Jump to content

[OB] Adolin's breaking


PrincessMorpheus

Recommended Posts

33 minutes ago, MonsterMetroid said:

I am interested on how you came to this conclusion though Calderis?

Because it's a Cosmere constant, that at this point the only exception I know of is Awakening. 

Quote

Jeremy (paraphrased)

We know that Mistborn needed to Snap, and Surgebinders needed have the cracks in their souls filled. But what about the people in Warbreaker or Elantris? Is cracking and snapping only required on certain worlds?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

This is universal to the cosmere; however, in certain magic systems / on certain worlds, this is easier than others.

source

They are the same thing. We just don't know the minimum threshold for Roshar.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, Alderant said:

A Mary Sue character is generally considered to be one that never does wrong. Wikipedia - " A Mary Sue is an idealized and seemingly perfect fictional character." It's not that he magically finds a way and has no character depth, its just that he's seemingly perfect. Ewan McGregor's character in Down With Love begins very much as a Mary Sue character--he's a "ladies' man, man's man, man about town." Loved by all, admired by all, all women want him, etc. This is very much in line with how Adolin is described and treated within the story. He's the most elegible bachelor in Alethkar, he's extremely handsome, charming, the best duelist, and honorable to boot. He puts others first, sacrificing his own desires and insecurities for what is best for those he cares about. All the main characters, and many supporting charcters, like him. He instantly wins bridge four over. And, I mean, if the guy can murder one of the most important and powerful men in the Alethi kingdom and no one cares/he is congratulated for it, I would argue quite strongly that Adoliln is a Mary Sue character.

Apologies for jumping in the middle of the chain, I hope you won't mind.

You are right Adolin is presented in the manner that people like him a lot. But that's only on the surface. Women break up so often with Adolin it's become a source of jokes, his peers abandoned him once the reputation of his house is not up to their standards. Adolin fails to connect to people on a deeper level. Sure, he's liked by his subordinates and that is important, but those are basically the only people who genuinely like him outside of his family. Adolin didn't have a single friend to even anonymously tip him off about what was planned for him in the 4vs1 duel. Adolin sounds like he's a people's person, but in reality has fewer friends than even Dalinar.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, MonsterMetroid said:

I agree that it shouldn't be because "he is nice to it" or "he likes to talk to it". It is because he views it as a part of himself

I believe Adolin formed a bond with the blade cognitively, he views it as part of himself so much that it is so. The other things which you mentioned are just symptoms of the true cause.

A majority of readers will never buy it if Brandon writes it this way: Adolin becoming a Radiant is controversial enough as it is, make him become one without giving him a story arc which befits a Radiant and they'll disengage themselves from the character. Already, the dreaded words "Mary Sue" have started to pop around, here and on Reddit: the term is being used to describe the character. Whether or not it is appropriate is an entirely other matter, as @Alderant and @BraidedRose have discussed, but I do think readers starting to use the term when referring to Adolin is symptomatic of how they feel about his story arc. 

It was bland. Simplistic. Adolin comes across as "perfect": whether he is or not is not relevant, what is relevant is a majority of readers do get the sad feeling everything he handed to him on a golden platter. He can do no wrong, even when bad things happened to him, they never are bad enough to cause him to stumble. Have this character, this very same character at least half the fandom has been arguing should NOT become a Radiant, figure out how to revive his dead-Blade just by being "open-minded" is honestly not going to make it.

In a story where becoming a Radiant is described as taking one step forward followed by two steps backwards, in a story where each one of our fleshed out examples have gone through intense pains to achieve their current level, having the most controversial character join their ranks through the back door, without having gone through any damaging development will definitely reinforce the idea Adolin indeed is.... a Mary Sue. Not to forget I honestly do not see the interest within this story arc. How is having Adolin revive Maya even interesting if he only achieves it because he "supposedly managed to developed a deeper connection with it without even intending to do it"?

Bottom line is, while it is true we have a WoB which states it is possible to form a Nahel Bond without being broken, I do think this isn't a narrative choice which can realistically be employed on a high number of characters. We have Lopen which fits the bill (confirmed by WoB). Adolin is just not the right character to use it, the blade revival story arc is just not the right arc to picture this. 

Of course, some readers disagree with me, but my stance is firm: Adolin reviving his Blade without ever breaking down is not interesting character development.

7 hours ago, Alderant said:

I agree with everything you said here.

Your points are actually what I was trying to address, and maybe was misunderstood here. Adolin is a viewpoint character, but as I said with epic fantasy writing, merely being a viewpoint character does not necessarily mean that you are a main character (according to the author). In Harry Potter, Harry is the main character--there's only one, and with the style it is written in, only main characters get viewpoints. Ron and Hermione are the sole secondary characters, with the rest of the cast being relegated to tertiary or lower priority within the story. In this style of fiction, generally all characters other than the main are viewed as supplementary, with only primary (main) and secondary characters usually getting resolution at the end of the series.

In SA, Adolin fills a similar priority role to Ron, but due to the stylistic differences (where characters other than main characters get viewpoints), he gets much more screen time. He is not a "minor supporting character," as you mention here, though neither I would argue is Ron. Adolin is a secondary character--I would argue that Navani, your other example, is actually of tertiary importance in SA. She has very few conflicts, very little development, and exists primarily as a character dependent on a main character's development for her own. Adolin is not written this way. He has actual arcs, albeit they are small. He has independent plots that are written, as opposed to Navani. However, as a secondary character his primary role is to augment and support the main characters and their plotlines and developments. He's not wholly dependent on a main character for his development--he's in this weird middle ground where he matters just enough to us to be important, but not quite enough to be fully developed as we would like.

I do agree that he had begun to outgrow his role as a secondary character during WoR. The murder of Sadeas was, at the time, a big deal. It was a cliffhanger ending for the character, and one that promised a lot. Unfortunately, it appears that to the author, the murder of Sadeas was much less important than it was written to be, and because of Adolin's secondary nature, the aftermath for Adolin is not as important as other events. This is why what happened to Adolin never really mattered in OB, because although he appeared to start outgrowing his role, in the author's eyes this was simply never the case. This is also why I argue that the whole Maya arc will either A) not be as important as some believe (because Adolin simply isn't an important enough character to the plot), or B ) the Maya resurrection idea will be a catalyst for something that happens later of more significance to the plot. I would have liked to see more--it just doesn't seem like Adolin is being written that way.

I also agree with what you are saying.

One interesting comparison aspect to have, in between Harry Potter and SA, are the readers expectations.

By its narrative structure, single-POV story entirely focused on Harry, the chosen one, the Harry Potter series never entertained the idea other characters might eventually have their own story arcs. The story was most definitely and irrevocably about Harry Potter: there is absolutely nothing wrong with this narrative choice. It was simple, straight-forward. Side characters such as Ron and Hermione did get small story arcs though they were always told from Harry's perspective and, despite starting up as a comical relief, Ron does have individual growth when he becomes the keeper of his quiddish team. It was a small arc, but a very satisfying one for a side character readers never expected much of besides having him support Harry. In a way, having Ron have a crisis over being the second fiddle to Harry was right within the tone of the series: it never exceeded nor went below reasonable expectations faithful readers of the series were bound to have.

SA, by its narrative structure, allows for a greater cast of fleshed-out characters. By definition, as you rightly pointed out, epic fantasy will allow several characters to be protagonists and to be fully developed. The expectations are, one stepping into multi-POV epic fantasy, more than 2-3 characters will eventually share the narrative, have story arcs completed with momentum, climax and denouement. SA is no exception: it was clear from the start its narrative structure was allowing more than one character to shine. In fact, I would strongly argue, the first two books introduced us to four major viewpoints: Kaladin, Shallan, Dalinar and Adolin. Yes, Adolin whom, I shall recall has a story of similar size as Dalinar's within the first two books. I personally felt he had a stronger presence in WoR than Dalinar, hence the idea Adolin is supposed to be nothing more than a supplement character stopped working the moment his narrative was both more central, more exciting and equivalent in terms of page time as Dalinar's. 

This moment happened in WoR. Therefore, unlike Harry Potter, SA definitely planted the idea into numerous readers Adolin was one of the major characters as nothing suggest, by the narrative choices the author made himself, Dalinar is the "superior" character. Sure, he's the Radiant, but a character needs not to be magical to be a protagonist (Tavi in Codex Alera being one example, Lan/Min/Mat/Perrin in WoT).

The end result was some readers didn't like how Adolin was handled in OB because the author broke his narrative: he ignored it. He made the character insignificant unless he had an immediate use. He broke down on expectations his own narrative choices created which were entirely right, reasonable and realistic to have. Epic fantasy always has a large cast of fleshed out characters, SA is written as following this canvas, Adolin is one of the major viewpoint characters: how can it ever be satisfying to have the author just wave it all from the back of hands, pushing forward other characters having played nothing more than a superficial role? I have nothing against Renarin, Jasnah, Lift, Szeth and Venli, but they currently are real supporting characters. The fact they are supposed to eventually grow does not make them "more important" to the narrative than one of the four characters I've been reading since the beginning. He certainly is more important than even Navani who probably had the most useless viewpoints in OB. Why were we reading her again? What was the added value of her viewpoint? Oh find out she made a painrial? We didn't need her viewpoint for this to happen... 

So where does it leave us with Adolin? I have absolutely no idea. I want to believe Brandon has "a plan" for the character, I want to believe it will be awesome, but I have to call a cat, a cat. Brandon missed too many opportunities to give Adolin more meaning and a deeper arc for it to be accidental. At this point in time, my leading theory is the one you exposed: Brandon doesn't believe in Adolin as a stronger character, he views him as a supplement character and a foil, as such he is writing him as such even if it makes little sense given everything which is happening to both him and around him.

5 hours ago, BraidedRose said:

One of the things that is fascinating about this discussion (and any discussion of Adolin really) is that if we take Brandon at his word, Adolin was supposed to be a "what you see is what you get" character and yet clearly he isn't since the readers see so many different interpretations. 

I have said something along those lines a while ago. Brandon intends Adolin to be a straight-forward, no questions, very basic, strong, normal character to contrast with his main cast. He failed. Adolin created more discussion prior to OB's release than any other character. He is still creating conversation post-OB's release, though I suspect he won't be the major talk during the next four years. 

Brandon totally, irrevocably missed the boat with Adolin's character... Readers have more questions about him than any other characters with the exception of perhaps Shallan. Readers have more various interpretation over his character than any other characters. In a general manner, readers agree about Kaladin, Dalinar, Shallan (less so here but there are lesser interpretations); they do not however agree over Adolin. They never did. So while there are those which felt is story arc in OB was sufficient and satisfying, there are those who felt it was a big disappointment and/or a missed opportunities.

My prediction is we aren't done hearing readers label Adolin as a Mary Sue. The Maya arc will not make unanimity, not based on how it has been written and readers are unlikely to all agree as to whether or not Adolin is broken.

5 hours ago, CrazyRioter said:

I can definitely see Adolin as the sort of person who would form a bond based on openess to it.

While it is technically not impossible, I think it would terrible for the main narrative. You can't have one of your viewpoint characters get the butter, the money to buy the butter, the cow to make the butter and the market to sell the butter all while your other characters are struggling to even wake-up in the morning. 

You just can't. This would ruin the character, though I suspect there will be those who'll actually like it if it were to happen. Needless to say I will not be one of those.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, maxal said:

While it is technically not impossible, I think it would terrible for the main narrative. You can't have one of your viewpoint characters get the butter, the money to buy the butter, the cow to make the butter and the market to sell the butter all while your other characters are struggling to even wake-up in the morning. 

You just can't. This would ruin the character, though I suspect there will be those who'll actually like it if it were to happen. Needless to say I will not be one of those.

Well put, as always. Thats exactly what Ive been trying to say. Thank you for your post. I think we’re on the same page here.

Cookie for maxal!

Spoiler

Soft-Batch-Double-Chocolate-Cookies-6.jp

 

Edited by Alderant
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 1/23/2018 at 10:26 PM, maxal said:

Seeing how Brandon handled Adolin in OB, I would rationalize Dalinar having murderer Evi and torched the Rift is unlikely to matter to his character. Logically though, it should. In OB, Adolin speaks of how his mother was murdered to Kaladin and Shallan. He mentions how Sadeas has torched the Rift, how his father, overcome with grief and wounds, was unable to stop him... Adolin believes Sadeas is responsible for the Rift. Adolin believes his father would have stop him had he been able to.

I'm a bit behind in the thread, but I'll concede this point. I forgot about Adolin's view of the events of the Rift. It will hit him harder than I originally thought, but I don't think it'll hit him as hard as you want it to. I still argue that Dalinar did not murder Evi (see spoiler below). Additionally, Dalinar *did* try to let people out of the Rift, but Sadeas had already set fire to the lower exit. So yes, Adolin learning the truth of the events at the Rift will be a heavy blow (because it shakes his view of his father and probably his view of Sadeas). But Evi's death specifically won't be the biggest part of it.

 

Alloy of Law spoiler

Spoiler

If Dalinar murdered Evi, then did Wax murder Lessie? In both cases, actions taken killed each character. But I wouldn't call either of them murder.

Mistborn Era 2 spoiler

Spoiler

Disregarding the events of Shadows of Self and Bands of Mourning...in which "Lessie" didn't actually die.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 hours ago, Govir said:

I'm a bit behind in the thread, but I'll concede this point. I forgot about Adolin's view of the events of the Rift. It will hit him harder than I originally thought, but I don't think it'll hit him as hard as you want it to. I still argue that Dalinar did not murder Evi (see spoiler below). Additionally, Dalinar *did* try to let people out of the Rift, but Sadeas had already set fire to the lower exit. So yes, Adolin learning the truth of the events at the Rift will be a heavy blow (because it shakes his view of his father and probably his view of Sadeas). But Evi's death specifically won't be the biggest part of it.

Once upon a time, there were discussions wanting Adolin to be an anger prone young man. Those thoughts were fueled by Adolin starting WoK by downright hating Sadeas for no apparent reason. If Sadeas was seen to sometimes talk badly about his father, Adolin's anger seems disproportionate. It made some readers argue he was easily angered and, as such, he could become a vessel for Odium.

I thought OB brought in new elements to the table... This scene where Adolin recalls how his mother died: he wasn't fine with it. There was sorrow in his voice, but there was something else... an anger. Rebels murdered his mother and, in retribution, Sadeas destroyed an entire town: an act so vile the real culprit, Dalinar, was kept away from the battlefields. Imagine the mix of emotions: on one side he believes the Rift murdered Evi, but on the other side he cannot accept the subsequent action from his own side. It was obvious to me Adolin blamed Sadeas and found a way to explain why his glorious father couldn't prevent it from happening.

Thus, it may very well be Adolin hated Sadeas since the Rift, he hates him for what he did to a town filled with innocent people. It may be why he is so fine with killing Sadeas: this man was so vile he didn't deserve to live.

The truth however is so much more cruel... Dalinar ordered the Rift to be burned. Evi, kind Evi, tried to stop him but failed, so she ran to the enemy to warn them, to find a way for them to further negotiate likely hoping her being captive would force her husband to reconsider. Tanalan send messengers: Dalinar killed them without hearing them. He never knew they were the bearers of the news his wife was a prisoner until it was too late to stop the brazier. And Sadeas? He obeyed the orders, cruelly, but he obeyed the orders. Dalinar insisted there were to be NO way out. It was his call, his decision.

So how is Adolin supposed to react when he found out Dalinar is the one who torched the Rift? How is he supposed to react upon finding out his mother was not killed by rebels, but died trying to protect a town filled with civilians? Dalinar may not have held the knife to Evi's throat, but she died because of him, she died because of what he planned to do. He may not mean to kill her, but he meant to kill every living soul in Rathalas. If Evi died, then Dalinar has no one else to blame but himself. The examples you listed were entirely different: it was a mistake and bad luck. Evi dying was not bad luck: it was an event which happened entirely because of Dalinar, because of what he planned to do and because what he did. It was no accident.

I do think finding out Evi died to protect the Rift should create an impact on Adolin's character. He thinks she was the collateral victim of a war, a victim of rebels when in truth she died to do what he has excused his father for not doing: she died for the people of Rathalas. This duality is absolutely fascinating and interesting: Adolin son of the Blackthorn, raised to be a soldier, terrifying killing machine, but also son of the kindest, bravest woman who gave her life to stop a war.

If Brandon is a clever writer, then he'll make one of Adolin's moments be one where he has to decide: violent retribution or protect the innocents, the forgotten... Be the Blackthorn or be... Evi.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 hours ago, Govir said:

I'm a bit behind in the thread, but I'll concede this point. I forgot about Adolin's view of the events of the Rift. It will hit him harder than I originally thought, but I don't think it'll hit him as hard as you want it to. I still argue that Dalinar did not murder Evi (see spoiler below). Additionally, Dalinar *did* try to let people out of the Rift, but Sadeas had already set fire to the lower exit. So yes, Adolin learning the truth of the events at the Rift will be a heavy blow (because it shakes his view of his father and probably his view of Sadeas). But Evi's death specifically won't be the biggest part of it.

 

Alloy of Law spoiler

  Reveal hidden contents

If Dalinar murdered Evi, then did Wax murder Lessie? In both cases, actions taken killed each character. But I wouldn't call either of them murder.

Mistborn Era 2 spoiler

  Reveal hidden contents

Disregarding the events of Shadows of Self and Bands of Mourning...in which "Lessie" didn't actually die.

 

So yeah, from the man himself:

Quote

“I did kill the people of Rathalas,” Dalinar shouted. “You might have been there, but I made the choice. I decided!” He stilled. “I killed her. It hurts so much, but I did it. I accept that. You cannot have her. You cannot take her from me again.”

Sanderson, Brandon. Oathbringer: Book Three of the Stormlight Archive (pp. 1134-1135). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. 

Dalinar killed Evi. Whether he meant to is irrelevant. It's not murder, but he killed her and he as to live with that

 

51 minutes ago, maxal said:

Once upon a time, there were discussions wanting Adolin to be an anger prone young man. Those thoughts were fueled by Adolin starting WoK by downright hating Sadeas for no apparent reason. If Sadeas was seen to sometimes talk badly about his father, Adolin's anger seems disproportionate. It made some readers argue he was easily angered and, as such, he could become a vessel for Odium.

I thought OB brought in new elements to the table... This scene where Adolin recalls how his mother died: he wasn't fine with it. There was sorrow in his voice, but there was something else... an anger. Rebels murdered his mother and, in retribution, Sadeas destroyed an entire town: an act so vile the real culprit, Dalinar, was kept away from the battlefields. Imagine the mix of emotions: on one side he believes the Rift murdered Evi, but on the other side he cannot accept the subsequent action from his own side. It was obvious to me Adolin blamed Sadeas and found a way to explain why his glorious father couldn't prevent it from happening.

Thus, it may very well be Adolin hated Sadeas since the Rift, he hates him for what he did to a town filled with innocent people. It may be why he is so fine with killing Sadeas: this man was so vile he didn't deserve to live.

The truth however is so much more cruel... Dalinar ordered the Rift to be burned. Evi, kind Evi, tried to stop him but failed, so she ran to the enemy to warn them, to find a way for them to further negotiate likely hoping her being captive would force her husband to reconsider. Tanalan send messengers: Dalinar killed them without hearing them. He never knew they were the bearers of the news his wife was a prisoner until it was too late to stop the brazier. And Sadeas? He obeyed the orders, cruelly, but he obeyed the orders. Dalinar insisted there were to be NO way out. It was his call, his decision.

So how is Adolin supposed to react when he found out Dalinar is the one who torched the Rift? How is he supposed to react upon finding out his mother was not killed by rebels, but died trying to protect a town filled with civilians? Dalinar may not have held the knife to Evi's throat, but she died because of him, she died because of what he planned to do. He may not mean to kill her, but he meant to kill every living soul in Rathalas. If Evi died, then Dalinar has no one else to blame but himself. The examples you listed were entirely different: it was a mistake and bad luck. Evi dying was not bad luck: it was an event which happened entirely because of Dalinar, because of what he planned to do and because what he did. It was no accident.

I do think finding out Evi died to protect the Rift should create an impact on Adolin's character. He thinks she was the collateral victim of a war, a victim of rebels when in truth she died to do what he has excused his father for not doing: she died for the people of Rathalas. This duality is absolutely fascinating and interesting: Adolin son of the Blackthorn, raised to be a soldier, terrifying killing machine, but also son of the kindest, bravest woman who gave her life to stop a war.

If Brandon is a clever writer, then he'll make one of Adolin's moments be one where he has to decide: violent retribution or protect the innocents, the forgotten... Be the Blackthorn or be... Evi.

I think that making Adolin's arc choosing which legacy to follow would be just... boring. We've seen that before in fantasy a lot, and I think it degrades his character. The interesting thing to me about Adolin isn't that he's like his father, it's that he's like his UNCLE. Gavilar was a good duelist, charismatic, had some self control issues but grew out of them... honestly, Adolin seems to b e following in a lot of Gavilar's footsteps except Adolin came to the Codes and honor a lot earlier in his life than Gavilar. I think Adolin is less an exploration of his parents legacy and more an exploration of what kind of person Gavilar could have been.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, Vortaan said:

I think that making Adolin's arc choosing which legacy to follow would be just... boring. We've seen that before in fantasy a lot, and I think it degrades his character. The interesting thing to me about Adolin isn't that he's like his father, it's that he's like his UNCLE. Gavilar was a good duelist, charismatic, had some self control issues but grew out of them... honestly, Adolin seems to b e following in a lot of Gavilar's footsteps except Adolin came to the Codes and honor a lot earlier in his life than Gavilar. I think Adolin is less an exploration of his parents legacy and more an exploration of what kind of person Gavilar could have been.

Adolin supposedly walking into the footsteps of Gavilar is a narrative I personally find boring... Adolin never wanted to be a leader, even less a king whereas Gavilar wanted a kingdom. Adolin would have never launched a war to built himself a nation, he would have never attacked and burned helpless cities and he would certainly never plotted to bring back a Desolation.

I also wouldn't say Adolin is charismatic. He's nice. He's genuine. He's authentic, but he is not charismatic. He is not inspiring leader: Dalinar was so wrong to think Adolin could have ruled the Highprinces. 

I find having Adolin chose his own path in life, which may not be the one Dalinar laid down for him, is actually very interesting. He's a character who never got to chose, having him make his own stance is definitely interesting and it does seem like his arc is going down this way, with him resisting Dalinar, for once.

Adolin is nothing like Gavilar, but he has much of Evi in him.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Chaos locked this topic
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...