[OB] Shallan: Simply Psycho or Seriously Corrupted?

[Wit Beyond Measure]

Not everyone seems to have appreciated PsychoShallan as much as I did, perhaps because I suspect her psychosis is not an arbitrary plot device.  What if Shallan's multiple personality issues are because she's seriously corrupted by Sja-anat?

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“Hessi reports stories of the Unmade not only corrupting spren, but corrupting people,” Shallan was saying. 

OB p. 757

 

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Of the Unmade, Sja-anat was most feared by the Radiants....  –From Hessi’s Mythica, page 89

OB p. 906

 

 

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Storms. She’d … she’d become one of them [Cult of Moments] so easily. Was her mind so quickly corrupted?

OB p. 732

The only times we see Sja-anat herself are through mirrors Shallan is looking into (OB pages 634 and then 815-822) and when Shallan's shadow actually becomes Sja-anat, as she nears and hears the Heart of the Revel.  Sja-anat is a reflection of Shallan?

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Give in.
Join the revel.
Shallan, listen to me.

She shook herself. That last voice had been different. She’d heard it before, hadn’t she?

She looked to the side, and found her shadow on the ground, pointed the wrong way, toward the moonlight instead of away from it. The shadow crept up the wall, with eyes that were white holes, glowing faintly.

I’m not your enemy. But the heart is a trap. Take caution.

OB p. 772-773

The bolded, italicized parts above denote where I believe Sja-anat is speaking whereas the unbolded, italicized parts seem to be the Heart of the Revel (Ashertmarn).  Twice, she reacts quite differently to Sja-anat than she does to Ashertmarn, both here and on page 731 where she says, "That last one stood out, like a scar on a beautiful man’s face. Jarring."

Sja-anat, Taker of Secrets.  Who has more secrets to take than Shallan?

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Trust is not mine, said the figure in the mirror. You will not give my children a home. Not yet.

OB p. 822

So I don't really have any answers here but lots of questions, and I'd love lots of discussions on these or related ideas.  I don't think we know enough to have definitive answers yet, but perhaps through discussion we can learn more than we now know.

1. Shallan has always had multiple personalities, but when did they truly start becoming an issue, bleeding into each other and out of control?  Was that only in Kholinar or just before?
2. Where has Shallan heard Sja-anat's voice before?  
3. Why is Sja-anat so shocked (page 634) when she first sees Shallan in the mirror in the palace?
4. Why is Sja-anat the most feared of all Unmade?
5. Has Sja-anat already corrupted Shallan as she corrupted spren? 
6. Is she in the process of corrupting Shallan, hence Shallan not yet giving Sja-anat's corrupted children a home?
7. Is Mishim's story (page 670-676) an analogy of Shallan's crisis, with Mishim shirking her moon duties to be what she is not?
8. Or is the story related in some other way(s)?  Starspren?  Gemstone constellations?
9. Do wrong-facing shadows always denote Unmade as they do for Odium's Champion? 
10. If so, what does that say about Jasnah's shadow attack?
11. If so, what does that say about Aimians?

It just seems to me that all of these things are complexly related to each other.  I'd love for us to hash out some ideas as to why that may be.

ETA:  Ash's eyes, I've learned so much from your responses!   I've combined and stolen much to come up with an answer, of sorts, that I'm reasonably happy with and excited about, which I describe in this post: 

 

Edited December 30, 2017 by Wit Beyond Measure

[BraidedRose]

It’s an interesting idea. Unfortunately, I do think Shallan’s splitting started becoming a serious issue well before we see her interact with Sja-anat so in my reading of it the options are Shallan is mad or Shallan is mad and corrupted. So I hope you’re wrong because I think Shallan has enough to be getting on with without corruption by an Unmade. Still, you bring up some interesting quotes. Wish I had more to offer at the moment but maybe others noticed more about this already and can add to the discussion.

[Wit Beyond Measure]

30 minutes ago, BraidedRose said:

It’s an interesting idea. Unfortunately, I do think Shallan’s splitting started becoming a serious issue well before we see her interact with Sja-anat so in my reading of it the options are Shallan is mad or Shallan is mad and corrupted. So I hope you’re wrong because I think Shallan has enough to be getting on with without corruption by an Unmade. Still, you bring up some interesting quotes. Wish I had more to offer at the moment but maybe others noticed more about this already and can add to the discussion.

Thanks!  There is still a chance that this could be influenced by Sja-anat, although I'll admit the chances do drop significantly in this case.  The first three of four times Sha-Sja get together in Kholinar, one or both seem shocked to see the other:

1. First time with mirror in palace: "And beyond that, deep within the mirror, something turned—the normal image fading—and looked toward Shallan with a sudden and surprised motion." Page 634
2. Second time in Cult parade:  "That last one [Sja-anat's voice instead of Revel's] stood out, like a scar on a beautiful man’s face. Jarring." Page 731
3. Third time outside Oathgate:  "That last voice [again hearing Revel first and then Sja] had been different. She’d heard it before, hadn’t she?"  Page 772

Almost as if they already knew each other, innit?

[StormblessDave]

Great post, however the main issue I see with this is the fact that Pattern doesn't seem to suspect anything. Moreover, nothing seemed amiss in Shadesmar(no spooky voidspren hanging over Shallan)

However, Shallan does look like the perfect candidate for Sja-anat. We might see her getting posessed in the near future :/

[SpeakoftheDeval]

Shadows that face the wrong way are just a feature of Shadesmar and when a characters shadow goes to the light it means they are partially transitioning into shadesmar. There are a couple WoBs on the arcanum about this

[insert_anagram_here]

@Wit Beyond Measure Thank you for this thread!

14 hours ago, Wit Beyond Measure said:

Not everyone seems to have appreciated PsychoShallan as much as I did, perhaps because I suspect her psychosis is not an arbitrary plot device. 

I love to don my tin foil hat and go off on theory tangents. PsychoShallan, a narrative imperfection, is the perfect set up in this case. She is an unreliable narrator with memory blanks, a compulsive liar to everyone, including herself. Tyn has already expressed: (WoR, page 387)

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“When a good con woman dies, it’s usually because she starts believing her own lies. She finds something good and wants it to continue. She keeps it going, thinking she can juggle it. One day more, she tells herself. One day more, and then . . .” 

This is a foreshadowing of poetic justice that could go off at some point and the fact that we, as readers, are also caught up in her own lie, will only enhance that revelation.

On the other hand, all of this can also be a red herring, while someone else, very close to her, is causing all the confusion and the lying. (much like TenSoon in Well of Ascension)

I have two book quotes for you that you might like:

Chapter 84: The One You Can Save. Location 16127 Kindle Version. (sorry I don't have the page on my e-reader)

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Shallan regarded the figure in the mirror. It had spoken. “What are you?” They call me the Taker of Secrets, the figure said. Or they once did. “One of the Unmade. Our enemies.” We were made, then unmade, she agreed. But no, not an enemy! The figure turned humanlike again, though the eyes remained glowing white. It pressed its hands against the glass. Ask my son. Please. “You’re of him. Odium.” The figure glanced to the sides, as if frightened. No. I am of me. Now, only of me. Shallan considered, then looked at the keyhole. By using Pattern in that, she could initiate the Oathgate. Don’t do it, Sja-anat pled. Listen, Radiant. Listen to my plea. Ashertmarn fled on purpose. It is a trap. I was compelled to touch the spren of this device, so it will not function as you wish. 

A lot of people, myself included, have argued in the past that when Sja-anat says 'son' she refers to Glys, Renarin's spren, but how would she know that Shallan could get in contact with him. Unless, by son, Sja-anat meant someone else that is present at this point and actually always present with Shallan.

Chapter 117: Champion with Nine Shadows. Location 21755 Kindle Version.

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Shallan leaped to her feet first. “Pattern!” she yelled, sweeping her hands forward by instinct, trying to summon the Blade. A part of her was impressed that was her reaction. Adolin would be proud.

It didn’t work, of course. Pattern shouted in apology from the bridge, panicked. And yet in that moment—facing the enemy bearing down, its lance pointed at her heart—Shallan felt something. Pattern, or something like him, just beyond her mental reach. On the other side, and if she could just tug on it, feed it . . .

She screamed as Stormlight flowed through her, raging in her veins, reaching toward something in her pocket.

A wall appeared in front of her.

Shallan gasped. A sickening smack from the other side of the wall indicated that the Fused had collided with it. 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think she was out of Stormlight at this point, so I'm not sure where she drew this power to Soulcast from. Either way, whatever this power was, it wanted her to feed it, which doesn't really sound like normal Surgebinding to me.

 

In regards to your questions:

1. I believe that, since she was a little child, Shallan always had the tendency of escaping abuse by pushing reality and problems into the back of her mind, in order to keep 'the real Shallan' away from all the bad memories. I think the multiple personalities have always been an issue, 'real Shallan' always hid her other selves, maybe because she was raised in an abusive environment by parents that did not accept the child she was. All of these personalities did not have names in the past so we couldn't be aware of them as separate beings. And they only manifest when she is put under stress. The first time we know is when she names herself Veil (in WoR - page 494) which later grows into 'the darkeyed version of herself' (in WoR - page 625). Then she keeps growing out of the disguise and into a personality itself. So when Radiant is named as such (in OB - Location 3156) we realize that both Veil and Radiant were separate personalities all along. Before the distinct naming point we, as readers, could not have been aware that these personalities existed before.

It's evident that she had all these other personalities when they all fought the battle of Thaylen Field in OB. In the end, the lot of them merged together and only the three main ones remained. Chapter 120: The Spear That Would Not Break. Location 22456 Kindle Version.

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This was enough. She had created Veil and Radiant to be strong when she was weak. She squeezed their hands tight, then hissed out slowly. The other versions of Shallan retreated into the Stormlight. 

2. We cannot know where Shallan has heard Sja-anat's voice before because Shallan is an unreliable narrator. In Chapter 27, OB, before even encountering the Midnight Mother, she discovers a drawing that she doesn't remember drawing. 

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A rush of lines sweeping out from a central point, confused and chaotic, transforming to the heads of horses with the flesh ripping off, their eyes wide, equine mouths screaming. It was grotesque, nauseating

So this could be the proof that another, corrupted, personality is taking over at times, without Shallan knowing. Even Pattern says 'he doesn't remember', but somehow that seems unlikely to me...

3. Is Sja-anat shocked when first sees Shallan? I'm sorry, I cannot find this reference. I did find how Shallan looked tho.

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Shallan walked toward the keyhole control device, summoning Pattern as a Blade. She studied him, then looked up at herself in one of the mirrors hanging on the wall. Someone else stood in the mirror. A woman with black hair that fell to her waist. She wore archaic clothing, a sleeveless, flowing gown that was more of a tunic, with a simple belted waist. Shallan touched her face. Why had she put this illusion on? 

What does this illusion mean? I have no idea. I could entertain the idea that Shallan is actually someone 'archaic' suffering from amnesia but at this point we are told she is raised within a family, so I cannot see it probable.

4. I think Sja-anat is the most feared of all the Unmade because she corrupts nahel spren, which are basically the source of Knight Radiant power. If their spren is untruthful, then their power can be easily corrupted by Odium unbeknownst to them.

5. Not sure if Shallan can be corrupted but I think it's possible that Pattern could already be corrupted. Actually, we know nothing about Cryptics and we haven't even seen Shallan say her first ideal. Along with her fragmented memory, there could be a whole part of her past that we have misunderstood. It's possible that corruption is part of Cryptic nature. But, there is a phrase what Sja-anat uses (OB - location 16130), she says she is 'compelled' to corrupt, so it's not necessarily intentional from her part nor from Pattern's part either. Pattern could be compelled to corrupt Shallan's mind all along, messing with her thoughts and misguiding her. (this is actually were I'm leaning the most at this point)

 

I would also like to remind you that Shallan remembers (WoR - page 337) a light behind a painting of a storm, that we are led (by Pattern himself) to believe that it was Pattern closed off in a box. If Pattern was indeed corrupted all along, if this is part of Cryptic nature, this could unravel everything we think we know about Shallan, even that she is a Lightweaver.

Edited December 28, 2017 by insert_anagram_here
wording fixes

[Wit Beyond Measure]

1 hour ago, insert_anagram_here said:

@Wit Beyond Measure Thank you for this thread!

...

3. Is Sja-anat shocked when first sees Shallan? I'm sorry, I cannot find this reference. I did find how Shallan looked tho.

Oh, my goodness!  Thank you, thank you, thank you!  I am loving your entire post so much:  the depth of analysis and insight is amazing.  I'll be chewing on these ideas for quite some time.

As for Sja-anat's shock at first seeing Shallan, that's when Shallan is killed in the palace, OB page 634 and location 12813:  "And beyond that, deep within the mirror, something turned—the normal image fading—and looked toward Shallan with a sudden and surprised motion. It looked like a shadow of a person, only with white spots for eyes."

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I would also like to remind you that Shallan remembers (WoR - page 337) a light behind a painting of a storm, that we are led (by Pattern himself) to believe that it was Pattern closed off in a box. If Pattern was indeed corrupted all along, if this is part of Cryptic nature, this could unravel everything we think we know about Shallan, even that she is a Lightweaver.

Shallan's childhood memories are so hazy to me, but I got the impression that Shallan's father took Pattern (probably found him easily in his Shardblade form) and locked him away in the wall safe in his office, which was behind this painting, after Shallan had killed her mother and her mother's lover with the blade.  I think I had to make a large number of assumptions to get there, though, since nothing is explicit.

As for Pattern being corrupted, I am not sure.  Glys's corruption is obvious the moment anyone sees him (OB page 1085 location 21916) because he's so different from the regular Truthwatcher spren, which is why Renarin kept Glys hidden from everyone else for so long.  It seems like they were in Urithiru's library when either Jasnah or Shallan noted how they'd never seen Renarin's spren.  And we know all of the differences that Shallan noted and drew for other corrupted spren.  But perhaps if Pattern is only in the process of being corrupted, he wouldn't show differences yet.

Jasnah says that Renarin is still a Truthwatcher, so even corrupted, Shallan would still be a Lightweaver, I imagine.  Unless she fully gives into the Dark Side, that is, in which case she's be a Darkweaver.

[MonsterMetroid]

Fantastic Post! I am starting to think that you could be right. Something has been bothering me about Shallan and the Davar family in general. We know so little of what is happening with them and the way they all go dark. I am starting to think that not only Shallan but her whole family was touched by Sja-anat. 

The way Lin is constantly described as having a darkness in him and changes drastically personality wise throughout the flashbacks. The way Balat was tearing things apart, and Jushu and Wikim. It could be that with the brothers this was just grief but with Lin I definately think something was influencing him.

It will be interesting to see how the brothers see shallan from others points of views as she in unreliable as a narrator. It will definitely help us know more about this

[Varion]

Another thought provoking thread @Wit Beyond Measure. Upvote for 'Sha-Sja' :-)

Sja-anat's potential defection from Odium was one of the most infuriatingly devious little tricks Sanderson pulled in OB. The question of whether she is trustworthy is going to a burr in my mind until the next book. After reading OB I had a spectrum of four basic possibilities in my head for her:

1. She can be fully trusted, because she has developed enough self-awareness and intelligence to decide independently that she must oppose Odium;
2. She can be somewhat trusted, because her current motivations somehow put her at odds with Odium (I'm thinking about her apparent devotion to her 'children', Glys in particular, and what an Odium victory might mean for them -- but I haven't really fleshed this idea out yet);
3. She is somewhat untrustworthy, by which I mean that she is a dangerous agent loyal to Odium, but fairly easy to see through, and unable to fool Shallan;
4. She is fully untrustworthy, with the abilities of a double-agent super-spy, able to completely infiltrate the KR, win them over and sabotage them from within. 

Of these options, I feel like 2 is the most likely, followed by 4. I favour 2, mainly because option 4 scares me so much, but also because of this quote from the Diagram about the Unmade:

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“One is almost certainly a traitor to the others.”

—Paragraph 27

Words of Radiance - Chapter 86 epigraph

I think 1 and 3 are unlikely, mainly because they are the least narratively interesting paths for Brandon to take.

Your theory effectively adds a 5th option, namely that she already has infiltrated the KR and is actively sabotaging them, by corrupting Shallan/Pattern (and by inference, also Renarin/Glys). 

I can certainly follow your thought process, and see how you came to suspect that Sja-anat had corrupted Shallan (or is in the process of doing so). I still think options 2 and 4 are more likely, but let's talk through this a little.

First, we have to question whether it's even possible for Sja-anat to corrupt humans. Sja-anat was historically only ever been able to corrupt lesser spren. Glys is the exception, but it seems that this is so far an isolated incident, and that corrupting higher spren is at the upper limit of her powers. I concede that it is possible that Sja-anat could have developed her powers further since the Recreance, and may now be powerful enough to corrupt humans. I don't personally believe it, but let's say it's true, just for argument's sake. What would direct corruption of a human look like? What do you think the effects of that corruption are and how do you think it would work?

If we assume that it would work similarly to how she corrupts spren, then that should have very clear effects, just as the spren who have been corrupted are very noticeably corrupted. For example, Sja-anat's corruption of spren leads to a visible change in their manifestation in the Physical Realm (and presumably in the Cognitive Realm too) but I really don't see anything comparable to that in Shallan. 

Another effect, at least for lower spren, appears to some level of mind control, which at the very least makes the spren loyal to Sja-anat. The example, the corrupted river spren that Dalinar sees in one of his first visions in WoK. This presumably gives Sja-anat an army of spies and scouts, which squares with her "Secret Taker" name. We do not know what the connection is like between Sja-anat and Glys, whether he has any loyalty to her, or whether they are in communication. What is clear though, is that Renarin has access to a mix of surgebinding and voidbinding surges, thanks to Glys' corruption. So should we expect to see either of these effects, mind control or voidish powers, in Shallan? Once again, I see no evidence or anything like that.

Shallan certainly has a lot going on inside her head, but there's nothing that can't be more easily explained by normal human psychological responses to a traumatic childhood, interacting with her burgeoning Lightweaver powers. Powers which, incidentally, show no signs of voidbinding. The only clear instances of external influence on Shallan's mind have been her direct interactions with the Unmade, first in Urithiru, and the in Kholinar. But these seem to be the standard way the Unmade interact with humans, and there is no indication that Sja-anat's communication with her was anything more than the Unmade version of a conversation. 

I also don't see any evidence that Sja-anat have had any contact prior to Kholinar. The surprise Sja-anat showed in the mirror is more easily explained as the shock of seeing a Radiant in a well-defended stronghold of three Unmade. The second contact, in the cult parade, shows no sign of familiarity -- Shallan simply noted that the voice stood out relative to the Revel's voice. And when she hears the voice again, outside the Oathgate, it shouldn't be a surprise that she realises that she'd heard it before. 

So if Sja-anat hasn't already corrupted Shallan, could she be working towards it? Maybe. But why then all the attempts to gain her trust? If she does have the power to corrupt her with her touch, why would she need to prove that she wants to help her, and is trying to work against Odium? I

 

[Wit Beyond Measure]

Thanks, @Varion!  I appreciate your input. 

I'm not sure what a corrupted person would look like, though Shallan quotes Hessi as saying that there were stories of the Unmade corrupting people (Page 756 of OB).  The context being all about Sja-anat, I assumed Shallan meant Sja specifically when saying "the Unmade" but perhaps she meant "one of the Unmade."

I really am uncertain when it comes to Shallan and Sja-anat.  Storms, I am intrigued and confused!  I tend to expect a combination of 4 and 5, but it could be any of the possibilities you've mentioned.

For the one traitor to the others, I thought that would be the Dustbringers being traitors to Knights Radiant and humanity, since I think Dustbringers might be the real Voidbringers.  If not Dustbringers, I would think Sja-anat would be the best known candidate.

[RShara]

Brandon has said that the color red signifies corrupted Investiture.  That's why the Fused and possessed Alethi have red eyes, and voidspren glow red.  It's why Glys is red.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/173-oathbringer-san-francisco-signing/#e8340

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FirstSelector [PENDING REVIEW]

Does red in cosmere signify one Shard co-opting or corrupting another Shard's magic?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Yes.

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A spren rose from his back, bright red, shimmering like the heat of a mirage. A crystalline structure, like a snowflake, though it dripped light upward toward the ceiling. In her pouch, she carried a sketch of the proper spren of the Truthwatchers.

And this was something different.

A description of Ym's spren from WoR.

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The spren had been coming more often lately—specks of light, like those from a piece of crystal suspended in a sunbeam. He did not know its type, as he had never seen one like it before.

It moved across the surface of the workbench, slinking closer. When it stopped, light crept upward from it, like small plants growing or climbing from their burrows. When it moved again, those withdrew.

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It shied away, like a reflection off a mirror—translucent, really just a shimmer of light.

He withdrew his hand and waited. The spren inched forward—tentative, like a cremling creeping out of its crack after a storm. It stopped, and light grew upward from it in the shape of tiny sprouts. Such an odd sight.

So Glys looks mostly like a regular Truthwatcher spren, except red, and its light acts a bit differently (shimmer like the heat of a mirage vs a shimmer of light; dripped light upward toward the ceiling vs light growing upward like small plants).

We have seen other Cryptics, both in Shadesmar and in the Physical Realm (Hoid's cryptic in the epilogue).  Pattern was in Shadesmar with Shallan, and none of the other spren or Cryptics noticed anything wrong with her or Pattern, nor have they exhibited any redness.

 

Shallan has also already manifested both normal Lightweaver surges:  Lightweaving and Soulcasting.  Renarin isn't able to Lightweave, but is able to use Progression.  Instead of being able to make illusions, he's able to see the future.

 

I'm certain that the "One will certainly be a traitor to the others" is the same "Traitor" mentioned on the back cover.

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The Traitor, broken by ambition, seeks freedom.

Shallan is certainly not broken by ambition, nor does she seek freedom.  The closest match to this description is Venli.  In her ambition, she brought back Odium, the Fused, and the Everstorm.  Now, she wants to be free of him, regrets her decisions, and has bonded Timbre.  She wants the Listeners to be able to make their own choices (freedom).  The epigraph in question has no context, so we have no proof that it is related to the Unmade at all.  The epigraph on the previous chapter refers to either Renarin or Hoid, the one after talks about the Blackthorn.

 

For whether Shallan herself is corrupted, we don't know what a corrupted person looks like, but presumably, when they use Investiture, it would also be corrupted, i.e. red, which Shallan has not done.  The rest, I agree with Varion's post above about why Sja-anat is surprised, etc etc.

Edited December 29, 2017 by RShara

[insert_anagram_here]

I still think that Cryptics could be a different kind of spren, than what the rest of the nahel spren are to the Knight Radiant orders. They appear to have a logical mind instead of being drawn to emotions, so after the Day of Recreance and the KR betrayal it's possible they are manipulating the people they nahel bond with, instead of offering blind trust in the oath (This could be why we haven't witnessed Shallan swearing the first ideal). It would make sense that they would target Elhokar as well, since he was the Kholinar king.

Either way Odium corruption isn't always evident with red eyes. We had a lot of cases in the past where people were corrupted by the Unmade and I'm pretty sure they didn't have red eyes.

Edited December 29, 2017 by insert_anagram_here

[+Hoiditthroughthegrapevine]

Awesome post and great collection of quotes @Wit Beyond Measure. Nice enumeration of the possible states of trustworthiness of Sja-anat @Varion.

I think that all of Shallan's interactions with Sja-anat are foreshadowing for the upcoming mission that Shallan will have in book 4, to deal with Sja-anat.

Here's the cliffnotes summary of the brewing conflict in OB:

Shallan, mentally unstable and teetering on the brink of personality disassociation, is contacted directly by the Unmade that was feared most by the old Knights Radiants, most likely for Sja-anat's ability to corrupt people and spren. Sja-anat alerts Shallan to a trap (that she was obviously involved in setting up) and professes her desire to defect. Then Shallan receives a letter from Mraize that contains her next assignment for the Ghostbloods:

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Your next mission is equally important. One of the Unmade seems willing to break from Odium. Our good and that of your Radiant friends align. You will find this Unmade, and you will persuade it to serve the Ghostbloods. Barring that, you will capture it and deliver it to us.

I think as you pointed out in your OP, it's incredibly interesting to have these two being setup for an upcoming confrontation. In a lot of ways they are the inverse of each other, just like how Sja-anat appears as a photo negative-like reflection of Shallan in the mirror (black form with white eyes). The hider of secrets taking on the Taker of Secrets. The one who uses transformation to help people change to be closer to their ideal self vs the one who corrupts, twists and deforms. Very interesting setup indeed, and the involvement of the Ghostbloods ups the stakes substantially. Can't wait to see how this plays out in book 4!

[Wit Beyond Measure]

Thank you, @hoiditthroughthegrapevine and everyone responding!  I was quite hesitant to post when I wasn't sure what to conclude about Shallan.  I am still somewhat unsure but so greatly enlightened by all of the responses giving such brilliant insights into Shallan's history, current state of mind, and the setup for her future trajectory.  Explaining Sja-anat as the mirror image of Shallan rather than possessing her is a terrific analogy.  I love it!

Edited December 29, 2017 by Wit Beyond Measure

[Varion]

Lots of great points coming through from everyone. Let me try to engage with them quickly

@Wit Beyond Measure, regarding Sja-anat's ability to corrupt people:

13 hours ago, Wit Beyond Measure said:

I'm not sure what a corrupted person would look like, though Shallan quotes Hessi as saying that there were stories of the Unmade corrupting people (Page 756 of OB).  The context being all about Sja-anat, I assumed Shallan meant Sja specifically when saying "the Unmade" but perhaps she meant "one of the Unmade."

You are quite right, I hadn't thought about this. Here's the direct quote:

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"Hessi reports stories of the Unmade not only corrupting spren, but corrupting people," Shallan was saying. "Maybe that's what's happening with the palace. We'll know more after infiltrating the cult tonight."

Oathbringer, Chapter 77 - Stormshelter. p 757 US Hardcover edition.

I agree that this does leave open the possibility that Sja-anat can corrupt humans. The context is important though, so here's how the conversation developed on the previous page:

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  "The book," Shallan said, "claims there were nine Unmade. That matches the vision Dalinar saw, though other reports speak of ten Unmade. They're likely ancient spren, primal, from the days before human society and civilization."
   "The book claims the nine rampaged during the Desolations, but says not all were destroyed at Aharietiam. The author insists that some are active today; I find her vindicated--obviously--by what we've experienced."
   "And there's one of these in the city," Adolin said.
   "I think ..." Shallan said. "I think there might be two, Adolin. Sja-anat, the Taker of Secrets, is one. Again, Dalinar's visions mention her. Sja-anat's touch corrupted other spren--and we're seeing the effects of that here."
   "And the other one?" Adolin asked.
   "Ashertmarn," Shallan said softly. She slipped a little knife from her satchel and began to absently carve at the top of the table. "The Heart of the Revel. The book has less to say about him, though it speaks of how it leads people to indulge in excess."
   "Two Unmade," Kaladin said. "Are you sure?"
   "Sure as I can be. Wit confirmed the second, and the way the queen acted leading up to the riots seems an obvious sign. As for the Taker of Secrets, we can see the corrupted spren ourselves."

Oathbringer, Chapter 77 - Stormshelter. p 756 US Hardcover edition.

In the light of this, I think it's clear that Shallan's comments about the Unmade corrupting people refer to Ashertmarn, not Sja-anat. Of course, we later learn that a third Unmade, Yelig-nar, is also present, and there's little doubt that he 'corrupts' the queen. 

Looking at what Hessi actually says about Sja-anat in the illustration that precedes this chapter, Hessi only ever mentions spren:

Quote

Sja-anat: The Taker of Secrets
Sja-anat, creator and corrupter - unique among the Unmade.

Creator
Her twisted creations are her beloved children. Her admiration of the spren of our world inspires her.

Corrupter
She seeks the Children of Honor and the Children of Cultivation. With one touch she corrupts.

Illustration: Page from Mythica - The Taker of Secrets, Oathrbinger, p 752

And from Hessi's commentary:

Quote

Of the Unmade, Sja-anat was most feared by the Radiants. They spoke extensively of her ability to corrupt spren, though only - "lesser" spren - whatever that means.
— From Hessi's Mythica, page 89

Oathbringer chapter 97 epigraph

---

Which suggests to me that whatever stories of Unmade corrupting people that Hessi reports in Mythica, they do not refer to Sja-anat. It's easy to see how the stories about the effects of Ashertmarn, Yelig-nar, and also Nergaoul (the Thrill), could be interpreted as "corrupting" people. 

 

@insert_anagram_here, @Wit Beyond Measure, and @RShara, regarding the corruption of Pattern:

I completely agree with Rshara here (upvote for the very useful analysis, btw). Pattern has not been corrupted. Once again, I see Shallan's mental state (and the mental states of her brothers) as purely a psychological response to childhood trauma. Her ability to partition her personality is defence mechanism, which is complicated and amplified by Shallan's ability to externally manifest these personalities through Lightweaving. Brandon went to great length, and graphic description, to detail the traumas that Shallan and her brothers faced. I don't think we need to go searching for any other supernatural explanations for her present psychology.

 

@RShara, @Wit Beyond Measure and @hoiditthroughthegrapevine regarding "the Traitor"

I agree that the traitor mentioned on the back cover is Venli. I don't think that is in dispute. But the traitor mentioned in the Diagram epigraphs in WoR was almost certainly referencing an Unmade, and is therefore a completely different traitor. If you group the epigraphs together based on where they came from the Diagram, then you'll see that this quote was part of the Book of the Second Desk Drawer, a section devoted to the Unmade. We have three quotes from this section, which are handily gathered together on Coppermind:

Quote

Book of the 2nd Desk Drawer

“The Unmade are a deviation, a flair, a conundrum that may not be worth your time. You cannot help but think of them. They are fascinating. Many are mindless. Like the spren of human emotions, only much more nasty. I do believe a few can think, however.”

—Paragraph 14

“There is one you will watch. Though all of them have some relevance to precognition, Moelach is one of the most powerful in this regard. His touch seeps into a soul as it breaks apart from the body, creating manifestations powered by the spark of death itself. But no, this is a distraction. Deviation. Kingship. We must discuss the nature of kingship.”

—Paragraph 15

“One is almost certainly a traitor to the others.”

—Paragraph 27

Source: https://coppermind.net/wiki/Diagram

Plus, the fact that the Ghostbloods seem to have information about an Unmade ready to defect (as @hoiditthroughthegrapevine reminded us), further confirms that there are two traitors -- Venli and one of the Unmade. And since Sja-anat has said onscreen that she wants to help Shallan, I think it's very safe to conclude that she's the one being referred to.

Whether we can trust her defection, or whether she is trying to infiltrate the KR for Odium remains to be seen (although as I said earlier, I am leaning towards believing that she is sincere, if not 100% trustworthy).

Edited December 29, 2017 by Varion
Posted accidentally before finishing - post is now complete

[Elerubard]

13 hours ago, RShara said:

Brandon has said that the color red signifies corrupted Investiture.  That's why the Fused and possessed Alethi have red eyes, and voidspren glow red.  It's why Glys is red.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/173-oathbringer-san-francisco-signing/#e8340

A description of Ym's spren from WoR.

So Glys looks mostly like a regular Truthwatcher spren, except red, and its light acts a bit differently (shimmer like the heat of a mirage vs a shimmer of light; dripped light upward toward the ceiling vs light growing upward like small plants).

We have seen other Cryptics, both in Shadesmar and in the Physical Realm (Hoid's cryptic in the epilogue).  Pattern was in Shadesmar with Shallan, and none of the other spren or Cryptics noticed anything wrong with her or Pattern, nor have they exhibited any redness.

 

Shallan has also already manifested both normal Lightweaver surges:  Lightweaving and Soulcasting.  Renarin isn't able to Lightweave, but is able to use Progression.  Instead of being able to make illusions, he's able to see the future.

 

I'm certain that the "One will certainly be a traitor to the others" is the same "Traitor" mentioned on the back cover.

Shallan is certainly not broken by ambition, nor does she seek freedom.  The closest match to this description is Venli.  In her ambition, she brought back Odium, the Fused, and the Everstorm.  Now, she wants to be free of him, regrets her decisions, and has bonded Timbre.  She wants the Listeners to be able to make their own choices (freedom).  The epigraph in question has no context, so we have no proof that it is related to the Unmade at all.  The epigraph on the previous chapter refers to either Renarin or Hoid, the one after talks about the Blackthorn.

 

For whether Shallan herself is corrupted, we don't know what a corrupted person looks like, but presumably, when they use Investiture, it would also be corrupted, i.e. red, which Shallan has not done.  The rest, I agree with Varion's post above about why Sja-anat is surprised, etc etc.

Didn't Pattern glow red as a shardblade in WoR? 

[RShara]

12 minutes ago, Crazy1993 said:

Didn't Pattern glow red as a shardblade in WoR? 

When Shallan summons him as a Shardblade in the chasms, it glows garnet for a minute.  Garnet is the Lightweaver polestone.

Quote

Kaladin stared at the glistening length of metal, which dripped with condensation from its summoning. It glowed softly the color of garnet along several faint lines down its length.

 

[Elerubard]

11 minutes ago, RShara said:

When Shallan summons him as a Shardblade in the chasms, it glows garnet for a minute.  Garnet is the Lightweaver polestone.

 

.... Garnet is usually a dark red. Don't misunderstand me, I don't think Pattern is corrupted. I'm just looking for clarification on what shades of red would mark subverted Investiture like what we see in Glys and the thing at the end of Bands.

Edited December 29, 2017 by Crazy1993

[Dreamstorm]

3 hours ago, Varion said:

Once again, I see Shallan's mental state (and the mental states of her brothers) as purely a psychological response to childhood trauma. Her ability to partition her personality is defence mechanism, which is complicated and amplified by Shallan's ability to externally manifest these personalities through Lightweaving. Brandon went to great length, and graphic description, to detail the traumas that Shallan and her brothers faced. I don't think we need to go searching for any other supernatural explanations for her present psychology.

While I don’t think Shallan is corrupted per se, I think there’s a good chance she’s being influenced by a force connected to Odium. (I think it’s hard to rule that out for any of our characters absent a WoB to the contrary.) With respect to at least one Davar brother, however, we know he is subject to some sort of negative force per the WoB below. Whether he’s considered corrupted or not, who knows (and I’m not sure the line between corrupted, a la Yelig-nar, and influenced, a la the Thrill, is clearly drawn, since I don’t see Young Dalinar as corrupted, but I bet others do), but it seems logical to surmise a magical enhancement that causes him to brutally kill animals is in some way of Odium.

Quote

Questioner

There's a scene where you can see from the perspective of Nan Balat, Shallan's brother, where he's maiming an insect. It's described as soothing his aches. Is that in any way related to how Kaladin feels depressed and down during the Weeping even in his early childhood?

Brandon Sanderson

What's happening to Nan Balat is magically enhanced. What's happening to Kaladin is mostly just chemical depression. Be he is really too young to be diagnosed with depression during some of these events, but he's got the seeds in there. So Kaladin is not magically depressed. Kaladin is just legitimatly a person with depression. Nan Balat... What's up with him is... ah... being exaggerated by certain forces moving in on Roshar. (last bit is a bit indistinctive)

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/122-leipzig-book-fair/#e3333

 

[RShara]

Well, we have 3 colors in play here.  We have "red" we have "ruby" and we have "garnet".  I feel like the Rosharans are sensitive enough to gem color, and color in general, to be able to distinguish between the three.  Otherwise soulcasting with ruby and garnet would be really iffy.  Garnet, on Roshar is a dark red, yes.

Red as #FF0000

[Varion]

2 hours ago, Dreamstorm said:

While I don’t think Shallan is corrupted per se, I think there’s a good chance she’s being influenced by a force connected to Odium. (I think it’s hard to rule that out for any of our characters absent a WoB to the contrary.) With respect to at least one Davar brother, however, we know he is subject to some sort of negative force per the WoB below. Whether he’s considered corrupted or not, who knows (and I’m not sure the line between corrupted, a la Yelig-nar, and influenced, a la the Thrill, is clearly drawn, since I don’t see Young Dalinar as corrupted, but I bet others do), but it seems logical to surmise a magical enhancement that causes him to brutally kill animals is in some way of Odium.

Quote

Questioner

There's a scene where you can see from the perspective of Nan Balat, Shallan's brother, where he's maiming an insect. It's described as soothing his aches. Is that in any way related to how Kaladin feels depressed and down during the Weeping even in his early childhood?

Brandon Sanderson

What's happening to Nan Balat is magically enhanced. What's happening to Kaladin is mostly just chemical depression. Be he is really too young to be diagnosed with depression during some of these events, but he's got the seeds in there. So Kaladin is not magically depressed. Kaladin is just legitimatly a person with depression. Nan Balat... What's up with him is... ah... being exaggerated by certain forces moving in on Roshar. (last bit is a bit indistinctive)

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/122-leipzig-book-fair/#e3333

 

Thanks @Dreamstorm, I wasn't aware of this WoB. Very interesting. Two details jump out to me from this quote. Firstly, Brandon uses the words "enhanced" and "exaggerated", which suggests that Nan Balat already had a problem with animal cruelty, and the magic is somehow amplifying it. Secondly, the phrase "certain forces moving in on Roshar". Not moving on Roshar, moving in on Roshar. Of course, that could just be an ambiguity of the transcription (it did say it was indistinct), but if it is accurate, then it's a peculiar choice of words by Brandon. Could it refer to some external "forces"? A group of cosmere-aware world-hoppers, for example, with an interest in the Davar family and potential access to exotic magic systems, perhaps? Do the Ghostbloods have a Soother in their ranks? Unlikely, but I'll just leave that thought hanging ...

It's more probable that he is referring to the Unmade, but the only one that I could find that could possibly fit is Dai-gonarthis, the Black Fisher, who we know very little about beyond this death rattle from WoK:

Quote

Let me no longer hurt! Let me no longer weep! Dai-gonarthis! The Black Fisher holds my sorrow and consumes it! ”
— Tanatesach 1173, 28 seconds pre-death. A darkeyed female street juggler. Note similarity to sample 1172-89.

Way of Kings, Chapter 67 Epigraph

This is the best hint we have of Dai-gonarthis' effects, but it does seem to fit with the way maiming animals "soothes" Balat's aches. Dai-gonarthis is only mentioned a couple of other times; in Mythica, where Hessi seems unsure whether Dia-gonarthis is the ninth Unmade, and whether it was the cause of the destruction of Aimia (Oathbringer Chapter 113 epigraph); and by Jezrien, in the guise of the drunk Ahu, in this intriguing exchange with Dalinar:

Quote

   "Which one got to you, little child?" Ahu asked. "The Black Fisher? The Spawning Mother, The Faceless? Moeloch is close. I can hear his wheezing, his scratching, his scraping at time like a rat through the walls."
   "I have no idea what you're talking about."
   "Madness," Ahu said, then giggled. "I used to think it wasn't my fault. But you know, we can't escape what we did? We let them in. We attracted them, befriended them, took them out to the dance and courted them. It is our fault. Your open yourself to it and you pay the price. They ripped my brain out and made it dance! I watched." 

Oathbringer, Chapter 88, Voices. p.853 US Hardcover edition

That raises more questions than it answers*, but it does at least seem to confirm that Dai-gonarthis is an Unmade, and that it is potentially active in Roshar. 

*One question it raises: Who is Jezrien referring to in the last paragraph? He was talking about the Unmade immediately beforehand, but do we trust his mind enough to have followed that train of thought through? And if so, what are the implications of this admission for the origins of the Unmade? It's too ambiguous to be certain, but it's a quote worth bookmarking for later. 

 

 

[Wit Beyond Measure]

Woohoo!  Thank you, all.  Through your amazing insights and analysis and related ideas, as well as a quote in another thread, I've found my answer to the question that spawned the discussion.  This certainly may not be your answer, and my answer may even change, but I feel like it is a decent theory, at least.  So....

Shallan: Simply Psycho or Seriously Corrupted?

Yes.

Say what?

Yes, Shallan is simply psycho, as @insert_anagram_here brilliantly shows.  We should never have expected otherwise, really, of this ferocious child killer posing successfully as a precocious, naive babe.  She killed her mama and her mama's lover in what must have been a violent and bloody struggle for survival.  And then Daddy sang her a little lullaby and it was all better.  (Umm, not.)  And then she strangled Daddy with the pretty little necklace he bought her while singing him back that same sweet lullaby, putting him to sleep.  Forever.

And then Pattern tells her over and over and over that she has to confess and own her truths.  This is really Psych 101 since denial is the first or second stage of grief.  You can never get over something and heal if you don't admit it happened in the first place.  Shallan pointedly ignores Pattern's pleas.  And so the wounds fester.  And fester.  And fester.  

Wit tells her that Shallan must make her own self stronger in order to overcome her personality fragmentation.  Shallan builds these fake personalities on top of herself like some inverted cheerleading pyramid with only her true self at the bottom, supporting all of the fake Shallan's.  Instead of following Wit's advice to strengthen her true self, though, she opts to strengthen the top of the pyramid instead, with the bottom support of the entire pyramid remaining terribly weak.  Of course it will all come tumbling down!  D'uh.  This is Physics 101.

And yet, is that the end of the story?

Quote

Questioner

There's a scene where you can see from the perspective of Nan Balat, Shallan's brother, where he's maiming an insect. It's described as soothing his aches. Is that in any way related to how Kaladin feels depressed and down during the Weeping even in his early childhood?

Brandon Sanderson

What's happening to Nan Balat is magically enhanced. What's happening to Kaladin is mostly just chemical depression. Be he is really too young to be diagnosed with depression during some of these events, but he's got the seeds in there. So Kaladin is not magically depressed. Kaladin is just legitimatly a person with depression. Nan Balat... What's up with him is... ah... being exaggerated by certain forces moving in on Roshar. (last bit is a bit indistinctive)

Yes, Shallan is also seriously corrupted. In much the same way that Nan Balat's sociopathy is magically enhanced by certain forces, plural, we see Shallan's psychopathy being magically enhanced by forces, as well, at least IMO.  Yes, we can start to see the cracks in Shallan in WoK and WoR, and we suspect that they will be growing.  However, Shallan's decline unexpectedly accelerates (slip-sliding faster than Lift in a buffet line) during the tower scenes when influenced by the Midnight Mother, and again in Kholinar in the presence of three Unmade, and again during the Thaylen City battle with multiple Unmade.  These three points seem to be, by far, Shallan at her weakest. 

Is this timing a coincidence?  I think not. 

Several or even all Unmade could be corrupting Shallan, not just Sja-anat.  Sja-anat will still be terribly special to Shallan, though, for all of the magnificently articulated reasons @hoiditthroughthegrapevine gives, but she is not the only corrupting influence, it seems.

Edited December 30, 2017 by Wit Beyond Measure

[RShara]

But see.  Corrupted by is different than influenced by.  Corruption is what we see with Glys, Amaram, Aesudan, and so forth.  Influenced by is what we see with Dalinar, Sadeas, and the others that are affected by the Thrill. If we call Shallan corrupted, we'd have to call Dalinar corrupted, since he's been far more influenced by Odium for a much longer time.

[Varion]

1 hour ago, RShara said:

But see.  Corrupted by is different than influenced by.  Corruption is what we see with Glys, Amaram, Aesudan, and so forth.  Influenced by is what we see with Dalinar, Sadeas, and the others that are affected by the Thrill. If we call Shallan corrupted, we'd have to call Dalinar corrupted, since he's been far more influenced by Odium for a much longer time.

This exactly. We really need to keep our definitions in line with the cannon usage, or these discussions will just keep going in circles.

Here's my (very) quick stab at defining these terms:

Corrupted: a spren or human or parshendi who has suffered some permanent (possibly reversible) alteration to one or more of their physical, cognitive or spiritual aspects, as a result of direct magical interference, in order to fundamentally change and/or control them in some way counter to their natural state.

Influenced: a spren or human or parshendi who has had some pre-existing feature of their physical and/or cognitive and/or spiritual aspects dulled or enhanced through direct magical interference in order to alter their behaviour and decisions in a way that favourable to an external agent. The primary changes will only occur as long as the magical interference acts upon them, although the resulting actions may cause secondary physical and psychologic effects, which may be long lasting or permanent. 

Manipulated: a spren, human or parshendi who has had their beliefs, behaviours, decisions, actions and psychological state altered through indirect magical and non-magical methods in order to favour some external agent. The effects may be immediate, short term, long-term or permanent. 

And again for the record, I don't believe Shallan has been corrupted in any way. She has definitely felt the influence of multiple Unmade, although I would argue that she has so far been able to resist these influences. And it's still uo in the air as to whether Sja-anat is trying to manipulate her, or whether she is sincere about wanting to defect from Odium. 

[RShara]

3 hours ago, Varion said:

This exactly. We really need to keep our definitions in line with the cannon usage, or these discussions will just keep going in circles.

Here's my (very) quick stab at defining these terms:

Corrupted: a spren or human or parshendi who has suffered some permanent (possibly reversible) alteration to one or more of their physical, cognitive or spiritual aspects, as a result of direct magical interference, in order to fundamentally change and/or control them in some way counter to their natural state.

Influenced: a spren or human or parshendi who has had some pre-existing feature of their physical and/or cognitive and/or spiritual aspects dulled or enhanced through direct magical interference in order to alter their behaviour and decisions in a way that favourable to an external agent. The primary changes will only occur as long as the magical interference acts upon them, although the resulting actions may cause secondary physical and psychologic effects, which may be long lasting or permanent. 

Manipulated: a spren, human or parshendi who has had their beliefs, behaviours, decisions, actions and psychological state altered through indirect magical and non-magical methods in order to favour some external agent. The effects may be immediate, short term, long-term or permanent. 

And again for the record, I don't believe Shallan has been corrupted in any way. She has definitely felt the influence of multiple Unmade, although I would argue that she has so far been able to resist these influences. And it's still uo in the air as to whether Sja-anat is trying to manipulate her, or whether she is sincere about wanting to defect from Odium. 

That is a FANTASTIC set of definitions.  I think Shallan fits firmly under Influenced or Manipulated, not Corrupted.  And I agree that she's been quite resistent to both influence and manipulation.