[OB] Nightblood's Sheath

[Rlain]

I found a WoB that Nightblood's Sheath is made of Aluminum:  https://wob.coppermind.net/events/171-oathbringer-release-party/#e8162

I find this very interesting for the following reasons.

1. Nightblood's sheath is able to block Nightblood's consumption of the investiture of the person who is wielding it.
2. We know from Mistborn that Aluminum is an allomantically inert metal and can also block pushing and pulling on emotions, and it is plausible that it could actually make it so you could not sense someone burning metals inside a box made entirely of Aluminum (though I don't have confirmation on that).
3. The Fused are able to locate uses of investiture like spanreeds and Kaladin's small lashing of the rock that he does to get their attention, but strangely not things like summoning a shardblade or lightweaving.
4. Azure has a soulcaster that is being used underground in a bunker lined with sheets of metal that block the Fused from being able to sense the fabrial being used.
5. In our world, aluminum is a conductor is really high quality.  It is used to create ElectroMagnetic Screening systems, which offer shielding from ElectroMagnetic waves.  http://www.aluminiumdesign.net/why-aluminium/properties-of-aluminium/

I think that the metal lining that bunker is Aluminum, which is both an Allomantically inert metal and a metal that can block Nightblood's investiture draining.  It would stand to reason that it is in fact a metal that can block all forms of investiture related sensation.  So Nightblood can't feed on investiture when in his sheath because he can't sense it and the Fused can't locate the bunker because they can't sense it.

This has a couple potential implications:  

1. Nightblood uses some kind of investiture sense like Bronze to be able to locate objects that have investiture in them.  Unlike Bronze, this picks up on all forms of investiture, not just Allomantic uses, and is able to pick up on inert forms of investiture (investiture that isn't actively being used to change something, like a person's BioChromatic Breath).  
2. The Fused are using an investiture sensing, not a Spren sensing.  
3. Investiture usage may actually give off an ElectroMagnetic field, since it is able to be blocked by Aluminum.

[Rlain]

One other thing I just found:  Sanderson says there is a slight relationship between investiture and magnetism:

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/171-oathbringer-release-party/#e8182

So I think it safe to say that investiture gives off an ElectroMagnetic field.  Or perhaps it's an Investo-Magnetic field.

[Lelouch Vi Britannia]

I took an embarrassingly long time to pick up on this. But yeah, Investiture is vaguely electromagnetic. Any possible implications of this? And where did Hoid get that much Aluminium? It's extremely rare in the Cosmere (or on all the planets where it's been mentioned), and that fits with how rare and valuable aluminium was in IRL medieval times. 

[Unhinged]

2 minutes ago, LewsTherinTalamon said:

I took an embarrassingly long time to pick up on this. But yeah, Investiture is vaguely electromagnetic. Any possible implications of this? And where did Hoid get that much Aluminium? It's extremely rare in the Cosmere (or on all the planets where it's been mentioned), and that fits with how rare and valuable aluminium was in IRL medieval times. 

I haven't seen anything in the Cosmere that tells me that Aluminum is actually rare it's just that none of the worlds we've seen so far have worked out the modern refinement process. Sanderson telling us how valuable it is, is actually a case of him having done his research. in our world up till 1854 there was only one way to remove the impurities from Aluminum and that was using chemicals and it was so incredibly expensive that for quite a while Aluminum was actually more valuable than gold. and even when they figured out how to use the modern electric processes it required so much energy that it wasn't really feasible until the late 1800s/early 1900s. As to where Hoid got that Aluminum there's a line in WOR where they mention that Aluminum can be soulcast, however people treat it just as an oddity and no one has made the connection that it blocks investiture at least not in recent times.

[Rlain]

Unhinged, that is really cool to know.  Thank you for the info.

[kmosiman]

There are few few other threads floating out there on Aluminum (Cosmere general forum I think). 

As things in the overall Cosmere progress further it should be very interesting to see the role Aluminum plays; especially as people realize what it can do and better ways of making it. 

From Coppermind

Quote

Roshar[edit]

Items can be Soulcast into aluminum.^[7] However, aluminium resists attempts to soulcast it into other essences.^[19] Shardblades are unable to cut aluminum.^{[20][21][nb 1]}However, this is only through magical means. If the aluminum is thin enough a Shardblade may cut it purely by virtue of having a sharp edge and by applying enough force.^[22] Aluminium can block spanreed communication, and can prevent Soulcasting from being detected by others.^[23]

While it can be Soulcast, I remember reading somewhere that the Stormlight cost was high or that it was hard to do; so there may be a limit to how much can be made.  

[Wandering Investor]

31 minutes ago, kmosiman said:

From Coppermind

Quote

Roshar[edit]

Items can be Soulcast into aluminum.^[7] However, aluminium resists attempts to soulcast it into other essences.^[19] Shardblades are unable to cut aluminum.^{[20][21][nb 1]}However, this is only through magical means. If the aluminum is thin enough a Shardblade may cut it purely by virtue of having a sharp edge and by applying enough force.^[22] Aluminium can block spanreed communication, and can prevent Soulcasting from being detected by others.^[23]

As pointed out, aluminum has a canceling effect on most/all forms of investiture, not just sensing powers. And in the part where Hoid brought the aluminum, I think he brought it in sheets. They just covered the room, and as long as the aluminum is thin, it won't take too much.

[kmosiman]

In the case of blocking detection this would be correct.

Others have pointed out that a better solution to the Half-Shard fabrials would be Aluminum. A shield with a thick enough coating could stop a Shardblade, but this would require more metal. An Aluminum suit of armor would be theoretically* Shardblade proof.

*Until the opponent dented it in and crushed you.

[Witless1der]

This is something I have been curious about: the ability of aluminum to shield/cancel forms of magic. Is it any aluminum that does this, regardless of origin, by virtue of its metallurgic properties? Or only aluminum from Scadrial, because the effect requires investiture? Most of the magical negation by aluminum has been seen on Scadrial, where all aluminum is already invested. And I think that the few times it's seen clearly having this effect on another world, it was always provided by someone who was a veteran world-hopper! So is this just the world-hopper providing useful knowledge from their travels and using local metals, or is the world-hopper importing Scadrial metals because that's the only kind of aluminum that will work this way? Hoid has previously mentioned "an entire mercantile ecosystem" based around Scadrial's region of Shadesmar, so I don't think it's entirely out of the question. I'm pretty sure this export of Scadrial metal would be the only way an Allomancer could use their power on another world, but I don't know whether or not the aluminum has to be invested to nullify magic, since it doesn't require 'burning' to be used this way.

[BeskarKomrk]

2 hours ago, Witless1der said:

This is something I have been curious about: the ability of aluminum to shield/cancel forms of magic. Is it any aluminum that does this, regardless of origin, by virtue of its metallurgic properties? Or only aluminum from Scadrial, because the effect requires investiture? Most of the magical negation by aluminum has been seen on Scadrial, where all aluminum is already invested. And I think that the few times it's seen clearly having this effect on another world, it was always provided by someone who was a veteran world-hopper! So is this just the world-hopper providing useful knowledge from their travels and using local metals, or is the world-hopper importing Scadrial metals because that's the only kind of aluminum that will work this way? Hoid has previously mentioned "an entire mercantile ecosystem" based around Scadrial's region of Shadesmar, so I don't think it's entirely out of the question. I'm pretty sure this export of Scadrial metal would be the only way an Allomancer could use their power on another world, but I don't know whether or not the aluminum has to be invested to nullify magic, since it doesn't require 'burning' to be used this way.

Any aluminum will work. There's a metal in The Emperor's Soul called Ralkalest that has similar Investiture-resisting properties. WoB says Ralkalest is just the local name for aluminum.

[Witless1der]

I did not even think of Ralkalest! Thanks!

[Scattered]

On ‎12‎/‎1‎/‎2017 at 0:14 PM, Rlain said:

This has a couple potential implications:  

1. Nightblood uses some kind of investiture sense like Bronze to be able to locate objects that have investiture in them.  Unlike Bronze, this picks up on all forms of investiture, not just Allomantic uses, and is able to pick up on inert forms of investiture (investiture that isn't actively being used to change something, like a person's BioChromatic Breath).  

Do we have any proof that Bronze does NOT pick up on all forms of investiture? There is a scene where Vin spots Hoid and decides not to meet him because it doesn't feel right to her, and there was a lot of discussion at the time about why that was. I believe the prevailing theory was that she was sensing his Lightweaving, which would mean that Bronze could be used to sense investiture, rather than just Allomancy.

This is a minor point, but I suppose it could mean that anyone with the ability to burn Bronze could theoretically detect anyone using a Surge on Roshar. Might be a handy way to detect Knight Radiants...

[RShara]

34 minutes ago, Scattered said:

Do we have any proof that Bronze does NOT pick up on all forms of investiture? There is a scene where Vin spots Hoid and decides not to meet him because it doesn't feel right to her, and there was a lot of discussion at the time about why that was. I believe the prevailing theory was that she was sensing his Lightweaving, which would mean that Bronze could be used to sense investiture, rather than just Allomancy.

This is a minor point, but I suppose it could mean that anyone with the ability to burn Bronze could theoretically detect anyone using a Surge on Roshar. Might be a handy way to detect Knight Radiants...

The answer to why she avoided Hoid is actually in Secret History, if you haven't read it.

 

As to aluminum, any Al from any planet will work, not just Scadrial.  Just like metal from any world will fuel Allomancy, and and polestone from any world, including synthetic gems, would hold Stormlight.

[Scattered]

Aah I had forgotten that part, thanks. Though that doesn't necessarily disprove the theory about Bronze potentially being able to locate investiture other than Allomancy.

[The One Who Connects]

1 hour ago, Scattered said:

This is a minor point, but I suppose it could mean that anyone with the ability to burn Bronze could theoretically detect anyone using a Surge on Roshar. Might be a handy way to detect Knight Radiants...

Maybe, maybe not. From a discussion me and Yata had:

Spoiler

Quote

On 10/23/2017 at 9:42 AM, The One Who Connects said:

I guess we'll have to ask Brandon at some point if a Seeker like Marsh could detect a "Nahel Bond" specifically when the KR is just wandering around without Light or Blade.

This makes me curious if a Seeker could detect Stormlight leaking from Spheres and/or if Stormlight leaking from a Radiant would "sound" any different. hrmm... with Spheres and Spren all around, Roshar has the potential to wreak havoc with a Seeker's senses. Could make for an interesting perspective chapter if/when Era 4 takes to Space.

Well a Seeker would be unable to detect a Nahel Bond also if the KR is high Invested....Seekers detects Kinetic Investiture and also if high Invested, the KR would be mainly filled with Innate Investiture. We have a WoB for example on a Seeker as able to detect only the Blade's summon/dismiss and not the Blade for the whole time.

I am quite confident (but not proofs) that a Seeker would be unable to detect the Spren around (unless they are performing surges. While for the Stormlight's leaking I think the Seeker would feel it and yes...it would be not really pleasant (without considerate "hearing an Highstorm coming")

On 10/23/2017 at 10:15 AM, The One Who Connects said:

Quote

I am quite confident (but not proofs) that a Seeker would be unable to detect the Spren around.

I was thinking more along the lines of when Spren pop into existence around people (moments of fear, glory, anger, etc..). That seemed more like an... "action," for lack of a better word, so it felt like something that might qualify. I can see why it wouldn't, but I can also see a case for why it would count.

Quote

(without considering "hearing an Highstorm coming")

I hadn't even considered that. Brandon made a very wise decision making this an ability you can activate rather than having it be a passive trait.

There would be a lot of potential mixed signals coming in on Roshar.

And regarding Bronze:

Quote

Brandon Sanderson
I am staying away from answering too many questions like that until I start having it happen. But do know that the magics interact... some ways they interact very naturally, some ways, they don’t. One way I’ve released is, you could use bronze on most forms of Investiture to find it.

---

Brandon Sanderson
They do not know how to do it… on Scadrial. But you can theoretically detect all kinds of active Investiture. Investiture that's being used. Kinetic Investiture would be the way to call it.

---

Brandon Sanderson
If you were really good at burning bronze, you could use bronze to distinguish between different types of Investiture from different planets even. And that sort of skill does exist in other magic systems.

Argent
Is it like a wavelength kind of thing?

Brandon Sanderson
Yea, that's exactly what it is.

---

Brandon Sanderson
If he recognized something about the burning, it would have to be in the personal way someone was burning the metal. However, Bronze is capable of sensing other types of investiture. Expand from that as you wish.

[RShara]

Brandon has said that Bronze can sense other types of Investiture.

Quote

LazarusRises

Can a Seeker burning bronze detect a Surgebinder using Stormlight? Do different Surges have different pulses?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, and yes. Good questions.

 

[Subvisual Haze]

As a corollary, I wonder if a squad of well distributed copper cloud smokers could completely neutralize Odium's yellow detection spren.

I also wonder if Hoid seeing through Shallan's lightweaving was him hearing her (presumably subtle) pulses via burning bronze, or if he was lifesensing the amount of investiture she was carrying.

[Scattered]

Thanks for those WoB! Nice to know an idea I had wasn't completely off base for once.

[Gnmish]

15 minutes ago, Scattered said:

Thanks for those WoB! Nice to know an idea I had wasn't completely off base for once.

I came here for talk of Aluminium, and was not disappointed.

I love how often Cosmere theories are proven right, often several books/years after being postulated by the fans.

It just shows how artfully detailed the works are, and also how fanatically analytical the community is

[Stormfather-in-Law]

10 hours ago, Subvisual Haze said:

As a corollary, I wonder if a squad of well distributed copper cloud smokers could completely neutralize Odium's yellow detection spren.

I also wonder if Hoid seeing through Shallan's lightweaving was him hearing her (presumably subtle) pulses via burning bronze, or if he was lifesensing the amount of investiture she was carrying.

I think neither. I don't have the book with me, but he had a jar of something (memory says a white powder that turned black on one side, remember thinking that a bit remarkable for other reasons..) and he first looked at that with surprise. Only after seeing that did he start looking around in the crowd for the culprit. So he had some sort of warning device.