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[OB] Lift's Curse - Nightmares


Llarimar

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I have been trying to figure out what Lift's boon and curse are.  I think that her boon is that she can metabolize food into Stormlight (although there might be more to it than that).  I used to think that her curse might therefore be, on the flip side, that she cannot draw in Stormlight.  There was a discussion thread started a few weeks ago that I found, where this was confirmed - Lift can only derive Stormlight from food, which could be seen as both a blessing and a curse. 

But there are several reasons to believe that Lift's curse has something to do with nightmares.  There is a line in Edgedancer seems to suggest that Lift doesn't like falling asleep, and at the time I thought it was because her curse was having frequent nightmares.

Quote

She yawned, shifting on her stolen shiqua blanket and swatting at some lifespren that were floating around.  She hadn't dreamed, thankfully.  She hated dreams.  They either showed her a life she couldn't have, or a life that terrified her.  What was the good of either one?

Looking back, I am much less certain that this line actually suggests Lift has nightmares, although at the time I read it I was very certain.  But there is some evidence in Oathbringer to suggest I might be right.  

For one thing, we don't know what the Nightwatcher is the spren of - I'm pretty sure this was discussed in an earlier thread.  The Stormfather is the spren of the storm, the Sibling is the spren of Urithiru (possibly), and think that the Nightwatcher is the spren of dreams.  It would make a lot of sense, since people go to the Nightwatcher to make their dreams come true, and she rewards them with something good (like a dream) and something bad (like a nightmare). This is further suggested in OB when Dalinar visits the Nightwatcher.

Quote

What would you like? the Nightwatcher asked.  Renown?  Wealth?  Skill?  Would you like to be able to swing a sword and never tire?

"No," Dalinar whispered.

Beauty?  Followers?  I can feed your dreams, make you glorious.  

So I think it's a real possibility that the Nightwatcher is the spren of dreams.  There is an element in Oathbringer that makes me think that Dalinar's visions are sort of like dreams, and so it seems plausible that the Nightwatcher might be able to influence them - the fact that Lift can enter Dalinar's visions

Because Lift can enter his visions, it makes me wonder if her curse is somehow related to the nightmares of other people.  I think that the Nightwatcher, being the spren of dreams, cursed her so that every time she sleeps, she sees other people's dreams - "a life she couldn't have" - or other people's nightmares - " a life that terrified her."  So Lift is able to enter Dalinar's visions because they are essentially dreams. 

The Stormfather himself makes a comment when Lift appears that makes it seem like that the Nightwatcher somehow orchestrated Lift's ability to enter the visions.  

Quote

The Stormfather rumbled in frustration.  That woman!  This is a creation specifically meant to defy my will!

"Woman?" Dalinar asked, shaking his head.

That child is tainted by the Nightwatcher.

"Technically, so am I."

This is different.  This is unnatural.  She goes too far.

I think it seems possible that the Nightwatcher actually extended her powers to Lift.  The Nightwatcher is a spren, and Lift is more sprenlike than normal humans - she is partially in the Cognitive realm at all times, which allows her to touch Wyndle.  Lift is also able to turn food into Stormlight, and the Nightwatcher is very connected with Cultivation, who is connected with growth, food and vegetation.  And Lift can enter other people's dreams, while the Nightwatcher is the spren of dreams (according to my theory).

I am starting to think that Cultivation is launching a major plot behind the scenes to topple Odium in a way he least expects it, and that her plan has something to do with her possible influence over Taravangian, and her possible influence over Lift.  

I am not sure how Lift's potential ability to see other people's dreams relates to her boon and curse, or if I am wrong about this whole thing, but it's definitely interesting to think about.  

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At this point I'm inclined to think Lift is another part of Cultivations plan and just like Dalinar, her boon was given by C herself, so she may not necessarily have a curse like we're used to expect. Lift is a street urchin, who lost her mother young and who knows what sort of horrors she lived through, having nightmares and being afraid of dreaming can be explained naturally. She was able to walk into Dalinra's visions, which I still don't get how it happened, but I don't think the mechanism of dreams and visions is necessarily the same.

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8 minutes ago, Aleksiel said:

At this point I'm inclined to think Lift is another part of Cultivations plan and just like Dalinar, her boon was given by C herself, so she may not necessarily have a curse like we're used to expect.  Lift is a street urchin, who lost her mother young and who knows what sort of horrors she lived through, having nightmares and being afraid of dreaming can be explained naturally. 

I think this is true, but Lift says that her dreams showed her "a life she couldn't have," which isn't typically how we think of dreams, and makes me think that something might be going on with Lift. 

I don't know if Lift was given her boon specifically by Cultivation or the Nightwatcher, but I am not sure if it makes a huge difference.  The Nightwatcher is just a pawn of Cultivation, and I feel like Cultivation could force her to obey her desires if she wanted to.  The fact that Dalinar was touched by Cultivation specifically didn't seem to matter to me very much - it was almost like Brandon just wanted us to meet Cultivation as a character, because the actual outcome of the curse and boon could have been given by the Nightwatcher and it wouldn't really have made a difference.  Plus I think that Cultivation directly interfering in the Nightwatcher's boons is extremely rare, so it seems unlikely that two of the characters in the story would have it happen to them.  

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1 minute ago, Llarimar said:

I think this is true, but Lift says that her dreams showed her "a life she couldn't have," which isn't typically how we think of dreams, and makes me think that something might be going on with Lift.

People have good dreams, too, but I'll think some more on the quote. Lift is partly in the CR, which is closer to the SR, so it might influence her dreams somehow.

2 minutes ago, Llarimar said:

I don't know if Lift was given her boon specifically by Cultivation or the Nightwatcher, but I am not sure if it makes a huge difference.  The Nightwatcher is just a pawn of Cultivation, and I feel like Cultivation could force her to obey her desires if she wanted to.  The fact that Dalinar was touched by Cultivation specifically didn't seem to matter to me very much - it was almost like Brandon just wanted us to meet Cultivation as a character, because the actual outcome of the curse and boon could have been given by the Nightwatcher and it wouldn't really have made a difference.  Plus I think that Cultivation directly interfering in the Nightwatcher's boons is extremely rare, so it seems unlikely that two of the characters in the story would have it happen to them.  

It was important C did it and not NW, because NW's boons are permanent whereas C set his memory to return when the time was right and Dalinar didn't get a curse in my opinion. C said what she did was beyond what NW could do. I'd expect to see more of her, she has a plan set in motion to fight Odium and Lift's abilities seem fitting for a long game, thus I'd say there might more than one and even more than two characters C has interfered with.

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I think it's important to separate different uses of the word dream here.

Dream is used as a metaphor for ambitions, not as a synonym.

Dream also describes a cognitive experience while sleeping, which is hypothesised to be a metaphorical interpretation of the waking concerns of an individual along associative rather than rational and logical lines.

I think rather than a spren of dreams, the Nightwatcher is more likely a spren of fate or destiny as cognitive ideas. I doubt the concept of dreams has a large cognitive presence, because like the poop discussed by BS dreams are transitory in nature. Ambition, fate and destiny are more permanent concepts that likely have a greater cognitive presence.

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19 minutes ago, Aleksiel said:

At this point I'm inclined to think Lift is another part of Cultivations plan and just like Dalinar, her boon was given by C herself, so she may not necessarily have a curse like we're used to expect. Lift is a street urchin, who lost her mother young and who knows what sort of horrors she lived through, having nightmares and being afraid of dreaming can be explained naturally. She was able to walk into Dalinra's visions, which I still don't get how it happened, but I don't think the mechanism of dreams and visions is necessarily the same.

I don't think Lift was given her boon by Cultivation because of what she told Dalinar "This is the first time in centuries I have come to speak with one of you". Unless Cultivation gave Lift a boon without showing herself ou speaking with the girl, which goes against what we know of her interaction with Dalinar.

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3 minutes ago, Oberyn said:

I don't think Lift was given her boon by Cultivation because of what she told Dalinar "This is the first time in centuries I have come to speak with one of you". Unless Cultivation gave Lift a boon without showing herself ou speaking with the girl, which goes against what we know of her interaction with Dalinar.

C met Dalinar five and a half years ago and we don't know when Lift went there unless I'm mistaken, so there isn't a timeline issue if Lift went to the Valley after Dalinar.

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9 minutes ago, Aleksiel said:

It was important C did it and not NW, because NW's boons are permanent whereas C set his memory to return when the time was right and Dalinar didn't get a curse in my opinion. C said what she did was beyond what NW could do. I'd expect to see more of her, she has a plan set in motion to fight Odium and Lift's abilities seem fitting for a long game, thus I'd say there might more than one and even more than two characters C has interfered with.

That's a really good point, I had forgotten that Dalinar's boon was not permanent, because it was given by Cultivation.  It would be very interesting if Cultivation instead of the Nightwatcher had also blessed Lift, to see how Lift's curse/boon changes and develops over the course of the story.

And it seems like Lift's abilities are positioned specifically to interfere with Odium (and maybe even Honor, who knows what Cultivation's motivations are) - they are not just random abilities that the Nightwatcher might have given, so it seems logical that Cultivation was involved.  The Nightwatcher is just a force of nature, like all spren - she seems much less sentient and wise than Cultivation, so I don't think she would have the intelligence to give out boons and curses for the purpose of undermining Odium without Cultivation's help.  

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7 minutes ago, Aleksiel said:

C met Dalinar five and a half years ago and we don't know when Lift went there unless I'm mistaken, so there isn't a timeline issue if Lift went to the Valley after Dalinar.

Plus, Cultivation erased from Dalinar's memory that she blessed him specifically.  She might do that to everyone she speaks with, including Lift.  

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3 minutes ago, Llarimar said:

That's a really good point, I had forgotten that Dalinar's boon was not permanent, because it was given by Cultivation.  It would be very interesting if Cultivation instead of the Nightwatcher had also blessed Lift, to see how Lift's curse/boon changes and develops over the course of the story.

And it seems like Lift's abilities are positioned specifically to interfere with Odium (and maybe even Honor, who knows what Cultivation's motivations are) - they are not just random abilities that the Nightwatcher might have given, so it seems logical that Cultivation was involved.  The Nightwatcher is just a force of nature, like all spren - she seems much less sentient and wise than Cultivation, so I don't think she would have the intelligence to give out boons and curses for the purpose of undermining Odium without Cultivation's help.  

I agree. Lift being able to sneak on Odium and enter visions left by H seems premeditate even if she doesn't realize it.

2 minutes ago, Llarimar said:

Plus, Cultivation erased from Dalinar's memory that she blessed him specifically.  She might do that to everyone she speaks with, including Lift.  

Sure, but OP's point here was C claimed Dalinar was the first she spoke to in centuries, so that's why I brought the timeline and not how she erased Dalinar's memory of herself.

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42 minutes ago, aemetha said:

I think rather than a spren of dreams, the Nightwatcher is more likely a spren of fate or destiny as cognitive ideas. 

I agree with this, I think the word "dream" is too ambitious, whereas fate, destiny or ambition are more reasonable concepts for the Nightwatcher to be the spren of.  

However, just her name - Night-Watcher, makes me wonder if she is meant in some way to represent dreams (as in a cognitive experience while sleeping).  Cognitive dreams have not had an important role in the cosmere so far, but that doesn't mean they aren't important or that they don't have some sort of Physical-Cognitive-Spiritual element or relevance to Investiture.  I wouldn't be surprised if Brandon made a cosmere world where dreams were an important part of the magic system somehow.  I am reminded of Warbreaker, where it turns out that the "sixth sense" that people have where they can tell when somebody is watching them is actually related to Breath and the magic system in that book. I could see dreams having relevance in a similar sort of way - something normal that everyone experiences, but that Brandon somehow relates to magic or the Cognitive Realm.  

So if we're separating dreams into ambition dreams (I dream of one day flying!) and cognitive dreams (I dreamed last night about flying), then I think it's more likely the Nightwatcher is the spren of cognitive dreams, and not actually the dream of ambition, fate or destiny.  It is convenient if she is the spren of both types of "dreams" for my proposed theory, but I realize that doesn't make a lot of sense since those two definitions of the word are really only merged from an English-language perspective.  

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Yeah, the main problem with that is that dreams are transitory, and Brandon has said transitory things don't really have the cognitive presence necessary for spren.

I kind of feel like I am abusing my Arcanum privileges by searching for "poop" but here you go:

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/186-general-reddit-2013/#e4135

Quote

Brandon Sanderson

You got it wrong. I'm not busy because I'm writing other books, I'm working on the licensing deals! Cardboard shardplate! Official Bridge Four loincloths! "There's spren in my poop" toilet paper!

Rutthed

Serious question: are there poopspren, and how would they fare in indoor plumbing situations?

Brandon Sanderson

Well, it depends on how you're defining spren. In the books, they don't make a distinction, but there are several varieties. At the basic level, everything has an identity--a soul, you might say, but more than that. This is based on how it is viewed, and how long it has been viewed that way. Feces would have this, but wouldn't have a very strong cognitive identity because of its transitional nature.

Other types of spren, the type that characters see and interact with, are cognitive ideals or concepts which have taken on literal personification over time. These are usually related to forces or emotions, and don't relate to this particular topic.

And that's far more than I ever expected to say on this...

 

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I don't think Lift's curse is related to the Nightmare. But I like the general concept of the Nightwatcher as the Spren of Dreams.

The simply description of Lift and her dislike for dreaming is not too hard to understand for a child Who lived Lift's Life.

Regardless of the Nightmare (spookie enough) or the good Dreams (that curse you when you awake and realize that all' was fake) you could imagine that the Life she could dream of is the Life with his Mother alive.

Returning to the main point, also if the Nightwatcher could be the Spren of the Dreams. Most of the others curses are not related to Nightmares so I can't drawn a connection to them and Old Magic.

There is something that maybe I misunderstood Reading the book. I feel that Dalinar's boon/curse was permanent like the others (Cultivation performed the Old Magic in Place of the Nightwatcher but still under the same rules) and Dalinar recovered his memories only because Odium explicity made him di it.

The Cultivation's line about "they will return One day" is not because the modification had a countdown/timelimit but because She already know that Odium will interfere to restore Dalinar's memories.

PS: Cultivation is not specifically the Shard of vegetation or nature. It's the Shard of change, scientific advanced is of Cultivation in the same way the natural growth is

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17 hours ago, Aleksiel said:

At this point I'm inclined to think Lift is another part of Cultivations plan and just like Dalinar, her boon was given by C herself, so she may not necessarily have a curse like we're used to expect. Lift is a street urchin, who lost her mother young and who knows what sort of horrors she lived through, having nightmares and being afraid of dreaming can be explained naturally. She was able to walk into Dalinra's visions, which I still don't get how it happened, but I don't think the mechanism of dreams and visions is necessarily the same.

I think this is implied in one conversation between Dalinar and Lift. The one when they meet personally and Lift eats Dalinar´s breakfast. Unfortunately I don´t have the quote right now, I´ll try to add it soon. But I think you are right, Cultivation gave Lift her boon., not the NW.

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Doesn't Lift say that she's not supposed to grow older? At one point she remarks something to the effect  that she wasn't supposed to grow older but "she lied", I think, referring to the Nightwatcher or Cultiation. I assumed that was what she asked for. Is it possible that being empowered by food instead of stormlight is her curse?

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15 minutes ago, WardenGiggles said:

Doesn't Lift say that she's not supposed to grow older?

She asked for something like not to change. The Old magic had no idea what to make of that (which makes sense since not changing is the antithesis of being cultivated) so just made stuff up basically. At least that's the impression I get from this WoB. It's probably very tenuously linked to not changing or ageing at best.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/4-calamity-seattle-signing/#e359

Quote

Questioner

So in The Stormlight Archive series--

Brandon Sanderson

The Stormlight Archive? How old are you? *laughter* How old are you?

Questioner

Nine.

Brandon Sanderson

Nine?! You're reading The Stormlight Archive? You are awesome! *cheers*

Questioner

So the character Lift, for her powers, why does she have to eat food instead of sucking in--

Brandon Sanderson

So why does Lift have to eat food instead of sucking in Stormlight. So Lift is a really weird one, she visited the Old Magic and asked something very strange. And the Old Magic didn't know how to treat that and answered with something equally strange. So you will eventually see what happened with Lift and things like that but suffice it to say some really weird things are going on with Lift.

 

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On 12/10/2017 at 6:58 PM, Oberyn said:

I don't think Lift was given her boon by Cultivation because of what she told Dalinar "This is the first time in centuries I have come to speak with one of you". Unless Cultivation gave Lift a boon without showing herself ou speaking with the girl, which goes against what we know of her interaction with Dalinar.

We actually do have a relative timeline that shows that Lift went to the NW after Dalinar did. Dalinar wen't five and a half years ago, Lift in the WoK says that she's "been ten for three years now." That means that Cultivation's words to Dalinar does not rule out Cultivation directly blessing Lift, especially given what the Stormfather says about her.

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The Stormfather rumbled in frustration.  That woman!  This is a creation specifically meant to defy my will!

"Woman?" Dalinar asked, shaking his head.

That child is tainted by the Nightwatcher.

"Technically, so am I."

This is different.  This is unnatural.  She goes too far.

This quote solidified a few things for me.  Lift is tainted by the Nightwatcher, not Cultivation, according to Stormfather.  And if that taint were dreams and nightmares, Stormfather wouldn't react to them as unnatural.  However, if Nightwatcher made Lift not able to absorb Stormlight (which is doled out by Stormfather in his Highstorms) but rather create Investiture directly by metabolozing food, Stormfather's reaction to that makes perfect sense.

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