The Lord Ruler vs. Susebron

[Faceless Mist-Wraith]

20 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

What does Susebron have that can kill the Lord Ruler?

I asked about whether he could use his Divine Breath to remove TLR's Allomancy and Feruchemy, but no-one responded to that train of thought. I tried looking through the Arcanum (it is really well organized by the way, shout out to all the people who put it together), but couldn't find anything that explicitly supported it.

That's the only real way I could see Susebron winning, unless we let him do something silly like turn TLR's bracers into mini Nightbloods using a distance command and 1000 Breaths.

Match-ups with the Lord Ruler never really seem to end well. It's really hard to come up with something that he can't counter easily with some combination of compounding.

[Yata]

On 26/12/2017 at 6:52 AM, Faceless Mist-Wraith said:

I asked about whether he could use his Divine Breath to remove TLR's Allomancy and Feruchemy, but no-one responded to that train of thought. I tried looking through the Arcanum (it is really well organized by the way, shout out to all the people who put it together), but couldn't find anything that explicitly supported it.

How this is supposed to work ? Nothing in the Awakening we know is capable of doing something like that. Much more, if Susebron use the Divine Breath....is dead.

[Kingsdaughter613]

On 12/26/2017 at 0:52 AM, Faceless Mist-Wraith said:

Match-ups with the Lord Ruler never really seem to end well. It's really hard to come up with something that he can't counter easily with some combination of compounding.

Hence why I want to see the Sovereign vs. TLR. Because A:they’re actually matched and B: it’s a grudge match. Besides, Kell would totally want a rematch.

Edited December 27, 2017 by Kingsdaughter613

[Faceless Mist-Wraith]

10 hours ago, Yata said:

How this is supposed to work ? Nothing in the Awakening we know is capable of doing something like that. Much more, if Susebron use the Divine Breath....is dead.

I don't know if it would work I was just theorizing. I thought that if Divine Breath can be used to heal physical injuries, as well as fix the cognitive area needed for speech, maybe it could be used to alter TLR's spiritual aspect and remove his abilities. Like I said, I didn't know if it was possible, I just thought there might be some other uses/capabilities for the Divine Breath since a WoB hinted it could be used in Awakening.

As for the second part, I thought that a Returned could use their Divine Breath as long as they had other Breaths to sustain them?

[Kingsdaughter613]

Nope. The Divine Breath is what keeps them alive.

[Faceless Mist-Wraith]

I didn't know that. Sorry about the misconception earlier.

What if they are given more than one Divine Breath? Can they give those away?

[Yata]

On 27/12/2017 at 8:35 PM, Faceless Mist-Wraith said:

I don't know if it would work I was just theorizing. I thought that if Divine Breath can be used to heal physical injuries, as well as fix the cognitive area needed for speech, maybe it could be used to alter TLR's spiritual aspect and remove his abilities. Like I said, I didn't know if it was possible, I just thought there might be some other uses/capabilities for the Divine Breath since a WoB hinted it could be used in Awakening.

The Divine Breath is usabile only to heal normaly and I believe It's happen as side effect of be' temp connected a lot with Endowment.

About using Awakening to alter someonelse. That It's impossible, the only way to affect a living being with a Command is the so called "Self-awakening" and you could only affect yourself, more specifically your Cognitive Self.

On 27/12/2017 at 8:35 PM, Faceless Mist-Wraith said:

As for the second part, I thought that a Returned could use their Divine Breath as long as they had other Breaths to sustain them?

No, the Divine Breath is what keep a Returned Alive, It's the bridge that Stick the Returned's CS to his body.

On 28/12/2017 at 1:56 AM, Faceless Mist-Wraith said:

What if they are given more than one Divine Breath? Can they give those away?

In theory Yes but It's unknown if you could recive a Divine Breath in that way. If It possible we don't know how and what use the Divine Breath could have.

This is for our current knowledge

EDIT: I wrote "Self-Splintering" instead of "Self-Awakening"...corrected

Edited December 31, 2017 by Yata

[Mutantspicy]

head to head TLR no question.  However, Susebron with the experience of someone like Vasher could totally turn all of the lord rulers tools against him.  Aka.  Imagine if Susebron had enough knowledge and experience to create half a dozen nightbloods from a distance, even turn the bands of mourning against him, removing compounding skills, by awakening his feruchemical stores and having them fly away.   But he doesn't have that knowledge or experience.  i think The God king may have more raw power but less skill, head to head skill wins everytime. 

Edited December 30, 2017 by Mutantspicy

[Yata]

On 30/12/2017 at 5:52 AM, Mutantspicy said:

Imagine if Susebron had enough knowledge and experience to create half a dozen nightbloods from a distance

Assuming it is possible how this would stop TLR other than giving him a possible tool or avoid them ? By the way, Nightblood isn't really replicable (via WoB) his creation took some weird factors to be possible. A rightful Awakened-Shardblade will be really different from NB

On 30/12/2017 at 5:52 AM, Mutantspicy said:

even turn the bands of mourning against him, removing compounding skills, by awakening his feruchemical stores and having them fly away

First of all, Invested object are harder to affect and mostly, Awakening doesn't allow rigid objects to move, so it will simply awake the metal but the metal is unable to move away. Lastly Rashek could keep compound by his inner metals or simply dispose of the awakening with Chromium (and this is true whatever an Awakened object make contact with him)

On 30/12/2017 at 5:52 AM, Mutantspicy said:

But he doesn't have that knowledge or experience.  i think The God king may have more raw power but less skill, head to head skill wins everytime. 

Susebron lacks of knowledge and experience but regardless....Vasher with Susebron's Breath will still be unable to fight on pair of someone like Rashek who is an overpowered character

Edited December 31, 2017 by Yata

[The One Who Connects]

2 hours ago, Yata said:

By the way, Nightblood isn't really replicable (via WoB) his creation took some weird factors to be possible.

For completeness(and discussion value), I assume you mean this WoB?

Quote

Megasif [PENDING REVIEW]

In London I wanted to ask about Nightblood. The way he is Invested, is that a one-off-case kind of thing, or is it possible to do another of that level?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

It was really bizarre, and I will explain it eventually and that will let you know why. It's theoretically possible to do almost anything so it's theoretically possible to do what he did but it'd be very hard.

[Yata]

@The One Who Connects yeah, that one. Thanks 

I remembered the wording a bit different and I believed there was a referece to spoiler stuff in it. But instead it is spoiler-free so I was wrong in not post it

Edited December 31, 2017 by Yata

[Mutantspicy]

There will never be another nightblood, but that doesn't mean other creations like nightblood cannot be created.  Sentient objects of all stripes are feasible, they don't all have to be metal even. Each one would have it's own personal words of creation, so of course they would all be unique in nature  Which is even more powerful ultimately,  what I meant to say is that having the ability to create intelligent objects and weapons is exactly the kinda of thing to take out TLR.  VIN says luck and trickery are the way to beating the TLR.  Very little is known about the 10th heightening skills, and I don't see why you couldn't awaken invested metal (arm bands), of course it will take a lot more breaths, But that is exactly what susebron has. 

[Yata]

@Mutantspicy your whole argument is "Awakening could do in theory other stuffs we don't know" and while this is true is almost meaningless ad argument as in theory all' this "other stuffs" could be' useless in the fight with TLR and honestly also Allomancy and Feruchemy could do funky stuffs we don't know yet.

For example there is at least a way to worldhop built into the Metallic Art so TLR could shift to Shadesmar reaches TGK and kill him in a moment.

Or again TLR could nullify the Awakened objects they make contact with him discharge them (Chromium) or stealing their Breath (playing with Identity).

The God King is powerful but It's a glass cannon...a single good hit and It's over.

He could give to the Fullborn a Little of slowing down...but at the end, he can't really stop him.

[NightFrost]

You know if TGK can awaken objects without touching them then he could theoretically awaken everything in the palace with the command of kill TLR. Plus since everyone hates TLR hire some iron and steel mistings to collapse the palace on top of TLR while he is distracted by the awakened objects.

Fight smarter not Harder

[King Cole]

31 minutes ago, NightFrost said:

You know if TGK can awaken objects without touching them then he could theoretically awaken everything in the palace with the command of kill TLR. Plus since everyone hates TLR hire some iron and steel mistings to collapse the palace on top of TLR while he is distracted by the awakened objects.

Fight smarter not Harder

The thing is, that couldn't hurt him. Plus, tapping a whole bunch of Nicrosil then burning steel/iron would, allow him to tear someone apart by pushing on trace metals

@Yata, how would he go into shadesmar?

Edited January 1, 2018 by King Cole

[Yata]

43 minutes ago, King Cole said:

@Yata, how would he go into shadesmar?

Honestly as I said before I don't know. But Brandon stated there is a way to worldhop built into the Metallic Arts and as TLR has all the powers...he would be able to use this way too.

1 hour ago, NightFrost said:

You know if TGK can awaken objects without touching them then he could theoretically awaken everything in the palace with the command of kill TLR. Plus since everyone hates TLR hire some iron and steel mistings to collapse the palace on top of TLR while he is distracted by the awakened objects.

My point is that those object would still need to touch TLR to harm him and he could dispose of the Breath in at least a couple of ways and by the way TGK need to be really cautios in awakening a lot of stuff. His Breath's reserve is huge, but Awakening is really Breath taxing.Awake 100 object will already comes close to erode most of TGK's reserves.

[Mutantspicy]

I'm not suggesting it would be easy.  I saying he has a small chance because of the fact he can create intelligent weapons and doesn't require metal, and its kinda fun think of potential strategies.   If I'm susebron, I'm thinking I would create a spider web net work of intelligent silk or rope with the sole mission of removing ferumatic stores. Overwhelm first him with volume of strikes from aluminum shielded lifeless soldiers. Then sneak attack with the feruchemy thief (silky) at an opportune time.  We already know once his bracers are off he's vulnerable, the trick is coming up with enough distractions to get past his atium stores.  This is just one quick strategy, With something like susebron as loaded as he is, strategy is going the key, Not brute force.  As you say, he is glass cannon.  Sure he can be destroyed easily, but best weapon against allomancers is glass daggers.  Sooo...

Edited January 2, 2018 by Mutantspicy

[King Cole]

1 minute ago, Mutantspicy said:

I'm not suggesting it would be easy.  I saying he has a small chance because of the fact he can create intelligent weapons and doesn't require metal, and its kinda fun think of potential strategies.   If I'm susebron, I'm thinking I would create a spider web net work of intelligent silk or rope with the sole mission of removing ferumatic stores. Overwhelm first him with volume of strikes from aluminum shielded lifeless soldiers. Then sneak attack with the feruchemy thief (silky) at an opportune time.  We already know once his bracers are off he's vulnerable, the trick is coming up with enough distractions to get past his atium stores.  This is just one quick strategy, With something like susebron as loaded as he is, strategy is going the key, Not brute force.  As you say, he is glass cannon.  Sure he can be destroyed easily, but best weapon against allomancers is glass daggers.  Sooo...

You forget, TLR is still a god without his metalminds. When he held the Well of Ascension, he gave himself supercharged allomancy. So he can still easily kill Susebron.

[Mutantspicy]

No not really, I totally get he is still super mistborn. But you forget that he is severely weakened unable to react when his health stores are remove. He will be stunned.  Its probably a very narrow window, but a window.  Vin proved that is all it takes, catch him off guard, he is really a frail old man behind all that magic. 

Edited January 2, 2018 by Mutantspicy

[King Cole]

1 hour ago, Mutantspicy said:

No not really, I totally get he is still super mistborn. But you forget that he is severely weakened unable to react when his health stores are remove. He will be stunned.  Its probably a very narrow window, but a window.  Vin proved that is all it takes, catch him off guard, he is really a frail old man behind all that magic. 

If you want someone to see that you responded, you should either quote their previous post or tag them

[The One Who Connects]

2 hours ago, Mutantspicy said:

But you forget that he is severely weakened unable to react when his health stores are remove. He will be stunned.

Stunned/Frail TLR was because his Atiumminds were removed. Unlike Miles, I doubt TLR was burning gold all the time, so I doubt it would stun him.

It might unnerve him because his Metalminds were stolen, but it wouldn't stun him the way it happened in the book. Without his gold he may be more cautious, but as mentioned by Cole, his Allomancy still exists.

Additionally, given that his Atiumminds were piercing his skin, I'm not sure they could be pulled off as easily as you think. His rings and bangles, sure, but not his Atium.

Edited January 2, 2018 by The One Who Connects
Edit: 2,700 Posts :)

[Yata]

10 hours ago, The One Who Connects said:

Additionally, given that his Atiumminds were piercing his skin, I'm not sure they could be pulled off as easily as you think. His rings and bangles, sure, but not his Atium.

By the way, do we know if Awakened rigid material could move at all ? As far as I know it's not possible, but I could be wrong....Because if they can't. Awaken TLR's metalminds will do nothing (other than deplete the Breath reserve to awaken high Invested objects)

Edited January 2, 2018 by Yata

[Faceless Mist-Wraith]

1 hour ago, Yata said:

By the way, do we know if Awakened rigid material could move at all ? As far as I know it's not possible, but I could be wrong....Because if they can't. Awaken TLR's metalminds will do nothing (other than deplete the Breath reserve to awaken high Invested objects)

If you did Awaken TLR's metal minds (somehow) wouldn't they immediately start draining him of investiture? Do all type 4 entities drain investiture, or is this specific to Nightblood?

Also, should this be in Cosmere Theories, or some other forum? (Just asking since this isn't solely about Mistborn).

[+ElephantEarwax]

11 minutes ago, Faceless Mist-Wraith said:

If you did Awaken TLR's metal minds (somehow) wouldn't they immediately start draining him of investiture? Do all type 4 entities drain investiture, or is this specific to Nightblood?

There are some OB spoilers that could possibly answer that, but dang spoiler policy saving us.

[Mutantspicy]

13 hours ago, The One Who Connects said:

Stunned/Frail TLR was because his Atiumminds were removed. Unlike Miles, I doubt TLR was burning gold all the time, so I doubt it would stun him.

It might unnerve him because his Metalminds were stolen, but it wouldn't stun him the way it happened in the book. Without his gold he may be more cautious, but as mentioned by Cole, his Allomancy still exists.

Additionally, given that his Atiumminds were piercing his skin, I'm not sure they could be pulled off as easily as you think. His rings and bangles, sure, but not his Atium.

I was in fact primarily referring to the bands that were piercing his skin.  Its been quite a while since I read Final Empire, so I didn't remember them being Atium.  Obviously removing would require more investment, but I don't think it would be as impossible as you are suggesting. It's not like they were buried in there too deeply just enough to prevent Steel/iron alomancy.  

And while his alomancy would still be in affect, how much of that matters.  Consider that Susebron would not foolish enough to show up to such a battle with any form of metal on his person other than aluminum. Coin shots would really be TLR's only true offensive weapon which Susebron could have an intelligent aluminum shield carried by one or more of his lifeless for instance.  Soothing and Rioting could be quelled with an aluminum helm, etc. 

As I stated early on Head to Head street fighter style, TLR wins no contest.  But with some game planning, and some knowledge, Susebron has plenty of power to make a fight out of it.