[OB] Fifth Ideal?

[KhanBoltNo4503]

Just wanted to make sure I didn't miss anything.

Do we currently know what the benefits/rewards of the fifth ideal is?

All I remember is Nale showing a shardblade (but that's part of the third ideal) after saying he joined his own order, explaining the fourth ideal (its benefits and words), and saying that you must 'become the law' to achieve the fifth ideal (with this obviously changing to things such as becoming protection for windrunners)

Wanted to be sure he never mentioned any benefits of speaking the fifth ideal is.

[gawwyt]

Is Nale ever shown to use (or even carry) spheres to power his lashings?

[Calyx]

1 hour ago, gawwyt said:

Is Nale ever shown to use (or even carry) spheres to power his lashings?

Not that I can recall, in either Edgedancer or Oathbringer.

[gawwyt]

2 hours ago, Calyx said:

Not that I can recall, in either Edgedancer or Oathbringer.

In that case I would hazard that in "becoming" Law or Unity or Protection as the 5th ideal the surge-binder becomes so heavily invested that they provide their own storm-light for their lashings. Thus no longer needing to carry spheres or wait on high-storms. 

I assume that we never explicitly see a radiant with a pouch of spheres or actually run out of storm-light in a vision either.

[+Hoiditthroughthegrapevine]

16 hours ago, gawwyt said:

In that case I would hazard that in "becoming" Law or Unity or Protection as the 5th ideal the surge-binder becomes so heavily invested that they provide their own storm-light for their lashings. Thus no longer needing to carry spheres or wait on high-storms. 

I assume that we never explicitly see a radiant with a pouch of spheres or actually run out of storm-light in a vision either.

Whoaaaaa! That is an amazing idea!!!

I have made many attempts at speculating what the real cause of the Recreance is, but holy crap, what if this is it? What if by swearing the 5th ideal each KR is splitting off a chunk of Honor, and really all KRs using the Nahel bond are miniauture splinters of Honor, what if they all realized that the reason Honor was starting to go slightly off his rocker was because they were the ones who were actually splintering him! What if this was Odium's long con all along—Create an apparently massive threat, wait for Honor to do the Honorable thing (create splinters of himself to make the honorblades), continue repetitive cycle of immanent destruction, wait for Honor to create more splinters of himself, repeat cycle of immanent destruction, wait for Honor to start to dis-corporate (like Preservation) due to increased creation of splinters and loss of investiture then turn the moral screws of robbing the Parsh of their connection and Identity while also revealing that the KRs are destroying Honor by there simple existence. This is the con part of the long con, because Honor could have continued to be splintered (the sum total of Investiture is very great) but Odium got the KRs to abandon their oaths, which because they were so heavily invested in Honor, splintered him for real. Then you have the post recreance slow dissipation of Honor.

Edited December 8, 2017 by hoiditthroughthegrapevine

[Ryder]

One thing that's mentioned by Notum is that the Honorspren might be able to break Kaladin's bond with Syl without killing him until he's sworn the fifth ideal.

Quote

Notum shook his head, then looked away, off into the distance. “I cannot answer. You should not have bonded Sylphrena, either way. She is too precious to the Stormfather.”

“Regardless,” Kaladin said, “you’re about half a year too late. So you might as well accept it.”

“Not too late. Killing you would free her—though it would be painful for her. There are other ways, at least until the Final Ideal is sworn.”

This doesn't say what any other effects of the fifth ideal might be, but it does indicate that it results in the bond between them being so strong that nothing can break it other than death or the KR rejecting their oaths entirely.

As far as being invested enough to provide their own stormlight, I feel like this would be too OP.  I can't find it at the moment, but I remember somewhere in OB that Kaladin notices he doesn't need as much stormlight as he used to.  I think the radiants will naturally become more efficient as they practice and progress through the oaths, but it would be too strong if they weren't limited by stormlight.  Plus, that's part of what made the Heralds so powerful: they were powered directly by Honor through the honorblades so they presumable had near unlimited power for surgebinding while Honor lived.  I think it makes a better story if that kind of power is limited to the Heralds or while in the middle of a highstorm.

[StormingTexan]

 

7 hours ago, Ryder said:

 I can't find it at the moment, but I remember somewhere in OB that Kaladin notices he doesn't need as much stormlight as he used to.  I think the radiants will naturally become more efficient as they practice and progress through the oaths, but it would be too strong if they weren't limited by stormlight.  Plus, that's part of what made the Heralds so powerful: they were powered directly by Honor through the honorblades so they presumable had near unlimited power for surgebinding while Honor lived.  I think it makes a better story if that kind of power is limited to the Heralds or while in the middle of a highstorm.

Same with Shallan she seems to learn how to make stormlight last longer as well learning the deal with tying an illusion to a sphere. 

11 hours ago, gawwyt said:

In that case I would hazard that in "becoming" Law or Unity or Protection as the 5th ideal the surge-binder becomes so heavily invested that they provide their own storm-light for their lashings. Thus no longer needing to carry spheres or wait on high-storms. 

I assume that we never explicitly see a radiant with a pouch of spheres or actually run out of storm-light in a vision either.

That is a cool idea. In someways it parallels with the fact we do not seem to know how fussed get their voidlight. 

[Ralph Elorim]

15 hours ago, gawwyt said:

Is Nale ever shown to use (or even carry) spheres to power his lashings?

Is Nale's spren ever shown?

[Tazren]

8 hours ago, Ryder said:

  I think it makes a better story if that kind of power is limited to the Heralds or while in the middle of a highstorm.

Brandon Sanderson also makes a big deal about believing that magic systems are defined by their limits, or something along those lines. Stormlight is clearly the major limitation of Surgebinding, so it would be strange if the Fifth Ideal suddenly removed it altogether. 

[Dlyol]

15 minutes ago, Tazren said:

Brandon Sanderson also makes a big deal about believing that magic systems are defined by their limits, or something along those lines. Stormlight is clearly the major limitation of Surgebinding, so it would be strange if the Fifth Ideal suddenly removed it altogether. 

I don't disagree with this but I think it's worth noting that being at fifth ideal probably imposes significant limits on what you can do from a moral standpoint. Brandon points out that as well as Kryptonite the most significant limitation on Superman, that which makes him interesting, is his strong sense of personal morality. That the only Fifth ideal Radiant we've seen is an insane Herald means we don't have great evidence on this but it seems fairly likely that becoming the essence of a concept; Law for the Skybreakers, one might hypothesise Leadership for the Windrunners or Love/Charity (one is tempted to say agape) for the Edgedancers places fairly rigid restrictions on what you can do.

(Also I know that the 1st ideal is a formality and that ideals are about the individual and his/her spren's interpretation but they clearly do impose some limits)

Edited December 8, 2017 by Dlyol

[Tazren]

3 minutes ago, Dlyol said:

I don't disagree with this but I think it's worth noting that being at fifth ideal probably imposes significant limits on what you can do from a moral standpoint. Brandon points out that as well as Kryptonite the most significant limitation on Superman, that makes him interesting, is his strong sense of personal morality. That the only Fifth ideal Radiant we've seen is an insane Herald means we don't have great evidence on this but it seems fairly likely that becoming the essence of a concept; Law for the Skybreakers, one might hypothesise Leadership for the Windrunners or Love/Charity (one is tempted to say agape) for the Edgedancers places fairly rigid restrictions on what you can do.

(Also I know that the 1st ideal is a formality and that ideals are about the individual and his/her spren's interpretation but they clearly do impose some limits)

That is all true, but it would still seem odd to throw the basic limit of the system out of the window. Even in Mistborn when you have Mistborn or even Mistborn/Feruchemists, they still follow the same limitation as others. The God-King in Warbreaker still has to consume colours (but can use colours others can't). 

I'm sure that the Fifth Ideal would give great benefits, but I don't think it will break the system's main limitation in such a way. 

[Dlyol]

@Tazren Yeah, I think its unlikely that this Stormlight idea is true not least because I'm almost certain we see Nale leak Stormlight in Edgedancer and it would be game breaking as you say. I was just pointing out that the point of the ideals system (both in and out of world) is to create limitations on the magic system located firmly in the moral plane. In theory, although we have seen a fair amount of softness around the edges here, as you progress you get more shiny toys to play with but a much more constrained field of action to exercise them in. That is why the analogy with those other magic systems is a little weak - Allomancy or Breath has no endogenous moral constraints

Edited December 8, 2017 by Dlyol

[aurik]

36 minutes ago, Ralph Elorim said:

Is Nale's spren ever shown?

Technically, yes.  We do see him summon his shardblade (distinct from his honorblade).  So in that aspect yes, his spren is shown.

[mosaab]

my theory is that 5th ideal radiants develope gem hearts, and are able to store stormlight perfectly. Where they glow but the th don't leak. 

 

[mosaab]

27 minutes ago, Dlyol said:

@Tazren Yeah, I think its unlikely that this Stormlight idea is true not least because I'm almost certain we see Nale leak Stormlight in Edgedancer and it would be game breaking as you say. I was just pointing out that the point of the ideals system (both in and out of world) is to create limitations on the magic system located firmly in the moral plane. In theory, although we have seen a fair amount of softness around the edges here, as you progress you get more shiny toys to play with but a much more constrained field of action to exercise them in. That is why the analogy with those other magic systems is a little weak - Allomancy or Breath has no endogenous moral constraints

Does glow or leak? Does stormlight puffs from him when he talks?

[Toaster Retribution]

The Heralds didn't need spheres, so I'd be surprised if powerful Radiants didn't. Not needing spheres feels like "Heralds only". 

[Wandering Investor]

The Heralds, through their honorblades, are powered directly by Honor. Even though Honor is dead, his body aka energy is still around, and the herald's powers likely function as they used too. 

I suspect the 5th ideal will enable Radiants to use stormlight incredibly efficiently, and possibly allow them to stop leaking. Developing a gemstone is an interesting idea. Higherspren don't like to bond singers because of being trapped in the gemstone, but the human bond is purely spiritual, so they could develop a gemstone and the spren wouldn't have to be inside.

Edited July 16, 2018 by Wandering Investor
spelling

[StormingTexan]

Thinking about it I think Nale would be a bad example even if we had proof he does not need access to readily available stormlight since he is a Herald. This ability may be part of being a Herald there are a couple WoB that may imply this.

 

Quote

 

18th_Shard

Does a Herald using an Honorblade consume the same "dangerous" amounts of Stormlight?

Brandon Sanderson

Honorblades are less efficient; this doesn't change when a Herald uses them. (But they have other advantages.)

 

 

Quote

 

Rybal

Can the Heralds Surgebind without their [Honor]Blades, and if not are they under the same restrictions the Radiants are?

Brandon Sanderson

[...] I will say that the Heralds without their Blades are incapable of the powers you are familiar with. It doesn't mean there aren't other things they can do, but they are incapable of the powers you are familiar with throughout the book.

 

 

Edit: Ninja'd above while searching for WoBs

 

Edit again just found this WoB so sounds like Heralds would need access to Stormlight from gems now? Guessing this is because Honor is dead? 

 

Quote

 

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

There was a point when the Heralds didn't need to draw Stormlight from gems, although the Stormlight-in-gems predates Honor's arrival.

There was a following conversation about this topic, about how a lot of the elements were there before Honor arrived, but he co-opted them. So, Stormlight were there, but there are big differences now.

 

 

Edited December 8, 2017 by StormingTexan

[mosaab]

One of the reasons I like the gem heart theory is because I am tired of people telling me that you can beat a radiant by stalling them, until their stormlight ran out. 

Edited December 8, 2017 by mosaab

[Dlyol]

1 hour ago, mosaab said:

Does glow or leak? Does stormlight puffs from him when he talks?

So we have this from WOR

Quote

 

'She glanced down the hallway. She could swear he was glowing faintly, and he was certainly running too quickly.

Darkness was awesome too.' - WOR I-9 Lift

 

 

And in Edgedancer

Quote

 

He stumbled on the slick rock, blown by the winds, then started to glow.

He shot into the dark sky and vanished. - Edgedancer Chapter 19

 

 

So he's clearly efficient but not perfect at holding Stormlight and given that he's a Herald and at Fifth Ideal you'd expect him to be more efficient than a regular Radiant at Fifth Ideal

[mosaab]

3 hours ago, Dlyol said:

So we have this from WOR

And in Edgedancer

So he's clearly efficient but not perfect at holding Stormlight and given that he's a Herald and at Fifth Ideal you'd expect him to be more efficient than a regular Radiant at Fifth Ideal

Both instances without any inhalation, both instances followed by use of stormlight either by running too quickly or lashing.

Glowing is different from leaking.

He store stormlight in his his gem heart, he taps into it when he needs it, he starts to glow. 

like storing metal, only it doesn't poison you.

[Scion of the Mists]

We have a WOB that you don't necessarily have to literally inhale to intake Stormlight, so it's possible that Nale's doing something like that.  

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/35-arcanum-unbounded-hoboken-signing/#e2533

 

Quote

 

yulerule

One quick one: Stormlight breathing. Do you actually need to physically inhale or can you cognitively inhale? Like I can think about inhaling without actually inhaling?

Brandon Sanderson

You-- this is possible, and--

yulerule

Okay, like if you're trapped and you can't breath, but you can think about breathing.

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, yeah. That would be fine.

 

 

[Beatsmorn]

First, Surgebinders having gemhearts is RAFO, and not very likely.

Second, Nale is damnation Herald, Connected to Honor. Even after Tanavast death, he can probably still draw directly from Honor power. About regular KR of Fifth Ideal having access to Stormlight without spheres, I think that's great idea.

[Dlyol]

@mosaab It's really not obvious to me that glowing is different from leaking and even if it were this from earlier in that Edgedancer chapter seems to imply that he does leak at least somewhat and that he draws it in from a sphere (although it doesn't conclusively say that)

Quote

'Darkness dropped his sphere and moved with sudden, unexpected speed, bursting afire with Stormlight.' - Edgedancer Chapter 19

Anyway at the risk of being personal, do you not think you're engaging in quite a lot of motivated reasoning on this given that as you say here you want this theory to be true so that Radiants can be better off in those endless Mistborn vs Radiant threads rather than on its merits

5 hours ago, mosaab said:

One of the reasons I like the gem heart theory is because I am tired of people telling me that you can beat a radiant by stalling them, until their stormlight ran out.

 

[BurkSpren]

Something often overlooked, I am sure there was a quote somewhere claiming that the Windrunners of old could "bind the storms to themselves" or something similar.

Considering Kaladins nascent ability to divert the stormfront at only the 3rd ideal, I would think it entirely possible that a 5th ideal Windrunner would be capable of at least breaking off their own mini storm, and a group of them capable of all but summoning a high storm to their location at will.

If this were possible, it stands to reason that an endless supply of stormlight would be within reach already, and given their status as military leaders among the radiants, it seems the ideal situation for them.

Edit: Found the quote from Syl.. "Men who walked on walls, men who bound the storms to them. Windrunners. Why would you want to be rid of something like this?"

Edited July 15, 2018 by BurkSpren