Rlain

Question about the Speed of Light

16 posts in this topic

I don't know if there is a WoB on this yet, but I wasn't able to find one.  Are the Conjoiner spanrials (spanreeds and other fabrials that function by creating identical effects across distances) limited by the speed of light?  The speed of light imposes a limit on how fast information can be transmitted.  So is it possible to transmit information faster than the speed of light using a spanrial?

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That is a really good question. Here's what I'm thinking so far; The speed of light is pretty darn fast. so transmitting info from one point to another in Roshar, probably wouldn't take very long to travel, if going near the speed of light. So yeah, it probably is affected by the speed of light (unless this is a different universe entirely, and effected by different physics) but the speed of light is so fast, that traveling across just one planet, it doesn't effect the instantaneity of a spanreed.

 

Just my opinion though.

Edited by Benjamin_Stormblessed
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Yeah, it's not relevant immediately, but it could have implications if one were to take a spanreed to a non-Roshar planet.  Or if you were to bring one half into Shadesmar.

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true. Would it even be possible to take a spanreeed to the cognitive realm? and then further, could a spanreed sustain the connection from as far away as another planet? For example, in several fabrials that Navani was working on in WoR, the gemstones would shatter after a certain period of time, or if they were far away from each other. so it's hard to say, but it would definitely be a factor from another planet. 

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So there is a phenomenon in our world that is tied to quantum mechanics that actually breaks the speed of light in involves entanglement theory.  Any physicists out here please feel free to correct me but the conept goes that you take a pair of particles that are entangled and no matter how far apart you separate them anything that one of them does the other will reflect it instantly does matter if they are 10 miles or ten thousand light years if yours says state 1 the other also says state 1. 

Now practical applications for this is not really possible yet on earth, BUT i remember Sanderson saying this was part of the source matteral for span reeds. As such i believe it is truly instantly (In Cosmere terms: The connection between the reeds is Spiritual so time and space are meaningless and speed of light doesn't matter.)

EDIT:

See WIkipedia: Quantum entanglement

Also https://wob.coppermind.net/basic_search/?query=spanreed WOB span reed communications FTL

Edited by Tsidqiyah
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Based on my rudimentary knowledge of Physics (University level, but no official training in Quantum, and several YouTube videos on the subject), that is a current phenomenon in Quantum Mechanics.  There's a great MinutePhysics video on it.  

I was unaware that quantum entanglement was an inspiration for spanreeds.  Since that's the case, then I think it very likely that spanreeds are not limited by the speed of light. 

Thanks!

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Pretty sure it's quantum entanglement. 

From a Realmatics perspective... I'd say that though their physical aspect is trapped and split, their cognitive aspect remains one, so it just mirrors actions. The one that confuses me a bit is the inversers like the lifted platform. Not sure how a combined cognitive aspect results in opposite physical effects. 

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Apart from the inspiration from quantum entanglement, it is powered by investiture, which has as of yet unknown interactions with physics, so it's entirely possible that it is FTL.

Edited by Ookla the Noble
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Perhaps it, somehow, uses the Spiritual connection and therefore is not "traveling" per se. The Spiritual Realm is a place outside time and space (or some derivation thereof)

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Quantum Entanglement is supposed to be instantaneous, but it can NOT be used to send information faster than light. 

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On 12/1/2017 at 7:03 PM, ZenBossanova said:

Quantum Entanglement is supposed to be instantaneous, but it can NOT be used to send information faster than light. 

Would you mind elaborating?  I was under the impression that you could collapse the superposition of one of the entangled particles and have it instantaneously collapse the waveform of the other.  Would this not be information that was transmitted faster than the speed of light?

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10 hours ago, Rlain said:

Would you mind elaborating?  I was under the impression that you could collapse the superposition of one of the entangled particles and have it instantaneously collapse the waveform of the other.  Would this not be information that was transmitted faster than the speed of light?

Correct, but the only way to tell it has happened, is to double check with a signal that does not go faster than light, so any actual information can not travel faster than light. 

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10 hours ago, ZenBossanova said:

Correct, but the only way to tell it has happened, is to double check with a signal that does not go faster than light, so any actual information can not travel faster than light

That is like saying that a telegraph does not transfer information faster than the speed of a horse because the only way to know if the information was sent is to go to the other end of the telegraph, listen in, and then bring the information back. The information does travel faster than the speed of a horse, just as how in quantum entanglement the information does travel faster than the speed of light. We just have to get better at this kind of technology, and then we can trust it to send messages, just as how we had to learn to trust telegraphs, and then phones, and then the internet.

We just do not yet have a very practical purpose for it , at least that I know of. It would be like people living in a small home setting up a telegraph to speak with each other in the home. Yelling would work much better and be far more practical.

Edited by TheTigerKandra
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12 hours ago, TheTigerKandra said:

That is like saying that a telegraph does not transfer information faster than the speed of a horse because the only way to know if the information was sent is to go to the other end of the telegraph, listen in, and then bring the information back. The information does travel faster than the speed of a horse, just as how in quantum entanglement the information does travel faster than the speed of light. We just have to get better at this kind of technology, and then we can trust it to send messages, just as how we had to learn to trust telegraphs, and then phones, and then the internet.

We just do not yet have a very practical purpose for it , at least that I know of. It would be like people living in a small home setting up a telegraph to speak with each other in the home. Yelling would work much better and be far more practical.

I am sympathetic to this viewpoint, but as it stands right now, we can't tell how things entangle, without a regular-speed signal. Keep in mind, that Entanglement is just a kind of statistical correlation. 

If it makes you feel better, one of the most interesting theories out there right now is called "ER=EPR", which suggests that those entangled pairs, are really connected by quantum sized wormholes. 

So, who knows? Maybe in the future we can do some crazy super-luminal stuff with it, but right now we just can't. 

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On 12/5/2017 at 8:16 AM, TheTigerKandra said:

That is like saying that a telegraph does not transfer information faster than the speed of a horse because the only way to know if the information was sent is to go to the other end of the telegraph, listen in, and then bring the information back. The information does travel faster than the speed of a horse, just as how in quantum entanglement the information does travel faster than the speed of light. We just have to get better at this kind of technology, and then we can trust it to send messages, just as how we had to learn to trust telegraphs, and then phones, and then the internet.

We just do not yet have a very practical purpose for it , at least that I know of. It would be like people living in a small home setting up a telegraph to speak with each other in the home. Yelling would work much better and be far more practical.

That's just not how it works though. I'm no physicist and I don't claim to understand quantum entanglement all that well myself, but look up the no-communication theorem. As I understand it, the modern consensus is that if two particles A and B are entangled, taking measurements of A will produce random results, and taking measurements of B will produce random results, but if you compare those two measurements they will correlate. However, there is no way to force A to produce a certain value (without setting it up that way beforehand), so no communication is actually happening. You're just reading random values from A that you expect to match random values someone else is reading from B, but they're still random and no information is conveyed.

An imperfect analogy I've seen is two people tuning to the same radio station. They'll hear the same thing, but that doesn't let them communicate with each other.

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Of course, spanreeds obviously correlate perfectly, so the physics isn't relevant here.

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