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Rlain

[OB] Some personal Questions and Theories

8 posts in this topic

I'm curious if anyone has thought into the following ideas or has any evidence for or against them:

  1. Is there an intentional analogy between the Lifeless and the Shardblades?  If so, does it speak to a similar nature in Realmatic Theory?
    • We know that the Lifeless are the reanimated corpses of dead humans, sustained by an ichor and they have some small amount of cognitive function that enables them to obey orders better than the average awakened object in the shape of a person (though this could be because they are a person down to their internal organs and the rules of Awakening care about how similar you are to the object that you are representing when being awakened).  
    • Maya (Adolin's Shardblade) behaved much like a Liveless when they were in Shadesmar.  She would stand around and follow Adolin, but it wasn't able to really act on her own volition (except for the one time that Maya did do so).  
    • They are both the result of some form of severing of a connection between realms, and a piece remaining.  The Shardblades were the result of a severing of the Nahel bond
  2. Shardblades and the original Knights Radiant:
    • Are the original spren that were bonded to the Knights Radiant trapped in the gemstones of the Shardblades? 
      • This might explain why the Stormfather is so adamant not to be manifested as a sword.  He doesn't want to risk being trapped in a Shardblade when Dalinar inevitably breaks his oaths and fails like the Radiants of old.
      • In addition, we know that two spren can occupy the same gemheart, as seen with Venli and her Spren.  If there is a spren in the gemstone on the blade, can a second one be trapped in it?
    • Were all Shardblades the result of old Radiants abandoning their oaths?  It seems like there are too few Shardblades in the world for the number of Knights Radiant that there should have been.
  3. How do the timelines of the Nine Heralds choosing not to return to damnation and the knights radiant slowly abandoning their oaths relate to each other? 
    • Did the Knights Radiant abandon their oaths before the Nine found the loophole in theirs? 
    • Or did the Nine find the loophole, and then over time the Knights Radiant abandoned their oaths? 
    • Or did the Knights Radiant begin abandoning their oaths and then at some point during the recreance, the Nine wriggled out of theirs?
    • Was one of these events influenced by the other?
      • The Stormfather implies that the Knights Radiant abandoned their oaths after finding out that Humans were invaders on Roshar and gave up their powers out of some combination of not being able to perform their duties with that knowledge and a desire not to destroy Roshar like they destroyed their original planet.  But this doesn't make sense to me completely.  There were 10 orders of Knights Radiant, and only one survived this knowledge at all?  Unless the Skybreakers turned on the other Knights Radiant and fought to destroy them, I don't see how all 9 other orders could have fallen completely due to this knowledge.  Especially since it seems like our current Radiants are going to try to find a way to reconcile this information with their Oaths and most likely some of them will succeed.
  4. Is Odium or one of his Unmade able to alter the messages that are received via spanreed? 
    • On Scadrial, a Shard was able to alter the text that is written on non-metal.  Is it possible for Odium to perform a Man-In-The-Middle attack and act as a Proxy Server that listens to each of their messages and lets them through, but with slight alterations?  For instance, when Dalinar is talking to the Azish for the first time, he sends a message about this being a time for them to work together and the Azish responded with a message about how the death of King Gavilar was tragic and forms a bond between their peoples.  Dalinar comments that it "feels like they are having two completely different conversations".  Which could be because of politics.  Or it could be because they actually were having two, very slightly different conversations.
    • Are there any other instances that would imply this to be the case?  If not, then I don't think the theory holds water right now.
  5. If the Unmade are the reason for the Alethi Thrill, then is there a similar Unmade for the other kingdoms that explain their particular obsessions? 
    • The Azish are obsessed with bureaucracy.
    • The Thaylens worship the Passions, though this is a weak example at best.  
    • There are probably other examples that I haven't noticed.
  6. If the Thrill is the cause of the Alethi prowess on the battlefield, and is present in so many of Danilar's fights, how is it possible that the Unmade move around? 
    • The members of the Diagram talk about getting access to the Death Rattles again as they set up surgeons in the city that the Unmade causing them has moved to.
    • The Thrill recedes from Dalinar on the Shattered Plains, but comes back in full force when in Thaylen city because the Unmade was present.
    • But it couldn't be possible for a single Unmade to be in two places at once.  So I feel like the Alethi would have noticed that only at some times was the Thrill present during a fight and not at other times.  But we haven't really seen an indication of this other than from Dalinar on the Shattered Plains.  And other Alethi appear to have still been able to feel the Thrill then.
    • In addition, during Dalinar's flashbacks, he mentions that the energy he feels when in Shardplate feels similar to the Thrill.  Is there a connection between these we haven't explored yet?
  7. Would it be possible to trap a spren in the gemstones on a Shardplate? 
    • We know that spren can be drawn in with something they love and be trapped at that moment.  Would it be possible to trap it in that moment inside the gemstones of a Shardplate?  If so, would anything different happen?
  8. The third, not quite shard?
    • The Stormfather is a reflection of Honor and the Nightwatcher is the reflection of Cultivation.  And we know that there is a third sibling who the Stormfather warns Dalinar to stay away from because humans have "Hurt her enough".  Who is this?
    • I was thinking it might be a reflection of Odium, but that seems dubious, even if there would be symmetry with each one being a reflection of one of the Shards.
    • Perhaps it is a second reflection of Honor or Cultivation, but I'm not sure that Honor could have made two of these.  Cultivation may have been able to.
    • Maybe it's a reflection of another Shard alltogether.
    • Or maybe it's a reflection formed from Honor and Cultivation together.  A "child" formed from their joint wills to be more than either of them could have been alone.  Honorable Cultivation?
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I'd like to point out, that while I don't have time to respond to much of this right now, I love how analytical you are and how intensely you've read these texts! =)

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33 minutes ago, Rlain said:

I'm curious if anyone has thought into the following ideas or has any evidence for or against them:

Is there an intentional analogy between the Lifeless and the Shardblades?  If so, does it speak to a similar nature in Realmatic Theory?

  • We know that the Lifeless are the reanimated corpses of dead humans, sustained by an ichor and they have some small amount of cognitive function that enables them to obey orders better than the average awakened object in the shape of a person (though this could be because they are a person down to their internal organs and the rules of Awakening care about how similar you are to the object that you are representing when being awakened).  
  • Maya (Adolin's Shardblade) behaved much like a Liveless when they were in Shadesmar.  She would stand around and follow Adolin, but it wasn't able to really act on her own volition (except for the one time that Maya did do so).  
  • They are both the result of some form of severing of a connection between realms, and a piece remaining.  The Shardblades were the result of a severing of the Nahel bond

With Lifeless, I'm pretty sure that the person's soul has passed to the Beyond, and the Investiture in it is the only thing that is able to Interpret Commands. There may be some way that we see something more than that, as we see Clod has remnants of Arsteel's swordsmanship. I think that this is because there is a link between the body and the spirit web of the person who had passed, which after time the Breath inside the Lifeless can pick up on.

With Shardblades, they are what's left of a spren's soul once it is killed by a Radiant who betrayed their oaths. I'm not actually sure if spren can pass to the Beyond, which may be why they are simply locked into the form of the Shardblade (which is simply how they manifest physically). 

I do see the similarities, so you may be onto something. I don't think it's the same function, but there could be something I'm missing. It deserves further thought.

40 minutes ago, Rlain said:

Shardblades and the original Knights Radiant:

  • Are the original spren that were bonded to the Knights Radiant trapped in the gemstones of the Shardblades? 
    • This might explain why the Stormfather is so adamant not to be manifested as a sword.  He doesn't want to risk being trapped in a Shardblade when Dalinar inevitably breaks his oaths and fails like the Radiants of old.
    • In addition, we know that two spren can occupy the same gemheart, as seen with Venli and her Spren.  If there is a spren in the gemstone on the blade, can a second one be trapped in it?
  • Were all Shardblades the result of old Radiants abandoning their oaths?  It seems like there are too few Shardblades in the world for the number of Knights Radiant that there should have been.

The gemstones on Shardblades were not part of the original Blades formed by the spren. They were added after the Recreance at some point in order for Shardbearers to dismiss them. There may be some sort of spren in the gemstones, but not the Blade's spren. The Stormfather does not want to manifest as a sword because doing so would lock his form into a physical object, which would allow Dalinar to kill him by betraying his oaths. Gemstones have nothing to do with that.

All of the Shardblades did originate with the Radiants, and yes, there is a suspicious lack of Blades. I personally think the Skybreakers are hiding some, the spren in spren cities may be hiding some, and Aimians are hiding some. Then there are those who carry secret Shardblades that are little-known to most. There's definitely something weird about it, that I don't think is a mistake on Brandon's part, merely a hint at something important.

45 minutes ago, Rlain said:

How do the timelines of the Nine Heralds choosing not to return to damnation and the knights radiant slowly abandoning their oaths relate to each other? 

  • Did the Knights Radiant abandon their oaths before the Nine found the loophole in theirs? 
  • Or did the Nine find the loophole, and then over time the Knights Radiant abandoned their oaths? 
  • Or did the Knights Radiant begin abandoning their oaths and then at some point during the recreance, the Nine wriggled out of theirs?
  • Was one of these events influenced by the other?
    • The Stormfather implies that the Knights Radiant abandoned their oaths after finding out that Humans were invaders on Roshar and gave up their powers out of some combination of not being able to perform their duties with that knowledge and a desire not to destroy Roshar like they destroyed their original planet.  But this doesn't make sense to me completely.  There were 10 orders of Knights Radiant, and only one survived this knowledge at all?  Unless the Skybreakers turned on the other Knights Radiant and fought to destroy them, I don't see how all 9 other orders could have fallen completely due to this knowledge.  Especially since it seems like our current Radiants are going to try to find a way to reconcile this information with their Oaths and most likely some of them will succeed.

The Heralds abandoned the Oathpact possibly generations before the Recreance, at the tail end of the last Desolation 4500 years ago. The Recreance is an unknown number of years (to me at least, I may have just forgotten), but is still in modern history.

It has been theorized that the in world reasons thus given for the Recreance aren't all that went on. Some think (and I am growing to like this theory) that the Radiants originally shrugged it off like our current cast, but after perhaps a generation of ruling with the surges, something happened that made them know with certainty that they were dangerous. Perhaps they originally Shattered the Plains, and that acted as a wake-up call, leading to the actual event of the Recreance.

49 minutes ago, Rlain said:

Is Odium or one of his Unmade able to alter the messages that are received via spanreed? 

  • On Scadrial, a Shard was able to alter the text that is written on non-metal.  Is it possible for Odium to perform a Man-In-The-Middle attack and act as a Proxy Server that listens to each of their messages and lets them through, but with slight alterations?  For instance, when Dalinar is talking to the Azish for the first time, he sends a message about this being a time for them to work together and the Azish responded with a message about how the death of King Gavilar was tragic and forms a bond between their peoples.  Dalinar comments that it "feels like they are having two completely different conversations".  Which could be because of politics.  Or it could be because they actually were having two, very slightly different conversations.
  • Are there any other instances that would imply this to be the case?  If not, then I don't think the theory holds water right now.

Relevant WoB:

Quote

Wolfbeckett

Are things that are written by scholars on Roshar suspect? In Mistborn, Ruin could change anything that was written down, so can Odium do the same? Are written words on Roshar: untrustworthy, trustworthy because that ability was somehow limited to Ruin, or trustworthy because Odium COULD do it but just won't because it's not his style/he doesn't consider it?

Brandon Sanderson

Odium didn't have a hand in creating Roshar, and his essence doesn't permeate it in the same way as Ruin permeated Scadrial. This gave Ruin a great deal more power over things like this--except when he ran into metals, of course.

Another difference is that Odium has a fully-living, fully-aware, and very powerful Shard opposing him. (Contrasted to one that was half-dead and going mad.)

So yes, you can trust much of what was written. Odium can be subtle when he needs to be, but his primary avenue of attack has been along a different line than the one Ruin used.

Source.

So, Odium hasn't influenced Roshar through written word. Though your idea about the Unmade doing similar things is certainly possible, though so far it seems they aren't that intelligent.

1 hour ago, Rlain said:

If the Unmade are the reason for the Alethi Thrill, then is there a similar Unmade for the other kingdoms that explain their particular obsessions? 

  • The Azish are obsessed with bureaucracy.
  • The Thaylens worship the Passions, though this is a weak example at best.  
  • There are probably other examples that I haven't noticed.

If the Thrill is the cause of the Alethi prowess on the battlefield, and is present in so many of Danilar's fights, how is it possible that the Unmade move around? 

  • The members of the Diagram talk about getting access to the Death Rattles again as they set up surgeons in the city that the Unmade causing them has moved to.
  • The Thrill recedes from Dalinar on the Shattered Plains, but comes back in full force when in Thaylen city because the Unmade was present.
  • But it couldn't be possible for a single Unmade to be in two places at once.  So I feel like the Alethi would have noticed that only at some times was the Thrill present during a fight and not at other times.  But we haven't really seen an indication of this other than from Dalinar on the Shattered Plains.  And other Alethi appear to have still been able to feel the Thrill then.
  • In addition, during Dalinar's flashbacks, he mentions that the energy he feels when in Shardplate feels similar to the Thrill.  Is there a connection between these we haven't explored yet?

These questions are related, but I'll talk about the Thrill first.

The Unmade that causes the Thrill (Nergaoul) does so in a large radius around it. Dalinar (or perhaps the Mythica) theorizes that the Thrill is responsible for the Alethi battle prowess and thus their reputation. During Dalinar's youth, Nergaoul was present in Alethkar and the border of Jah Keved because it was drawn by that conflict and delights in driving men to destroy each other. It was present at the Shattered Plains for a while, until it wasn't. The reason it had withdrawn was because of the civil war in Jah Keved, which was probably more devastating than the skirmishes on the Plains. Then in Oathbringer, Odium brings Nergaoul to Thaylen city to help turn Dalinar.

With other nations, it's possible there is something driving them (the Passions are certainly a remnant of ancient Odium worship), but I'd have to look into what each Unmade does to say for sure. I personally doubt it, with the Azir.

I doubt the Thrill is related to the Shardplate enhancements in any significant way. Merely in coincidence in that they both push you to act and are both present in battles. They come from different places.

1 hour ago, Rlain said:

Would it be possible to trap a spren in the gemstones on a Shardplate? 

  • We know that spren can be drawn in with something they love and be trapped at that moment.  Would it be possible to trap it in that moment inside the gemstones of a Shardplate?  If so, would anything different happen?

As Shardplate Gems are already Invested in something and act like Fabrials, introducing another spren doesn't seem possible. If it is, it probably wouldn't help the plate in any way. It might be detrimental, or it might do nothing. I am no expert on Fabrial science though.

1 hour ago, Rlain said:

The third, not quite shard?

  • The Stormfather is a reflection of Honor and the Nightwatcher is the reflection of Cultivation.  And we know that there is a third sibling who the Stormfather warns Dalinar to stay away from because humans have "Hurt her enough".  Who is this?
  • I was thinking it might be a reflection of Odium, but that seems dubious, even if there would be symmetry with each one being a reflection of one of the Shards.
  • Perhaps it is a second reflection of Honor or Cultivation, but I'm not sure that Honor could have made two of these.  Cultivation may have been able to.
  • Maybe it's a reflection of another Shard alltogether.
  • Or maybe it's a reflection formed from Honor and Cultivation together.  A "child" formed from their joint wills to be more than either of them could have been alone.  Honorable Cultivation?

I think it's most likely a reflection of Honor and Cultivation together. the Sibling was referenced in the Part Three Epigraphs as having inhabited Urithiru, and once it withdrew, the city wasn't as functional, leading to the Knights Radiant abandoning the tower.

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There seem to be 3 great spren, the StormFather, Cuisecesh (SP), and the NightMother.  the Dialogue with the NightMother seems corrupted by Odium playing off passions and desires very strongly, the StormFather also seems to have a bit of corruption as well.  He doesn't act purely in an honorable fashion.  perhaps the 3 great spren are not directly a representation of a single shard, but are a mix, each with a large portion for their represented shard.  What if the NightMother is Odium/Cultivation, the StormFather is Odium/Honor, and Cushicesh (SP) is Honor/Cultivation and thus the one most hurt by the broken oaths.  Perhaps Cushicesh is a DeadEye, and is actually OathBringer.  There could only be 3 Bondsmiths, we have seen 2 with their minds still intact, one is just a giant silent water statue that only appears at a certain time.  And if a BondSmith were to name his blade something "OathBringer" would be that name, plus it looks like a giant fishhook (appropriate for a giant water spren), also it was carried by a proto BondSmith (as a Bit of Foreshadowing) and this blade also doesn't scream as loudly to Dalinar anymore, for a few vague reasons given by the StormFather.  I wonder if a BondSmith could reforge the bond between a DeadEye and a compatible host, or Just Reforge the broken Spren, much like Dalinar reforges the broken temple of Taln. 

Edited by Hawkido
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5 hours ago, Hawkido said:

There seem to be 3 great spren, the StormFather, Cuisecesh (SP), and the NightMother.  the Dialogue with the NightMother seems corrupted by Odium playing off passions and desires very strongly, the StormFather also seems to have a bit of corruption as well.  He doesn't act purely in an honorable fashion.  perhaps the 3 great spren are not directly a representation of a single shard, but are a mix, each with a large portion for their represented shard.  What if the NightMother is Odium/Cultivation, the StormFather is Odium/Honor, and Cushicesh (SP) is Honor/Cultivation and thus the one most hurt by the broken oaths.  Perhaps Cushicesh is a DeadEye, and is actually OathBringer.  There could only be 3 Bondsmiths, we have seen 2 with their minds still intact, one is just a giant silent water statue that only appears at a certain time.  And if a BondSmith were to name his blade something "OathBringer" would be that name, plus it looks like a giant fishhook (appropriate for a giant water spren), also it was carried by a proto BondSmith (as a Bit of Foreshadowing) and this blade also doesn't scream as loudly to Dalinar anymore, for a few vague reasons given by the StormFather.  I wonder if a BondSmith could reforge the bond between a DeadEye and a compatible host, or Just Reforge the broken Spren, much like Dalinar reforges the broken temple of Taln. 

I think Cuisecesh is more likely an Unmade, it's a lot smaller than a Bondsmith Spren and has nothing to do with Urithiru, and people feel drained after leaving its presence. 

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12 hours ago, Hawkido said:

There seem to be 3 great spren, the StormFather, Cuisecesh (SP), and the NightMother.

I suspect the Third Bondsmith Spren is actually "The Sibling" not Cusicesh. My guess is that the Sibling is in fact the Spren of Urithiru. 

This recent WoB is tantalizing:

Quote

 

Oathbringer London signing (Nov. 28, 2017)
#12 Share

Play/Pause

Kk- [PENDING REVIEW]

Was Melishi bonded to the Sibling?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

RAFO, good question. Very good question.

 

 

 
Edited by The Sovereign
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10 hours ago, Ookla the Effervescent said:

I think Cuisecesh is more likely an Unmade, it's a lot smaller than a Bondsmith Spren and has nothing to do with Urithiru, and people feel drained after leaving its presence. 

That is a very real possibility that I had not considered.  However Cusicesh's name might still be untranslated.  Also the ducts and passages throughout Urithiru's structure would be a perfect conduit for a giant waterspren to inhabit without getting in the way of it's other inhabitants, and it could then ferry away waste and bring fresh water and even pump air using arterial contractions.  It would basically become the blood of a living structure.  It would be rare for such a large spren to not be spotted or named this far into the series.  However if Cusicesh is not the sibling then the next best guess would be the giant blue glowing being that hurled a rock at Dalinar during the highstorm in one of his flashbacks (the one where Evi first got screentime).  I believe Kaladin also saw it once during a highstorm.  Those are the only 2 candidates for a great spren that I know of... but I do miss things, does anyone else have a candidate for the unnamed "Sibling".  I hope it isn't something that just shows up "Deus Ex Machina."

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14 minutes ago, Hawkido said:

That is a very real possibility that I had not considered.  However Cusicesh's name might still be untranslated.  Also the ducts and passages throughout Urithiru's structure would be a perfect conduit for a giant waterspren to inhabit without getting in the way of it's other inhabitants, and it could then ferry away waste and bring fresh water and even pump air using arterial contractions.  It would basically become the blood of a living structure.  It would be rare for such a large spren to not be spotted or named this far into the series.  However if Cusicesh is not the sibling then the next best guess would be the giant blue glowing being that hurled a rock at Dalinar during the highstorm in one of his flashbacks (the one where Evi first got screentime).  I believe Kaladin also saw it once during a highstorm.  Those are the only 2 candidates for a great spren that I know of... but I do miss things, does anyone else have a candidate for the unnamed "Sibling".  I hope it isn't something that just shows up "Deus Ex Machina."

The thing Dalinar saw in the storm is probably a glimpse of the cognitive version of a normal spren, perhaps the type that can (when corrupted) animate stone to become a thunderclast.

If you haven't yet, the Part Three Epigraphs podcast that our lovely moderators did last week has a lot of discussion on the sibling.

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