[OB] [BoM] [Emp's Soul] Spoilers - The Tranquiline Halls

[teknopathetic]

This is a thought dump for trying to figure out if Roshar Humans (some of the breeds) ever actually reincarnated in the Tranquiline Halls. We learned so much about spren-incarnation in OB, and I am left wondering if the Tranquiline Halls was just an idea stolen from Singers, or if humans once actually were utilizing reincarnation.  

Full Spoilers for all Cosmere Below: Specifically Emperor's Soul, Wax and Wayne Arc, and Oathbringer

Basically, I want to know which shard allows for reincarnation. Did Odium grant the power to the Singers once the Humans switched gods? Did cultivation give the power to the singers, and Odium corrupted it? Is reincarnation via spren or via soul a Comsere-wide possibility?  Here are some thing live noticed.

Ideas:

1. In the Wax and Wayne arc we learn that certain people working for Trell can "serve again in the next realm". So it is possible for humans to serve again in some manner, so the Tranquiline Halls could be that or something similar to that. Do humans serve as shadows, or is there a cognative realm battle going on, or do some talanted humans reincarnate in bodies using Spren-Magic, Breath Magic, Forging Magic, or Hemalurgic Magic?
           - did Shai reincarnate the emperor of the Rose Empire? Would something similar be effective in a war? Could we bring back someone that way? 

 

2. Since at least the beginning of the Oathpact, the singers could be reborn in a parshman. Eventually, the Oathpact stops the Singers from immediately re-spawning, and for a long time they were forced to live on in Damnation, waiting for their next desolation. It is unclear if spren-incarnation is something that Singers could do naturally before any shards arrived, or if they were invested by Odium, Honour, and or Cultivation at some point and given the ability. 
     - did the humans learn  this idea from the Singers and place it in their religious ideals.
  

3. At least some heritages of human were minions of Odium in the past. Odium must have granted them magic in some form. Did Odium allow humans to reincarnate on Ashyn/Braize in order to be more destructive? Which powers did humans have when they fled Ashyn/Braize for Roshar?
 

4. At least Ten Humans were given the power to reincarnate after a death. Who is copying whom with this magic? Did Odium originally have reincarnating humans, then the humans switched to team honour, Odium then reincarnates Singers, and then Ten Heralds then gain the ability to reincarnate as well? Or did the Singers reincarnate first and then the Heralds made a deal to copy the same process? 
   - It doesn't seem that humans need to steal someone else's body in order to reincarnate, so how do heralds do it? Is it fuelled by Odium, or another shard?

5. When the Stormvengers were in Shadesmaar, humans were dying near them, yet we never once saw a person pass between the Cognative realm onto the spiritual realm on Roshar. Sure, we didn't see anyone die next to a character, but you would think our heroes would have seen someone pass on. They did see candles go out, but no one noticed a spirit. Is this because Honour wasn't there to meet them, or is it because their spirits are going somewhere else? 

 

What do you think? Are the Tranquiline Halls real for the average Human?

    

 

 

 

Edited November 26, 2017 by teknopathetic

[Erinzard]

Good questions, I didn't even notice that people weren't popping into Shadesmar as they died but then again the Oathgate is a bit removed from most of the hottest areas of the battle. I never thought of what the Heralds do as reincarnation, but comparing that with the Singers I'd say you're right and that's exactly what's going on. 

In Mistborn: Secret History we learn that the more invested you are in the physical realm the longer you can stick around Shadesmar after you die, so maybe the Singers were super invested when it was just Honor and Cultivation on Roshar. This makes me wonder what came first, the Oathpact or the first desolation? 

As far as the Emperor in Emperor's Soul, I don't think Shai reincarnated him. His body remembered what it was like to be whole and she crafted amazingly realistic and probably memories into soul stamps that his spirit/body accepted. I don't know if she was replacing his cognitive self with a really good copy or if she actually restored his cognitive self but I don't think reincarnation plays into that one. 

[IllNsickly]

2 hours ago, Erinzard said:

 

As far as the Emperor in Emperor's Soul, I don't think Shai reincarnated him. His body remembered what it was like to be whole and she crafted amazingly realistic and probably memories into soul stamps that his spirit/body accepted. I don't know if she was replacing his cognitive self with a really good copy or if she actually restored his cognitive self but I don't think reincarnation plays into that one. 

But how strong was his Coginitve and Spiritual presence? 

If her Stamp was even the slimmest sliver of close to the Physical Reality, how far of a stretch would it be for His True S & C self to find the Self that she created?

[Erinzard]

On 11/25/2017 at 6:27 PM, IllNsickly said:

But how strong was his Coginitve and Spiritual presence? 

If her Stamp was even the slimmest sliver of close to the Physical Reality, how far of a stretch would it be for His True S & C self to find the Self that she created?

I'm not sure I understand your question. As I understand the situation, his Spiritual self was fine and his cognitive self was damaged to some degree as his physical self had a brain injury. But it hadn't been a very long time and maybe his brain being unable to grasp his own injured state was actually a benefit that prevented him from getting "used" to his new situation. So either Shai made a fake person that was really close to the real thing or she got SO close to the real thing that she actually just let his Spiritual and Cognitive selves connect back through to his physical self. Brandon is a sneaky guy, so maybe Shai really did something beyond normal soulstamping and that will be important for the Lifeless, Kelsier, or any number of other people who still have 2 out of 3 of their selves in newish/gently used condition around the Cosmere. But even if this is the case, I don't see that as reincarnation, more of a type of healing like what happened to Szeth because I don't think you can be reincarnated into your own body, I think that would be just....you being you? I don't know...

Sorry if I misunderstood and maybe we're arguing about the semantics of reincarnation here. 

[Urithiru]

Whatever the reasons, Shadesmar looks and works differently on Roshar than Scadrial. Beads, for starters. On Scadrial, it looks more like Wheel of Time’s tel’aran’rhiod. 

The OP got me thinking about the souls that have sided with Odium (or are “of” him) but don’t seem currently able to reincarnate: the golden Odium spren like the one that led the band of singers that picked up Kaladin. I forget if we have confirmation about the other Odium spren, but that one at least was described as looking like a Shin human. Throughout SA we keep meeting offworlders that Roshar humans think look Shin. Are these spren actually humans from Ashyn or Braize or wherever Roshar-humans came from? Were they once able to reincarnate but no longer? Since at least one of them seems to have guided Venli for years before the Fused were able to return to Roshar, they may be differently bound by the Oathpact. Were these the original human Voidbringers described by the ancient native singers? My guess is no because of the way they all seem to defer to the Fused as if they are older and more powerful. But that just raises other questions

[ScavellTane]

Quote

Odium smiled. “You will follow me, Turash, or I will reclaim that which gives you persistent life. I care not for the shape of the tool. Only that it cuts.”

The Ancient Singer's 'immortality' comes from Odium. I would say that the Listeners viewing them as gods is because they can technically be considered spren.

Quote

Hundreds upon hundreds of strange spren stood in the lake of beads that marked the shore of Thaylen City. They looked vaguely humanoid, though they were twisted and odd, like shimmering dark light. More the scribbled outlines of people, like drawings she’d done in a maddened state.

 

[Blazenella]

Quote

Hundreds upon hundreds of strange spren stood in the lake of beads that marked the shore of Thaylen City. They looked vaguely humanoid, though they were twisted and odd, like shimmering dark light. More the scribbled outlines of people, like drawings she’d done in a maddened state.

When I read this, my first thought was Amarams soldiers. We know the Fused are kind of select, seeing as the largest massing of them that we've seen is 12, and when they start to vanish from Shadesmar they re-appear in the physical realm with glowing red eyes (Shardic Influence)

[ScavellTane]

I'm not really sure they bonded Amarams soldiers, I think they just crossed over and now reside in the Everstorm.

[IllNsickly]

14 hours ago, Erinzard said:

 So either Shai made a fake person that was really close to the real thing or she got SO close to the real thing that she actually just let his Spiritual and Cognitive selves connect back through to his physical self.

Brandon is a sneaky guy, so maybe Shai really did something beyond normal soulstamping...

 

Semantics of reincarnation, I think.

[aemetha]

I don't think it's semantics of reincarnation. If I'm not mistaken (please correct me if I'm wrong @CalderisnewooklanamethatIcan'tfigureoutwhoiswho or someone similarly knowledgeable) when someone dies, they depart the spiritual realm for the beyond. For soulstamping to work the spiritual must exist. The physical wants to reflect the cognitive which wants to reflect the spiritual, which is why the soulstamp had to be so perfect - if it wasn't accurate then it wouldn't take. Anyway, the point is, if he existed in the spiritual and hadn't departed for the beyond, he wasn't dead and could not be reincarnated. If his cognitive existed beyond death he would be a cognitive shadow, but he wasn't invested so that isn't possible, and it isn't clear if a cognitive shadow is a real person or a cognitive copy of a person anyway.

Anyway - dead people go to the beyond, so if soulstamping worked he wasn't dead, and if he wasn't dead he wasn't reincarnated. At least, that's my understanding. Hopefully someone knowledgeable in realmatics can sort out my muddled thoughts here.

[Spoolofwhool]

37 minutes ago, aemetha said:

Anyway - dead people go to the beyond, so if soulstamping worked he wasn't dead, and if he wasn't dead he wasn't reincarnated. At least, that's my understanding. Hopefully someone knowledgeable in realmatics can sort out my muddled thoughts here.

Not entirely. His spiritweb could've been completely detached and his soul gone to the Beyond. However, the soulstamp could've still changed the soul of the body that they had, which was "alive" as it would've still had connection to the spiritweb within the spiritual realm. 

Personally, I think his soul had gone on, which is why the Resealing didn't heal him properly, as they could only restore the physical to a living state, but his other realmatic parts had gone one, and the soul stamp did create an imitation of the cognitive and spiritual which had been lost.