[OB] simple loophole for Taravangian

[RappaR]

Well, we had first book with bigger view of diagram and in the end it turns out, that it anyway doesn't matter. I am kinda disappointed, that Sanderson wanted to show it as utterly hopeless and that genius Taravangian has only big ego. So here is a thought - it was repeatly said, that stupid Taravangian isn't allowed to make decision and therefore his deal with Odium isn't binding. 

I really hope for some more of diagram, not just another tool for Odium. 

[IndigoAjah]

I mean, T could just break any deal anyway...

[+Hoiditthroughthegrapevine]

Taravangian asked for the capacity to stop what was coming and for the capacity to save humankind. I think that his actions might be unwittingly serving the forces of the greater good. Take for instance his sending the Assassin in white to try and kill Dalinar Kholin. Every piece in motion is part of a larger whole, without that directive, Kaladin most likely wouldn't have sworn the 3rd ideal. Also, Szeth wouldn't have found his external framework of justice without having seen Dalinar, and hence he wouldn't have brought Nightblood to the battle of Thaylena Field, and the Drop of Honor wouldn't have been recovered in time to imprison the thrill. All things are connected, and though T thinks he has some agency in the playing out of his boon of saving humanity and stopping the Desolation, my feeling is that he is going to continue to act in a utilitarian fashion, moving pieces to achieve his ends without realizing that the pieces he has moved are ultimately going to end up doing something totally different than what he expects them too. He will most likely have more blood on his hands before the front 5 books are done, but he will also have unwittingly helped out Dalinar and Co through his intrinsically reprehensible actions. His attempts to achieve his limited aims will end helping the efforts of achieving the greater good.

[Calderis]

38 minutes ago, hoiditthroughthegrapevine said:

Taravangian asked for the capacity to stop what was coming and for the capacity to save humankind. I think that his actions might be unwittingly serving the forces of the greater good. Take for instance his sending the Assassin in white to try and kill Dalinar Kholin. Every piece in motion is part of a larger whole, without that directive, Kaladin most likely wouldn't have sworn the 3rd ideal. Also, Szeth wouldn't have found his external framework of justice without having seen Dalinar, and hence he wouldn't have brought Nightblood to the battle of Thaylena Field, and the Drop of Honor wouldn't have been recovered in time to imprison the thrill. All things are connected, and though T thinks he has some agency in the playing out of his boon of saving humanity and stopping the Desolation, my feeling is that he is going to continue to act in a utilitarian fashion, moving pieces to achieve his ends without realizing that the pieces he has moved are ultimately going to end up doing something totally different than what he expects them too. He will most likely have more blood on his hands before the front 5 books are done, but he will also have unwittingly helped out Dalinar and Co through his intrinsically reprehensible actions. His attempts to achieve his limited aims will end helping the efforts of achieving the greater good.

This. And it's not even his doing. 

I have said from the beginning that The Diagram is the work of Cultivation. It reeks of her intent. Strengthen the whole through aggressive pruning and directed growth. 

Every move that Taravangian has made has inadvertently played into Dalinar's hand. The world, and the state that it was in at the beginning of Oathbringer, was a direct result of the Diagram. This made Dalinar's coalition possible. 

Releasing the multiple damaging pieces of information to kill the coalition made the events of Thaylen field possible. 

Add in that meeting with Odium... Odium is convinced that Taravangian accomplished the Diagram on his own. He had the words of the Diagram on the walls of the vision before him, and yet some of the parts, including the pieces that gave Taravangian the words to say, were hidden. 

There is nothing that can convince me that that is not the work of another shard. 

Cultivation used Dalinar's boon to shape him to be a Radiant to overcome being Odium's Champion. I have no doubt she's doing something similar with Taravangian. 

[+Hoiditthroughthegrapevine]

39 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Cultivation used Dalinar's boon to shape him to be a Radiant to overcome being Odium's Champion. I have no doubt she's doing something similar with Taravangian. 

Totally agree, perhaps the vacillation in intelligence is the continuous agency of Cultivation, the means of assuring that Taravangian acts in the fashion that Cultivation wants him to. Some situations it is important for him to be an empathetic figure head, some situations it's important for him to alter the course of the Diagram drastically to achieve a particular aim. We know that cultivation, like Odium is gifted with future vision, so it's highly likely that she is playing a long term hand with Mr. T acting as her trump card.

[aemetha]

Does anyone else find the turn of phrase he used a little odd? In particular the word "capacity".

Quote

Give me the capacity to save us.

Capacity doesn't just mean the ability to produce or contain a thing, it can also refer to a particular role. "In his capacity as king" for example.

What if the diagram has nothing to do with the mechanics of saving them whatsoever, and it's simply a case that a person acting in their capacity as king of the world is best positioned to save them?

I mean, there's a rule about the asking of magic wishes isn't there? Be careful what you wish for Mr T.

[kaellok]

1 hour ago, aemetha said:

Does anyone else find the turn of phrase he used a little odd? In particular the word "capacity".

Capacity doesn't just mean the ability to produce or contain a thing, it can also refer to a particular role. "In his capacity as king" for example.

What if the diagram has nothing to do with the mechanics of saving them whatsoever, and it's simply a case that a person acting in their capacity as king of the world is best positioned to save them?

I mean, there's a rule about the asking of magic wishes isn't there? Be careful what you wish for Mr T.

I do not think that I had ever considered 'capacity' in that way in regards to Mr T, and it is certainly worth a very careful look.

However, we know that Cultivation/The Nightwatcher gives out boons and curses based on what they feel like giving people, not based on what was asked for.  ("You ask a boon.  She gives what she feels you deserve, then gives you a curse to go along with it."  Way of Kings, Interlude 7, p. 709 hardcover edition.)

[Awesomness]

I wonder how Moash´s arc ties with this... He left Bridge 4 for the Diagram, then ended up with the Singers and now he has de Honorblade T. stole.  

[Reborn radiant]

As for Diagram is not just a tool for Odium from now on, 

 

I really, really, really like the theory that Diagram is going to backstab odium. That diagram was written intentionally in such a way that it would make Odium make wrong decisions, intentionally mislead Odium. What if we don't have Heralds, and an established Knights radiant already? A knife in the back - Diagram in this case - can just as easily take down Odium in my opinion. 

[Xavien]

Don't forget the other person we know who has potentially met Cultivation: Lift.  Lift tells Dalinar that he smells like 'her' which both thought meant the Nightwatcher but Dalinar's gift came directly from Cultivation.

[Rainier]

11 hours ago, hoiditthroughthegrapevine said:

I think that his actions might be unwittingly serving the forces of the greater good.

This is exactly what I'm seeing, and it's only clear at the end of book 3, but as you mentioned examples from books 1 and 2 support it. Taravangian is blind to his own plans, and we all know it. I'd expect him to continue to undermine our main characters, but for his actions to promote growth and development without dooming the world. That doesn't mean it will be bloodless, and I'm still scared shitless over his Releaser. She's the wild card in his hand.

Edited November 21, 2017 by Rainier

[Erunion]

Absolutely agree with @Calderis and @hoiditthroughthegrapevine. 

Cultivation is playing a long-con against Odium and using Mr. T as a pawn in that game, a pawn that doesn’t know his own role. 

It’s possible, probable even, that she’s got better future sight than Odium (‘Cultivation’ requires fantastic foresight to do well, and she’s been consistently shown to do it well. I love her motif of pruning. She’s such a gardener). 

In addition to that, another interesting facet is that cultivation aligned Spren seem to be more eager to bond than Honour aligned Spren (until Dalinar bonded the Stormfather) or unaligned Spren. 

Did you notice how many truth watchers we’ve seen on screen? 3 at least. More than any other order except lightweavers and wind runners - and wind runners have squires, and of the 3 lightweavers (who are already more cultivation aligned) we have Elhokar who died and Hoid who snagged his Spren.

 

My bet is that Mother cultivation is gonna be our sneaky gardener ally through this all. 

(Also note how the West, Her dominion, was more peaceful as of Kaladins WOK storm-flyover). 

[aemetha]

I'm unwilling to commit to the idea of cultivation being a master puppeteer behind the scenes. We have seen that Shards can do this kind of thing in the past, but I think the mistake that is continually made with regard to shards is that we focus on their strengths without considering their weaknesses. While Cultivation may have foreseen an opportunity to use Taravangian as a pawn, the possibility exists that she foresaw no desirable outcomes but had to accede to his request regardless because her intent requires her to help him grow as she herself says in the flashback with Dalinar.

So yeah, I'm not sold on it. I really don't see any shard as being "capable" in general, they don't have free will.