December 29, 2017 Report Share Posted December 29, 2017 (edited) I don't see anything in your post that would contradict voibinding/light being of Odium other than the colors not matching, which is a moot point since if as you assume Honor's color is blue then that wouldn't fit stormlight being always white ( don't know where you got the blue stormlight ? ). The only other argument you give is a massive leap in my view, you take the absence of red glow in Renarin's eyes to somehow mean that the Fused' use of voidbinding is a hack, when the much simpler explanation is that the red glow is due to the use of the voidlight to power whatever magic you're using, the glow comes from holding a specific investiture not using surges. Then there's the whole consuming gemhearts to get investiture bit, i don't know where that comes from, but i guess the theory needs a way to separate Odium from voidlight so whatever. We know there's likely more to the Everstorm than just a way to bypass Braize, it somehow healed the parshmen and allowed them to regain their minds. Venli got a gem from Gavilar ? i kinda rushed her chapters but i doubt i'd have missed that, my understanding is that Gavilar had two gems, one holding Yelignar that remained in Kholinar and was used by Aesudan, and the one he gave Szeth for safekeeping. But anyway, Sja-Anat could or could not be involved in the whole mess in the plains, remember that Taln had already fallen at that point so voidspren were loose and it made sense they'd flock to the only band of listeners capable of forming bonds let alone the fact that Odium planned the whole thing anyway so they'd go where he points. As for Renarin's spren, he could have been created anywhere then went looking for a viable host.  For the Voidbinding chart, the interpretation seems rather random to me, but i'll leave that to people more versed in Brandon's magic systems.  Edited December 29, 2017 by Darvys 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Hoiditthroughthegrapevine Posted December 29, 2017 Author Report Share Posted December 29, 2017 (edited) First have an upvote, no theory is worth anything if it can't stand up to challenges. 1 hour ago, Darvys said: I don't see anything in your post that would contradict voibinding/light being of Odium other than the colors not matching, which is a moot point since if as you assume Honor's color is blue then that wouldn't fit stormlight being always white ( don't know where you got the blue stormlight ? ). I have been looking for textual references to find how I got the impression that Stormlight was blue-ish tinged, but all the ones I've found so far mention it as white. I know that I have the impression that it is blue, but I have been unable to find any specific references. I always imagined it as a brilliant white with a faint nimbus of blue around it (like the light given off by flash powder mixed with Copper (I) chloride):  Stormlight is also constantly referred to as luminescent smoke, and from first hand experience as a smoker, I can tell you that smoke has a slight blueish tinge to it as well. 1 hour ago, Darvys said: The only other argument you give is a massive leap in my view, you take the absence of red glow in Renarin's eyes to somehow mean that the Fused' use of voidbinding is a hack, when the much simpler explanation is that the red glow is due to the use of the voidlight to power whatever magic you're using, the glow comes from holding a specific investiture not using surges. There's a WoB that explicitly states that the color red signifies co-opted investiture: Quote FirstSelector [PENDING REVIEW] Does red in cosmere signify one Shard co-opting or corrupting another Shard's magic? Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW] Yes. So the fact that the Fused, the Stormform Parshendi and the Alethi being controlled by the Thrill all have red eyes is indicative that they are under the influence of one shard that has co-opted investiture from another source. 1 hour ago, Darvys said: Then there's the whole consuming gemhearts to get investiture bit, i don't know where that comes from, but i guess the theory needs a way to separate Odium from voidlight so whatever. This is the speculative part of theory, to try and explain why the Fused give off the violet light and seem to have a nearly limitless supply of violet light investiture. When Moash visits Hnanan, who is a highprince among the Fused, he sees some of the flying fused, casually floating while reading books: Quote Near the king's chambers, Moash passed two Fused reading books in the library. They'd removed their lengthy coats, floating with bare feet peeking from loose rippling trousers, toes pointed downward. Supposedly the SIngers with their gemhearts are better vessels for maintaining stormlight, but not perfect (like a perfect gem). If the Fused float even when doing something as mundane as reading a book, this implies that they don't view violet light investiture as a limited resource, even though the Everstorm at this point is only coming once every 9 days. 1 hour ago, Darvys said: Venli got a gem from Gavilar ? i kinda rushed her chapters but i doubt i'd have missed that, my understanding is that Gavilar had two gems, one holding Yelignar that remained in Kholinar and was used by Aesudan, and the one he gave Szeth for safekeeping. But anyway, Sja-Anat could or could not be involved in the whole mess in the plains, remember that Taln had already fallen at that point so voidspren were loose and it made sense they'd flock to the only band of listeners capable of forming bonds let alone the fact that Odium planned the whole thing anyway so they'd go where he points. As for Renarin's spren, he could have been created anywhere then went looking for a viable host. I mis-typed that, it was Eshonai who recieved the sphere from Gavilar (this has been edited in the original post). While true that Renarin's spren could have been corrupted at a different location, I think the more telling bit is that the Parshendi had access to a vast number of red stormform spren, which I still think are corrupted windspren. There might be something off in my analysis, but the coloring of the Voidbinding chart is as it is. I think that it is significant and should be looked at with more scrutiny. Edited December 29, 2017 by hoiditthroughthegrapevine found a better picture of luminescent blue tinged light/smoke Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calderis Posted December 29, 2017 Report Share Posted December 29, 2017 @hoiditthroughthegrapevine I haven't seen it mentioned much on the forums, but through discord I know there's a good chunk of us who believe that the Fused aren't Voidbinding. Their surges function in fundamentally the same way as they do for Radiants, and the change to the radial symmetry of the surge glyphs on the Voidbinding seems to imply that the surge functions differently (obviously this is all speculation). So I, and a at least a few others, think that the Fused are just surgebinding with a hack to fuel the surges via Voidlight. By this logic, the only voidbinding that we have seen thus far is Renarin's use of the Voidbinding version of illumination for his foresight. Just throwing out something else to think about. I disagree with your premise, primarily because of this epigraph. Quote "Ba-Ado-Mishram has somehow Connected with the parsh people, as Odium once did. She provides Voidlight and facilitates forms of power. Our strike team is going to imprison her." BAM provides Voidlight, as Odium once did. I believe with an active Desolation, and Odium on Roshar, Odium is directly providing the Voidlight to fuel his minions. 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormlightning Posted December 29, 2017 Report Share Posted December 29, 2017 (edited) This is quite impressive. I am going to do some thinking on this and come back. I've been constantly bothered by evidences throughout the books that imply that there are three systems/sources/somethings significant to Roshar, and yet that Odium is not a part of them. Your theory does a lot to make sense of that. Plus the moons are unquestionably important, since Wit took the time to delve into a story about them, and your interpretation works quite well to me. The violet light vs. golden light thing is probably my biggest selling point, though. They're so obviously different, readers could easily just run with it. It seems exactly like something Brandon would do. Obviously incongruent, but just in the background enough to escape notice. All that said, I do agree with Calderis that you might not be quite on with your interpretation of the Fused, mostly because there's still so much confusion regarding the Fused and voidbinding in the first place. As we clear that up, it might still leave room for much of your theory, though. Edited December 29, 2017 by Stormlightning 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Hoiditthroughthegrapevine Posted December 29, 2017 Author Report Share Posted December 29, 2017 17 minutes ago, Calderis said: So I, and a at least a few others, think that the Fused are just surgebinding with a hack to fuel the surges via Voidlight. I think this is true as well, I think the hack to fuel the surges is the conversion of the gemheart (physically manifest investiture) into kinetic investiture (the violet light that is seen like a nimbus around the flying Fused in particular). This investiture is used to access the normal surges (ineffeciently) and the voidbinding aspect of this system is that the vessels capable of accessing investiture are controlled by Odium. 14 minutes ago, Calderis said: Just throwing out something else to think about. I disagree with your premise, primarily because of this epigraph. Quote "Ba-Ado-Mishram has somehow Connected with the parsh people, as Odium once did. She provides Voidlight and facilitates forms of power. Our strike team is going to imprison her." BAM provides Voidlight, as Odium once did. I believe with an active Desolation, and Odium on Roshar, Odium is directly providing the Voidlight to fuel his minions. I think that this is true as well, but we know that there are 10 orders of Voidbinding shown on the voidbinding chart but Nine is Odium's number. My postulate on this front is that Odium fills in the role (or his proxy, Odium's Champion) of the what would be the order of the Voidbinding Bondsmith. That's why there are only 9 types of Fused and 9 types of voidbinding. This of course, is speculation too.  1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wit Beyond Measure Posted December 29, 2017 Report Share Posted December 29, 2017 (edited) 2 hours ago, hoiditthroughthegrapevine said: Eek! I think I'm in love with these additions! I was trying ever so hard to make sense of all of the glyphs, and you've done a brilliant job. I'm not sure if the glyphs had a key in the book or not, but I was struggling hard. Now that they are identified, I can't help but notice how the Void glyphs for the orders and the surges resemble and yet are fundamentally different from the Surgebinder glyphs for orders and surges, https://coppermind.net/wiki/File:TWoK_Front_Endsheet.jpg. Could the differences be because the orders and surges are corrupted with corrupt spren?  Edited December 29, 2017 by Wit Beyond Measure 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RShara Posted December 29, 2017 Report Share Posted December 29, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, hoiditthroughthegrapevine said: First have an upvote, no theory is worth anything if it can't stand up to challenges. I have been looking for textual references to find how I got the impression that Stormlight was blue-ish tinged, but all the ones I've found so far mention it as white. I know that I have the impression that it is blue, but I have been unable to find any specific references. I always imagined it as a brilliant white with a faint nimbus of blue around it (like the light given off by flash powder mixed with Copper (I) chloride): It might be from the WoR cover? Edited December 29, 2017 by RShara 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wit Beyond Measure Posted December 29, 2017 Report Share Posted December 29, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, hoiditthroughthegrapevine said: I have been looking for textual references to find how I got the impression that Stormlight was blue-ish tinged, but all the ones I've found so far mention it as white.  Quote Pole-mounted gem lamps ringed [the king's island], glowing with blue Stormlight, and a firepit dominated the center of the platform. Sanderson, Brandon. The Way of Kings (The Stormlight Archive, Book 1) (p. 325). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. There are many instances of blue Stormlight mentioned in WoK, such as this one, but all might be from sapphires. All of this has gotten me thinking about eye color, as well. Ash's eyes, for which she is famous, are a violet so pale they are almost white. Taln's are dark. But don't the rest have light blue eyes? Light eyes, for sure. I don't know if they are blue.   Edited December 29, 2017 by Wit Beyond Measure Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Hoiditthroughthegrapevine Posted December 29, 2017 Author Report Share Posted December 29, 2017 (edited) 39 minutes ago, Wit Beyond Measure said: There are many instances of blue Stormlight mentioned in WoK, such as this one, but all might be from sapphires. All of this has gotten me thinking about eye color, as well. Ash's eyes, for which she is famous, are a violet so pale they are almost white. Taln's are dark. But don't the rest have light blue eyes? Light eyes, for sure. I don't know if they are blue. I think you are right, the only stormlight that is directly referenced as blue is coming from sapphire colored gems. I only have physical and audiobook copies of the books, so I don't have the searchable power of kindle editions. But I found about 3 references that mention stormlight as white light, like luminescent smoke, so maybe my impression came from the cover of WoR like @RShara found (nice find by the way). I still think there might be some reference where Kaladin puffs out blue smoke, but it's very hard to find when combing through physical copies. IIRC, eye color only changes when a KR summons a shard weapon, and the coloring of the eyes seems to reflect the color of the gem associated with the KRs order. Kaladin's eyes turn blue (like sapphire) and Lift's eyes turn white (like diamond at the battle of Thaylen fields after summoning her shard pole). I don't know if a lighteyed KRs eye color changes, when Shallan summons Pattern their is no mention (that I remember) of her eye color changing. And likewise when Renarin summons Glys for the first time in front of Adolin, Adolin doesn't mention his eye color changing either. That's not to say it doesn't happen, but I don't think we have an onscreen instance of it occuring (but I totally could be wrong too). I don't think the eyes of the heralds match the color of the gemstone corresponding to their order from the 10 essences table in Ars Arcanum. Jezrein has dark eyes (if they matched they would be sapphire blue), and Taln has dark eyes as well (if they matched they would be yellowy/amber orange like Topaz). Also that labeled voidbinding chart was made using the corresponding names of the Orders of Knights Radiant from the Surgebinding chart, so that is not necessarily what the orders of Voidbinders are called, the labels are just showing how the voidbinding orders relate to the surgebinding orders. Glad you liked the chart, I think the best observation was the pattern of coloration of the energy/connection lines. Edited December 29, 2017 by hoiditthroughthegrapevine typo, like usual 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RShara Posted December 29, 2017 Report Share Posted December 29, 2017 (edited) 14 minutes ago, hoiditthroughthegrapevine said: I think you are right, the only stormlight that is directly referenced as blue is coming from sapphire colored gems. I only have physical and audiobook copies of the books, so I don't have the searchable power of kindle editions. But I found about 3 references that mention stormlight as white light, like luminescent smoke, so maybe my impression came from the cover of WoR like @RShara found (nice find by the way). I still think there might be some reference where Kaladin puffs out blue smoke, but it's very hard to find when combing through physical copies. IIRC, eye color only changes when a KR summons a shard weapon, and the coloring of the eyes seems to reflect the color of the gem associated with the KRs order. Kaladin's eyes turn blue (like sapphire) and Lift's eyes turn white (like diamond at the battle of Thaylen fields after summoning her shard pole). I don't know if a lighteyed KRs eye color changes, when shallan summons Pattern their is no mention (that I remember) of her eye color changing. And likewise when Renarin summons Glys for the first time in front of Adolin, Adolin doesn't mention his eye color changing either. That's not to say it doesn't happen, but I don't think we have an onscreen instance of it occuring (but I totally could be wrong too). I don't think the eyes of the heralds match the color of the gemstone corresponding to their order from the 10 essences table in Ars Arcanum. Jezrein has dark eyes (if they matched they would be sapphire blue), and Taln has dark eyes as well (if they matched they would be yellowy/amber orange like Topaz). Also that labeled voidbinding chart was made using the corresponding names of the Orders of Knights Radiant from the Surgebinding chart, so that is not necessarily what the orders of Voidbinders are called, the labels are just showing how the voidbinding orders relate to the surgebinding orders. Glad you liked the chart, I think the best observation was the patterns of coloration of the energy/connection lines. I think the Heralds' eyes only change when wielding their Honorblades. That's what happens with Szeth, anyway. Syl is blue-white. The Radiants in Dalinar's visions wore Shardplate that glowed with their color, and several of them were Windrunners, so glowed blue. Kaladin's Sylblade glows blue  Those are the only instances of non-sapphire blue glowishness that I can find in all 3 books.  Edited December 29, 2017 by RShara 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonsterMetroid Posted December 29, 2017 Report Share Posted December 29, 2017 1 hour ago, Wit Beyond Measure said: Eek! I think I'm in love with these additions! I was trying ever so hard to make sense of all of the glyphs, and you've done a brilliant job. I'm not sure if the glyphs had a key in the book or not, but I was struggling hard. Now that they are identified, I can't help but notice how the Void glyphs for the orders and the surges resemble and yet are fundamentally different from the Surgebinder glyphs for orders and surges, https://coppermind.net/wiki/File:TWoK_Front_Endsheet.jpg. Could the differences be because the orders and surges are corrupted with corrupt spren?  There is also this post that really heped me out theorize with the void chart if you need more help  3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Hoiditthroughthegrapevine Posted December 29, 2017 Author Report Share Posted December 29, 2017 13 minutes ago, RShara said: I think the Heralds' eyes only change when wielding their Honorblades. That's what happens with Szeth, anyway. Syl is blue-white. The Radiants in Dalinar's visions wore Shardplate that glowed with their color, and several of them were Windrunners, so glowed blue. Kaladin's Sylblade glows blue  Those are the only instances of non-sapphire blue glowishness that I can find in all 3 books. All of this totally makes sense, thanks for looking those up! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mutantspicy Posted December 29, 2017 Report Share Posted December 29, 2017 (edited) 4 hours ago, Calderis said: @hoiditthroughthegrapevine I haven't seen it mentioned much on the forums, but through discord I know there's a good chunk of us who believe that the Fused aren't Voidbinding. Their surges function in fundamentally the same way as they do for Radiants, and the change to the radial symmetry of the surge glyphs on the Voidbinding seems to imply that the surge functions differently (obviously this is all speculation). So I, and a at least a few others, think that the Fused are just surgebinding with a hack to fuel the surges via Voidlight. By this logic, the only voidbinding that we have seen thus far is Renarin's use of the Voidbinding version of illumination for his foresight. Just throwing out something else to think about. I disagree with your premise, primarily because of this epigraph. BAM provides Voidlight, as Odium once did. I believe with an active Desolation, and Odium on Roshar, Odium is directly providing the Voidlight to fuel his minions. To be fair when this story started we thought void bringers were some demonic god like cancer. Then we thought they were the manipulated parschendi, then we realized it was the humans some of whom use surgebinding, at the current position its pretty clear that humans and parshendi alike are able to pick sides, maybe not easily, but we all see its possible. Maybe even spren, void spren, and possibly unmade can change sides.  Point is words aren't always true, especially when special interest groups are the only one with control of the books. I guess I just saying voidlight, schmoidlight, what does voidbinding or voidbringring even mean anymore. It seems to me the magic is similar, but the religious and cultural perspectives change which create all the fun bits. PS, OH to be clear I agree in the belief that void light is similar to stormlight balance and all that, but more importantly was part of Roshar before the the shards shatterered and clung to it all. PSS. Also First of Sun doesn't have a shard supposedly, but appears to have some kind of investiture, so once again I agree that certain powers seem to exist on pre-shard planets in the cosmere. Edited December 29, 2017 by Mutantspicy 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darvys Posted December 29, 2017 Report Share Posted December 29, 2017 8 hours ago, hoiditthroughthegrapevine said: There's a WoB that explicitly states that the color red signifies co-opted investiture: So the fact that the Fused, the Stormform Parshendi and the Alethi being controlled by the Thrill all have red eyes is indicative that they are under the influence of one shard that has co-opted investiture from another source. I wasn't aware of anything close to that, so thanks for the WoB. In the examples you listed the Thrill seems odd in this context, isn't it confirmed that the Unmade are splinters of Odium ? Why would their influence on a human or listener be a hack ? In those cases you have a blank canvas in which you inject one Shard's investiture, what is there to co-opt ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wit Beyond Measure Posted December 29, 2017 Report Share Posted December 29, 2017 (edited) 7 hours ago, hoiditthroughthegrapevine said: I think you are right, the only stormlight that is directly referenced as blue is coming from sapphire colored gems. I only have physical and audiobook copies of the books, so I don't have the searchable power of kindle editions. But I found about 3 references that mention stormlight as white light, like luminescent smoke, so maybe my impression came from the cover of WoR like @RShara found (nice find by the way). I still think there might be some reference where Kaladin puffs out blue smoke, but it's very hard to find when combing through physical copies. I couldn't find any instances of "blue smoke" that relate to Kaladin, unfortunately. When combing through WoK searching "blue," I did see several instances when Kal's hand glowed blue, but in each instance it was either clear or at least implied that Kal was holding a sphere, perhaps a sapphire one. There might have been something I missed (skimmed because there is a lot of blue, of course) or something in the other two books. I love that the gods match the moon colors in Wit's story, but I do think that the story itself needs to make sense when we match the gods up properly. Tsa has a white light associated with her since the moon becomes white.  It would make sense that Odium would have tricked a god into something, but would he have had a child with a god? Could the white actually represent the people? Did the people trick Cultivation in order to get with Honor and form an alliance with Honor? Resulting in the birth of the Heralds? Sorry, that would put Odium back as the violet light. Perhaps there is a way to make the story make sense with Odium as the white light? And then who is the violet light? Just BAM? Thank you! Edited December 29, 2017 by Wit Beyond Measure Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Furry-And-Lovable-Grover Posted December 29, 2017 Report Share Posted December 29, 2017 I'm definitely onboard with this idea. I put forth the idea that the third moon/investiture on Roshar might be from a source other than Odium before and this line of reasoning certainly supports that. Following along these lines, I can definitely get behind the idea of BAM being related to the non-Honor/Cultivation investiture. I don't like the idea of BAM for the Sibling, because I think that the Stormfather would have had some insight in that vein. I also think that there's a way to fit this theory together with the Nohadon theory.  Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RShara Posted December 29, 2017 Report Share Posted December 29, 2017 3 minutes ago, Jhardin said: I'm definitely onboard with this idea. I put forth the idea that the third moon/investiture on Roshar might be from a source other than Odium before and this line of reasoning certainly supports that. Following along these lines, I can definitely get behind the idea of BAM being related to the non-Honor/Cultivation investiture. I don't like the idea of BAM for the Sibling, because I think that the Stormfather would have had some insight in that vein. I also think that there's a way to fit this theory together with the Nohadon theory.  Gasp. Nohadon is the Sibling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Furry-And-Lovable-Grover Posted December 29, 2017 Report Share Posted December 29, 2017 Just now, RShara said: Gasp. Nohadon is the Sibling. No need for sarcasm. Its just a suggestion that I feel like both points are headed in the right direction based on what we know. kthx. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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