(OB) Eshonai

[Pezhistory]

Here is a one. Pure speculation and I can’t find any thing to substantiate it, but for some reason I think Eshoni=Timbre.  

 

I know about the comet spren that was around Eshoni in WOR.  But she never bonded. Why would it be at hanging around her dead body?  

 

I know that this breaks all kinds of rules and exceptions to rules used by authors are never fair to readers, but it is just a feeling.

[Yata]

Timbre can't be' Eshonai.

First of all is almost Realmatic impossibile to her becoming a CS and transition in the PR.

Much more as you said, Timbre was already showed in WoR around Eshonai.

She was probably trying to bond her but bond a Listener is not Easy and equal to an Human. The only istance when Timbre had a chance was when Eshonai took the Stormform and She failed.

Other reasons for Timbre to be' a Radiant Spren are:

- She gave to Venli the Surgebinding

- She explicity said to Venli that the Humans killed his granpa and Venli replied She had no idea that the Humans killed so many of Timbre's kind. This implies Timbre and Venli's kinds are not the same.

Timbre is a Lightspren (most likely the willshaper's Spren) and more specifically She could be Ico's daugher.

He said his daugher left the work to Chase impossibile Dreams and he has a deadeyes (his father) looked in the ship. That deadeyes is likely the Timbre's grandpa killed by a Radiant during the Recreance

[Stark]

13 hours ago, Pezhistory said:

Why would it be at hanging around her dead body?

Maybe for the same reason the pattern was hanging out around where Elhokar died?  If a true spren crosses over to the PR for the sake of bonding a proto-radiant, we know it takes a huge toll on their mental faculties.  Faculties that only slowly start to recover once the bond is formed and strengthens.  We also know that it is highly traumatic for a spren to have their bondmate die.  If you take a partially bonded spren, who has not recovered its mental capabilities yet, whose proto-radiant dies, it make sense to me that between the death trauma, and the loss of mental capacity that comes from transitioning that the spren would stay in the area.  It would stay there till two things happen.

 

First, it needs to recover from the trauma of death.  Second, it needs a new suitable bondmate to start attracting it so that it can start to build up its mind and start to redevelop its will, rather than be mindless.  Add to that, the seemingly instinctual need to hide to not be destroyed by the mentally older and more plentiful voidspren that are everywhere.

 

So Timbre could not leave Eshonai's body because Timbre had not recovered from the death trauma, or developed her mind enough to act on anything other than the instinct to hide from all the psycho spren that came out during the storm.  Then Venli came and triggered the bonding instinct, allowing Timbre to move on.

 

Elhokar's Pattern was hiding in a city filled with enemies and Unmade hunting it after that unfortunate event, and it took someone filled to the brim with lies and truths to attract it to safety.  As an aside, I am intrigued that each Cryptic we have encountered is named Pattern.  I believe there was something Pattern mentioned about his name actually being numerical, so Pattern would suffice.  So do all Cryptics have numerical pattern names?  Is there a Pattern whose name is the Fibonacci Sequence?  Is the Pattern who leads Cryptic society named using the number sequence of the Julia Set that gives Roshar its shape?

 

So I think newly transitioned, or traumatized spren are extremely limited in the actions they can take other basic instinctual moves until they recover.  If they are newly transitioned and traumatized, good luck little spren, you're going to need it.

[WardenGiggles]

Is this Cryptic's name Pattern or does he just refer to it as Pattern with a capital P so we know what kind of spren it is?

[Aminar]

On 12/10/2017 at 9:14 PM, Yata said:

Timbre can't be' Eshonai.

First of all is almost Realmatic impossibile to her becoming a CS and transition in the PR.

Much more as you said, Timbre was already showed in WoR around Eshonai.

She was probably trying to bond her but bond a Listener is not Easy and equal to an Human. The only istance when Timbre had a chance was when Eshonai took the Stormform and She failed.

Other reasons for Timbre to be' a Radiant Spren are:

- She gave to Venli the Surgebinding

- She explicity said to Venli that the Humans killed his granpa and Venli replied She had no idea that the Humans killed so many of Timbre's kind. This implies Timbre and Venli's kinds are not the same.

Timbre is a Lightspren (most likely the willshaper's Spren) and more specifically She could be Ico's daugher.

He said his daugher left the work to Chase impossibile Dreams and he has a deadeyes (his father) looked in the ship. That deadeyes is likely the Timbre's grandpa killed by a Radiant during the Recreance

I suspect that Lightspren(a thing that makes little sense) are actually Passion Spren. The fact that Timbre can pulse to the Rhythms is quite suggestive. 

And Spren associated with Odium/Passion who aren't Voidspren might want to camouflage/obfuscate their true nature. 

But yes Timbre is not Eshonai. 

[RShara]

I think Timbre is a willshaper spren?  Which means they're probably the Reachers that we saw in Shadesmar.  Also, we've seen passionspren and they're not one of the sapient ones.

[Aminar]

45 minutes ago, RShara said:

I think Timbre is a willshaper spren?  Which means they're probably the Reachers that we saw in Shadesmar.  Also, we've seen passionspren and they're not one of the sapient ones.

passionspren are different from Passion Spren. We haven't seen a Spren directly for Odium's shardic nature yet. We should in theory see one about 1/3 of the way around the list from Honor and Cultivation Spren. 

[Yata]

4 hours ago, Aminar said:

I suspect that Lightspren(a thing that makes little sense) are actually Passion Spren. The fact that Timbre can pulse to the Rhythms is quite suggestive. 

And Spren associated with Odium/Passion who aren't Voidspren might want to camouflage/obfuscate their true nature. 

But yes Timbre is not Eshonai. 

But Lightspren (or Reachers) are actually Radiant Spren (we know this for sure thanks to Ico's father) and we know Odium has Almost no part in Surgebinding and Radiant Spren.

I don't understand Why Timbre's pluses link to Odium/Passion, we saw the Lightspren comunicate with pulses in the CR.. It's a feature of their race

 

Did i missed something of your idea? 

[Cenanin]

On 12/10/2017 at 6:42 PM, Pezhistory said:

Here is a one. Pure speculation and I can’t find any thing to substantiate it, but for some reason I think Eshoni=Timbre.  

 

I know about the comet spren that was around Eshoni in WOR.  But she never bonded. Why would it be at hanging around her dead body?  

 

I know that this breaks all kinds of rules and exceptions to rules used by authors are never fair to readers, but it is just a feeling.

I personally don't think there is any evidence to support that Timbre is the same spren that was by Eshonai's corpse. People say it is for sure, but I think Timbre is unreliable as a source of information, and Timbre doesn't actually speak once. Venli might not be interpreting Timbre right. A lot of people think there is no evidence for Timbre as Eshonai, but I think there's tons and tons of it for Timbre at least being related to a parshendi "spirit" that resides in their gemhearts, they "hear" the rhythms, and Eshonai heard screaming deep down(because her spirit was screaming from the voidspren occupying the house with them). I think this type of spren comes from the parshendi soul inhabiting their gemheart. I don't think it's their conscious or even their memory but what resides in the parshendi gemheart. I mean, it communicates by attuning rhythms not by speaking like all of the other spren we've seen on screen. People say there was a comet like blue spren following Eshonai around in WoR, but I can't find a single sentence besides red lightning like spren that she sees in the storm. Brandon loves to use unreliable narration and outright deception from characters. I also think it's a completely brand new spren type and not related to an existing order of KR. Supposedly voidspren never bonded humans before this, but just look at Renarin. Everything about the past we've been told cannot be held to the new everstorm desolation. It's brand new territory. Even Jasnah acknowledges that, she even says something to the effect of "everything I learned from the Highspren is no longer accurate", to Wit. I'd really, really love to know what Wit told Jasnah, I think we're being lied to about the Recreance, and pretty much everything else. Basically most of what we know from the history can be thrown out the window IMHO.

[WardenGiggles]

8 hours ago, Cenanin said:

A lot of people think there is no evidence for Timbre as Eshonai, but I think there's tons and tons of it for Timbre at least being related to a parshendi "spirit" that resides in their gemhearts, they "hear" the rhythms, and Eshonai heard screaming deep down(because her spirit was screaming from the voidspren occupying the house with them).

In WoR I assumed the screaming was because something else had basically made Eshonai a prisoner in her own body and the screaming she heard was the real Eshonai. I guess that's less likely than the screaming being from the spren now though.

[stonedshaman]

Renarin didn't bond a voidspren though he bonded a corrupted radiantspren.  

[Cenanin]

6 hours ago, stonedshaman said:

Renarin didn't bond a voidspren though he bonded a corrupted radiantspren.  

What's the difference? They're all spren, the one Renarin bonded is literally corrupt. It's red. The voidspren are red, It's corrupted by Odium's magic. It's said to have never happened before.

Edited December 14, 2017 by Cenanin

[Cenanin]

8 hours ago, WardenGiggles said:

In WoR I assumed the screaming was because something else had basically made Eshonai a prisoner in her own body and the screaming she heard was the real Eshonai. I guess that's less likely than the screaming being from the spren now though.

I'm not saying this is the case. I'm saying that there is a lot of evidence for something else in the parshendi gemhearts. Lots of little hints. Phrases like "Venli heard the rhythms, etc."
Those rhythms are coming from somewhere, and it's odd a strange spren shows up and starts pulsing the rhythms out. I don't think this is oversight by Brandon, and what I find even more strange is that Venli speaks and communicates through language. Timbre doesn't. I would assume that the spren just adopt or know the bondee's language, and it's not like Venli or any of the parshendi go around just humming and communicating like that. It seems like the spren communicate in the most direct way possible, and it seems to me that for Venli, it's through the spoken tongue. Not the rhythms, but I could be wrong.

[RShara]

11 minutes ago, Cenanin said:

What's the difference? They're all spren, the one Renarin bonded is literally corrupt. It's red. It's corrupted by Odium's magic. It's said to have never happened before.

Voidspren are a specific type of spren, the ones that Odium can control directly.

Glys is a corrupted Radiantspren.  As in, it was touched by Sja-Anat, so isn't a normal radiant spren any more.  However, given that Glys doesn't seem particularly obedient to Odium, and Sja-anat is trying to rebel as well, I would say there is quite a bit of difference.

[Cenanin]

11 minutes ago, RShara said:

Voidspren are a specific type of spren, the ones that Odium can control directly.

Glys is a corrupted Radiantspren.  As in, it was touched by Sja-Anat, so isn't a normal radiant spren any more.  However, given that Glys doesn't seem particularly obedient to Odium, and Sja-anat is trying to rebel as well, I would say there is quite a bit of difference.

I would say that there "might" be quite a difference. I read and I might be missing something(probably am) nothing about Glys having anything to do with Sja-Anat. That whole sequence with Sja-Anat is confusing and there's really not enough information to know what's going on. We don't even know what the unmade really are. You're right though, Glys doesn't seem obedient to Odium. But Odium isn't omnipotent(or is it omniscient?), can't just mind control his followers all at once, and doesn't even suspect Venli. Can he lay the mind control down on Glys when it suits him or what? Glys is definitely co-opted by Odium. How far does that go? 

Learn me, how do we know voidspren aren't just corrupted spren?

Edited December 14, 2017 by Cenanin

[RShara]

Because so far as we have been able to see, voidspren don't grant surges.  Renarin has Regrowth and some sort of future-vision ability.  Basically, it seems like he has one Surge and one voidbind ability.  This would fit in with Glys being a corrupted radiantspren.

In addition, Sja-Anat talks about his "son", who is likely Glys. (Who else is there that might be a "son" of Sja-Anat?)

 

Additionally, that chapter states explicitly that Glys was changed.

Quote

Renarin Kholin knew he wasn’t actually a Knight Radiant. Glys had once been a different kind of spren, but something had changed him, corrupted him. Glys didn’t remember that very well; it had happened before they had formed their bond.

 

Edited December 14, 2017 by RShara

[Cenanin]

7 hours ago, RShara said:

Because so far as we have been able to see, voidspren don't grant surges.  Renarin has Regrowth and some sort of future-vision ability.  Basically, it seems like he has one Surge and one voidbind ability.  This would fit in with Glys being a corrupted radiantspren.

In addition, Sja-Anat talks about his "son", who is likely Glys. (Who else is there that might be a "son" of Sja-Anat?)

 

Additionally, that chapter states explicitly that Glys was changed.

 

Right, and I agree with you up to the point that Glys is probably a KR spren corrupted(but how?) Why wouldn't Odium just corrupt them all if he can corrupt one? They probably had to willfully accept his influence. Which is troubling. What the parshendi are calling "voidspren" do not grant surges. But the Fused do. Maybe the fused are just dead voidspren that eventually learn to use surges. Who knows? If they are spirits of the parshendi that is evidence to the fact that parshendi gemhearts contain a "soul-spren" their entire life, that sings rhythms, and screams when sharing the gemheart with voidspren. Venli can see the cognitive realm, and perhaps that's why she sees Timbre. 

A son of Sja-Anat could be anyone, maybe not even a spren, we don't know if the unmade are related to the spren for sure, they could be from somewhere else, Sel. If it was simply Glys I don't think Brandon would leave it up to such a mystery, there's no reason Sja-Anat couldn't just say "Ask my son, Glys." It's typical Sanderson, misdirection and deceptive dialogue, Like Sazed, I didn't see that coming but in hindsight it was obvious.  There are going to be "10" "Ten" books in the SA and there is a metric ..... ton of secrets and lies that have not been revealed to us. Odium has interacted with more of the other shards than any other shard after leaving Yolen(we seem to know the shardbearers agreed to split up and not settle two or more to a planet, but some broke the agreement). Odium went to Sel splintered presumably Devotion and Dominion, Threnody(no shard right? Or was it confirmed there is in a WoB? Ambition splintered?), Braize and trapped in the Rosharan system presumably by honor. The unmade could literally be from anywhere, maybe they are corrupted Devotion and Dominion(the Thrill? would that line up with Dominions intent?) splinters, who knows what Odium brought with him. 

[aemetha]

5 minutes ago, Cenanin said:

Threnody(no shard right? Or was it confirmed there is in a WoB? Ambition splintered?)

They fought in the threnody system, but the actual splintering took place elsewhere. According to Khriss.

10 minutes ago, Cenanin said:

The unmade could literally be from anywhere, maybe they are corrupted Devotion and Dominion(the Thrill? would that line up with Dominions intent?) splinters, who knows what Odium brought with him. 

This would require some semantic shenanigans. It is confirmed that the unmade are spren, and that the term spren is unique to Roshar, though there are similar, arising from the same basic rules but developing in different directions, entities on other worlds such as the Seons of Sel.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/91-general-twitter-2015/#e819

Quote

David J Foster

I name my computers and smartphones after spren. But I am out of names. Is there a name you wouldn't mind revealing?

Brandon Sanderson

Well, do you need good spren? Or is the occasional evil spren acceptable?

David J Foster

Your call! And evil spren would be fantastic for my new phone.

Brandon Sanderson

Ulim. (Also, the Unmade count as spren. You could look those up.)

johnny papshmere

I didn't think spren could be good or evil??

Brandon Sanderson

Most spren are neither. Sapient spren (capable of making choices) can be either one

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/91-general-twitter-2015/#e817

Quote

Alex Hetu

If you went to Shadesmar on Scadrial would there be spren there?

Brandon Sanderson

"Spren" is a term for things on Roshar. So yes, there are a few, but they're from Roshar originally.

 

[Cenanin]

3 minutes ago, aemetha said:

They fought in the threnody system, but the actual splintering took place elsewhere. According to Khriss.

This would require some semantic shenanigans. It is confirmed that the unmade are spren, and that the term spren is unique to Roshar, though there are similar, arising from the same basic rules but developing in different directions, entities on other worlds such as the Seons of Sel.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/91-general-twitter-2015/#e819

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/91-general-twitter-2015/#e817

 

He says that the Unmade "count" as spren. He's said Nightblood "counts" as a spren if I'm not mistaken. That doesn't mean the unmade are spren from Roshar. IMO spren is a term for an idea or value or intent given sapient/sentient form in the cognitive realm as a direct result of investiture. He also says "Spren" is a term for things on Roshar, that seems to imply at least to me that what Rosharans call Spren, Threnodians call something else, and Elantrians call Seons but if they show up on Roshar, they would be Spren.

[RShara]

33 minutes ago, Cenanin said:

Right, and I agree with you up to the point that Glys is probably a KR spren corrupted(but how?) Why wouldn't Odium just corrupt them all if he can corrupt one? They probably had to willfully accept his influence. Which is troubling. What the parshendi are calling "voidspren" do not grant surges. But the Fused do. Maybe the fused are just dead voidspren that eventually learn to use surges. Who knows? If they are spirits of the parshendi that is evidence to the fact that parshendi gemhearts contain a "soul-spren" their entire life, that sings rhythms, and screams when sharing the gemheart with voidspren. Venli can see the cognitive realm, and perhaps that's why she sees Timbre. 

A son of Sja-Anat could be anyone, maybe not even a spren, we don't know if the unmade are related to the spren for sure, they could be from somewhere else, Sel. If it was simply Glys I don't think Brandon would leave it up to such a mystery, there's no reason Sja-Anat couldn't just say "Ask my son, Glys." It's typical Sanderson, misdirection and deceptive dialogue, Like Sazed, I didn't see that coming but in hindsight it was obvious.  There are going to be "10" "Ten" books in the SA and there is a metric ..... ton of secrets and lies that have not been revealed to us. Odium has interacted with more of the other shards than any other shard after leaving Yolen(we seem to know the shardbearers agreed to split up and not settle two or more to a planet, but some broke the agreement). Odium went to Sel splintered presumably Devotion and Dominion, Threnody(no shard right? Or was it confirmed there is in a WoB? Ambition splintered?), Braize and trapped in the Rosharan system presumably by honor. The unmade could literally be from anywhere, maybe they are corrupted Devotion and Dominion(the Thrill? would that line up with Dominions intent?) splinters, who knows what Odium brought with him. 

Anything Sja-Anat touches gets corrupted, or "Enlightened" as he puts it.  She corrupted a whole bunch in Kholinar.  Glys was just unlucky/lucky enough to be one that was corrupted and then got bonded.

The humans sometimes give their spren their name, unless the spren remembers and is willing to communicate their name.  Pattern, for instance.  Ym never named his spren, iirc.  Venli names Timbre. I think Ivory took up that name in irony.  So Sja-Anat wouldn't necessarily have known Glys's name.

 

I'm not sure what you mean by "We don't know if the unmade are related to the spren for sure."  Sja-anat considers the spren she's corrupted as her children.

 

The Unmade are Splinters of Odium. 

Quote

WeiryWriter

Are the Unmade Splinters of Odium?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. Good guess.

 

Edited December 15, 2017 by RShara
Typos

[aemetha]

This WoB is a little less ambiguous. He's referred to them as spren more than once. I'm not saying it's an absolute certainty, hence why I say it requires some semantic shenanigans to come from off world. I certainly don't discount the possibility of semantic shenanigans.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/223-words-of-radiance-seattle-signing/#e6234

Quote

Questioner

Are the Unmade the analogs to Heralds?

Brandon Sanderson

There is certainly something similar going on there. Be aware that it's not a one-to-one correlation, that they're not exactly the same. For instance: Many of the- the Unmade are referenced by Taravangian in this, and he uses a phrase for them, and that is correct, that's what they are.

 

Footnote: In the epigraph for WoR 81 the Diagram says "The Unmade are a deviation, a flair, a conundrum that may not be worth your time. You cannot help but think of them. They are fascinating. Many are mindless. Like the spren of human emotions, only much more nasty. I do believe a few can think, however."

 

[RShara]

The Rosharans call any sentient piece of investiture "spren."  So yes, technically they are spren.  But they are confirmed Splinters of Odium.

[Cenanin]

9 minutes ago, RShara said:

Anything Sja-Anat touches gets corrupted, or "Enlightened" as he puts it.  She corrupted a whole bunch in Kholinar.  Glys was just unlucky/lucky enough to be one that was corrupted and then got bonded.

The humans sometimes give their spren their name, unless the spren remembers and is willing to communicate their name.  Pattern, for instance.  Ym never named his spren, iirc.  Venli names Timbre. I think Ivory took up that name in irony.  So Sja-Anat wouldn't necessarily have known Glys's name.

 

I'm not sure what you mean by "We don't know if the unmade are related to the spren for sure."  Sja-anat considers the spren she's corrupted as her children.

 

The Unmade are Splinters of Odium. 

 

"Unique among the Unmade" - What? Aren't they all unique?

"Her admiration of the spren of our world inspires her."

You don't find that a little.......odd?

I'd actually like to ask Brandon that question in a more specific way. I swear he has said Odium will not take up splintered shards, because it would change his intent. Why would he splinter himself? He would change his intent that way as well. 

[RShara]

I don't understand what you're trying to say with the quotes.  What part am I to find odd?

No it wouldn't.  He'd be a little less powerful, depending on how much Investiture he gave up.  But giving up some of his power wouldn't change his intent.  Why would it? 
Was Preservation any less Preservation for giving up a bunch of his power to make humans?  Is Endowment any less Endowment for making Returned?

And yes, he has said that Odium would not take up other Shards because he likes his Intent the way it is.

Edited December 15, 2017 by RShara

[Calderis]

Odium's intent is pure. If he creates a Splinter, his intent is unaltered. 

Picking up another shard would mix that intent with his own and alter what he is, but removing a piece of something pure does not alter its composition.