[OB] Why Are The Death Rattles Bad?

[teknopathetic]

“Moelach is close. I can hear his wheezing, his scratching, his scraping at time like a rat breaking through walls. ”

— Jezrien on Moelach^[18]

Moelach is an Unmade closely associated with precognition and visions of the future. His presence is what allows for the Death Rattles that King Taravangian has used to correct the Diagram. Moelach's appearance is unknown, but has recently settled in the Horneater Peaks for reasons unknown.

 

Do we have any hints as to what harm the Death Rattles cause the people of Roshar? Surely if the Radiants were so afraid of future sight, Moelach would have a power greater than consuming investiture when people die? 

Edited December 9, 2017 by teknopathetic

[+ElephantEarwax]

I do not believe that it is harming them, you know aside from dying. Instead that it is the connection to the enemy that is bad, and foresight being related to Voidbinding.

[teknopathetic]

1 minute ago, Ookla the Elephant said:

I do not believe that it is harming them, you know aside from dying. Instead that it is the connection to the enemy that is bad, and foresight being related to Voidbinding.

Sure, but there still is no harm being done here, which is strange, right?

[+ElephantEarwax]

There is nothing on him hurting people here, and this is updated and accurate as of now.

https://coppermind.net/wiki/Moelach

[Kered]

Like Elephant said, I think it's just the whole concept of Moelach and his powers of foresight. I don't think the rattles are damaging in the physical sense, but I think the rattles heard are ultimately chosen by Odium or one of his generals. Which means the rattles are an attempt to either a.) Manipulate various events and people or b.) Just to cause plain ole chaos as people try to decipher the meaning behind the rattles. At the least it's a distraction, at the worst Odium is manipulating events to fit his agenda. 

[RShara]

Also, it requires someone to die...

[aemetha]

I don't know what the ramifications of Moelach's influence are, but I think we should consider that future sight is considered bad in Alethi society not because Odium is good at it, but because Honor is bad at it.

Future sight is related to the intent of the shard, which we know from WoB's. My personal belief is that it is related to the temporal directionality of the shard.

• Honor looks back towards sworn oaths and established codes. He doesn't look forward so he can't see the future well.
• Cultivation looks forwards, growing a subject towards an ideal end point. She is good at future sight according to Honor.
• Odium looks forwards towards a malevolent end. He inflames passions and/or hatred toward his desired goal. He is good at future sight.
• Preservation looks forwards seeking to indefinitely maintain the status quo. He is good at future sight.
• Ruin looks at the present, seeking an end to all. He is bad at future sight.

So seeing the future isn't of Odium at all, it's simply not of Honor. Moelach by many theories might be one of the mindless spren, and the visions he grants for the death rattles nothing more than a harbinger of the desolation, spreading fear through truth. 

[Ymawgat]

It's possible that the be all end all purpose of the death rattles is to efficiently interrupt or scramble the future sight of others (such as truthwatchers on a battlefield), by using very low energy prophecies.

Consider how the diagram is meant to be in part prophetic, and Renarin (someone with some form of future vision) acts as a gigantic hole in it.

Consider in mistborn how

Spoiler

Atium can be scrambled and "blocked" by your opponent if they are also burning Atium or Electrum, causing the shadow of them to split into many possibilities, as you each struggle to control the future and your magic struggles to anticipate your opponent.

 

[+hwiles]

I mean...everyone who listens to and collects deathrattles appears to have sided with Odium. I think Moleach is basically a recruitment tool. The deathrattles alerted people that something weird was going on, they looked into it, and a significant number of them ultimately chose to side with an evil God who didn't even arrive until years later. Moleach was basically touring Roshar shouting, "Vote Odium! He can see the future!" Which is a pretty compelling argument, even in a society that holds prophecy as a taboo.

[digitalbusker]

If there's something hinky about the afterlife on Roshar it may be that the rattles are part of it.

It may also be that they're not intrinsically harmful except when someone uses them as a tool to manipulate. Sort of how Midnight Essence copies of people aren't inherently harmful until somebody gives them the kill order.

Edited December 9, 2017 by Ookla the Busker
Spelling

[KOOZ]

2 hours ago, hwiles said:

I mean...everyone who listens to and collects deathrattles appears to have sided with Odium. I think Moleach is basically a recruitment tool. The deathrattles alerted people that something weird was going on, they looked into it, and a significant number of them ultimately chose to side with an evil God who didn't even arrive until years later. Moleach was basically touring Roshar shouting, "Vote Odium! He can see the future!" Which is a pretty compelling argument, even in a society that holds prophecy as a taboo.

Interesting; so you're suggesting that Moelach, at the end of the day, is a propaganda tool? And maybe an agent provocateur in so far as weeding out those in the know (such as Mr T and co) as they have morales flexible enough take advantage of it (thus indicating that they are happy to accept a course of action condemned by Vornism) , and thus become focus for Odium's recruitment agents (such as Ulim and co)? 

I've also wondered where the malice in what Moelach does lies - my line of reasoning was close to what's been expressed so far re misdirection - forcing people to expend resources in analyzing limited, and likely vetted, glimpses of the future. I have not considered the factor of future sight interference - this idea certainly has merit! It could also explain some of the hidden malicious intent, because, so far, although the messages may be mildly unsettling (the Unmade watch people die, etc), some of the messages seem quite benign or indicate events of great import, but for Radiant's (e.g. I've seen one interpretation of the Death Rattle where Kaladin and Shallan return from the chasms, for instance) - thus it is not clear how that could be bad for people not on Odium's side (at the time of collection, Mr T was still trying to save humanity). 

Of course, there is also the obvious evil of killing people for the sake of collecting said Rattles (a la Mr T); and yet, and yet... I see rather limited benefits to Moelach for the time being. Of course, I agree that not all of the Unmade are likely be focused on purely military aspects of the campaign (Re-Shephir, Yelig-nar, Sja-anat, to an extent, come to mind), Ashertmarn being a prime example of indirect influence (being more of a major distraction), I still feel that we're missing some important aspect of what Moelach can do, imho.

 

[Walin]

I think, like the Thrill and Sja-anat, and even Re-Sephir, not all Unmade are bad. Since Odium has his influence back, this may change. It’s just that when left alone, they act how they want, which may be bad or not. 

[Necessary Eagle]

Kaza's interlude had the Amian say something about secrets taken from dying people that could endanger the world. I think that's evidence in the direction of the theory that the Death Rattles are a side-effect of Moelach gathering information for Odium.

[Zea mays]

It’s a bit well, rude, to hijack a person’s dying words (to their loved ones, comrades in arms, or whoever happens to be near) to broadcast some cryptic oracular mumbo-jumbo.

[Heretic]

8 hours ago, aemetha said:

 

• Preservation looks forwards seeking to indefinitely maintain the status quo. He is good at future sight. 

I’ll be honest I never really thought about Preservation being able to see forward. Although it’s not exactly related to SA, what are the odds that an alloy of Lerasium could grant an Allomancer sight into the future to a greater extent than atium can?

[kaellok]

9 hours ago, Kered said:

Like Elephant said, I think it's just the whole concept of Moelach and his powers of foresight. I don't think the rattles are damaging in the physical sense, but I think the rattles heard are ultimately chosen by Odium or one of his generals. Which means the rattles are an attempt to either a.) Manipulate various events and people or b.) Just to cause plain ole chaos as people try to decipher the meaning behind the rattles. At the least it's a distraction, at the worst Odium is manipulating events to fit his agenda. 

I've always thought that the rattles are necessarily chosen by Odium and co, so much as concurrently heard by them.  

Slight Warbreaker spoiler

 

Given the ever-increasing links between Roshar and Nalthis, has anyone looked at the death rattles in comparison to the visions of the Returned?  They could be some bastardized form of Returning, where the other person gets the Vision, but not the, uh, Return. 

(And a side-question: what would happen if Nale used his healing fabrial on someone as they were having a death rattle?)

Edited December 10, 2017 by kaellok

[Kered]

5 hours ago, kaellok said:

I've always thought that the rattles are necessarily chosen by Odium and co, so much as concurrently heard by them.  

Slight Warbreaker spoiler

  Reveal hidden contents

Given the ever-increasing links between Roshar and Nalthis, has anyone looked at the death rattles in comparison to the visions of the Returned?  They could be some bastardized form of Returning, where the other person gets the Vision, but not the, uh, Return. 

(And a side-question: what would happen if Nale used his healing fabrial on someone as they were having a death rattle?)

I think it would still depend on how close to death the person is and if death rattles take place after or before the "beyond saving" point Nale mentions to Szeth

[Yata]

I believe that Death Rattles could be called "bad" because probably the Unmade exploit them to gain Informations. Informations usable by Odium

[Dearius]

We know that the visions Renarin sees can be wrong and I feel it is safe to assume that they originate from Odium.  Furthermore, Odium seemed extremely very confident that he would win, probably because of future sight.  Shards can look ahead and predict the future, but there is a level of uncertainty in what will actually happen and most shards have to bank on what gives them the best probability.  I personally believe that the death rattled are predicting Odium’s ideal Future and that anyone who believes they are all true will act in a way that conforms to Odium’s untimate goals.  Many of the death rattled are true, but things can always change.  The danger comes from the belief that they are infallible and people living with the assumption that they cannot b changed.

 

I have a theory that one of the main purposes of the unmade is to keep people from attracting spren and becoming radiant.  Not all of the unmade do this, but I see it most evident through the thrill.  The death rattles may have the effect of creating a sense of hopelessness in people who pay them heed.  In part five, Renarin is show to be resigned to both his and his father’s fates.  He is hopeless and helpless, but Jasnah is able to save him.  Every person who becomes hopeless is one less person Odium has to contend with.

Edited December 10, 2017 by Dearius