Fifth of Daybreak Posted December 12, 2017 Report Share Posted December 12, 2017 2 minutes ago, Ookla, the Incalculable said: The "big asterisk" on "Patji is a Shard" is why I don't agree with this. I do not take it to mean the island itself. If the Shard is the island, then yes what you say fits. If this is the case though, why write to begin with? What possible aid can you expect from a land mass? I think it far more likely that "Patji" is both the Avatar/Vessel/Aspect of a Shard, and the namesake for the island itself. That satisfies the WoB that Patji is a Shard of Adonalsium, and this pervious WoB. https://wob.coppermind.net/events/106/#e2930 It could very well be that this has simply changed. But Sixth of the Dusk is the farthest forward in the future of any story we've seen. If Patji is the island itself, then a presence of a Shard will be there indefinitely, as the island remains. If Patji is merely the namesake, then by the time of the story, the Shard may have left, and then both WoBs are satisfied. Patji is a Shard, and there is no shard present for the story we've seen. Gotcha, that makes sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theuntaintedchild Posted December 12, 2017 Report Share Posted December 12, 2017 (edited) I still think the second letter is Autonomy the letter writer asks to be left alone three different times in the same letter. That screams autonomy to me. Also the Invested Beards' explanation made perfect sense to me and added to my already personally justified prediction. Also, Also, Am I the only one who was super stoked to see Harmony writing back to Hoid? Harmony is one of my favorite characters in the Cosmere and a surprise cameo really made my day. Edited December 12, 2017 by theuntaintedchild Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilverTiger Posted December 12, 2017 Report Share Posted December 12, 2017 Just a thought I had while reading this thread (which is a brilliantly written debate, by the way): What if the reason that Odium stuffed Devotion&Dominion in the Cognitive Realm, to prevent the power from gaining intelligence, was because Ambition's splinters had already gained intelligence? If Odium felt threatened by a small(ish, maybe a dozen or so) group of super-powerful Splinters, then he might have taken steps on his next kill to prevent more. A second thought: these Splinters could be the old ones that Silence referred to (I don't remember what she called them, though). Personally, Ambition's splinters being an imperialist-minded collective makes sense. Those who would conquer the world are, by necessity, ambitious. And Odium likely would feel especially threatened by an imperialist Shard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fezzik Posted December 12, 2017 Report Share Posted December 12, 2017 22 minutes ago, SilverTiger said: What if the reason that Odium stuffed Devotion&Dominion in the Cognitive Realm, to prevent the power from gaining intelligence, was because Ambition's splinters had already gained intelligence? Odium took out D&D while looking for Ambition 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesMc6 Posted December 12, 2017 Report Share Posted December 12, 2017 Okay, I'm super new here and just wanted to say how amazing this deep level debate is. Really, bravo to everyone. I think I agree with everyone's arguments, both ways! And I'm a little hesitant to comment only because I am SUPER INTIMADATED by all the amazing research, knowledge, and passion for Brandon's work. But, I'm also tired of just lurking in this forum, so here goes... So, as a newbie, I hope it is okay if l add my newbie--not very deep--opinion which is very top level in deduction. I think the author of the second letter is Autonomy because I know from reading the letters in WoK and WoR that Hoid and Bavadin don't like each other, and the Second Letter is very antagonistic. My interpretation of the Second Letter is Bavadin saying, "Hey Hoid, I know you told Frost you don't like me, so I'm not giving you my help with Rayse. So eff off." (The vulgarity may not be so much implied as projected.) Anyway, thanks for letting me post! 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calderis Posted December 13, 2017 Report Share Posted December 13, 2017 4 hours ago, Brightlord Brooding Eyes said: Anyway, thanks for letting me post! Newcomers are always welcome. We all started out at some point not knowing just how deep this rabbit hole goes. We're passionate, and tenacious, but we don't try to scare people away. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fezzik Posted December 13, 2017 Report Share Posted December 13, 2017 52 minutes ago, Ookla, the Incalculable said: we don't try to scare people away. It happens naturally. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
echaozh Posted December 13, 2017 Report Share Posted December 13, 2017 1. The whole Pantheon on the First of the Sun is made up different personas of Autonomy, and it fits the WOB; 2. The shardpool of Patji is dangerous for worldhoppers because it's Autonomy's shardpool, who doesn't want foreign intervention. Taldain's hard to access as well; 3. The "We" here does not stand for all the personas of Bavadin, just the Pantheon on the First of the Sun. It is a Pantheon, so the "We", not an "I"; 4. The past relationship Bavadin mentioned may very well be the cooperation to shatter the Adonalsium. They may not have got along with each other, they did work together to do something big, presumably to save the world. And now Hoid wanted to ask for help to save the world again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bort Posted December 13, 2017 Report Share Posted December 13, 2017 Could the collective 'We' refer to a single being, made up of smaller pieces, like an aiman? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oversleep Posted December 13, 2017 Author Report Share Posted December 13, 2017 (edited) 4 hours ago, echaozh said: The shardpool of Patji is dangerous for worldhoppers because it's Autonomy's shardpool, who doesn't want foreign intervention. False. It's because the island the perpendicularity is on is a death trap. 4 hours ago, echaozh said: Taldain's hard to access as well Taldain is hard to access because Autonomy wants to isolate. I can't see this as a valid argument - you could very well argue that Selish perpendicularities are almost lethaly dangerous to access, so it has similarities to the one on the First of the Sun. Or that Threnody is harder to access due to unpredictable, unstable perpendicularities. 1 hour ago, Bort said: Could the collective 'We' refer to a single being, made up of smaller pieces, like an aiman? Doubt it - Aimians after all refer to themselvesas "I", since they're a single consciousness in many bodies; a collective mind is something else, it refers to the group of beings who are are linked. Edited December 13, 2017 by Ookla the Indefatigable Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
echaozh Posted December 14, 2017 Report Share Posted December 14, 2017 12 hours ago, Ookla the Indefatigable said: False. It's because the island the perpendicularity is on is a death trap. Taldain is hard to access because Autonomy wants to isolate. I can't see this as a valid argument - you could very well argue that Selish perpendicularities are almost lethaly dangerous to access, so it has similarities to the one on the First of the Sun. Or that Threnody is harder to access due to unpredictable, unstable perpendicularities. The Sel and Threnody cases are not caused by the owners of the perpendicularities. They're hard to access because the owners of the perpendicularities are splintered. The FotS and Taldain cases are in a different group: they're hard to access because the owners of the perpendicualrities there don't want people to access the worlds. We know there're death traps on the island the Patji lake is on. We don't know why Taldain is hard to access, perhaps there are also death traps near the perpendicularity. We definitely know Bavadin didn't splinter herself to make the perpendicularity unstable. Patji set up a trap near his perpendicularity and call it a test. It's not hard to see the similarity to the isolation policy of Bavabin. Speaking of tests, the Sand Masters were tested before they can level up. Few other cultures we know in the Cosmere have such dangerous tests. It looks like Autonomy love testing people to see if they can live on their own under extreme conditions, and it fits its Intent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oversleep Posted December 14, 2017 Author Report Share Posted December 14, 2017 @echaozh except that all islands of Pantheon are dangerous; since perpendicularity is on one of them, it's dangerous to go through it. And really, even if it was designed specifically that way, the wording implies hiding from other worlds - one way is to make the place hard to access. I don't see how that implies Autonomy. 1 hour ago, echaozh said: Speaking of tests, the Sand Masters were tested before they can level up. No, they were tested before joining the Diem; the ranks were assigned based on their power and ability. 1 hour ago, echaozh said: Few other cultures we know in the Cosmere have such dangerous tests. It looks like Autonomy love testing people to see if they can live on their own under extreme conditions, and it fits its Intent. What dangerous tests? And please remember that you are confusing what people do with the Shard that resides there - clearly, Mistborn must be of Ruin, since they are such great warriors. By the way, I don't see how testing fits Autonomy - if anything, it fits Ambition. Autonomy would not care for whether they can or not, it'd just let them do it all on their own. Ambition would be the one to test your drive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
echaozh Posted December 14, 2017 Report Share Posted December 14, 2017 Whatever. At least the Pantheon as the We makes more sense. It doesn't need to be all personas, and Pantheon is obviously more than 1. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oversleep Posted December 17, 2017 Author Report Share Posted December 17, 2017 Turns out my reasoning is right - only my preference of Ambition was wrong Autonomy is confirmed as the writer of the Second Letter, folks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy92 Posted December 17, 2017 Report Share Posted December 17, 2017 16 minutes ago, Ookla the Indefatigable said: Autonomy is confirmed as the writer of the Second Letter, folks! Source? I'm not too surprised personally. Was leaning that way... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RShara Posted December 17, 2017 Report Share Posted December 17, 2017 32 minutes ago, Andy92 said: Source? I'm not too surprised personally. Was leaning that way... The Sugarhouse Signing that took place yesterday. The info will be up on Arcanum soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy92 Posted December 17, 2017 Report Share Posted December 17, 2017 23 minutes ago, RShara said: The Sugarhouse Signing that took place yesterday. The info will be up on Arcanum soon. Thanks. Figured it was a signing that hadn't been transcribed yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert D Posted December 21, 2017 Report Share Posted December 21, 2017 (edited) On 12/17/2017 at 2:42 PM, Ookla the Indefatigable said: Turns out my reasoning is right - only my preference of Ambition was wrong Autonomy is confirmed as the writer of the Second Letter, folks! 1) Does this mean that Autonomy is the only Shard on two of the Major Shardworlds? Taldain is isolated and confirmed in Arcanum Unbounded that Autonomy is the only Shard there. This makes me feel that Autonomy doesn't share well with others, and is unlikely to permit a second Shard in a world he or she has claimed. 2) Does this mean a Shard can invest in multiple worlds, but have a prime residence with the core or bulk of their presence and power resides? 3) Or am I off base and are there multiple Shards on Obrodai? Edited December 21, 2017 by Robert D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy92 Posted December 24, 2017 Report Share Posted December 24, 2017 Just to add some to this, we do have confirmation now that Patji and Autonomony are related. https://wob.coppermind.net/events/312-orem-signing/#e8902 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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