[OB] [Silence Divine] Ashyn

[ZenBossanova]

We learn in Oathbringer that humans came from a different world. This could have been Yolen, but I think the evidence points to either Braize or Ashyn, two other planets in the Roshar System. 

Braize/Damnation does not sound like a nice place, even if we have few particulars about it. But we do at least have a reading from The Silence Divine, where Ashyn is described, from the viewpoint of one of the floating cities. 

https://youtu.be/a-Qq3Xhgw1I?t=3384

Quote

Outside on the balcony, the sky burned. It smoldered high above, deep red lines, the color of a serpent’s tongue, like rips in the air. The magma cast a warm red light across the city of [suigmaat]. As always the air smelled faintly of smoke, though he only noticed it when he was first stepping out of the building into the open air. He knew logically that the burning place he saw above was actually the ground. He knew [suigmaat] flew in the air, a city reversed, one of the few bastions of life left in the burning land. [Eelyell] was the one who was upside-down, as were all of the city’s inhabitants. It didn’t feel that way to him, he’d lived here too long. Upward was towards the burning ground and the land, downwards was toward the sky and the sun. Things he never saw except on the rare occasion he was called upon to visit the farms and orchards on the city’s sunward side.

[Eelyell] stood for a time, holding to the cast-iron railing, staring up at the burning swathes high above. Molten rivers, a land destroyed. A warning flag, raised to them all. Omnipresent. Undeniable. The city itself slept beneath that scarlet glare, bathed in red.

Transcription: @WeiryWriter  Thanks! 

[Dryone_2]

Looks like someone really messed around with gravitation and division on this planet. Skybreaker? 

[teknopathetic]

I would love to see Jansah or Rysn take a trip there to see what they can learn about Odium. Or even better, have Odium send yet another wave of refugees to Roshar for Dalinar to deal with. 

Edited November 26, 2017 by teknopathetic

[ZenBossanova]

Do we have any other descriptions of Ashyn? 

Or of Braize? 

From the Coppermind, I get:

Ashyn is mostly barren, with a few fertile patches.^[2] While there are humans inhabiting this planet, a global cataclysm at some point in the past has forced most of its inhabitants to live in floating cities in the sky^[5]. It currently has no shard.^[6][7]

The article on Braize just says:

Braize is, according to Khriss, cold and inhospitable. However, despite being too cold to support life, many spren live there. Braize is unlikely to get its own books, but scenes from The Stormlight Archive will be set on Braize.^{[Citation needed}

Edited November 28, 2017 by ZenBossanova

[EC11]

Ashyn (from the cataclysmic description) seems like the most likely one. The messed up landscape seems like the one to suffer from surges (rather than the cold) and Roshar would conceivably be easier to move too, and Braize is noted as too cold to support life. To my bad reasoning skills this makes Ashyn the most likely candidate.

[echaozh]

On 11/28/2017 at 11:31 AM, ZenBossanova said:

Do we have any other descriptions of Ashyn? 

Or of Braize? 

From the Coppermind, I get:

Ashyn is mostly barren, with a few fertile patches.^[2] While there are humans inhabiting this planet, a global cataclysm at some point in the past has forced most of its inhabitants to live in floating cities in the sky^[5]. It currently has no shard.^[6][7]

The article on Braize just says:

Braize is, according to Khriss, cold and inhospitable. However, despite being too cold to support life, many spren live there. Braize is unlikely to get its own books, but scenes from The Stormlight Archive will be set on Braize.^{[Citation needed}

The cataclysm on Ashyn may specifically be by the surgebinders. Maybe the spren from Braize was driven by Odium to Ashyn to bind the humans there, messed up with everything and traveled with them to Roshar.

[The Invested Beard]

We have confirmation the humans did indeed come from Ashyn:

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/174-oathbringer-portland-signing/#e8243

[Aleksiel]

Khriss talks about pockets of civilization on Ashyn in the Arcanum Unbound. I wonder if those are the people that will come from the origin according the legends mentioned in the book.

[AngelDeath]

Floating cities with reversed gravitation seams to be a way more advanced use of technology/investiture then anything else we've seen in the Cosmere. It also seams like they've bin there for a long time. Meaning that Ashyn is the most advanced (known) planet in the Cosmere. I wonder what that indicates.       

[Leyrann]

2 hours ago, Ookla the Beardspren said:

We have confirmation the humans did indeed come from Ashyn:

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/174-oathbringer-portland-signing/#e8243

That's unexpected. I'd have expected a RAFO on questions related to that.

[Bobby The Sheeth]

So with confirmation from Brandon that the humans that originally arrived on Roshar fled the cataclysm of Ashyn it paints an odd timeline. Correct me if I'm wrong on any of this.

Sometime long ago, there were humans on Ashyn and Odium was the shard on that world (?). At some point, a cataclysm happened and humanity fled to Roshar and were given the space known as Shinovar (Ashyn-->Shin) to live in. Then, eventually a human discovered Honor (The Girl Who Looked Up?). Honor liked the humans and the spren bonded with them. Also, at some point Odium shows up on Roshar.

Or maybe Odium wasn't originally on Ashyn with humans at all and he just kind of showed up at Roshar post Ashyn cataclysm...

I don't think that humans using Honor's power could have been the original voidbringers because of the nature of their oaths being tied to their abilities, so...

Original Voidbringers were humans infused with Voidlight from Odium(?) and they laid waste to the original Parshmen. Odium and original voidbringers kill Honor. Honor splinters into heralds and the Oathpact is created. 

But then that leaves even more questions like:

What is Honor's relationship to the original Parshmen?

At what point did the roles reverse so that Odium favors the Parsh?

What are the fused exactly and how do they persist beyond death?

How does Braize fit into all of this?

Did Honor or Odium arrive on Roshar first?

Too many questions...

Edited December 11, 2017 by Bobby The Sheeth

[aemetha]

1 hour ago, Bobby The Sheeth said:

Sometime long ago, there were humans on Ashyn and Odium was the shard on that world (?).

This isn't clear at all. There is some suggestion that Odium and the humans didn't arrive together, so much as at the same time, which would imply Odium wasn't the shard of Ashyn. I don't know that we have enough information to guess at Odium's involvement in the cataclysm on Ashyn.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/262-oathbringer-glasgow-signing/#e8808

Quote

Hoidonalsium [PENDING REVIEW]

What was the order of the Shards coming to Roshar and changing allegiences? Did Humans come with Odium?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

So... you're talking about on Roshar specifically? So, Odium had visited Roshar. The humans gave him more of an ear... The Dawnsingers would have considered him the god of the people who had come, but-- I mean, it wasn't like they necessarily brought him. He was capable of getting around before that. I mean, he did kinda come along with them, he was instrumental in what happened there.

Hoidonalsium [PENDING REVIEW]

Okay, but he was separate, and after Honor and Cultivation had really settled there?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Yes, he was after Honor and Cultivation had settled.

 

[Calderis]

1 hour ago, Bobby The Sheeth said:

Original Voidbringers were humans infused with Voidlight from Odium(?) and they laid waste to the original Parshmen. Odium and original voidbringers kill Honor. Honor splinters into heralds and the Oathpact is created. 

Honor did not die until after the Recreance. The Oathpact was made between him and the Heralds. It was not a product of his death. 

[Fatikis]

Human's coming from Ashyn makes Urithiru true fabrial purpose obvious.  Urithiru is a transport to and from Ashyn.

[Varion]

3 hours ago, Fatikis said:

Human's coming from Ashyn makes Urithiru true fabrial purpose obvious.  Urithiru is a transport to and from Ashyn.

That's a fun idea. You mean like an Oathgate? WoB has already ruled out the Urithiru is a spaceship theory. Can you imagine Kaladin and co. oath-porting to Ashyn and completely freaking out when they see a liquid magma sky?

To be honest though, I can't see amy way this is true. While we don't know when Urithiru was built, the best guess was after the Oathpact was broken, when the KR were at their height. By that time all memory and connection with Ashyn was forgotten or mythologised. 

It's still an open question how humans migrated from Ashyn to Roshar. Through the Cognitive Realm makes most sense, since we know that is possible, amd would have been open to people with surgebinding abilities, as they did. I'm still holding out hope for my theory that the Rosharin moons are old Ashyn spaceships though. 

[Weltall]

I am totally down with the 'that's no moon, it's an ancient spaceship' idea. Actually, the exact concept was used in an anime called Gun x Sword, which also had a population transplanted from another world, but so long ago that almost nobody remembered this, and Bad Things happened to the original world. We also know there's definitely something screwy going on with those moons. Throw in that Hoid tells a story involving them (for reasons Brandon Only Knows) and we've definitely got reasons to be suspicious of the things.

1 hour ago, Varion said:

To be honest though, I can't see amy way this is true. While we don't know when Urithiru was built, the best guess was after the Oathpact was broken, when the KR were at their height. By that time all memory and connection with Ashyn was forgotten or mythologised.

It must have been before that, though I don't know how long. The city existed before because one of Dalinar's visions (the 'Starfall' one) has the Radiant telling Dalinar to come to Urithiru for training, to prepare for the next Desolation which he thinks is coming soon. Implication, the cycle of Desolations is still going on and thus the Oathpact isn't broken yet. We also know that Nohadon walked to Urithiru but the Radiants didn't appear to exist as a formal institution at that time, even if surgebinders did. He also expects the Heralds to return, suggesting that he too thinks the Desolation cycle hasn't ended.

There's probably enough clues in the various visions and Navani/Jasnah's observations to make a more specific approximation of when the tower was built, but I don't have the books handy right now to dig through them.

Edited January 15, 2018 by Weltall

[RShara]

7 minutes ago, Weltall said:

I am totally down with the 'that's no moon, it's an ancient spaceship' idea.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/260-oathbringer-newcastle-signing/#e8762

Quote

JoeST [PENDING REVIEW]

Is Urithiru a spaceship?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

It is not, no, good question. I've never been asked that before. It's very Sim City, though.

JoeST [PENDING REVIEW]

It's a new theory, they're thinking, is it one of the floating cities from--

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

From Ashyn, yeah. Boy, that would be hard, it is so big. But, I suppose, magic, you know. But no, it is not...

 

[Weltall]

Well, if you really want to split hairs doesn't actually say you couldn't move something really big through space, just that Urithiru isn't one of the floating cities from Ashyn specifically. So the theory lives, for now.

[digitalbusker]

6 minutes ago, Weltall said:

Well, if you really want to split hairs doesn't actually say you couldn't move something really big through space, just that Urithiru isn't one of the floating cities from Ashyn specifically. So the theory lives, for now.

He clearly shot down the more general version of the theory before being presented with the specific one.

[Weltall]

Uh, I'm not seeing it. He shot down the idea that Urithiru is a spaceship but he doesn't explicitly shoot down the idea of other things being spaceships. And Brandon seems to have mastered the art of the Aes Sedai Truth, where he'll give a completely honest answer using exact words, except he'll be deliberately misleading in doing so.

Big spoiler for a non-Cosmere franchise

Spoiler

Like, say, being asked if The Dark Talent was going to be the final Alcatraz book and trying to always answer "it is the last book Alcatraz will write". Which is completely true... except for the bit he left out, which is that it won't be the final book in the series because Bastille will write the last one.

So unless I'm missing something in that WoB, you'll forgive me I hope for not taking it as a complete shooting down of the theory. Unless it's explicit (and preferably inscribed in metal) there's always going to be wiggle room.

[RShara]

Well, Urithiru is not a spaceship.  That's definitive

[digitalbusker]

42 minutes ago, Weltall said:

Uh, I'm not seeing it. He shot down the idea that Urithiru is a spaceship but he doesn't explicitly shoot down the idea of other things being spaceships.

Yeah, I just misread your post. I thought you were saying "Okay, Urithiru isn't one of the flying cities, but it might still be a spaceship." 

[Varion]

I first played with the idea of the Roasharin moons being old Ashyn spaceships in this thread:

We discussed the Urithiri WoB and the conclusion was that, while Urithiru was too big because it is effectively a landing rocket, size would be less of an issue if the ships were built in orbit around Ashyn, and then left in Rosharin orbit. If Ashyn had the technology at the time of their cataclysm to build flying cities, then interplanetary arks would be feasible. I still think a migration through the CR is more likely, but I'd love this to be true. Tbis cou

10 hours ago, Weltall said:

I am totally down with the 'that's no moon, it's an ancient spaceship' idea. Actually, the exact concept was used in an anime called Gun x Sword, which also had a population transplanted from another world, but so long ago that almost nobody remembered this, and Bad Things happened to the original world. We also know there's definitely something screwy going on with those moons. Throw in that Hoid tells a story involving them (for reasons Brandon Only Knows) and we've definitely got reasons to be suspicious of the things.

The original reference for this idea are the Chronicles of Pern by Anne McCaffery. Brandon has referenced her before as an early influence. Wonderful series if you haven't read them.

10 hours ago, Weltall said:

It must have been before that, though I don't know how long. The city existed before because one of Dalinar's visions (the 'Starfall' one) has the Radiant telling Dalinar to come to Urithiru for training, to prepare for the next Desolation which he thinks is coming soon. Implication, the cycle of Desolations is still going on and thus the Oathpact isn't broken yet. We also know that Nohadon walked to Urithiru but the Radiants didn't appear to exist as a formal institution at that time, even if surgebinders did. He also expects the Heralds to return, suggesting that he too thinks the Desolation cycle hasn't ended

Thanks for pointing this out @Weltall. I have to recalibrate my mental timeline. I originally assumed that Urithiru was created by a team of Radiants, directed by the Bondsmith bonded to the Sibling. I suppose this could still be true, just pre-Aharietham. 

[Leyrann]

37 minutes ago, Varion said:

If Ashyn had the technology at the time of their cataclysm to build flying cities, then interplanetary arks would be feasible.

I personally think that they were able to permanently change things with Surgebinding (as opposed to modern-day Surgebinding's temporary changes), and that they used that to build the flying cities.

[Weltall]

5 hours ago, Varion said:

The original reference for this idea are the Chronicles of Pern by Anne McCaffery. Brandon has referenced her before as an early influence. Wonderful series if you haven't read them.

I know of the books but haven't read them. Yet at least. Time to add them to the 'to do' list. xD