[OB] The Letter Theory

[Oversleep]

1 minute ago, Ookla the Obtuse said:

I had forgotten in the ensuing conversation. That's my fault entirely I apologize.

No need.

50 minutes ago, Ookla the Obtuse said:

Given that the Stormfather was an intentional Splinter of Honor before it became his cognitive Shadow, and that was Bonding with an existing being that already existed before hand in the Stormfather, and he's still pretty lacking in the memories department, I find the idea of Uli Da surviving in some way very tenuous.

I think that if many of the Unmade can be sentient and sapient, or Nightwatcher, or Stormfather (all these without a bond), then theoretically so can Ambition Splinters.

[Andy92]

One of the reasons I still think Autonomy is plausible is because we know from the Letter in tWoK that Hoid and Bavadin don't have the most pleasant history. So instead of writing to Bavadin herself, Hoid decided to write to one of her autonomous Splinters. He knows he needs all the help he can get, but he assumed going to Bavadin herself wasn't his best option, like @Ookla the Rusty said.

We know from the AU essay on Taldain that Autonomy is a Shard that practices isolation when it comes to Taldain, but in contrast to this, the Shard does interfere with other planets. So how could a Shard have an extremely isolationist policy when it comes to one world while at the same time having a very interfering policy when it comes to other planets? Maybe Autonomy just wants to keep its home world defended/unbothered while it interferes with other worlds, but maybe Autonomy operates on multiple fronts. 

In order to kill a hive-mind, you have to take out the heart/brain of the system. I think it's plausible to believe that central piece of Autonomy is the part that exists at Taldain, and that's why the Shard wants to keep that planet isolated from others. 

I really like the theory that the Shard that wrote this Letter acts like a hive-mind. The way the Letter is written almost spells that fact out. But I personally don't think what we know about Autonomy discredits the possibility of this Letter's author being a sentient Splinter of Autonomy. Just because this particular Splinter doesn't care about interfering with another world doesn't mean the entire Shard does. 

I also don't think Autonomy's intent prevents the Splinters from acting as a collective body. I can create an Autonomous robot, but as that robot's creator, I can still oversee what it does/make it submit to my authority. 

With all of this being said...I think the Ambition theory is also very plausible. I just don't think we currently have enough information to prove or disprove this one way or the other.  

[Calderis]

One thing that I wanted to add, that hasn't been brought up, but we're all aware of. 

I believe it was @ccstat who brought it up in discord (and I don't mean to imply that he subscribes to the Ambition theory, because to my knowledge he doesn't back either one) that it is well known that Wit and Bavadin have a grudge.

Why would the Hoid reach out to a Shard based on familiarity, when we all know according to the first letters between Hoid and Frost, that Hoid's relationship with Bavadin is anything but cordial? The very familiarity the second letter references, as if expecting a friendly interaction, is in opposition with the relationship we know the two share. 

Edited December 11, 2017 by Ookla, the Incalculable

[Fifth of Daybreak]

8 hours ago, Ookla, the Incalculable said:

Why would the Hoid reach out to a Shard based on familiarity, when we all know according to the first letters between Hoid and Frost, that Hoid's relationship with Bavadin is anything but cordial? The very familiarity the second letter references, as if expecting a friendly interaction, is in opposition with the relationship we know the two share. 

This is something I addressed earlier. The letter's tone mimics the same incredulity you're showing here. 'You must know better...' 'Did you expect anything else...' specifically calling his request a 'plea,' the implication the Hoid doesn't have their respect. There's nothing in 'presumption of past relationship' that implies a positive relationship, and everything in the letter implies a negative one. For all we know, the communication could start out "I know you hate me, and I won't pretend I don't hate you either, but there are larger problems in the Cosmere and the enemy of my enemy is my, well, not friend, but powerful shardy chap who can help me stop the destruction Odium has caused. I haven't even properly insulted you in the letter so you know I'm serious." You can presume upon a past relationship without it being cordial or friendly. 

He could also presume upon a relationship from before the grudge. "Remember all the good times we used to have before we started to hate each other?"

This is far easier to explain for me than presuming upon a past relationship for someone who didn't exist when said relationship should have happened.

Edited December 11, 2017 by Ookla the Obtuse

[Calderis]

28 minutes ago, Ookla the Obtuse said:

This is something I addressed earlier.

And I just don't buy it. Hoid's words in the first letter show he wants to take out Bavadin as much as Rayse. He's not going to reach out to her, because he thinks she's as bad as Odium. 

They are the two people on Hoid's hit list. 

Quote

You have accused me of arrogance in my quest. You have accused me of perpetuating my grudge against Rayse and Bavadin. Both accusations are true. Neither point makes the things I have written to you untrue.

I am not presenting Ambition as a sure thing here, and Oversleep obviously isn't either.

The assurance with which people say that the letter is Autonomy bothers me though. Much of what is said about Bavadin as having fit the letters in this thread are assumptions propagating themselves as fact through repetition. We've never met Bavadin. We've never seen anything about her means or methods to try and align with the information presented. These things are being assumed as fact, from an interpretation of a single WoB that could be interpreted differently as this thread shows. 

I'm not absolutely convinced that this is Ambition. But I'm less convinced of Autonomy. And the confidence with which everyone else says Autonomy bothers me, because I don't see a solid foundation for the claims, any more than this theory presents in counterpoint. 

Edited December 11, 2017 by Ookla, the Incalculable

[Fifth of Daybreak]

20 minutes ago, Ookla, the Incalculable said:

The assurance with which people say that the letter is Autonomy bothers me though. Much of what is said about Bavadin as having fit the letters in this thread are assumptions propagating themselves as fact through repetition. We've never met Bavadin. We've never seen anything about her means or methods to try and align with the information presented. These things are being assumed as fact, from an interpretation of a single WoB that could be interpreted differently as this thread shows. 

I'm sorry this bothers you. That seems to be a running theme for the thread, distaste for that theory, which is fine and there's nothing wrong that intrinsically.

At the same time, it feels as though I'm taking the brunt of that displeasure for defending the dissenting opinion.

@Ookla the Indefatigable, you've done a great job putting together the theory and I want to stress that my arguments aren't a proclamation of faulty logic, just that I'm unconvinced by the arguments. 

I hope you guys have a wonderful day. 

[Calderis]

6 minutes ago, Ookla the Obtuse said:

At the same time, it feels as though I'm taking the brunt of that displeasure for defending the dissenting opinion.

... I wasn't aware any of it was directed at you personally. That wasn't the intention. 

[Fifth of Daybreak]

4 minutes ago, Ookla, the Incalculable said:

... I wasn't aware any of it was directed at you personally. That wasn't the intention. 

I appreciate that. To clarify, I don't hold you, or anyone in the thread, responsible for my own feelings in regards to the conversation. I just wanted to verbalize the general tone I had felt. I don't want my statement to be interpreted as accusatory, only as observational.

Edited December 11, 2017 by Ookla the Obtuse

[Toaster Retribution]

Maybe relevant, maybe not, but I'm going at it anyway: Bavadin and Hoid are enemies now, but I think they were friends once. We know Rayse and Hoid were BFFs, and Bavadin seems to have a relationship with both of them. I think the three were friends once, but something made them split up, with Rayse (and presumably Bavadin) in one camp, and Hoid in another. 

The fact that Hoid hates Bavadin so much is another point against Autonomy as the author as well. Why contact her for help? I realize that he might be desperate, just as Dalinar was when he asked Sadeas to join him for an attack at the Parshendi in WoK, but I do find Hoid contacting Bavadin a bit strange, in that regard.

[Stark]

19 hours ago, Toaster Retribution said:

We know Rayse and Hoid were BFFs

Ummm, what?  What makes you say this?  Everything seems to indicate that they did not like each other even before the shattering.  I think you are confusing Hoid's remarks about Ati pre-shattering as opposed to Rayse.  Unless you are being sarcastic....

Edited December 12, 2017 by Stark
I was super wrong

[Toaster Retribution]

6 minutes ago, Stark said:

Ummm, what?  What makes you say this?  Everything seems to indicate that they did not like each other even before the shattering.  I think you are confusing Hoid's remarks about Ati pre-shattering as opposed to Rayse.  Unless you are being sarcastic....

We have a WoB

Quote

Alaxel (Paraphrased)

He asked for "Something juicy about Odium that no one knows about yet."

Brandon Sanderson

Odium and Hoid were once friends.

 

[Landis963]

Quote

Alaxel (Paraphrased)

He asked for "Something juicy about Odium that no one knows about yet."

Brandon Sanderson

Odium and Hoid were once friends.

We have a WoB.  (OMG Arcanum is so much better for this!) EDIT: Sneaky ninjas!

Edited December 11, 2017 by Landis963

[Stark]

26 minutes ago, Toaster Retribution said:

We have a WoB

Wow, I'd never seen this before.  I don't know if this makes me like Rayse more, or Hoid less.

[Landis963]

2 hours ago, Stark said:

Wow, I'd never seen this before.  I don't know if this makes me like Rayse more, or Hoid less.

Well, I can think of at least 4 reasons why Hoid and Rayse might have had a falling-out.  

[Toaster Retribution]

28 minutes ago, Landis963 said:

Well, I can think of at least 4 reasons why Hoid and Rayse might have had a falling-out.  

Ooooh, lemmeguess:

1. Rayse stole Hoids instant noodles and ate all of them.

2. Rayse - Hoid - Bavadin love triangle, and Bavadin chose Rayse.

3. Hoid told Adonalsium that Rayse didn't pay his taxes, which led to Rayse losing his home.

4. Hoid wanted the Shard of Odium, but Rayse got it first. Hoid is now sulking. 

[Jingpoo]

We know that Hoid was around pre-shattering of Adonalsium.  Couldn't this mean that Hoid was friends with whoever or whatever Adonalsium was since Odium was a part of it before the shattering?  Brandon likes to play with words to give us honest (yet sometimes deceiving) answers.  Hoid doesn't like Rayse, but that doesn't mean he wasn't friends with Adonalsium.

*scurries back into Lurker-Zone where the cookies crumbs are almost as tasty as real ones.*

[The Invested Beard]

I think this all comes down to being able to wrap your head around the Intent of Autonomy as a shard. I find the multiple personas quite fitting for one specific reason. You aren't autonomous as an individual. Autonomy can only exist if there are others to be autonomous from. This is taken to the extreme in the case of Autonomy in that it is so autonomous it has become autonomous from itself. Hence why Hoid's plea may have borne fruit if it had reached a different piece of Autonomy. They are all autonomous and have their own opinions and make their own decisions. It seems counter-intuitive, but it really isn't when you think about it.

[Calderis]

3 hours ago, The Invested Beard said:

I think this all comes down to being able to wrap your head around the Intent of Autonomy as a shard. I find the multiple personas quite fitting for one specific reason. You aren't autonomous as an individual. Autonomy can only exist if there are others to be autonomous from. This is taken to the extreme in the case of Autonomy in that it is so autonomous it has become autonomous from itself. Hence why Hoid's plea may have borne fruit if it had reached a different piece of Autonomy. They are all autonomous and have their own opinions and make their own decisions. It seems counter-intuitive, but it really isn't when you think about it.

Why then, does the letter speak in the voice of a collective? Even if what you think about Autonomy is true, this doesn't speak as an individual autonomous to the others. It speaks as if it is a single piece, subject to the will of the collective. 

We. Us. Our. This is not an autonomous mind. 

[StrikerEZ]

2 hours ago, Ookla, the Incalculable said:

Why then, does the letter speak in the voice of a collective? Even if what you think about Autonomy is true, this doesn't speak as an individual autonomous to the others. It speaks as if it is a single piece, subject to the will of the collective. 

We. Us. Our. This is not an autonomous mind. 

What if this aspect is just using the Royal We? 

Anyway, I'm not gonna hop in this argument because I agree with everything that has been said for both sides. I still like the idea that Autonomy is the author, but I'm kinda convinced that Ambition is the more likely the true author.

[The Invested Beard]

2 hours ago, Ookla, the Incalculable said:

Why then, does the letter speak in the voice of a collective? Even if what you think about Autonomy is true, this doesn't speak as an individual autonomous to the others. It speaks as if it is a single piece, subject to the will of the collective. 

We. Us. Our. This is not an autonomous mind. 

It's pretty obvious the individual members aren't subject to the will of the collective. Otherwise the one who answered wouldn't have said Hoid's letter may have been better received by another member.

[Calderis]

3 hours ago, The Invested Beard said:

It's pretty obvious the individual members aren't subject to the will of the collective. Otherwise the one who answered wouldn't have said Hoid's letter may have been better received by another member.

I understand your reasoning, but I still disagree. The temperament of the individual aspects may vary, but it still shows that each is beholden to the greater whole. 

Quote

We, instead, will take your communication to us

Why bother with reporting to the collective at all if it makes its own decisions? 

Additionally. 

Quote

You have spoken to one who cannot respond.

Why would one aspect be censured at all if they were truly autonomous? 

I don't mean to come across as overly assured, and I don't expect anyone to be able to answer all my questions, because I'll just come up with more. I want to know. 

Edited December 12, 2017 by Ookla, the Incalculable

[Fezzik]

1 hour ago, Ookla, the Incalculable said:

The temp aren't of

Temperament?

[Calderis]

24 minutes ago, Ookla the oathgate said:

Temperament?

Yeah... That... 

[Fifth of Daybreak]

9 hours ago, Ookla, the Incalculable said:

Why would one aspect be censured at all if they were truly autonomous? 

I don't think an issue of censuring, I think it's an issue of lack of ability to communicate. If I'm understanding the WoB and the letter correctly, Patji itself is the aspect that Hoid communicated with when making his plea. 

Quote

though we know not how you located us upon this world. We are indeed intrigued, for we thought it well hidden. Insignificant among our many realms. As the waves of the sea must continue to surge, so must our will continue resolute. 

This seems to describe the insignificance of First of the Sun, and the "waves of the sea" metaphor is the perfect flavor for an island to use. 

Patji is constantly personified as the father in Sixth of the Dusk, and yet, while imagined as male, it seems like he's never imagined to have a human form. I think this had an effect on the Avatar forming there. It has a consciousness and a will, but not an ability to speak.

Quote

He frowned and turned back toward the island. Jutting from the ocean, arrogant. Destructive.

Patji. Father.

So, having been brought a communication it doesn't have the ability to respond to, Patji does what it can with the resources it has.

Quote

You have spoken to one who cannot respond. We, instead, will take your communication to us

Viewing it through this lens, I'm not even that worried about the idea of a hive mind or the weird pronoun usage. Bavadin is talking on behalf of Patji. 'We,'  and 'our' by this interpretation can be understood as "Patji and I," as Patji is the mask through which Hoid chose to communicate. He could have had better luck approaching someone who could communicate on their own and who wasn't of the same temperament as Patji, which 'perhaps...would have found favorable audience.' As it stands, he asked the island that likes to hill its children and stand alone in the sea proud of its domain. Bavadin then at the end speaks over Patji to make threats at Hoid. 

 

This is how I see it. It's not a matter of censure, it's a matter of literal restriction.

[Calderis]

18 minutes ago, Ookla the Obtuse said:

This is how I see it. It's not a matter of censure, it's a matter of literal restriction.

The "big asterisk" on "Patji is a Shard" is why I don't agree with this. 

I do not take it to mean the island itself. If the Shard is the island, then yes what you say fits. If this is the case though, why write to begin with? What possible aid can you expect from a land mass? 

I think it far more likely that "Patji" is both the Avatar/Vessel/Aspect of a Shard, and the namesake for the island itself. That satisfies the WoB that Patji is a Shard of Adonalsium, and this pervious WoB. 

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/106/#e2930

Quote

Questioner

Does First of the Sun have a Shard or a Splinter?

Brandon Sanderson

First of the Sun does not have a Shard. First of the Sun is one of these planets that was created, in the cosmere I’m considering a low magic planet, not under the direct influence of any Shard.

It could very well be that this has simply changed. But Sixth of the Dusk is the farthest forward in the future of any story we've seen. If Patji is the island itself, then a presence of a Shard will be there indefinitely, as the island remains. 

If Patji is merely the namesake, then by the time of the story, the Shard may have left, and then both WoBs are satisfied. Patji is a Shard, and there is no shard present for the story we've seen.