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[OB] How do the Fused get Voidlight?


eltari

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I haven't seen a mention of this yet, but to me it seems like the Fused are completely overpowered.  How are they getting the Investiture to use their abilities non-stop? The Fused are everywhere, you never see any mention of how they tap their powers (no external source), they have no problem using surges in Shadesmar when Stormlight is a precious thing for everyone else there.  The only reason Thaylen City was saved is because Dalinar went equally overpowered and filled a nation's amount of gemstones with Stormlight.  And they still almost lost.

The only possibility I see, is they are tapping Odium directly as their power source.  Which is pretty busted having a directly line to a Shard (not counting short bursts), and not seen anywhere else in the Cosmere so far in-canon. 

 

Edited by eltari
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Well, the strongest possibility is the Everstorm, the same way Highstorms provide stormlight. In addition, that explains why the Everstorm was stationary above Thaylen City during that battle.

7 minutes ago, eltari said:

The only possibility I see, is they are tapping Odium directly as their power source.  Which is pretty busted having a directly line to a Shard, and not seen anywhere else in the Cosmere. 

Bolded: Not at all. This is what happens when the mists power Allomancy on Scadrial, i.e. Vin and Elend at certain climactic points. In addition, this is how the Honorblades and Heralds used to work. WoB here: 

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/117-boskone-54/#e1572

Steeldancer

The Heralds, back before Honor died, were they directly powered by Honor?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. You’ll find out more about that, but the Shardblades [pretty sure he means Honorblades here] were pieces of Honor’s soul that he gave them and direct access to his essence.

Steeldancer

Like Vin and Elend?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, a little like that. That’s why Honorblades don’t work like Shardblades do, like Radiants do.

Steeldancer

The second part of the question is, what would happen if they were directly powered by Honor and they were holding Nightblood?

Brandon Sanderson

RAFO

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True, I'll edit the post as far as Vin using the Well.  But my intent with that statement was unchecked direct line for indefinite use.

And I'm looking at on screen canon.  If there's a WoB on it, I guess that trumps the statement, but we haven't seen a Herald unload their power.

 

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Though now thinking on that WoB, it seems all the more likely that the Fused are tapping Odium, especially since the Heralds are Honor's response.  So Honor did 10 people, and Odium has hundreds? 

Not a big surprise here but just goes to show just how bad the Herald's betrayal has hit humans on Roshar, and why Nale is capitulating. 

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58 minutes ago, eltari said:

I haven't seen a mention of this yet, but to me it seems like the Fused are completely overpowered.  How are they getting the Investiture to use their abilities non-stop? The Fused are everywhere, you never see any mention of how they tap their powers (no external source), they have no problem using surges in Shadesmar when Stormlight is a precious thing for everyone else there.  The only reason Thaylen City was saved is because Dalinar went equally overpowered and filled a nation's amount of gemstones with Stormlight.  And they still almost lost.


 

Really? I got the opposite impression. They seem like total chumps compared to radiants of the third ideal. In my opinion they are more comparable to squires or radiants of the first/second ideal. In terms of surges they are almost completely outmatched, only having access to one at a time and surges that are apparently weaker. The only thing they have going for them is their apparently infinite voidlight. Even then, Dalinar can now summon stormlight at will so.... 

Anyway here are some relevant epigraphs:

Quote

A coalition has been formed among scholar Radiants. Our goal is to deny the enemy their supply of Voidlight; this will prevent their continuing transformations, and give us an edge in combat.

Quote

Our revelation is fueled by the theory that the Unmade can perhaps be captured like ordinary spren. It would require a special prison. And Melishi.

Quote

Ba-Ado-Mishram has somehow Connected with the parsh people, as Odium once did. She provides Voidlight and facilitates forms of power. Our strike team is going to imprison her.

So it seems that the Fused are indeed connected to Odium, but they can also draw voidlight from this unmade.

Edited by Varenus
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The way I'm seeing it, isn't in the individual nature of the Fused, but in the cumulative effect that their resurrection with the Everstorm is going to have on the Radiants.  Odium has hundreds of Fused, with more waiting to find hosts (which doesn't make much sense to me since some of the other Fused have been shown to have had multiple bodies already).  Odium when he decides to infuse the Everstorm further, can come pretty much whenever he wants it, bring forth more Fused. 

Even with their powers, there aren't many Radiants right now to be able to stand against them.  Radiants will wear themselves out defending against overwhelming numbers.  Which isn't really related to their power level, but was part of my thought on why I thought of them as overpowered. 

And do we know for sure that Dalinar can do that at will?  I know there was a line about superpowering Kaladin, but can we say that he can infinitely recharge gems?  That's something I kind of expected Radiants would have to have else how could they fight during the Weeping, but haven't really seen yet.

As for the Unmade and their effects, good call.  Forgot about those.

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@eltari Oh, I see what you are saying about the Fused now. When I saw the word overpowered, I immediately assumed we were talking about raw magical strength. But you are correct, from a larger, tactical point of view the Fused do have a large edge. The Fused's numbers, level of skill, ability to reincarnate, and Odium's apparent affinity for planning do give his side the edge thus far. 

7 minutes ago, eltari said:

Odium has hundreds of Fused, with more waiting to find hosts 

If I remember correctly one of the Fused states to Venli that their greatest warriors have yet to "wake up", so i'm not so sure that its a matter of hosts, but rather that there are more Fused still on Braize. Also, the hosts have to be willing participants and the regular parshpeople did not seem too keen on fighting just yet. That's why they need Venli to spread propaganda.  

As for Dalianr, it is implied that he can do it at will, but that he gets tired after words. So there are some limits.

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Maybe Singers are able to hold much more Stormlight/Voidlight than humans. Also, it's been stated many times humans are "bad vessels" and leak easily. This could be a comparison to the Singers and their ability to hold Stormlight/Voidlight much longer.

Do you think the Radiants would have fared better with Kaladin's squires, or with Nale's crew of Dustbringers? Maybe with the ability to fight on more fronts they deal with the battle better. Or maybe they run through the Stormlight quicker and someone doesn't survive like Renarin or Kaladin who each took a huge beating.

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6 minutes ago, Naurock said:

Maybe Singers are able to hold much more Stormlight/Voidlight than humans. Also, it's been stated many times humans are "bad vessels" and leak easily. This could be a comparison to the Singers and their ability to hold Stormlight/Voidlight much longer.

Do you think the Radiants would have fared better with Kaladin's squires, or with Nale's crew of Dustbringers? Maybe with the ability to fight on more fronts they deal with the battle better. Or maybe they run through the Stormlight quicker and someone doesn't survive like Renarin or Kaladin who each took a huge beating.

massive amount of the Stormlight was used by Shallan and her illusions, though.  A couple of squires to fly around and help Lift and Szeth get the gem means that the illusions can be ended sooner, saving Light.  A few more to help Kaladin can mean he doesn't take such a beating from the Fused.  A final couple squires to help out Renarin means maybe he only gets squished once instead of thrice, and also they open the Oathgate to allow reinforcements sooner rather than waiting for Bridge 4 to come and help out because they should never have left in the first place.

Air superiority is the primary way that the US military controls a battlefield.  The enemy has done a fairly poor job of this so far, but even so it has enabled them to completely change the nature and course of battles.  It's implied that the battle for Kholinar was largely a one-sided rout because of the fliers, while it would have been a much more even engagement without them (even given the thunderclasts would have ensured their victory, if they only had ground troops it would have been bloody and costly).

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Just a note to add to the conversation since I haven't seen it discussed much, the only time we see a Fused run out of voidlight in OB is when Rysn's larkin snacks on the one that tried to rob the Thaylen treasury in the interlude.  

Given that their supplies seems to far outmatch Radiants unless a highstorm is around or Dalinar is deus ex-ing a treasury full of spheres, this seems like a key tactic the Radiants will need to use in coming books.  Otherwise, handfuls of Fused can just play the attrition game and outlast whole groups of Radiants, as based on Kaladin's description of Dalinar charging his batteries it isn't something that can happen repeatedly.

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22 minutes ago, kaellok said:

massive amount of the Stormlight was used by Shallan and her illusions, though.  A couple of squires to fly around and help Lift and Szeth get the gem means that the illusions can be ended sooner, saving Light.  A few more to help Kaladin can mean he doesn't take such a beating from the Fused.  A final couple squires to help out Renarin means maybe he only gets squished once instead of thrice, and also they open the Oathgate to allow reinforcements sooner rather than waiting for Bridge 4 to come and help out

Maybe so, or maybe the Squires try to help Kaladin and they keep getting hit by the giant carapace Fused. They're not battle tested with their lashes, and maybe they eat up too much Stormlight near Kaladin trying to help and need too much healing. I know Shallan used a large amount of the Stormlight on the illusions, and I don't disagree with you, I'm just kinda posting a think about it. Maybe that's why Dalinar only saw two Radiants in his vision with the shadow creatures.

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55 minutes ago, Naurock said:

Maybe Singers are able to hold much more Stormlight/Voidlight than humans. Also, it's been stated many times humans are "bad vessels" and leak easily. This could be a comparison to the Singers and their ability to hold Stormlight/Voidlight much longer.

Actually, there is a very good reason this might be the case: Gemhearts. Gems are where stormlight, and presumably voidlight are best held. We know Chasmfiends and there ilk can regenerate and hold stormlight in there gemhearts very efficiently. That's probably the primary difference. If the Fused hold the Investiture in their Gemhearts, which I'm pretty sure has been implied, it would make perfect sense that it leaks much more slowly than humans.

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I assumed the Everstorm fuels Voidlight like the highstorms fuel Stormlight. Not sure what the difference is in regards to how Voidlight is stored though. Maybe there are special gemstones that hold it. Maybe it is powered and stored directly into the Fused themselves. 

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Wasn't there a comment made by Szeth in the prologue to WoK about Voidbringers holding stormlight perfectly? Found it...

Quote

It leaked away, the human body too porous a container. He had heard that the Voidbringers could hold it in perfectly. But, then, did they even exist?

The truth to this could speak to the Voidbringers perfectly holding Voidlight, and coupling that with gemhearts, it makes sense. That would also explain why the unmade people had to swallow a gem, to allow the voidlight / essence to be stored.

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20 minutes ago, Andy92 said:

I assumed the Everstorm fuels Voidlight like the highstorms fuel Stormlight. Not sure what the difference is in regards to how Voidlight is stored though. Maybe there are special gemstones that hold it. Maybe it is powered and stored directly into the Fused themselves. 

Kinda like the all black sphere Gavilar had in WoK? o.O

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7 hours ago, eltari said:

Odium has hundreds of Fused, with more waiting to find hosts (which doesn't make much sense to me since some of the other Fused have been shown to have had multiple bodies already)

What I think is happening here is that the Spirits/Voidspren/Dead_Listeners have to find their way through from Braize to Roshar. So far only a couple hundred have done so, but you will eventually have thousands.

The reason they seem so OP right now, and wouldn't have in the past is that in the past the Heralds started refounding the Knights Radiant much sooner. By this part of the Desolation, you would already have dozens (if not hundreds) of Knights Radiants and potentially hundreds (if not thousands) of Squires. Not only that, but the Kingdoms of the World would have been united under the leadership of the Heralds and thus you would have a whole lot more resistance by the humans than you do in this one.

I agree with the gemhearts being part of why they can hold it for so much longer. And it might be that while the Voidsurges are less powerful, they also don't use up Investiture quite as fast. This might explain why none of them have run out yet.

As for the Everstorm being the source of Voidlight, I doubt it. For one thing, the Everstorm wasn't there in the past desolations. Unless Ba-Ado-Mishram somehow started imitating the Stormfather, thus creating the Everstorm. That would be cool, if Ba-Ado-Mishram became the Everstorm's equivalent of the Stormfather, thus explaining why the Everstorm exists this time, and why that is the new source of Voidlight. Otherwise, I assume that Ba-Ado-Mishram just goes around refilling Fused with Voidlight. Her being the Everstorm would make her much more mobile though.

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13 hours ago, Brightlord Maelstrom said:

What I think is happening here is that the Spirits/Voidspren/Dead_Listeners have to find their way through from Braize to Roshar. So far only a couple hundred have done so, but you will eventually have thousands.

The reason they seem so OP right now, and wouldn't have in the past is that in the past the Heralds started refounding the Knights Radiant much sooner. By this part of the Desolation, you would already have dozens (if not hundreds) of Knights Radiants and potentially hundreds (if not thousands) of Squires. Not only that, but the Kingdoms of the World would have been united under the leadership of the Heralds and thus you would have a whole lot more resistance by the humans than you do in this one.

I agree with the gemhearts being part of why they can hold it for so much longer. And it might be that while the Voidsurges are less powerful, they also don't use up Investiture quite as fast. This might explain why none of them have run out yet.

As for the Everstorm being the source of Voidlight, I doubt it. For one thing, the Everstorm wasn't there in the past desolations. Unless Ba-Ado-Mishram somehow started imitating the Stormfather, thus creating the Everstorm. That would be cool, if Ba-Ado-Mishram became the Everstorm's equivalent of the Stormfather, thus explaining why the Everstorm exists this time, and why that is the new source of Voidlight. Otherwise, I assume that Ba-Ado-Mishram just goes around refilling Fused with Voidlight. Her being the Everstorm would make her much more mobile though.

Good points all around.  I wonder what finding their way from Braize to Roshar fully entails.  And yeah, that makes sense that they store their Voidlight in their gemhearts.  We'll see how Venli uses Storm/Voidlight in the next book I assume. 

 

 

16 hours ago, Calthrop said:

Just a note to add to the conversation since I haven't seen it discussed much, the only time we see a Fused run out of voidlight in OB is when Rysn's larkin snacks on the one that tried to rob the Thaylen treasury in the interlude.  

Given that their supplies seems to far outmatch Radiants unless a highstorm is around or Dalinar is deus ex-ing a treasury full of spheres, this seems like a key tactic the Radiants will need to use in coming books.  Otherwise, handfuls of Fused can just play the attrition game and outlast whole groups of Radiants, as based on Kaladin's description of Dalinar charging his batteries it isn't something that can happen repeatedly.

I totally forgot about the Fused running out of Voidlight via the larkin.  That certainly depowers the Fused some.  And now I want to see a swarm of those just knock Fused out of the sky lol.

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14 hours ago, Brightlord Maelstrom said:

What I think is happening here is that the Spirits/Voidspren/Dead_Listeners have to find their way through from Braize to Roshar. So far only a couple hundred have done so, but you will eventually have thousands.

The reason they seem so OP right now, and wouldn't have in the past is that in the past the Heralds started refounding the Knights Radiant much sooner. By this part of the Desolation, you would already have dozens (if not hundreds) of Knights Radiants and potentially hundreds (if not thousands) of Squires. Not only that, but the Kingdoms of the World would have been united under the leadership of the Heralds and thus you would have a whole lot more resistance by the humans than you do in this one.

I agree with the gemhearts being part of why they can hold it for so much longer. And it might be that while the Voidsurges are less powerful, they also don't use up Investiture quite as fast. This might explain why none of them have run out yet.

As for the Everstorm being the source of Voidlight, I doubt it. For one thing, the Everstorm wasn't there in the past desolations. Unless Ba-Ado-Mishram somehow started imitating the Stormfather, thus creating the Everstorm. That would be cool, if Ba-Ado-Mishram became the Everstorm's equivalent of the Stormfather, thus explaining why the Everstorm exists this time, and why that is the new source of Voidlight. Otherwise, I assume that Ba-Ado-Mishram just goes around refilling Fused with Voidlight. Her being the Everstorm would make her much more mobile though.

A small correction: Bo-Ado-Mishram only supplied voidlight during the False Desolation, when Odium wasnt on Roshar supplying voidlight. It'd a good assumption he is doing so again in some manner.

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2 hours ago, DiamondMind said:

A small correction: Bo-Ado-Mishram only supplied voidlight during the False Desolation, when Odium wasnt on Roshar supplying voidlight. It'd a good assumption he is doing so again in some manner.

I'm assuming that once an Unmade learns how to do something, it wouldn't stop doing it unless it had good reasons.

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14 minutes ago, Brightlord Maelstrom said:

I'm assuming that once an Unmade learns how to do something, it wouldn't stop doing it unless it had good reasons.

Presumably she was captured and unable to do so anymore. I was just pointing out that she probably isn't currently supplying voidlight and Odium has resumed doing so as normal, unless she's been released again.

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20 hours ago, Calthrop said:

Just a note to add to the conversation since I haven't seen it discussed much, the only time we see a Fused run out of voidlight in OB is when Rysn's larkin snacks on the one that tried to rob the Thaylen treasury in the interlude.  

What about the one that Moash stabbed that failed to heal from the spear wound? He noted that Kaladin would have healed from something like that, and we've seen Fused heal at other points in Oathbringer, so did she just not have to ability, or was she out of Voidlight?

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1 minute ago, Exalted Dungeon Master said:

What about the one that Moash stabbed that failed to heal from the spear wound? He noted that Kaladin would have healed from something like that, and we've seen Fused heal at other points in Oathbringer, so did she just not have to ability, or was she out of Voidlight?

It's possible only Fused with Progression can heal themselves. Have we seen any non-carapace growing Fused healing? If voidlight is contained in the gemheart, maybe it can't automatically affect the rest of the body...

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This is something of a tangent, but it was mentioned above at some point that the Fused don't seem as good at using the Surges as Radiants. I think we're probably basing that on how the ones with Gravitation seen less nimble than Kaladin. The thing is, they practice with Gravitation all the time, and they've been doing it for waaaaaay longer than any current Radiant. I think that they just seem more clumsy because they are Connected to Braize, and the gravity is stronger there. They lurch around more because that's just how it works when gravity is that strong. Anyway, carry on--that's just something to consider.

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I may be wrong here but I seem to remember Szeth remarking that the Fused were much more skilled in the air than he was. Szeth is skilled with the basic lashing. The impression to me overall was that the Fused have used their abilities in countless fights over the millennia, but Voidbinding seems to be somewhat less dynamic than normal surgebinding. Didn't Kaladin notice in his fight with the fused in Shadesmar that they didn't seem to be able to fly with the same velocity that he could?

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32 minutes ago, Sprendiferous said:

I may be wrong here but I seem to remember Szeth remarking that the Fused were much more skilled in the air than he was. Szeth is skilled with the basic lashing. The impression to me overall was that the Fused have used their abilities in countless fights over the millennia, but Voidbinding seems to be somewhat less dynamic than normal surgebinding. Didn't Kaladin notice in his fight with the fused in Shadesmar that they didn't seem to be able to fly with the same velocity that he could?

I personally suspect that some of the aspects of Voidlight that make it not run out so much would also end up limiting how fast you can expend it. It just feels like the Voidbringers are just not quite at the same power level, but that this is because they don't burn Voidlight quite as fast.

Edited by Brightlord Maelstrom
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