[Oathbringer] Mistborn vs Full Radiant round 2

[mosaab]

From the showing in the battle in thaylen city, what is everyone's opinion ? 

[Brightlord M. Alhstrom]

Just now, mosaab said:

From the showing in the battle in thaylen city, what is everyone's opinion ? 

OK, so with "Full Radiant", are we talking a 3rd Ideal Radiant, or a 5th Ideal radiant? Also, which Order? There is a big difference between the combat abilities of a Dustbringer/Skybreaker/Elsecaller and a Truthseeker/Bondsmith/Willshaper.

[mosaab]

Let's take the bondsmith out of it.

There is this idea that some orders are more fit for combat than other, but I just don't buy that. Just consider shallan & jasnah.

Think about what a lightweaver trained in combat, with full shards and shallan & jasnah levels lightweaving & soulcasting.

 

Edited December 4, 2017 by mosaab

[Yata]

5 minutes ago, mosaab said:

Let's take the bondsmith out of it.

There is this idea that some orders are more fit for combat than other, but I just don't buy that. Just consider shallan & jasnah.

You have to considerate that Lightweaving is useless aganist a Mistborn and Soulcasting is really hard to affect them. Under standard circumstances a Mistborn is immune to Soulcasting (but it could be used indirectly on them).

Many Surges could become really strong or useless aganist a Mistborn so the Order changes a lot. Of course also a Surgeless Radiant will be still a Full Shardbearer with Stormlight's powerup

[mosaab]

Jasnah soulcasted air to oil in front of a fused then lit it on fire .

You could do that to a mistborn.

 

 

Edited December 4, 2017 by mosaab

[Yata]

6 minutes ago, mosaab said:

Jasnah soulcasted air in front of a fused then lit it on fire .

You could do that to a mistborn.

This is the indirect use I talked about and remember what we saw Jasnah did is beyond the standard usage. She were overcharged of Stormlight and the Realms were blured.

Under standard conditions she will be unable to performe something like that fast and in a reliable way.

Of course if we considerate the Mistborns as opponest. They are high mobile warriors with a stealty approch and long range attacks.

Unluckly for any kind of enemy. The Mistborn have a really wide array of options to use in battle and those option give an edge in almost every situation if the Mistborn himself knows how to use them

[mosaab]

The stealth argument always bugged me, it's just a byproduct of the setting where ash and mist makes it the logical approach most of the time.

Also we have seen that both  awakeners & surgebinders can be stealthy.

Imotional allomancy is meaningless because of investiture.

Jasnah can soulcast from a distance even back in karbranth, she can soulcast cloths,weapons even air into rock for momentary protection.

If the theory that shardplate comes from lesser spren, you could just command them to cover the eye slits, because the helm terns semi translucent when you lower it. If that's not enough, have the spren form in the shape of net where you can see but nothing bigger than a needle can inter.

[Xenolith]

Let's assume we're dealing with Radiants of the third Ideal, since with a few exceptions we have no idea what abilities more advanced Radiants gain. Because Surgebinders have Shardblades and can heal from normally fatal wounds, fighting in close combat is a really bad idea for Mistborn, even assuming that pewter enhancement is stronger than general stormlight enhancement. The question really becomes: Does the Mistborn have enough metal to drain the Radiant's stormlight from a distance, and what can the Radiant do about it?

The surges that allow strong counterplay to a Mistborn trying to stay at range are Gravitation and Transportation. Illumination might also work for that purpose, but Mistborn have bronze. What we don't quite know yet is which surges allow ranged attacks, and to what extent they do, but let's assume Transformation works for indirect attacks at range, and that Dustbringers can attack at range as well. Then Stonewards seem to be able to reshape materials, and could use that to fashion a barricade and force a tie. So taking aside Dalinar, who may be as special as Vin, the Radiants most in trouble would be Bondsmiths, Truthwatchers and Edgedancers.

[mosaab]

56 minutes ago, Xenolith said:

Let's assume we're dealing with Radiants of the third Ideal, since with a few exceptions we have no idea what abilities more advanced Radiants gain. Because Surgebinders have Shardblades and can heal from normally fatal wounds, fighting in close combat is a really bad idea for Mistborn, even assuming that pewter enhancement is stronger than general stormlight enhancement. The question really becomes: Does the Mistborn have enough metal to drain the Radiant's stormlight from a distance, and what can the Radiant do about it?

The surges that allow strong counterplay to a Mistborn trying to stay at range are Gravitation and Transportation. Illumination might also work for that purpose, but Mistborn have bronze. What we don't quite know yet is which surges allow ranged attacks, and to what extent they do, but let's assume Transformation works for indirect attacks at range, and that Dustbringers can attack at range as well. Then Stonewards seem to be able to reshape materials, and could use that to fashion a barricade and force a tie. So taking aside Dalinar, who may be as special as Vin, the Radiants most in trouble would be Bondsmiths, Truthwatchers and Edgedancers.

How can a mistborn drain stormlight from a distance?

[Xenolith]

40 minutes ago, mosaab said:

How can a mistborn drain stormlight from a distance?

Force them to heal wounds.

[Yata]

2 hours ago, mosaab said:

The stealth argument always bugged me, it's just a byproduct of the setting where ash and mist makes it the logical approach most of the time.

True but this is how the Mistborn are trained and where their abilities reaches their peak.

2 hours ago, mosaab said:

Also we have seen that both  awakeners & surgebinders can be stealthy.

True to an extent (well Radiants are not really stealty) but for example a Mistborn will catch them both as they will ping his Bronze-sense well before the enemies are at reach.

2 hours ago, mosaab said:

Imotional allomancy is meaningless because of investiture.

True if you consider the Plate as it will boost the Interference but false if you assume the simple "I am invested" as nobody reacts differently to Emotional Allomancy while they are burning metal (unless it's copper but this is another kind of situation).

2 hours ago, mosaab said:

Jasnah can soulcast from a distance even back in karbranth, she can soulcast cloths,weapons even air into rock for momentary protection.

Yeah she could but it's harder than what we saw in OB's ending. I agree the Soulcasting is a huge and variegated magic but it's not allmighty. it tooks a lot of Stormlight to each use and every coverage hides the mistborn too.

2 hours ago, mosaab said:

If the theory that shardplate comes from lesser spren, you could just command them to cover the eye slits, because the helm terns semi translucent when you lower it. If that's not enough, have the spren form in the shape of net where you can see but nothing bigger than a needle can inter.

I don't know if the Plate is so malleable but for the argument we will assume it could performe this. This prevent the one shot (unless something really terrible happens) but the Plate could be shattered with mundane ways (not so unlikely for someone with a Coin-gatling or with meele hits comparable to a Shardbearer's ones) and with Chromium who could mess with the Plate to a degree.

45 minutes ago, mosaab said:

How can a mistborn drain stormlight from a distance?

Indeed I see no way for a Mistborn to drain stormlight from distance of his own, sure you could use one of the Ettmetal Grenade but I assume it wasn't his strategy. I am a bit curious

[mosaab]

9 minutes ago, Yata said:

I don't know if the Plate is so malleable but for the argument we will assume it could performe this. This prevent the one shot (unless something really terrible happens) but the Plate could be shattered with mundane ways (not so unlikely for someone with a Coin-gatling or with meele hits comparable to a Shardbearer's ones) and with Chromium who could mess with the Plate to a degree.

 

Plate can make you run faster than a horse, and jump 30 feet. Also dalinar was kicking corpses ten feet into the air.

A radiant can turn their blade into an indestructible shield.

A mistborn uses the environment to his advantage.

A radiant changes the environment to his advantage.

[Midgardsormen]

A Radiant with the gravitation surge (Windrunner or Skybreaker) would be able to chase down any Mistborn, as they are much more mobile. As long as the Radiant has enough Stormlight, I don't see any way for the Mistborn to kill the Radiant. 

 

Unless some Feruchemy is mixed into it, I expect the Radiant (of the right order) to win.

[Yata]

10 minutes ago, Midgardsormen said:

A Radiant with the gravitation surge (Windrunner or Skybreaker) would be able to chase down any Mistborn, as they are much more mobile. As long as the Radiant has enough Stormlight, I don't see any way for the Mistborn to kill the Radiant. 

An Head crush blow will kill a Radiant, so the Plate's helm is the key of a Radiant's survival.

Like I said before there are a lot of variable in this battle. The kind of Radiant will change drastically the fight, some are quite useless in this fight while other could be great matches for Mistborn's abilities.

In the end the Radiants are more specializated in a little number of tasks while the Mistborn have a wider array of option but almost none of them is gamebreaking alone.

[MPHRD]

I feel like a Mistborn has two strategies, outlast (stormlight gets used way faster then metals) or leech with Chromium. If either way I bet they would use steel/iron with bendalloy to jump around till they can get close. 

[Julio]

On 12/4/2017 at 11:15 AM, Yata said:

An Head crush blow will kill a Radiant, so the Plate's helm is the key of a Radiant's survival.

We have direct confirmation that the surge of Regrowth will allow them to heal from a crushed head. Renarin was fighting a Thunderclast, was smashed into the floor, and just got up and kept fighting. I see no way that that does not include "crushed skull." 

[Leyrann]

I would argue that a Radiant would win because of their healing powers and ability to do a one-hit-kill.

A Fullborn though... Yeah they'd defeat a Radiant no problem. Feruchemist might as well. Healing is important. It means you can take risks your opponent cannot take.

Edited December 6, 2017 by Ookla the Leyspren