[OB] The Bondsmith Spren

[Heretic]

So, I’ve been some thinking recently and have been trying to put together a theory on the three Bondsmith spren. I discovered, however, that trying to keep track of all the different threads just made my head hurt, so instead I’m going to try throwing it all at the wall and seeing what sticks.

This all started with the fragment from the Eila Stele in chapter 116

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We took them in, as commanded by the gods. What else could we do? They were a people forlorn, without a home. Our pity destroyed us. For their betrayal extended even to our gods: to spren, stone, and wind.

Now this struck me as strange for a number of reasons. First, there were only two Shards on Roshar before Odium arrived, so why are there three things listed? Second is that only one of those things actually matches with one of the Shards, Honor and the wind because high storms and such. Stone and spren though don’t really match with Cultivation because when we see her she’s very clearly associated with plants, not stone. My first thought is that the three gods mentioned in the Eila Stele must be the three Bondsmith spren. They’re the only group of three on Roshar that would be powerful enough to be considered gods. Again, the Stormfather is obviously the wind but where does that leave the Sibling and the Nightwatcher? I went back and looked at Dalinar’s visit to the Nightwatcher and when Cultivation speaks there’s this little tidbit of description:

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“If the Nightwatcher’s voice was like whispering wind, this one was like rumbling stones”

pg. 1078

It’s not much, but it’s the only link I’ve found between Cultivation and stone. Stone doesn’t mesh with the Nightwatcher at all though. She’s described as indistinct and vaporous which is pretty much the opposite of stone. Since the Sibling is associated with Urithiru, which is made of stone, I’d guess that is the god of stone the Eila Stele refers to to, which makes the Nightwatcher, by process of elimination, the god of spren. Or technically the spren of spren as weird as that sounds. This brings me to my next thought which is that the Sibling is somehow connected to the planet itself. If the Sibling is the god of stone referenced in the Eila Stele, I don’t think it’s too much of a stretch to say that’s its somehow the spren of the planet or the land in the same way that the Stormfather is the spren of the high storm. 

This next part is a bit of a leap but I think it’s possible to follow. I think the Sibling is what let the ancient Radiants force all the parshendi into dull form. In the gemstones, the Radiants say that they are both abandoning Urithiru and attempting to seal up Ba-Ado-Mishram. Somehow the Sibling facilitated this and the strain may have killed its bondsmith and forced it into its slumber, similar to what happened to Syl when her original Radiant was killed. The Radiants knew something like this was possible which is why they decided to abandon Urithiru-without the Sibling to power it, it’s useless. I really don’t have any evidence for this, but I just get the feeling there might be something to it.

Ok, I think that’s enough unsubstantiated theorizing and rambling for one night. What do you guys think? 

[Vortaan]

1 hour ago, Heretic said:

Now this struck me as strange for a number of reasons. First, there were only two Shards on Roshar before Odium arrived, so why are there three things listed? Second is that only one of those things actually matches with one of the Shards, Honor and the wind because high storms and such. Stone and spren though don’t really match with Cultivation because when we see her she’s very clearly associated with plants, not stone.

Cultivation is the source of the crem in highstorms, which causes the plants to grow... and hardens into stone.

[Leuthie]

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Second is that only one of those things actually matches with one of the Shards, Honor and the wind because high storms and such. Stone and spren though don’t really match with Cultivation because when we see her she’s very clearly associated with plants, not stone. 

How does Honor relate to wind?  Why is associating Cultivation with Stone any weirder than associating Honor with Storm?  The associations may have very well originally been arbitrary.  "We both want Stone.  Let's flip for it!"

[.S.A.M.K.M]

The nightwatch is believed to be of cultivation, while the storm father is of honor. So it is assumed the sibling is of both shards. I wonder how it is affected by cultivation hiding and honor dying, that combined with the loss of its bond smith could have affected it deeply.

[Stark]

I've been thinking in a different direction actually.  We know Tanavast and Cultivations bearer were romantically involved, right?  So what if they, after settling in Roshar, had a child together?  A child with the genetic make-up of both Honor and Cultivation?

 

I have zero proof for this.  But, we know that non-odium spren are a blend of Honor and Cultivation, without showing red-corruption signs.  This would indicate a collaborative effort in splintering, or a blending.  We know, from Mistborn, having children did not diminish a Mistborn's power, but the child would have power based on the genetic lottery from its parents.  We know something got Odium to target this world next.  We know the Stormfather is the child of Tanavast, and the Nightwatcher  the daughter of Cultivation (really need to learn her name) - Could the sibling not be the child of both?

 

Then, Tanavast sacrificing himself to block Odium makes sense.  Cultivation not striking back and seeming to hide suddenly makes more sense, especially after we have the WOB:

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Gavin-son-son-Odegard [PENDING REVIEW]

How does Cultivation figure in this conflict between Odium? *inaudible*

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

So, what people assume is that Cultivation is hiding. I would disagree with that. People in-world would assume that.

So what if she is not hiding, but raising and protecting the child, who may well have a Shard, or near shard capacity as a blend of their parent's intents?  And the sibling be the splinter of the two, younger than either the Stormfather or the Nightwatcher, protected by both?

[aemetha]

Honor blocked Odium because he is bound to sworn oaths. If he swore to stop Odium, he would have no choice but to stop Odium or die trying. Cultivation isn't hiding, but her intent is not about confrontation at all, it's about directed growth - a long game of manoeuvring and gathering strength to fend off an assault. The behaviour of the shards is explainable without the need for a child to protect. Suspending my scepticism for a moment though:

Could the vessels have a child? Sure, I guess they could, BS said that they can. If they did it wouldn't be the sibling though, because it would be an organic creature with DNA and genetics, not one comprised of investiture. The could also create a splinter of their combined investitures, since that's what the Radiant spren are, but then it wouldn't have genetics because it would be comprised of investiture which is not an organic creature with DNA. They could create a sliver from an organic child I guess.

A sliver though could only be the sibling if it was already dead, and became a cognitive shadow, and even that is extremely iffy since the cognitive shadows we've seen aren't capable of forming symbiotic bonds in the way spren do. The fused replace the original inhabitant of the body.

[Stark]

4 hours ago, aemetha said:

If they did it wouldn't be the sibling though

I'm not sure I agree with this.  Would you consider an adopted child to be a sibling to a genetic one, or a clone?  I would.  And the Stormfather, a sliver sized spren blended with Honor's cognitive shadow could be described as a clone, in the loosest possible way.  The Nightwatcher is a spren - a splinter.  And a child of Honor and Cultivation would be genetic, and a sliver at least, if not more.  If 'raised' together, the three of them would likely view themselves as siblings.

 

Granted, that is a very human-centric way of looking at things, and we cannot confirm that Honor or Cultivation are human, though it is likely that Honor was.  And a lot of rules get fuzzy with shards, given how much Investiture they contain.

 

I do acknowledge your point that a genetic individual, sliver or not, would not behave like a spren for the sake of nahel bonding a Bondsmith.  Definite flaw.  But given how cagey both BS and the Stormfather have been about the third Bondsmith spren, and how protective the Stormfather is when the sibling is broached, I don't think I am too far off.  But ultimately, we do see genetic siblings, half siblings, adoptive siblings and all other manner of sibling type bonds forming between people all the time and only in one of those examples is the genetic parentage of the siblings identical.

[aemetha]

2 hours ago, Stark said:

I'm not sure I agree with this.  Would you consider an adopted child to be a sibling to a genetic one, or a clone?  I would.  And the Stormfather, a sliver sized spren blended with Honor's cognitive shadow could be described as a clone, in the loosest possible way.  The Nightwatcher is a spren - a splinter.  And a child of Honor and Cultivation would be genetic, and a sliver at least, if not more.  If 'raised' together, the three of them would likely view themselves as siblings.

Genetically I would not consider them to be siblings. They would be siblings for the purpose of measuring nurture, but not for the purpose of measuring nature. We should be clear too, a genetic child would be the child of Tanavast and Cultivation's vessel, not a child of Honor and Cultivation. It's a vessel versus shard thing. Such a child could be heavily invested by Honor and Cultivation to become a sliver. I don't think we know or can relate to the thought processes of sapient splinters enough to say whether they would ever consider a human child to be a sibling. They are embodiment of ideas and concepts, and their thinking is said to be far less flexible than that of humans.

I don't think the stormfather is a very good example. Dalinar comments after all that they are something new. With the stormfather he was a radiant spren before he merged with the cognitive shadow, so the ability to form nahel bonds was already a part of him. This is what I think a cognitive shadow of a sliver child of the vessels would not have - it's mind is entirely a creation of a mortal organic being that just happened to persist as investiture after the physical body died. To properly form nahel bonds it seems likely there would have needed to be the creation of a sliver genetic child of the vessels, and a splinter child of both Honor and Cultivation as two separate entities which merged when the vessel child died and became a cognitive shadow - but if that had happened, the stormfather wouldn't be new.

I don't dismiss the idea that the sibling is a combination of Honor and Cultivation's investiture, that is consistent with radiant spren in general. I just think a splinter is a far more likely scenario than the convoluted creation of a cognitive shadow with a physical origin. The stormfather is just as protective of Syl as he is of the sibling. He sees himself as the father of all spren and his duty to protect them. I think that is more the spren in him than the cognitive shadow. He was creating spren himself before he was merged with the cognitive shadow and regularly demonstrates protectiveness of all spren.

[Wit Beyond Measure]

When the honorspren captain asks Kaladin which of the three Bondsmiths Dalinar is, he appears calm and uneager, as if he fully expecting Dalinar to be any one of the three.  When Kaladin says Dalinar bonded the Stormfather, however, the captain is "aghast."  Aghast!  (Page 1016 or 1017 of OB.)

So I'm thinking that the Stormfather doesn't fit the expected mold for the three Bondsmiths.  I wouldn't be surprised if there was only one Bondsmith or if the Stormfather is significantly more powerful than any of the three spren usually bonded.  Perhaps this signals that this desolation will be significantly worse than any that have come before, the True Desolation, given how powerful the Bondsmiths will be, with the Nightwatcher and the Sibling possibly being the other two if there are to be three.

When Dalinar originally bonded the Stormfather (around Page 1070 of WoR), the Stormfather said that he wouldn't be bonded in such a way to allow himself to be killed, but Dalinar eventually convinced him otherwise.  The Stormfather does seem to never have been bonded before, except for his bond with Honor.

BTW, I simply love how the Stormfather has Dalinar promise not to use him or any dead spren as a sword, putting Dalinar on the pacifist path for the next book.  I wholeheartedly believe that 1.) this path of peace, 2.) reliving his violent Blackthorn past, and 3.) facing down a god and two armies all by himself with nothing but a book (his new pacifist nature) are what allowed him to resist The Thrill and deny Odium of his champion.  Victory via peace.

Do you have a weapon?
Nope.  Can't read.

Edited December 20, 2017 by Wit Beyond Measure

[Dlyol]

49 minutes ago, Wit Beyond Measure said:

When Dalinar originally bonded the Stormfather (around Page 1070 of WoR), the Stormfather said that he wouldn't be bonded in such a way to allow himself to be killed, but Dalinar eventually convinced him otherwise.  The Stormfather does seem to never have been bonded before, except for his bond with Honor.

We have a WOB that says otherwise 

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Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

The Stormfather, has he bonded with anyone else besides Dalinar?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

In the past? Yes.

 

 

49 minutes ago, Wit Beyond Measure said:

So I'm thinking that the Stormfather doesn't fit the expected mold for the three Bondsmiths.  I wouldn't be surprised if there was only one Bondsmith or if the Stormfather is significantly more powerful than any of the three spren usually bonded.  Perhaps this signals that this desolation will be significantly worse than any that have come before, the True Desolation, given how powerful the Bondsmiths will be, with the Nightwatcher and the Sibling possibly being the other two if there are to be three.

We also have WOB that the Stormfather and the Nightwatcher are on the same power level (as presumably is the Sibling)

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Questioner

Speaking of the Stormfather, would the Nightwatcher and the giant water spren be on the same level of spren as the Stormfather?

Brandon Sanderson

...The Nightwatcher, yes. Um... There are, I would say, a level below the Stormfather and the Nightwatcher who are also much-- a much bigger deal than something like one of the sapient spren, and that's what Cusicesh is.

 

I think that the Honourspren was aghast relates more to the fact that post-Radiance lots of Spren are wary about Nahel bonds and given Honourspren share a close relationship with the Stormfather, many (although not all) might not have wanted him to bond again

Edited December 20, 2017 by Dlyol