Robinski - 171211 - TMM, Chapters 1 and 2 - 4497 words (L)

[Robinski]

Hello all,

So, this is an SF novel of ~87,000 words. Some of you will have seen it before (from February to May this year, believe it or not), and I will totally understand if you don't wish to read it again. It has changed since the last time. How much? Well, hopefully just enough!

I won't say much more other than that any comments you have will be most welcome, and to note that it is a story with adult themes. There is swearing aplenty, there are some sexual references and violence in later submissions, and one scene of moderately graphic sexual violence later on.

NB: I would be obliged if you would please REFRAIN from using the title or any 'unique' or identifiable terms from the story, for example the one in the title. Character names should be okay, as they are not unique words. Thanks!

Kind regards, Robinski

[kais]

More Moth and Quirk? Yes please!

Overall

It's a lot tighter than last time! A few areas still could use some work, as noted below. My main question is, what is the purpose of the first Quirk chapter? It doesn't seem to have an arc or purpose. I love it, don't get me wrong, but it doesn't seem to do anything other than introduce Quirk, and for subbing it probably needs some larger goal, like he delivers something or meets someone (moreso than he already does, or make the meeting he does have more important?).

Looking forward to seeing Moth again, too! Nice work!

As I go

- solid first paragraph with a good hook

- Might want to put 'planet' or something in front of 'Groombr....', to give the reader some idea of the where this person's memories are going. A few more specifics in that one sentence would help a lot. Ex: Mining planet Groom 34A1, what a F it had been for everyone, not just the miners on his crew.

- FOX is still around in 2099? *cries*

- I have been advised by numerous agents not to head hop in the first few chapters of a book. General wisdom given to me was to get readers well invested in one character before introducing another, especially as an unknown author. 

- Oh wait, this is the same character, isn't it? You need a way to tie that first segment to the second because even having read this before, it took me a minute to realize it was the same person. Wait AGAIN, and hello from the future. It IS a different person. So much confusion. I actually think it would be a lot more fun to stay in the first POV during the body switch. It would be a great hook.

- page six: so if he has a scrotum already, what is he trying to purchase? The full package? The joke is unclear this time around

- still love that first class line

- 'stick up' still in use in 2099?

- arc? I enjoy the descriptions and such in this chapter, but unsure of its purpose

[Mandamon]

Welcome to the agreement club, where the first rule is agreeing!

...ahem.  I agree with @kais. The intro is much better, and the story already feels tighter. Then it gets to Quirk, and I really enjoy his worldview, buuut...that's all the chapter is. As kais says, if we can get a little more movement on the plot before leaving this chapter, it will get the reader much more invested. I actually remembered Moth being in this one the first time around, but I think I was combining the first few chapters in my head.

Notes while reading:

pg 3: "There were some really cool formations in here"
--in there? Since all of this is past tense.

pg 3: "after this exo "
--his exo?

pg 4: This intro is a lot better than what I remember. Helps to set the scene a lot more.

pg 4: "A.c. first, and can G.c.’s android tech company
--this isn't clear

pg 7: The end of the last chapter falls a little flat because you've already said the doctor has seen many of these mappings. I don't feel like he would be this surprised.

pg 8: "jumps suits"
--jumpsuits?

pg 9: Why does the ITT acronym not have the same letters as the full name? Wouldn't it be ITH?

pg 9: "fresh. in his head"
--extra period

pg 11: "well-healed "
--well-heeled

pg 12: "a food deal cheaper"
--I assume the local currency is not based on coupons for meals...
 

[industrialistDragon]

It'll be interesting to finally get the beginning of this, since I started somewhere in the early middle!

 

But going in, the  first thing that strikes me about this introductory section is how much there is going on in it that has nothing to do with the primary story I read in the later parts. There're a lot of... gimmicks, for lack of better word. The binary chapter numbers, the trademark icons, the footnotes, the fact that there's what's basically a prologue to the B-plot POV character AND a B-plot POV character introduction with an extra POV from the doctor-guy BEFORE we meet the protagonist -- it's a lot of ... noise? ... to sort through right off the bat, when I'm trying to get a handle on the protagonist and the world. Without prior knowledge of the story and without the series name subtitle, I'd be fairly confused as to which part of this section I was supposed to regard as the actual beginning with the actual protagonist. 

If this is a work intending to be shopped around to a US market, I'd listen to @kais and really, really streamline these first 50 pages or so.  Increase the signal to noise ratio early on, so readers are clear it's Quirk's story even if they miss the series subtitle (and I often only see a series name for the first time when I'm looking for the book on Amazon after I've read it) and add some of the stuff back in slowly later on. For instance, I've gone the entire rest of the novel, minus the 7 or so chapters I missed initially, without knowing what the name of their future scifi pocket internet device means, and I did just fine.  Same with the name of the space transfer station. The amount I gain from knowing the meaning of the acronym is tiny compared to the confusion and immersion-breaking frustration I feel when I see footnotes, which is compounded by everything else going on. 

(I know you know how I feel about footnotes. This is the last I'll say on them for this time around.  Or I'll try anyway.  I'm passionate because I like the story!  ) 

 

"some sexual references ... in later submissions" -- Um. I'm hard-pressed to find a single, whole page in this section that isn't making a sexual reference, sexual joke, or pointing out someone's genitals and/or someone else's interest in someone's genitals somewhere on it...  The acts described get more graphic later on from what I remember, but, I mean. I'm just sayin'.

I agree with @Mandamon that Quirk's chapter seems more study than introduction, especially combined with the other chapterlet-parts preceding it. The description is done well and colorfully, and sets up the place nicely. Quirk's personality is also well on display, and I do like a character that knows his couture sewing techniques! However, it doesn't seem to be going anywhere right now. If the other POVs weren't before it, maybe I'd be willing to give Quirk's part more legroom, but as it is, well, spinning in a circle is fun and all, but at some point I want to know where I'm going. 

I am also finding that Quirk without Moth is not nearly as compelling as Quirk with Moth, so I'm definitely looking forward to seeing how Moth has changed!   

[Robinski]

On 12/12/2017 at 3:02 AM, kais said:

It's a lot tighter than last time!

Phew (breathes sigh of relief).

On 12/12/2017 at 3:02 AM, kais said:

what is the purpose of the first Quirk chapter?

Fair comment. I will do as you suggest. I feel like there is a way I can achieve (more of) an arc. It is first and foremost the introduction, but I take the point that it needs to do more.

On 12/12/2017 at 3:02 AM, kais said:

A few more specifics in that one sentence

Agreed - will do.

On 12/12/2017 at 3:02 AM, kais said:

I have been advised by numerous agents not to head hop in the first few chapters of a book.

Hrmm... that's a harder one. I've heard this too via WE, etc., but that doesn't make it easy. I'll sit, stare out the window and think about that. The least I can do is try and tidy up the head-hoping.

Great comments, thanks kais, very much appreciated  

[Robinski]

Hey, thank you for commenting!

I like agreement club  In future, if it looks like I'm going to disagree on anything, I will 'tap out', or possibly 'go limp'.

On 12/12/2017 at 8:22 PM, Mandamon said:

The intro is much better, and the story already feels tighter.

Awesome.

On 12/12/2017 at 8:22 PM, Mandamon said:

Then it gets to Quirk, and I really enjoy his worldview, buuut...

Got it. I can work with that.

All line edits much appreciated. I will get onto those.

On 12/12/2017 at 8:22 PM, Mandamon said:

I actually remembered Moth being in this one the first time around, but I think I was combining the first few chapters in my head.

I'm going to take that as a good thing, I think.

Great comments, thank you  

[Robinski]

Hey ID, thank you so much for commenting.

7 hours ago, industrialistDragon said:

BEFORE we meet the protagonist -- it's a lot of ... noise? ... to sort through right off the bat, when I'm trying to get a handle on the protagonist and the world

7 hours ago, industrialistDragon said:

so readers are clear it's Quirk's story

7 hours ago, industrialistDragon said:

However, it doesn't seem to be going anywhere right now.

Yep, I hear what you (and the others) say I'm going to need to ponder that, I do have a farming scene that I've never shared. My problem with it is that it reveals part of the ending, and I'm not sure how to get over that. After I've pondered this, I might PM the framing scene to those who have read the whole story. As I type, I realise there is another problem with that framing scene... hmm. Either way, I can do this!!

7 hours ago, industrialistDragon said:

The amount I gain from knowing the meaning of the acronym is tiny compared to the confusion and immersion-breaking frustration I feel when I see footnotes

Yeah, okay. I kind of love/hate them myself.

7 hours ago, industrialistDragon said:

I'm passionate because I like the story!

Awesome

7 hours ago, industrialistDragon said:

Um. I'm hard-pressed to find a single, whole page in this section that isn't making a sexual reference, sexual joke, or pointing out someone's genitals and/or someone else's interest in someone's genitals somewhere on it... 

Erm, you may have a point there...

7 hours ago, industrialistDragon said:

so I'm definitely looking forward to seeing how Moth has changed

I'm pleased that you enjoy the combo more, and that @Mandamon remembers them together when they weren't. I won't say anything about Moth, other than that I feel I have addressed a major (entirely valid) criticism of later passages.

Thanks for commenting, ID. I really appreciate your perspective.

 

[Robinski]

On 12/12/2017 at 3:02 AM, kais said:

so if he has a scrotum already, what is he trying to purchase? The full package? The joke is unclear this time around

Hey, going through edits now. This was intended to be a small clue to Callan's personality, but is just the doctor telling him to touch any part of his body. Callan's paralysed human form still has a scrotum, he just can't touch it, move his arms, or anything below the neck.

On 12/12/2017 at 3:02 AM, kais said:

'stick up' still in use in 2099?

Do you think it wouldn't be? Seems to me that language is much more accessible and proliferated by way of the net, and culture being much more diverse, not to mention humankind's much greater wealth of archived material now, along with the ability to access it (relatively) easily. I considered other words that I could use, like 'heist', 'robbery' and 'mugging', but is any of them (well, robbery, I suppose, as the more grammatically correct term) any less likely to have died out by 2099?

On 12/12/2017 at 8:22 PM, Mandamon said:

I assume the local currency is not based on coupons for meals

Lol. 'food deal' was a typo, obvs, but it does make me think now...  

Thanks for the edits you two. More improvement. Thanks!!! I've added a return to Callan's POV at the end of the first chapter, dealing with his transition back to his body (great notion, thanks kais). It really does bring the arc of that first chapter home, I think. I read this recently somewhere on WE, about chapter arcs and it applies even more to Q's first chapter (Chp2), of course. I'm going to try and tackle that now.

 

[Robinski]

So, I'm back at the editing:

On 14/12/2017 at 0:31 AM, industrialistDragon said:

a prologue to the B-plot POV character AND a B-plot POV character introduction with an extra POV from the doctor-guy BEFORE we meet the protagonist

I take your point about the delay in meeting the protagonist. I would not have said that Callan represents the B-plot, I think he is the one driving the main plot, isn't he? It's his actions that trigger Q&M going on their 'journey' (physically speaking), after all. On the delay thing, with your forbearance (I hope!), I will message you a framing scene of sorts, with the notion that it could sit at the start. Maybe?

On 14/12/2017 at 0:31 AM, industrialistDragon said:

without knowing what the name of their future scifi pocket internet device means,

Yeah, I'm taking the footnotes out. I was never sold on them myself, but you've sealed their fate.

On 14/12/2017 at 0:31 AM, industrialistDragon said:

Quirk's chapter seems more study than introduction

This is the big take-away from this submission, and I still need to cogitate upon how to deal with that. More later  

Thanks again!

[Mandamon]

8 hours ago, Robinski said:

Yeah, I'm taking the footnotes out. I was never sold on them myself, but you've sealed their fate.

Oh no! I'm a sucker for footnotes, but then, I've also been know to eat a handful of sprinkles, so my taste in toppings (written or eaten) might be suspect.

[industrialistDragon]

9 hours ago, Robinski said:

I take your point about the delay in meeting the protagonist. I would not have said that Callan represents the B-plot, I think he is the one driving the main plot, isn't he? It's his actions that trigger Q&M going on their 'journey' (physically speaking), after all.

But we don't know that until nearly the end. At this point in the beginning, he's just some rando (for that matter, so's Quirk, which is part of the problem). Also, again, who's the protagonist? Why are we even following callahan's story? It's not for his own sake, it's because he intersects with Quirk at some point down the line and his POV makes Quirk's story deeper or more nuanced. Or something. 

Also I spent the day dealing with dye fumes so I'm a little loopy. I hope that made sense. >_>;

Yes, I will be happy to read over whatever you want! I will also do that on Monday, when there's a better chance I won't be loopy...

9 hours ago, Robinski said:

Yeah, I'm taking the footnotes out. I was never sold on them myself, but you've sealed their fate

Now I feel vaguely guilty... >_>; 

[Robinski]

3 hours ago, Mandamon said:

but then, I've also been know to eat a handful of sprinkles

Yeah, the footnotes... I said before I was love/hate. I think I will adopt the approach of removing them from this draft; submitting to Angry Robot; getting a book deal; then suggesting to the editor that we put them back in 

[Robinski]

2 hours ago, industrialistDragon said:

Now I feel vaguely guilty...

Serves you right  

(No, really - don't stress about it. They can always go back in. I'll keep them in a box with some straw and a dish of water, and air holes, of course. They'll be fine. If there isn't a place for them in TMM, or TCC, or TRR, then I'll send them to Christopher Tolkien's home for Abandoned Footnotes.)

Edited December 16, 2017 by Robinski

[Mandamon]

6 hours ago, Robinski said:

I think I will adopt the approach of removing them from this draft; submitting to Angry Robot; getting a book deal; then suggesting to the editor that we put them back in 

That's a solid plan. When I get my book deal with Angry Robot I'll back you up...

[kais]

4 hours ago, Mandamon said:

When I get my book deal with Angry Robot I'll back you up...

Same. All for one and one for all!