What is wrong with Renarin?(full book)

[Awesomeness Summoned]

Where is the Truthwatcher paragraph? I don't recall seeing it so i was beginning to assume Renarin might have a voidspren...

There is also the fact that he outright states he is a truthwatcher at the very end when the new KR declare themselves to each other.

 

"I thought it was me," Renarin whispered. "My mind. But Glys, he says..." Renarin blinked. "Truthwatcher."

Edited March 6, 2014 by Awesomeness Summoned

[FeatherWriter]

I guess I'm saying, that having worked with a multitude of Spectrum Kids where he aits isn't a very debilitating place to be. Just eccentric. The siesures are his only real issue. (I wouldn't call fidgeting with a box stimming though either... My experience with Stimming has always been more severe and entirely attention grabbing. Trying to do line therapy with a kid that only wants to stim is miserable...) Renarin isn't doing anything you're average ADD case wouldn't do. So we can't blame his lack of nuerotypicallity for much. Just siezures we've lkterally never seen.

 

We actually do see one of his seizures. In the middle of the duel at the end of Part 3. I'm pretty sure it's Dalinar who notices, but he definitely mentions that Renarin is having "one of his fits." His shoulder starts pulling upward involuntarily.

 

I'm not trying to be argumentative, but I'm curious. If you wouldn't call his behavior with the box or with his rocking back and forth stimming, what would you call that? Soothing repetitive behavior that is mostly unconscious is... pretty much my definition of stimming. 

[Aminar]

I'd call it fidgeting. As in moving to move. It's a common thing for people in general. Stimming isn't fidgeting to keep focus, it's a state of pure and utter distraction due to sensory overload. Stimming is a problem, a negative thing. Fidgeting is less so.

And Renarin says it wasn't a siesure later in the book. According to him it was his blade screaming at him. Around when he says he thought it was just him.

[FeatherWriter]

Actually, Renarin freezing up in the middle of the battle (when he goes to oversee a plateau run) is what he says wasn't a seizure later. The seizure in the duel is never disputed. I'm pretty sure the screaming is what triggered the seizure, as that was a very high-stress environment for him. Still a seizure though, even when it's triggered by outside influences.

 

As for the stimming terminology, I suppose we'll just disagree on those terms. I'm just using the terms that my ASD friends have used, and I defer to their judgment here. I've talked to two of the main consultants on Renarin's behavior about him and they both used the word stimming to refer to both their own personal coping behaviors and Renarin's behaviors in the book. 

[Aminar]

Actually, Renarin freezing up in the middle of the battle (when he goes to oversee a plateau run) is what he says wasn't a seizure later. The seizure in the duel is never disputed. I'm pretty sure the screaming is what triggered the seizure, as that was a very high-stress environment for him. Still a seizure though, even when it's triggered by outside influences.

 

As for the stimming terminology, I suppose we'll just disagree on those terms. I'm just using the terms that my ASD friends have used, and I defer to their judgment here. I've talked to two of the main consultants on Renarin's behavior about him and they both used the word stimming to refer to both their own personal coping behaviors and Renarin's behaviors in the book.

That's more the fault of our mental health system. They/we use a profoundly negative term to describe a minor coping mechanism and a serious issue, branding them the same thing. His use of the box is no different than my grandmother rolling tape between her fingers, or the fact I was playing with a purple clothespin for the last half hour while I browsed the forums.

I guess what I'm getting at is that it's bad practice to use minor differences from the norm such as ADHD or Renarin's slightly atypical nervous system as anything like an excuse for their actions. It bothers me in real life, and so by proxy it bothers me here despite the fact it won't change Renarin at all. Renarin is perfectly capable of functioning normally, so we should assume he does so as much as any other character.

[Aleksiel]

It bothered me that it wasn't stated which order are those Truthwatchers. What surges do they posses exactly? 

[Seerow]

It bothered me that it wasn't stated which order are those Truthwatchers. What surges do they posses exactly? 

 

Judging by this, my guess is Truthwatchers are the Unknown order on the right side (between Stonewardens and Elsecallers). Which gives him the Transportation Surge, and one that is yet unknown (likely to do with seeing the future). The only other possibility is Illumination+Growth, which doesn't seem to fit at all.

[Azul]

The strongest evidence of where Truecallers fall is chapter 89 'The Four' with the Herald faces being:

 

Jezrien (Windrunners - Kaladin)

Shalash (Lightbringers - Shallan)

Ishar (Bondsmith - Dalinar)

Pailiah (Truthcallers - Renarin)

[FeatherWriter]

Yeah, the coppermind currently has Truthwatchers as Order #5, with the surges of Growth and Illumination. I'm not sure how accurate that is, but it seems like a good guess.

[Aleksiel]

Huh... I thought #5 would be the Willshapers since they posses the Illumination surge that could will an illusion to life. 

[Awesomeness Summoned]

The most recent chart with the updated likeliest orders and their surges is HERE

Cohesion fits better with shaping people's will and illumination fits better with truths. Plus, most of the bottom half of the chart seems to relate to Cultivation and the top half to Honor. Cultivation is better at seeing the future than Honor

Edited March 6, 2014 by Awesomeness Summoned

[FeatherWriter]

Should "Releasers" be something else? Isn't that where Dustbringers should go? And around the circle our surges are:

• Adhesion
• Gravitation
• Division
• Abrasion
• Progression
• Illumination
• Transformation
• Transportation (not Teleportation)
• Cohesion
• Tension

Other than that, the chart looks excellent!

[Edgedancer]

Should "Releasers" be something else? Isn't that where Dustbringers should go? And around the circle our surges are:

The excerpts talk about the Dustbringers calling themselfs Releasers to avoid similarity to Voidbringers, thats where the name comes from.

[Shadow Guardian]

It's probably listed as "Releasers" because of this epigraph:

 

"And when they were spoken of by the common folk, the Releasers claimed to be misjudged because of the dreadful nature of their power; and when they dealt with others, always were they firm in their claim that other epithets, notably “Dustbringers,” often heard in the common speech, were unacceptable substitutions, in particular for their similarity to the word “Voidbringers.” They did also exercise anger in great prejudice regarding it, though to many who speak, there was little difference between these two assemblies.

—From Words of Radiance, chapter 17, page 11"

 

Edit: Ninja'd

Edited March 6, 2014 by Shadow Guardian

[junior]

The most recent chart with the updated likeliest orders and their surges is HERE

Cohesion fits better with shaping people's will and illumination fits better with truths. Plus, most of the bottom half of the chart seems to relate to Cultivation and the top half to Honor. Cultivation is better at seeing the future than Honor

 

Regarding the chart...

 

When Kaladin gains Syl's weapon form, it's mentioned that a rune appears behind him in the shape of wings.  And when he arrives on the battlefield to confront Szeth, it's mentioned that a rune briefly appears in front of him in the shape of a sword.

 

If you look carefully at the symbol that's been labeled as Windrunners, you see what could be a stylized sword rune in the middle of a stylized wings extended rune.

[FeatherWriter]

Ah, right. I remember that about the Releasers now. Thanks.

[Lomeon]

Regarding the chart...

 

When Kaladin gains Syl's weapon form, it's mentioned that a rune appears behind him in the shape of wings.  And when he arrives on the battlefield to confront Szeth, it's mentioned that a rune briefly appears in front of him in the shape of a sword.

 

If you look carefully at the symbol that's been labeled as Windrunners, you see what could be a stylized sword rune in the middle of a stylized wings extended rune.

 

It's also emblazoned on the cover of the hardback of WoK and on the title page to several of the parts.

 

The Lightweavers' glyph stylized as a sword is on the cover of WoR.

[junior]

It's also emblazoned on the cover of the hardback of WoK and on the title page to several of the parts.

 

The Lightweavers' glyph stylized as a sword is on the cover of WoR.

 

Nice, but kind of missing my point.  I was pointing out that parts of the Windrunner rune spontaneously appear around Kaladin during the story.

[DragonReborn]

I hate Renarin. He does not do anything useful. He just comes in at the end and is like, "Actually 4 Radiants, I am one too." even though he did nothing all book. YOUR DAD WANTS TO REFORM THE KNIGHTS RADIANT AND YOU HAVE SURBINDING ABILITIES, SO WHY DON'T YOU TELL HIM. It just makes no sense. I wish Adolin was a Knights Radiant

[Aleksiel]

I hate Renarin. He does not do anything useful. He just comes in at the end and is like, "Actually 4 Radiants, I am one too." even though he did nothing all book. YOUR DAD WANTS TO REFORM THE KNIGHTS RADIANT AND YOU HAVE SURBINDING ABILITIES, SO WHY DON'T YOU TELL HIM. It just makes no sense. I wish Adolin was a Knights Radiant

 

It's not like Dalinar ever gave him much chance. Even when he finally got him a Shardplate and allowed him on the battlefield as Renarin has long wanted, Dalinar never quite trusts Renarin's abilities. Renarin doesn't have the confidence of taking such a role - reforming the KR and I personally don't think Dalinar would have given him the cape anyway. He was willing to see Radiant anywhere, but in his son.

 

Also, we have the epigraph saying that Renarin's Order isn't famous for speaking their mind and plots, but rather keep to themselves and stay away from most people, being secretive, not explaining themselves. Which is why I definitely chose wisely their glyph as my profile picture, I'll fit right in. And Renarin as well. You obviously can not expect a Truthwatcher to spell it out for you.

 

Renarin has a long way to go to be as effective as Kaladin, but that doesn't make him any less than others. He had just bonded apparently, stormlight healing his sight somewhere in the middle of the book. He is still finding out what he can do, he just needs more time to learn how to use his powers. Kaladin couldn't walk on walls until recently, remember?

 

Renarin is very brave. He ran unarmed against a chasmfiend to help his father. He entered a duel where he might have been easily killed to help his brother when all odds were against him. He tried to help the attacked bridgemen on that plateau, but he couldn't bear the Shardblade's screaming.

 

Remember, he doesn't share much with anyone and keeps to himself. He has been put down by everyone, even his father had treated him as more of a liability. He is used to the line of thinking that something is wrong with him, that he isn't as he should be, everyone ignoring him. Of course he didn't share his problems with the Shardblade, what if Dalinar took away his shards, the possibility to fight? He couldn't risk that. And he is so very used to being treated like the problem is in him that he had started to believe it. But he will learn that he is perfect the way he is. Renarin doesn't have Adolin's confidence or Kaladin's experience. But he is eager to learn, to help, to progress. I believe he will amaze us in future books.

Edited March 6, 2014 by Aleksiel

[Swimmingly]

I hate Renarin. He does not do anything useful. He just comes in at the end and is like, "Actually 4 Radiants, I am one too." even though he did nothing all book. YOUR DAD WANTS TO REFORM THE KNIGHTS RADIANT AND YOU HAVE SURBINDING ABILITIES, SO WHY DON'T YOU TELL HIM. It just makes no sense. I wish Adolin was a Knights Radiant

Well, he was seeing the future, something ingrained deeply into Vorin culture as evil.

[shadewolf]

I hate Renarin. He does not do anything useful. He just comes in at the end and is like, "Actually 4 Radiants, I am one too." even though he did nothing all book. YOUR DAD WANTS TO REFORM THE KNIGHTS RADIANT AND YOU HAVE SURBINDING ABILITIES, SO WHY DON'T YOU TELL HIM. It just makes no sense. I wish Adolin was a Knights Radiant

 

 

He gave the initial warning.

[marianmi]

He gave the initial warning.

 

What do you mean?

[Aleksiel]

What do you mean?

 

Renarin was the one who wrote the countdown on the walls.

[FeatherWriter]

I hate Renarin. He does not do anything useful. He just comes in at the end and is like, "Actually 4 Radiants, I am one too." even though he did nothing all book. YOUR DAD WANTS TO REFORM THE KNIGHTS RADIANT AND YOU HAVE SURBINDING ABILITIES, SO WHY DON'T YOU TELL HIM. It just makes no sense. I wish Adolin was a Knights Radiant

 

You... just made me choke on my coffee actually. I just. Okay, friend. I am going to attempt to not be rude about this, but you insult Renarin, you bring the Featherstorm upon yourself.

 

So, sit down. Imma 'splain you a thing.

 

Aleksiel, Swimmngly, and Shadewolf brought up the main points, but just. Renarin. Easily one of the strongest characters in this book. And no, I'm not talking about physical strength necessarily, but his strength of will. The amount of stress and pressure that he goes through is astonishing and his ability to remain functional in the face of the kind of overwhelming opposition he is facing is nothing short of phenomenal.

 

Renarin's ASD, which means already, life is going to be quite a bit more difficult for him than it would be for normal people. There's going to be situations and everyday experiences that might not be stressful to a neurotypical person, but that are going to have an added layer of stress and difficulty for him. So that's there all day, every day. And because of this, the people around him often think he's weird or "creepy" so he's got a level of insecurity about himself that compounds on top of this. 

 

Now then, this book, we've got... he starts seeing the future. You know, that thing that Vorinism expressly forbids as a thing of the Voidbringers. I'm pretty sure he's not fully in control of himself when he starts drawing thos glyphs everywhere, so now he thinks he's cursed by the Almighty with blasphemous powers and losing control of himself during highstorms and writing which... yes they're glyphs, but on top of the the future sight, I'm pretty sure he's feeling pretty horrified by what he is doing and what's happening to him.

 

“I can see it,” Renarin answered feverishly, his voice echoing in the chamber. Ardents who had been studying part of the murals looked up at him. “I can see the future itself. Why? Why, Almighty? Why have you cursed me so?” He screamed a pleading cry, then stood and cracked something against the wall. A rock? Where had he gotten it? He gripped the thing in a gauntleted hand and began to write.

 

Theeeeen he gets a Shardblade. That is screaming in agony the entire time he touches it. Kaladin touched a Shardblade for what... a few seconds? And the opponent whose blade he touched ran screaming and babbling from the arena after that, sounding like a crazy person because hearing that scream broke him. 

 

Not so Renarin.

 

No, Renarin is stronger than that. He takes his blade with a grimace. A single freaking grimace.

 

Renarin seemed hesitant.

“Take it,” Adolin said again.

Reluctantly, Renarin did so. He grimaced as he took it.

 

And then he has to hold it for five days in order to bond it. Yeah. And then keep bringing it out to train with it. And try to use it in battle on a plateau run. Excuse you, Kaladin, you are awesome but you don't even compare to what Renarin goes through with that Blade. And on top of that he doesn't know why. HE THINKS HE'S GOING CRAZY. HE THINKS IT'S JUST HIM THE WHOLE TIME.

 

And how about that duel huh? I'm just gonna quote my response in the other thread because I pretty much said it all there.

 

That moment when Renarin joined the duel before Kaladin did without his Shardplate, with almost no training, against four fully armed Shardbearers who have bribed the judge to let them maim opponents, and oh yeah he summoned his screaming Shardblade and held his ground against expert duelist opponents through the middle of a seizure.

 

Remember when that happened? Remember when that was a thing? Kaladin touched a Shardblade for like... two seconds and could barely endure it. Renarin held his for days on end to bond it and then willingly summoned it to protect his brother. Get on Renarin's level, Kaladin.

 

Like dang. Renarin Kholin, y'all.

 

Darling. Like... I don't even have words for what he went through. There's a reason I sobbed in the last chapter of the book. For minutes on end. Because RENARIN KHOLIN IS AN IMPORTANT CHARACTER AND DANGIT SOMEONE NEEDS TO APPRECIATE HOW AMAZING HE IS AND THE THINGS HE HAS GONE THROUGH. I WILL DO IT. I WILL APPRECIATE RENARIN. AND I WILL TYPE LONG RAMBLY ESSAY LIKE THINGS WITH TOO MUCH CAPS LOCK AT THOSE WHO DO NOT.

 

Renarin.

 

Freaking.

 

Kholin.

 

*drops mic*

 

(Edit. Added quotes.)