[OB] What truths must Hoid speak?

[MonsterMetroid]

We know that Hoid/Wit bonded a cryptic at the end of Oathbringer So what truths do you guys think he must speak?

Do you think he is self aware enough that he will be a full Lightweaver next we see him or does he still have a journey of self discovery to go on?

[RShara]

Oh I'll bet he has some suuuuper juicy ones.  And he surely has enough of them to get to 5.  Just starting with his real name, and going from there.

[NotBurtReynolds]

5 minutes ago, MonsterMetroid said:

We know that Hoid/Wit bonded a cryptic at the end of Oathbringer So what truths do you guys think he must speak?

Do you think he is self aware enough that he will be a full Lightweaver next we see him or does he still have a journey of self discovery to go on?

Do we know he bonded the Cryptic? Because I was thinking that he had(so far) just convinced the lil' Cryptic to come out of hiding and come with him to escape. But man, I'd love to hear the Truths that Hoid would have to speak to make it happen

[+Hoiditthroughthegrapevine]

1. I am a god at this point, and I do have a moral resposibility to make sure Roshar doesn't burn.
2. I am a cosmeric projection of the Author himself, I said before that I started out as words on a Page, and this is true. Here are the supporting details for this truth. I tell the best stories, period. I am represented as a single man, but how could a single man be in all of the places that I am supposed to be in, while still maintaing my prolific output of pure genius (like a certain mortal with the initials BWS does) unless I have been personally invested by the shard of Brandonalsium?
3. If I am being honest with myself, all I really want to do is go back to the good old days on Yolen when my dragon friend Frost and I had bbqs and played bachi ball.

Edited December 15, 2017 by hoiditthroughthegrapevine

[MonsterMetroid]

1 minute ago, RShara said:

Oh I'll bet he has some suuuuper juicy ones.

I know right! I really hope we see one on screen but I doubt it. I bet one of them is like "I only help others if it helps me cause I'm selfish", or "The cosmere as I know it is not truly real but lives on in the heart of others" if we want to get really 4th wall here.

5 minutes ago, NotBurtReynolds said:

Do we know he bonded the Cryptic?

I guess we dont know but the fact that he spoke the first oath to it has me pretty much sold that he did.

 

[NotBurtReynolds]

7 minutes ago, MonsterMetroid said:

I guess we dont know but the fact that he spoke the first oath to it has me pretty much sold that he did.

 

Quote

It's either go with me now, Wit said to the wall, or wait it out and get captured. I honestly don't even know if you've the mind to listen. But if you do, know this: I will give you truths. And I know some juicy ones.

Quote

Life before death, little one, Wit whispered.

 

I took the first quote as a bribe to get the cryptic to come out. I took the second one more as some flippant Hoid-ness , rather than an actual oath. But, its probably just picking nits.

[stormlore]

Do we know it was a cryptic? Was it the spren that the Fuzed were looking for? Maybe it's the sibling?

[RShara]

3 minutes ago, stormlore said:

Do we know it was a cryptic? Was it the spren that the Fuzed were looking for? Maybe it's the sibling?

Yes, it was definitely a Cryptic that ran over to Hoid.  It's unknown if the Fused were looking for the Cryptic or for something else.  It seems unlikely it'd be the Sibling, though.  Ba-Ado-Mishram is speculated.

[digitalbusker]

Hoid could probably get pretty far just revealing different names.

[Llarimar]

This is something that has confused me about the Lightweavers.  Can they just blurt out five truths and then consider themselves full-blown Knights Radiant?  I am sure that Hoid has at least 5 truths stored up, that he can say to the Cryptic in quick succession and cross them off the list.  

I think that the truths need to be said when the Lightweaver is "ready."  With Shallan this makes sense, as she has a lot of growth that is necessary before she is ready to accept another truth and advance in her Surgebinding abilities.  However, Hoid is ancient and vastly intelligent, and extremely practiced with many forms of Investiture.  I have a hard time imagining that he has a lot of necessary character growth left at this point - he is extremely self-aware and has already figured out who he is and what his goals are.  

All of the spren-Knight relationships we've seen so far have grown on a mutual level.  Kaladin and Syl slowly grew to understand their powers together, at the same rate, and the same is true for Shallan and Pattern, and even to a lesser extent Dalinar and the Stormfather.  However, Hoid is extremely intelligent and aware of the powers that are entailed with being a Lightweaver (in fact, he already can Lightweave).  I imagine him bossing around his little spren, hurriedly rushing through the Oaths and dragging it behind him at the end of a string, because unlike the other Knights Radiant we've seen he is far more cognizant and informed concerning Surgebinding than the spren he is bonding.  For these reasons I see the Hoid-Cryptic relationship being very different from the other Knights Radiant bonds we've seen so far, and possibly not even working.  Hoid can't through the same gradual, step-by-step path as Shallan, since he already is at the top of the staircase and his just waiting for his spren to catch up.

Edited December 15, 2017 by Llarimar

[aemetha]

9 minutes ago, Llarimar said:

Can they just blurt out five truths and then consider themselves full-blown Knights Radiant?

I don't think so. I think it needs to be the truth of a lie told to oneself. It seems to be the theme of cryptics that they seek truth by understanding the difference between truth and a lie. The lie gives the truth meaning.

[Rainier]

Here's what my best guess at his 5th ideal will be:

Quote

It's all my fault. This mess is of my doing, and it is my responsibility to fix.

Who knows how or why, but we know he was around for the Shattering, and this is basically a guess that he's lived to regret his complicity. 

 

16 minutes ago, Llarimar said:

Can they just blurt out five truths and then consider themselves full-blown Knights Radiant? 

No, the spren has to accept them, too. 

 

17 minutes ago, Llarimar said:

For these reasons I see the Hoid-Cryptic relationship being very different from the other Knights Radiant bonds we've seen so far, and possibly not even working.  Hoid can't through the same gradual, step-by-step path as Shallan, since he already is at the top of the staircase and his just waiting for his spren to catch up.

I guarantee it won't be the same as other Knights Radiant, but exactly how it will be different remains to be seen. And as strong, powerful, and intelligent as he is, I bet Hoid is still lying to himself about some things. Maybe the spren can sense the lies he tells about himself, and is waiting for him to reveal those lies? Then whatever attracted the spren in the first place would need to be resolved, but things that are already resolved wouldn't have attracted the spren.

Or maybe he'll get stuck at level 3 or 4 having used more 'typical' secrets/truths that only he would know, but aren't about himself. And the spren won't accept impersonal truths for further advancement.

[aemetha]

7 minutes ago, Rainier said:

And as strong, powerful, and intelligent as he is, I bet Hoid is still lying to himself about some things

It is not my responsibility to end Rayse. It is my hubris.

[stormlore]

51 minutes ago, RShara said:

Yes, it was definitely a Cryptic that ran over to Hoid.  It's unknown if the Fused were looking for the Cryptic or for something else.  It seems unlikely it'd be the Sibling, though.  Ba-Ado-Mishram is speculated.

Didn't he say something about them finding the spen when he was coaxing it out?

[stormlore]

I suppose Hoid would want lightweaving for story telling purposes.

 

Edit: AND disguises

Edited December 15, 2017 by stormlore

[aemetha]

1 minute ago, stormlore said:

Didn't he say something about them finding the spen when he was coaxing it out?

Correlation is not a synonym causation. If they had found the cryptic they would certainly have killed it as a radiant spren, but that doesn't mean it was what they were actually looking for.

[RShara]

1 minute ago, aemetha said:

Correlation is not a synonym causation. If they had found the cryptic they would certainly have killed it as a radiant spren, but that doesn't mean it was what they were actually looking for.

Yep.  I doubt they'd go to all that trouble just to find one radiant spren, but if they HAD found it, it would have been killed or corrupted.

[StormingTexan]

"I helped kill THE God" 

[Krios]

If cryptics real feed upon lies, the one travelling / bonded with Hoid will need to work out a lot or go supersize.

I think that Hoids truths will be used to reveal more about his backstory, because it will take a while until we get our hands on the books where it is told. Just so Brandon can throw us some bones.

[MonsterMetroid]

1 hour ago, Llarimar said:

Can they just blurt out five truths and then consider themselves full-blown Knights Radiant? 

Yeah I agree with what aemetha said above. We know that the purpose of the truths is to help you gain a greater awareness of oneself

Quote

Malchin was stymied, for though he was inferior to none in the arts of war, he was not suitable for the Lightweavers; he wished for his oaths to be elementary and straightforward, and yet their spren were liberal, as to our comprehension, in definitions pertaining to this matter; the process included speaking truths as an approach to a threshold of self-awareness that Malchin could never attain. 

It kind of reminds me that I read somewhere that there is apparently a WoB that says not all Knights Radients have 5 oaths? Has anyone else seen this? Cause if that is true maybe the number of truths required are different or more of a linear progression rather than stepped progression

[Cenanin]

2 hours ago, NotBurtReynolds said:

I took the first quote as a bribe to get the cryptic to come out. I took the second one more as some flippant Hoid-ness , rather than an actual oath. But, its probably just picking nits.

Lopen didn't mean it at the time of his oath either. 

[Furry-And-Lovable-Grover]

2 hours ago, Llarimar said:

This is something that has confused me about the Lightweavers.  Can they just blurt out five truths and then consider themselves full-blown Knights Radiant?  I am sure that Hoid has at least 5 truths stored up, that he can say to the Cryptic in quick succession and cross them off the list.  

I think that the truths need to be said when the Lightweaver is "ready."  With Shallan this makes sense, as she has a lot of growth that is necessary before she is ready to accept another truth and advance in her Surgebinding abilities.  However, Hoid is ancient and vastly intelligent, and extremely practiced with many forms of Investiture.  I have a hard time imagining that he has a lot of necessary character growth left at this point - he is extremely self-aware and has already figured out who he is and what his goals are.  

All of the spren-Knight relationships we've seen so far have grown on a mutual level.  Kaladin and Syl slowly grew to understand their powers together, at the same rate, and the same is true for Shallan and Pattern, and even to a lesser extent Dalinar and the Stormfather.  However, Hoid is extremely intelligent and aware of the powers that are entailed with being a Lightweaver (in fact, he already can Lightweave).  I imagine him bossing around his little spren, hurriedly rushing through the Oaths and dragging it behind him at the end of a string, because unlike the other Knights Radiant we've seen he is far more cognizant and informed concerning Surgebinding than the spren he is bonding.  For these reasons I see the Hoid-Cryptic relationship being very different from the other Knights Radiant bonds we've seen so far, and possibly not even working.  Hoid can't through the same gradual, step-by-step path as Shallan, since he already is at the top of the staircase and his just waiting for his spren to catch up.

There's definitely an author-y reason that we get to see the KR growing to accept their oaths, in that it shows the development of the characters. That being said Szeth basically walked all the way up to the 4th Oath, with little to no effort, within a month or two of being accepted into the order of Skybreakers. This was largely due to the fact that Szeth was already very self aware. Granted, not all oaths/orders are about achieving self-awareness like Lightweavers, but each character defining oath requires some self awareness like that regardless of order. For example, Kaladin knows what the 4th Oath is, but can't bring himself to swear it yet. Direct evidence of self awareness.

Continuing with Szeth as my example of a very self aware Radiant, there are loopholes in every oath. Hoid would be uniquely qualified to leave himself a lot of latitude for action, but I don't forsee him actually trying to abuse a set of oaths to a being that would be more than willing to work towards his goals anyway.

[Rainier]

26 minutes ago, Jhardin said:

This was largely due to the fact that Szeth was already very self aware.

I'll take exception to this. It isn't because Szeth is self-aware, it's because he's been living like a Skybreaker already for years. Nale straight out tells him it's the fact that he held to his personal code so stringently that brought the Herald's attention.Szeth was perfectly willing to dedicate himself wholly and utterly to a cause, a code, or a person, as he had already demonstrated. That's why he was able to shoot up the ranks, not self-awareness.

I'll also note that the other reason Szeth is able to progress so quickly is that he was told the oaths in advance. He knows exactly what to expect, and combined with the years of dedication to following his code, has overwhelmingly proven himself as worthy of the Skybreakers and their spren.

32 minutes ago, Jhardin said:

For example, Kaladin knows what the 4th Oath is, but can't bring himself to swear it yet. Direct evidence of self awareness.

Self-awareness is for the Lightweavers, pretty much exclusively, from what I can tell, and it's backed up by the quotes about Malchin. It matters for Shallan, and it matters for Hoid, but it only matters for Kaladin inasmuch as it helps him find the words. The same goes for Dalinar. Neither would be able to find the words in the first place if they didn't have some self-awareness to determine what exactly they are doing, how exactly they are choosing to live, that had attracted the spren and qualified them for Radiance. I don't think it's going to be necessary for future Windrunners to be as self-aware, because Kaladin has blazed that path already.

Each Lightweaver, however, needs to demonstrate that individually, because their spren are, as it says, liberal with their interpretation. 

 

[RShara]

In WoR when Shallan says she's terrified, doesn't that get accepted as a Truth?  So it doesn't *have* to be a deep seated hidden truth.

[MonsterMetroid]

While we are talking about Shallan I see people saying that shallan has spoken four truths so far. Do we know this for fact somewhere? or are we assuming based off of the shardblade?