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[OB] Those who were made, then Unmade.


Oathforger

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I'm dedicating this, mainly, to discussions about the Unmade, particularly Sja-Anat, Taker of Secrets, and where they fit in the plot of SA. This was mainly inspired by section 4 of Oathbringer where Shallan communicates with Sja-Anat before using the Oathgate. Any theories, speculation, or hard evidence is accepted.

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I posted on another thread (can't find it) but if we were to go along the lines of Shardplate being made by lesser Spren, Sja-anat could corrupt said Spren in Ann area, robbing a radiant of their ability to protect themself (by using Shardplate). 

I think this is one aspect of her/its ability, I believe there's more, we shall see...

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It is my belief that the unmade are corrupted spren, or possibly an amalgam of corrupted spren. This is how I think it works:

Spren are made when the intent of a shard interacts with a compatible idea with sufficient cognitive presence, and an identity is established for the entity. This is them being made.

Odium is the void. He takes from the spren their ability to feel the idea involved in their making. Interpret that how you like, he takes the idea from them, or he adds the void to them, same result. This drives the spren insane and it seeks compulsively to regain what it lost. This is a recurring theme in the unmade, Negaoul massively spreads battle lust, Moelach the same with death whispers, Ashertman the same with hedonism. This is how they are unmade.

On the subject of Sja-Anat, I believe it is a corrupted cryptic or similar kind of spren. It is obsessed with intrigue. By its very nature it is untrustworthy as a result.

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Just now, RShara said:

The Unmade are confirmed to be Splinters of Odium

Right, and the radiant spren are confirmed to be splinters of both Honor and Cultivation. Being a splinter of Odium is not necessarily mutually exclusive with being a splinter of Honor and/or Cultivation. It is in fact a necessity for my theory to work.

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If the Unmade were originally splinters of Honor or Cultivation, but were then corrupted by Odium, then they would be red in coloration, not black, because of this WoB:

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/173-oathbringer-san-francisco-signing/#e8340

Spoiler

FirstSelector [PENDING REVIEW]

Does red in cosmere signify one Shard co-opting or corrupting another Shard's magic?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Yes.

 

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Just now, Cenanin said:

Isn't there a contradictory WoB that says Odium won't pick up shards or splinter himself for fear of changing his intent? Which is to be the singular shard?

He won't pick up new shards, but splintering himself wouldn't change his Intent.  Otherwise Endowment would be changing constantly.  As I mentioned in another thread about this:  Say you have a cake.  If you add to the cake, it's no longer the same flavor.  But if you take away a slice, it's still the same cake, just smaller.

Edited by RShara
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I think the Sibling (the third bondsmith spren after the stormfather and the nightwatcher) is the tenth Unmade and also Odium's/Rayse's cognitive shadow.

Evidence for this includes:

  • Sja-Anat wanting to switch teams, thereby providing a precedent (well, other way around chronologically but still) for another unmade switching sides.
  • It's super weird that there are only nine unmade, especially seeing as there are 10 voidbinding surges and types according to the voidbinder chart.
  • Occam's razor says that the bondsmiths actually only bond to one, super rare type of spren rather than three completely different types/races of spren, ergo: cognitive shadow spren; the shadows of each shard in the oathpact.

Also how did you get that word in yellow beside your post title?

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Brandon also said that there aren't ten Unmade.  The Unmade lack the correlation to the Bondsmiths (although there's not a 1-1 correspondence anyway). And he agrees or at least heavily implies that there are only 9.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/173-oathbringer-san-francisco-signing/#e8598

Quote

XS-Terrain [PENDING REVIEW]

Also, does each of the Unmade have a corresponding order of the Knights Radiant?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Eh... Kind of.

XS-Terrain [PENDING REVIEW]

Ok. So there are nine Unmade right, so which one is left out?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Bondsmith. But it's not as one to one, there's some fuzziness in there.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/218-words-of-radiance-chicago-signing/#e6612

Quote

Argent (paraphrased)

Is the number of Unmade fixed?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes.

Argent (paraphrased)

Is it ten, is it ten, is it ten, is it ten, is it ten?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Is it ten? No, it's not ten.

 

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8 minutes ago, RShara said:

Brandon also said that there aren't ten Unmade.  The Unmade lack the correlation to the Bondsmiths (although there's not a 1-1 correspondence anyway). And he agrees or at least heavily implies that there are only 9.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/173-oathbringer-san-francisco-signing/#e8598

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/218-words-of-radiance-chicago-signing/#e6612

 

Eh, those are some vague answers tbh. The quotes themselves don't actually disprove what I'm talking about (there aren't 10 and the number is fixed rather than odium made 10 and the number has always been fixed) and they're also paraphrased so we can't really judge what he means.

Also can you tell me how to get words in orange/yellow beside the post title like op has?

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We have all guessed that the nine would be trapped, what if not only in a gemstone but a fabrial of some type? The one that cause the Parshendi to become slave is said to be a source of void light , so could be useful in trapping and keeping the enemy dealt with. Due to their differing nature, I don't see them being nine viable fabrials, but one fabrial capable of many different things could be far more controllable.

 The unmade can affect man, but also Parshendi. So using odium power against him. I wonder if the fused could be crippled in a similar manner as the creation of parshmen, it is basic ly their hate and anger that keeps them around, otherwise they would pass on. If dealt with, the removal of the fused and the containing of the unmade, would greatly alter any future war. Just because they bond to void spren, does not necessarily make them evil. The corrupted high spren that renarin in linked to this proves this, such spren could offer new forms of power. Odium would still be a threat, but he is bound by the rules of the conflict, with out his unmade and fused warriors, his forces would lack true direction, possibly allowing for a true peace to be created.

the is said to be three mindless unmade, I get how that could be applied to bloodlust and gluttony, but why would precognition be mindless. I suppose it could be seen as sort of surrendering your free will to fate.

The thing is don't get, the oath pact seems to keep odium, the fused and void spren away from Roshar in general. Apparently some void spread can creep in I think. But why are the nine not banished to damnation with the rest of their forces. It seem that since they rank high than the fused and the regale,they would be the priority to be dealt with. In fact their presence likely magnified the effects of the desolations.

the unmade reminds me of the horsemen of the apocalypse, or the enemies of man from the DC universe, or simply the seven sins.

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3 hours ago, RShara said:

He won't pick up new shards, but splintering himself wouldn't change his Intent.  Otherwise Endowment would be changing constantly.  As I mentioned in another thread about this:  Say you have a cake.  If you add to the cake, it's no longer the same flavor.  But if you take away a slice, it's still the same cake, just smaller.

If they are splinters of Odium then how would Sja-Anat be able to disobey, Sja-Anat would also be a piece of that cake, albeit smaller. But with the same intent. Which is to be the only shard.

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Odium's Intent isn't to be the only shard.  His Intent is Odium.  RAYSE wants to be the only shard, but that has nothing to do with his Shardic Intent.

Quote
o·di·um
ˈōdēəm/
noun
noun: odium
 
1.
intense hatred or dislike, especially toward a person or thing regarded as contemptible, despicable, or repugnant.
2.
the reproach, discredit, or opprobrium attaching to something hated or repugnant:
He had to bear the odium of neglecting his family.
3.
the state or quality of being hated.

Sja-Anat hating Odium is certainly ironic, but does follow the Intent of the shard.

We've also seen Splinters able to take on their own sentience and purpose, such as on Nalthis, with the Returned, the Seons, Skaize, and so on and so forth.

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There is some in-book proof to support splinters of odium.  

Chapter 30 Mother of lies page 309 of the hardcover: (emphasis mine)

This thing was ancient.  Created long ago as a splinter of the soul of something even more terrible,

Now the part that interests me takes place on the next page:

Almighty above. . . It's like a creationspren.  Only so, so wrong.

So are the unmade spren that odium has corrupted with enough investure to become splinters of odium.  I'm leaning towards this till proven otherwise

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20 hours ago, RShara said:

Brandon also said that there aren't ten Unmade.  The Unmade lack the correlation to the Bondsmiths (although there's not a 1-1 correspondence anyway). And he agrees or at least heavily implies that there are only 9.

I don't understand the phrase  "unmade lack the correlation to the Bondsmiths". It seems to me that Odium's champion and the 9 shadows would be a Bondsmith plus the 9 unmade.

I also have questions about the queen and Amaram having eaten the same unmade. She was taken over but didn't have the crystals that appeared on Amaram 's body. And even with the crystals it seemed that Amaram was mentally still himself to the end.

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29 minutes ago, GoddessIMHO said:

I don't understand the phrase  "unmade lack the correlation to the Bondsmiths". It seems to me that Odium's champion and the 9 shadows would be a Bondsmith plus the 9 unmade.

I also have questions about the queen and Amaram having eaten the same unmade. She was taken over but didn't have the crystals that appeared on Amaram 's body. And even with the crystals it seemed that Amaram was mentally still himself to the end.

So the questioner was comparing the Unmade to the Orders of the Knights Radiant.  So they were asking, if the Unmade were compared to the Orders, which one would be left out, since there are 9 Unmade and 10 Orders.  Brandon responded that the missing order would be Bondsmiths, although the 9 Unmade aren't really the same as the other 9 Orders.

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On 12/15/2017 at 6:02 PM, Ymawgat said:

I think the Sibling (the third bondsmith spren after the stormfather and the nightwatcher) is the tenth Unmade and also Odium's/Rayse's cognitive shadow.

Evidence for this includes:

  • Sja-Anat wanting to switch teams, thereby providing a precedent (well, other way around chronologically but still) for another unmade switching sides.
  • It's super weird that there are only nine unmade, especially seeing as there are 10 voidbinding surges and types according to the voidbinder chart.
  • Occam's razor says that the bondsmiths actually only bond to one, super rare type of spren rather than three completely different types/races of spren, ergo: cognitive shadow spren; the shadows of each shard in the oathpact.

Also how did you get that word in yellow beside your post title?

I don't think you can split off CS from a living person. We haven't seen anyone do anything similar to that, and although the second letter implies the author is making Avatars of themselves, we have no idea what that entails. Are they separate entities or connected or... who knows. 

 

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20 minutes ago, Vortaan said:

I don't think you can split off CS from a living person. We haven't seen anyone do anything similar to that, and although the second letter implies the author is making Avatars of themselves, we have no idea what that entails. Are they separate entities or connected or... who knows. 

We've literally seen this exact thing happen before mate, the Stormfather is a cognitive shadow of Tanavast/Honour (although we don't know how warped by intent his mind was then) and we're told by Syl that the Stormfather and Honour were alive at the same time.

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10 minutes ago, Ymawgat said:

We've literally seen this exact thing happen before mate, the Stormfather is a cognitive shadow of Tanavast/Honour (although we don't know how warped by intent his mind was then) and we're told by Syl that the Stormfather and Honour were alive at the same time.

The Stormfather appears to be a Splinter that also absorbed or was created to augment Tanavast's Cognitive Shadow.  He didn't seem exactly sentient before Honor died, and doesn't have good memories from before then.  It's kind of fuzzy what's exactly going on with the Stormfather.

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1 minute ago, RShara said:

The Stormfather appears to be a Splinter that also absorbed or was created to augment Tanavast's Cognitive Shadow. 

There is literally no evidence for this that I know of.

Brandon has confirmed that the SF is a C.Shadow of Tanavast, and making things more complicated than than that goes against occum's razor. We don't have any reason to believe that that something can't be created as a splinter and CS at the same time, and we know little enough about CSs that you saying "hang on, this isn't how this works, there must be something more complicated going on!" seems both groundless and kind of pointless?

7 minutes ago, RShara said:

He didn't seem exactly sentient before Honor died, and doesn't have good memories from before then.

Well yeah, he's a radiant spren?

7 minutes ago, RShara said:

It's kind of fuzzy what's exactly going on with the Stormfather.

I'm sorry but what exactly is your point in this comment?

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