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ookla the aes sedai

Dominion, Devotion, and Sel: the Planet Ascends

33 posts in this topic

Ok, this theory might seem a little crazy, but if it turns out to actually be true, it would have a huge impact on the Cosmere!

so, starting off: Devotion and Dominion were splintered, and their power was moved into the Cognitive Realm. in the Arcanim Unbounded essay about Sel, it says:

Quote

I believe that the very landscape itself has become Invested to the point that it has a growing self-awareness, in a way unseen on other planets in the Cosmere. I do not know how this happened, or what the ramifications will be. 

 I've begun to wonder if something greater is happening on Sel than we, at Silverlight, have guessed. Something with origins lost in time.

Now, we have seen evidence that a self-aware Splinter could pick up a Shard, like [SH spoilers]

Spoiler

Kelsier did, but they would not have as much power over it as a person with ties to all three realms would.

Since Dominion and Devotion are already somewhat Reunited, they could potentially be picked up by a person, or a Seon, or a Skaze, or whatever. EXCEPT! this United Shard could already have been picked up, by the PLANET ITSELF(!), because it has ties to all three realms, enabling it to use the full power of the Shard, Connection to both of the shards, enabling it to pick it up easily, and a self-awareness, which could allow the Planet of Sel to choose for itself. 

This could be that something that might be happening on Sel that Khriss speculates about.

What do you guys think? Could it be true, or has the taint on Saidin affected me more than I think?

Edited by ookla the aes sedai
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I thought investiture, when left alone, gained sentience and consciousness except for Devotion and Dominion. That was why Odium stuffed them in the CR, so noone/thing could pick it up.

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21 minutes ago, john203 said:

I thought investiture, when left alone, gained sentience and consciousness except for Devotion and Dominion. That was why Odium stuffed them in the CR, so noone/thing could pick it up.

The concept is that because they were opposites, they would be forces in conflict, which would make it impossible, or at least extremely hard, for them to develop a consciousness. It might be worth mentioning that this is a huge amount of investiture, that it covers the entire CR of Sel, that the investiture is extremely hot, and that it has pretty much become a single thing: the Dor.

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22 hours ago, john203 said:

I thought investiture, when left alone, gained sentience and consciousness except for Devotion and Dominion. That was why Odium stuffed them in the CR, so noone/thing could pick it up.

I'm not so sure. I figure that if Khriss, a scholar of the cosmere thought that it was gaining self-awareness, then it is definitely a possibility, because she probably knows more about the cosmere than we do at this point. 

also, If the landscape has been Invested so much, then the Investiture has probably seeped into all three realms, because I don't think that you can Invest something on only one realm. Investiture can exist on only one realm, but I don't think that something could be Invested on only one realm, because if something is Invested, that will affect all aspects of it on all three realms, not just on one, but even if it did only affect one, the planet already has a soul, and the cognitive realm is where all of the thinking and sentience come from, because it is the realm of the mind, so it is still a possibility, I think...

not sure if any of that made sense... hope you guys can figure it out ok, because I probably won't be here later today to explain it. I'll probably be back tomorrow to explain better and answer any questions about my explanation. (although, it wasn't much of one, anyways.)

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Oathbringer Spoilers 

 

Spoiler

In oathbringer, Odium tells Mr T that he has left power behind after destroying a god, but that Odium is already seeing why that was a mistake. This is likely a reference to what Kriss has said about Sel, with the a slight possibility of this being a nod to Autonomy as well. 

 

Edited by teknopathetic
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@teknopathetic, Please use Spoilers tags. Also, what makes you think that? I'm not saying you're wrong, I just didn't see it.

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On 11/23/2017 at 4:44 PM, ethan_sedai said:

self-aware Splinter could pick up a Shard,

There's a distinction between a Cognitive Shadow and a Spren/Seon/Skaze/what-have-you, which could make all the difference.

Quote

Oudeis16

We've seen people Ascend. If it were in the position to do so, could Nightblood take up a Shard?

Brandon Sanderson

This is a RAFO, as I'm not specifically willing to comment on whether or not power that has become self-aware (Seons, Nightblood, Spren) can Ascend or not.


On 11/23/2017 at 5:02 PM, john203 said:

I thought investiture, when left alone, gained sentience and consciousness except for Devotion and Dominion. That was why Odium stuffed them in the CR, so noone/thing could pick it up.

Sentience is an option, but it's not a guarantee.

Quote

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, a Vessel for a Shard of Adonalsium can give up their power if they wish.

As for what would happen...well, there are some variables in there. Kind of like the variables in what happens to a bucket of water if you dump it out. Depends on where it falls, how strong the wind is, what the air is like.

Power dropped like this, if left alone, could end up Splintering and turning into something like spren/seons. It could become something more like the Stormfather--a large, self-aware entity. It could become something like the Dor or many of the Unmade--something proto-aware, but not truly an individual. There are other possibilities as well, depending on lots of factors. (Are sapient beings involved? what is being done with the power--is it concentrated in the Spiritual Realm as normal, or is it being pushed somewhere else?)

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On 11/24/2017 at 8:51 PM, The One Who Connects said:

There's a distinction between a Cognitive Shadow and a Spren/Seon/Skaze/what-have-you, which could make all the difference.

but wasn't this question asked before SH came out? that probably affected his answer, because it was coming out, but there still could be a difference. I'm not saying you're wrong, just that since we didn't know about what had happened in SH meant that he might not have answered because of the date that the question was asked. 

On 11/24/2017 at 8:51 PM, The One Who Connects said:

Sentience is an option, but it's not a guarantee.

I could be wrong, but if Khriss, a cosmere scholar who dedicated her in-world life to the study of the cosmere , thinks that it has grown sentience, then it probably has.

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3 hours ago, ethan_sedai said:

but wasn't this question asked before SH came out? that probably affected his answer, because it was coming out, but there still could be a difference. I'm not saying you're wrong, just that since we didn't know about what had happened in SH meant that he might not have answered because of the date that the question was asked.

Just keep this in mind: Spren/Seons/Type4s are self-aware splinters of a Shard. Cognitive Shadows are self-aware, but they aren't splinters.

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19 hours ago, ethan_sedai said:

but wasn't this question asked before SH came out?

A Cognitive Shadow is not "power that has become self-aware." That's the distinction which excludes Kelsier from the question regardless of when it was asked.

19 hours ago, ethan_sedai said:

I could be wrong, but if Khriss, a cosmere scholar who dedicated her in-world life to the study of the cosmere , thinks that it has grown sentience, then it probably has.

I'm not trying to contradict Khriss here. John203 stated that he thought sentience was always gonna happen. I provided a WoB showing that it isn't always gonna happen. Nothing more or less than that.

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7 hours ago, The One Who Connects said:

A Cognitive Shadow is not "power that has become self-aware." That's the distinction which excludes Kelsier from the question regardless of when it was asked.

Actually, if you look at where we find what a Cognitive Shadow actually is, according to the Threnodite system in Arcanum Unbounded, it says:

Quote

Much as the Spren of Roshar become self-aware over time because of people's focus on them being alive, this excess Investiture can attain the ability to remain sapient after being separated from its Physical form.

Locally they think of these things as ghosts, though really they are instantiations of self-aware (well, in this case, barely self-aware) Investiture.

So not only does Khriss compare both Spren and Cognitive Shadows, she also poitns out (indirectly) that both of them are really the same thing: bits of self-aware Investiture. or, to rephrase that, they from in different ways, but the end result is the same.)

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34 minutes ago, ethan_sedai said:

Actually, if you look at where we find what a Cognitive Shadow actually is, according to the Threnodite system in Arcanum Unbounded, it says:

Quote

Much as the Spren of Roshar become self-aware over time because of people's focus on them being alive, this excess Investiture can attain the ability to remain sapient after being separated from its Physical form.

Locally they think of these things as ghosts, though really they are instantiations of self-aware (well, in this case, barely self-aware) Investiture.

 

So not only does Khriss compare both Spren and Cognitive Shadows, she also poitns out (indirectly) that both of them are really the same thing: bits of self-aware Investiture. or, to rephrase that, they from in different ways, but the end result is the same.)

(Emphasis Mine)

2

Well, the Threnodite Shades aren't exactly all that similar to Kelsier are they? They seem to lose a lot of the memories and intelligence that they had before they died. And they become Shades through contact with other Shades. To me, this is almost saying that they aren't just Cognitive Shadows (or, like Kelsier, they would still essentially be the same person) so much as the remnant of the Cognitive Identity of a person, merged with the investiture of a Shard (which could be considered a Splinter.)

Now, I'm probably wrong on some of the details, but my general point is that the Shades aren't standard Cognitive Shadows. They seem to be more of Cognitive Shadows in the way the Stormfather is one (notice that he is also a splinter at the same time) than in the way Kelsier is one.

That last line especially seems to imply that Shades aren't actually Ghosts. Kelsier is definitely a ghost, however.

Also, the WoB mentioned specifically says "power that has become self-aware," which automatically cuts out Kelsier and most of the Cognitive Shadows. They were aware before they became Cognitive Shadows.

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53 minutes ago, Brightlord Maelstrom said:

Well, the Threnodite Shades aren't exactly all that similar to Kelsier are they? They seem to lose a lot of the memories and intelligence that they had before they died. And they become Shades through contact with other Shades. To me, this is almost saying that they aren't just Cognitive Shadows (or, like Kelsier, they would still essentially be the same person) so much as the remnant of the Cognitive Identity of a person, merged with the investiture of a Shard (which could be considered a Splinter.)

Now, I'm probably wrong on some of the details, but my general point is that the Shades aren't standard Cognitive Shadows. They seem to be more of Cognitive Shadows in the way the Stormfather is one (notice that he is also a splinter at the same time) than in the way Kelsier is one.

That last line especially seems to imply that Shades aren't actually Ghosts. Kelsier is definitely a ghost, however.

Also, the WoB mentioned specifically says "power that has become self-aware," which automatically cuts out Kelsier and most of the Cognitive Shadows. They were aware before they became Cognitive Shadows.

But what is the Realmatic difference between a Shade and Kelsier? they are both still in the Cognitive Realm only because of Investiture, and are Pretty much just leftover Investiture that was Imprinted on by a person Identity. 

what I'm trying to say is that if you build something by starting with Part A, then add part B, then the Result is the same as if you had started with part B and added part A. You guys are saying that "Investiture that has become self-aware" is much different than "a self-awareness that is now only Investiture." what I'm trying to say is that they're both just Self-aware Investiture, and so should act pretty much the same. Why would which one it is matter if they are so similar, and If I am missing something Realmatically, I would like an explanation of the Realmatics.

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2 hours ago, ethan_sedai said:

You guys are saying that "Investiture that has become self-aware" is much different than "a self-awareness that is now only Investiture." what I'm trying to say is that they're both just Self-aware Investiture, and so should act pretty much the same.

I disagree. I don't think that Kelsier was "a self-awareness that is now only investiture." I think he is a person who no longer has (or "had) a physical aspect. For one thing, he still would have a spiritual aspect: a spirit-web. As far as I can tell, the Physical Aspect is made of Matter, and the Cognitive Aspect is made of Investiture, however, that doesn't mean that any Investiture object will be equivalent to the Cognitive Aspect of a person. It would be like saying that apples and tanks are equivalent because they are both made of matter. Or a rock and a person.

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17 hours ago, Brightlord Maelstrom said:

I disagree. I don't think that Kelsier was "a self-awareness that is now only investiture." I think he is a person who no longer has (or "had) a physical aspect. For one thing, he still would have a spiritual aspect: a spirit-web. As far as I can tell, the Physical Aspect is made of Matter, and the Cognitive Aspect is made of Investiture, however, that doesn't mean that any Investiture object will be equivalent to the Cognitive Aspect of a person. It would be like saying that apples and tanks are equivalent because they are both made of matter. Or a rock and a person.

ok, I think that makes sense, but I'm pretty sure that a Spren has a Spiritweb, too (If a sentient robot has one, then a Spren should have one, too.) but I think I get what you're saying; that a Cognitive Shadow's Spiritweb would definitely be very different from a Spren's.

although I don't think that they're that different, probably the most different they could be is closer to the difference between aimian and a Parshendi (a smaller difference than a tank and an apple, but still large enough of a difference to keep us from being sure until someone actually asks Brandon) 

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41 minutes ago, ethan_sedai said:

ok, I think that makes sense, but I'm pretty sure that a Spren has a Spiritweb, too (If a sentient robot has one, then a Spren should have one, too.) but I think I get what you're saying; that a Cognitive Shadow's Spiritweb would definitely be very different from a Spren's.

although I don't think that they're that different, probably the most different they could be is closer to the difference between aimian and a Parshendi (a smaller difference than a tank and an apple, but still large enough of a difference to keep us from being sure until someone actually asks Brandon) 

At the same time, there is a difference between the gap from Cognitive Shadow to Seon and the gap from Cognitive Shadow to windspren.

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I just found some evidence that points towards you guys being right: the Ire probably would have had full power over Preservation, unlike Kelsier, even though both are just Self-aware Investiture. So, different instances of Self-aware Investiture would act differently when picking up a Shard. 

Now we are back to "maybe it could work. We should ask Brandon sometime."

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39 minutes ago, ookla the aes sedai said:

I just found some evidence that points towards you guys being right: the Ire probably would have had full power over Preservation, unlike Kelsier, even though both are just Self-aware Investiture. So, different instances of Self-aware Investiture would act differently when picking up a Shard.

Have I misread, or are you implying that Elantrians are "self-aware investiture?" Because Elantrians don't die during the Shaod.

Quote

Khyrindor
You've said that Returned count as Cognitive shadows "stapled" back into their bodies, and that the Heralds are at least similar. Would I be right in assuming that Elantrians could be considered as Cognitive Shadows as well, or am I barking up the wrong tree?

Brandon Sanderson
Elantrians are something different. They don't actually "die" to be created.

They are still living people with a physical aspect and everything, just wandering the Cognitive Realm like Khriss/Nazh do.

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sorry, that was a bit vague. what I meant is that because they still have a physical aspect, (yes, I know they aren't dead) they would interact differently with a Shard, but because they are in the Cognitive Realm, this physical aspect is now Investiture, even though it is still there. 

here is a WoB that I hope helps explain:

Quote

Bromo_Sapien

When somebody travels into the cognitive realm, what happens to their physical self? To their body? Like Elsecalling or through a Shardpool?

Brandon Sanderson

Um, well it depends on the way they’re doing it. The two ways you’ve mentioned transport the physical body. It’s actually creating a rift and slipping them through. But there are other ways that you kind of peek in, where you’re body’s saying it’s a little more astral projection-y in those cases.

Bromo_Sapien

So their physical self would also be in the cognitive realm?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Bromo_Sapien

Okay.

Brandon Sanderson

Which is weird.

Bromo_Sapien

Yeah.

Brandon Sanderson

But yes, um...

Bromo_Sapien

As opposed to somebody like Kelsier who died and no longer has a physical self.

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, right. Or when Shallan is soulcasting and peeking in, and things like this. Like… Um… It can still be dangerous, because what’s happening is that little soul bubble there that’s manifesting into a version of your soul and then things can get at it in different ways and stuff. So... But yes, going in physically means you just pop between realms, and yeah, yeah…

Bromo_Sapien

And when they leave the cognitive realm their physical self just leaves the cognitive realm the same...

Brandon Sanderson

Yep, mhm, yep.

Bromo_Sapien

Perfect.

Brandon Sanderson

Basically you’re transferring into investiture and popping out of investiture, so...

so you are transfering into Investiture, so you are Investiture, I think

Edit: (now that I look at that, I might have misinterpreted)

Edited by ookla the aes sedai
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@ookla the aes sedai I think he means the investiture stage is only in the transition.

 Basically you’re (physical body) transferring into investiture (to travel to cognitive) and popping out of investiture (back to physical form, but in the cognitive), so...

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yeah, I probably misinterpreted that. It was probably just the first thing my mind went to, because It's hard for me to wrap my mind around it still being physical matter, but it isn't physical. 

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On 11/24/2017 at 7:51 PM, The One Who Connects said:

There's a distinction between a Cognitive Shadow and a Spren/Seon/Skaze/what-have-you, which could make all the difference.

There's Another WoB that makes me think that this just flat out not possible.

Quote

Questioner

What happens when a... spren picks up a Shard?

Brandon Sanderson

What do you mean picks up a Shard? Shardblade or Shard of Adonalsium?

Questioner

Picks up a Shard of Adonalsium.

Brandon Sanderson

A spren is a Shard of Adonalsium so it just--

Questioner

Picks up one of the big ones like could a spren do the same thing that Kelsier's spirit did after he--

Brandon Sanderson

*hesitantly* It's like you're asking if electricity can gain a charge of electricity and get electrified. Does that make sense? I mean-- It's a question that doesn't make a lot of sense.

If a shard were to somehow-- They would just combine into a bigger shard and get larger-- if that makes sense?

Questioner

The foundation of that question was I thought that maybe the Stormfather spren was basically doing what Kelsier's spirit did.

Brandon Sanderson

Oh, um *sighs* Not really... It's really a not really There's some similarities but it's a not really. It's not quite a RAFO though. more of a--

Questioner

More of a "doesn't quite work that way".

Brandon Sanderson

--doesn't quite work that way but you're thinking along the right lines?

 

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22 hours ago, Ookla, the Incalculable said:

There's Another WoB that makes me think that this just flat out not possible.

so we know now that the different kinds of self-aware Investiture definitely act differently, and since this isn't a spren, it still might be possible. but thanks, though, for finding that! (now we can stop arguing over whether or not it will work because of differences or similarities between Cognitive Shadows and Spren,) 

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1 hour ago, ookla the aes sedai said:

so we know now that the different kinds of self-aware Investiture definitely act differently, and since this isn't a spren, it still might be possible. but thanks, though, for finding that! (now we can stop arguing over whether or not it will work because of differences or similarities between Cognitive Shadows and Spren,) 

A Splinter is a Splinter. If it's sentient/sapient investiture, which is a Splinter, it would be called a spren on Roshar. 

It would suffer the same issue. 

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On 12/1/2017 at 6:56 PM, Ookla, the Incalculable said:

There's Another WoB that makes me think that this just flat out not possible.

I do remember reading that in the past, but I wasn't exactly sure what was going on at some points. I'm not a fan of using WoBs that I don't fully understand. It looks a bit clearer upon reflection, and I'm somewhat inclined to agree with you.

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