Fifth of Daybreak Posted November 21, 2017 Report Share Posted November 21, 2017 (edited) 3 minutes ago, Leyrann said: That's literally the WoB I linked to four posts earlier lol. I just edited it lol. I tried seven times to find your post before posting that to give you credit I swear! I finished the edit as you posted. The time stamp will back me up, your hyperlinking genius made me into a fool. I've never been able to get that to work right. I'm sorry. Edited November 21, 2017 by Fifth of Daybreak Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leyrann Posted November 21, 2017 Report Share Posted November 21, 2017 3 minutes ago, Fifth of Daybreak said: I just edited it lol. I tried seven times to find your post before posting that to give you credit I swear! I finished the edit as you posted. The time stamp will back me up, your hyperlinking genius made me into a fool. I've never been able to get that to work right On PC, you need to select the text and then use the option just right of the "crossing out" option and just left of the "quote" option, you then get a popup where you have to paste the link. On mobile I have no idea because I never post (or even read) on mobile. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fifth of Daybreak Posted November 21, 2017 Report Share Posted November 21, 2017 Thanks, I'm sorry. I feel like a total jerk and rightfully so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tetrisash Posted November 21, 2017 Report Share Posted November 21, 2017 I take the "we" being Odium and Rayse, or possibly just Odium and an unknown identity. The "you" referring to Honor. Odium was pissed/shocked when Dalinar was taking up part of Honor's power. Referring to Adonalsium or Evi just doesn't fit right with me at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paladin Brewer Posted November 21, 2017 Report Share Posted November 21, 2017 (edited) Kind of related but do we know the Stormfather is an spren from honor or cultivation? He's super old and I "thought" there prior to the Shards arrival, so is there not a chance he's an Adonalsium spren + Honor's cognitive shadow = Unity. Edited November 21, 2017 by Paladin Brewer 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoser Posted November 21, 2017 Author Report Share Posted November 21, 2017 I updated the OP to include some of your brilliant input and provide other context. Thanks! Please continue. I will continue to update the OP if it seems helpful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marianmi Posted November 22, 2017 Report Share Posted November 22, 2017 (edited) Just to add one more: we = odium + autonomy shards you = unity shard where unity shard would be the best opposition to autonomy , odium helped bavadin kill it Edited November 22, 2017 by marianmi 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fifth of Daybreak Posted November 22, 2017 Report Share Posted November 22, 2017 (edited) On 11/20/2017 at 3:25 AM, hoser said: I assume that the voice is Evi and she has lingered somehow, rather than traveling beyond. But does Odium even know about the communication between what I presume to be Evi and Dalinar? Why would Odium focus on a long-dead pawn in the face of a presence of something that sees him as small that he is apparently unwilling to face? In context, wouldn't Odium be addressing what's in front of him? Dalinar connected all three realms. The spiritual realm is 'beyond,' (This is not true, see below) and Odium's power is mostly centered there. He's also about as close to the perpendicularity as anyone else there. Odium is focused in her because she is actively ruining his plan. In the context of the scene, Evi is more in front of him than Honor or Adonalsium, as her voice is present in the scene, making her consciousness present. Honor and Adonalsium, while their power is present, aren't in the scene as far as consciousness in concerned. Only Dalinar. He addresses himself as 'Unity' but his viewpoint is still from Dalinar. Edited November 22, 2017 by Fifth of Daybreak Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The One Who Connects Posted November 22, 2017 Report Share Posted November 22, 2017 12 minutes ago, Fifth of Daybreak said: The spiritual realm is 'beyond,' Quote Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) It's important to note that the Spiritual Realm is not the Beyond. Source. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fifth of Daybreak Posted November 22, 2017 Report Share Posted November 22, 2017 2 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said: It's important to note that the Spiritual Realm is not the Beyond. Oh wow! Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paragrin Posted November 22, 2017 Report Share Posted November 22, 2017 I find myself convinced by the "we (Odium and Dalinar) killed you (Evi)" theory because it explains why Odium is so shocked -- it's by her forgiveness. He made Dalinar kill her, she should hate him, that's what his plan was based on. He might have foreseen Dalinar reaching the Spiritual Realm, and making contact with her, and if she hated him it would help break Dalinar down even further. Rayse fell into the trap of assuming everyone would react emotionally the same way he would, and he hates. The shock isn't "how could you be here", it's "why would you do that". If he has any understanding of forgiveness left, it's in a very abstract way; he doesn't grok it. Sidenote: this might also explain why Renarin couldn't see Jasnah prioritizing family over security. If seeing the future is of Odium, it might carry the same preconceptions. (If Odium even suspected a traitor in his ranks, he would come down with extreme prejudice. Be careful, Venli...) 12 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seloun Posted November 22, 2017 Report Share Posted November 22, 2017 Given what we know, I'd have to go with the obvious solution, though I think 'we' is probably very inclusive (probably including humankind in general). I have to assume the 'you' refers to Dalinar in some sense, since the quote continues as: Quote “No!” Odium screamed. He stepped forward. “No, we killed you. WE KILLED YOU!” Dalinar stood within a pillar of light and spinning gloryspren, one hand to each side, clutching the realms that made up reality. Forgiven. The pain he’d so recently insisted that he would keep started to fade away on its own. These Words … are accepted, the Stormfather said, sounding stunned. How? What have you done? Odium stumbled back. “Kill him! Attack him!” Sanderson, Brandon. Oathbringer: Book Three of the Stormlight Archive (p. 1139). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. Odium certainly seems to be referring to Dalinar when he says 'kill him', and the text doesn't seem to indicate that Odium's focus has shifted between the lines (it's clear Odium's attention is rather focused here). I don't think it's necessary to proscribe a deep meaning to 'we', either - when people were united it seems like Honor was able to deal with Odium pretty handily, so I think it's natural for Odium to say 'we' killed Honor. On 11/20/2017 at 5:11 AM, Stephen Lightheart said: I got the impression that Dalinar didn't just create a perpendicularity at will, but rather, the Highstorm is Honor's perpendicularity (which would explain why it comes with an unlimited charge of stormlight) and Dalinar channeled the Highstorm through his bond with the SF. The Stormfather describes how he restores Stormlight in exactly the same terms the Perpendicularity is created: Quote Honor’s power, during a storm, is concentrated in one place, the Stormfather said. It pierces all three realms and brings Physical, Cognitive, and Spiritual together momentarily in one. The gemstones, exposed to the wonder of the Spiritual Realm, are lit by the infinite power there. Sanderson, Brandon. Oathbringer: Book Three of the Stormlight Archive (p. 639). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. I'm not sure that Dalinar is summoning the Perpendicularity in the storm so much as creating a new one (that's what the description certainly sounds like). But the original Honor's Perpendicularity is probably the storm, which is why it's considered to be unreliable: Quote “There’s supposedly another perpendicularity,” Azure said. “It’s unpredictable and dangerous, and appears randomly in different places. My guides warned against trying to hunt it.” Sanderson, Brandon. Oathbringer: Book Three of the Stormlight Archive (p. 886). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dros Posted November 23, 2017 Report Share Posted November 23, 2017 (edited) I'm thinking mirianme might have the right of it here....though Shards aren't killed per se, they are splintered. The Shardbearer can be killed, and I would assume Odium knows the Shardbearers. Saying He and Bavadin killed Unity or Honor wouldn't really make sense. And it's unlikely he mistook Dalinar for Tanavast. Or....maybe Unity showed up somewhere it shouldn't have? Maybe Odium was so surprised he used imprecise language and he did mean he and Bavadin killed Tanavast/Honor. Maybe with Tanavast that Shard is Honor, with Dalinar, it's Unity. Edited November 23, 2017 by Dros For clarity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoser Posted November 24, 2017 Author Report Share Posted November 24, 2017 Rereading showed support for Crimson Not Blood's theory. Removed questions about it and added textual support to the OP quotes. Added mirianme's theory. I've been wrong so often, I will not add some reflexive doubts. Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DocHoliday Posted November 25, 2017 Report Share Posted November 25, 2017 I'm here to rock the Evi boat a bit. Odium to Mr. T: Dalinar has Ascended. With that in mind: We is Odium and maybe one other. Could be a royal usage of "we" but I find that unlikely from his speech patterns. "You" is Honor. Not Tanavast, but the Shard Honor. Yes I'm aware of the Splintering, but as soon as Dalinar pulled the granddaddy of Last Claps, Odium left the field because "Dalinar can now challenge You (Odium) to a fight." And the God FLED. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fifth of Daybreak Posted November 25, 2017 Report Share Posted November 25, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, DocHoliday said: Odium to Mr. T: Dalinar has Ascended. The direct quote is "Dalinar was not supposed to Ascend." His reasoning behind saying that is because of how flawed Dalinar is because of his work with the Thrill, and especially Evi's death. That's the lever he uses to pull at Dalinar. I'm especially enamored with what Paragrin had to say on it. On 11/21/2017 at 9:41 PM, Paragrin said: it explains why Odium is so shocked -- it's by her forgiveness. He made Dalinar kill her, she should hate him, that's what his plan was based on. He might have foreseen Dalinar reaching the Spiritual Realm, and making contact with her, and if she hated him it would help break Dalinar down even further. Rayse fell into the trap of assuming everyone would react emotionally the same way he would, and he hates. The shock isn't "how could you be here", it's "why would you do that". If he has any understanding of forgiveness left, it's in a very abstract way; he doesn't grok it. There's no reason Odium should be shocked by Dalinar picking up a Shard. He doesn't say Dalinar shouldn't be able to Ascend, and he only killed Tanavast, he didn't splinter him. We know that the only splinters of Honor were created intentionally. This means it's not at all comparable to what he did to Aona and Skai, and he should not be that surprised at someone Ascending, having done so himself. "Honor" can't be killed if you're seperating this from killing Tanavast. Energy cannot be created or destroyed. It can be splintered, but Odium did not do that. Quote Questioner Seons are Splinters? Brandon Sanderson Yes. Splinters of Devotion. Questioner Um, Splintered...Honor is the *inaudible*...the stormwall... Brandon Sanderson The Stormfather? Questioner The Stormfather. Brandon Sanderson The Stormfather is technically a Splinter of Honor, but it was an intentional Splinter, that Honor did himself. Questioner Does he have another Splinter? Brandon Sanderson So, all of the honorspren are Splinters of Honor, but this is a different situation because he actually did this intentionally. 3 3 He was obviously aware of the possibility and prepared for it extensively, trying instead to subvert Dalinar to his side during what would have been Dalinar's moment of Ascension. The lever he chose to make that attack was Evi's death. The whole scene is about how Dalinar's life was Odium and Dalinar hand in hand, and especially when it comes to Evi's death. Spoiler tag for length, my bolding and commentary in parentheticals added. Spoiler “No,” Dalinar whispered again, voice ragged as the Thrill thrummed inside of him. “No. You are wrong.” Odium gripped Dalinar’s shoulder. “What does she say?” She? He heard Evi crying. Screaming. Begging for her life as the flames took her. “Don’t blame yourself,” Odium said as Dalinar winced. “I made you kill her, Dalinar. I caused all of this. Do you remember? I can help. Here.” Memories flooded Dalinar’s mind, a devastating onslaught of images. He lived them all in detail, somehow squeezed into a moment, the Thrill raging inside of him. He saw himself stab a poor soldier in the back. A young man trying to crawl to safety, crying for his mother … “I was with you then,” Odium said. He killed a far better man than himself, a highlord who had held Teleb’s loyalty. Dalinar knocked him to the ground, then slammed a poleaxe into his chest. “I was with you then.” Dalinar fought atop a strange rock formation, facing another man who knew the Thrill. Dalinar dropped him to the ground with burning eyes, and called it a mercy. “I was with you then.” He raged at Gavilar, anger and lust rising as twin emotions. He broke a man in a tavern, frustrated that he’d been held back from enjoying the fight. He fought on the borders of Jah Keved, laughing, corpses littering the ground. He remembered every moment of the carnage. He felt each death like a spike driven into his soul. He began to weep for the destruction. “It’s what you needed to do, Dalinar,” Odium said. “You made a better kingdom!” “So … much … pain.” “Blame me, Dalinar. It wasn’t you! You saw red when you did those things! It was my fault. Accept that. You don’t have to hurt.” Dalinar blinked, meeting Odium’s eyes. “Let me have the pain, Dalinar,” Odium said. “Give it to me, and never feel guilty again.” “No.” Dalinar hugged The Way of Kings close. “No. I can’t.” “Oh, Dalinar. What does she say?” No … “Have you forgotten? Here, let me help.” And he was back in that day. The day he killed Evi. Sanderson, Brandon. Oathbringer: Book Three of the Stormlight Archive (pp. 1123-1124). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. --- He ordered the oil brought. He turned toward a city where Evi was imprisoned, where children slept, where innocent people hid and prayed and burned glyphwards and wept. “Please…” Dalinar whispered in Thaylen City. “Don’t make me live it again.” “Oh, Dalinar,” Odium said. “You will live it again and again until you let go. You can’t carry this burden. Please, give it to me. I drove you to do this. It wasn’t your fault.” Sanderson, Brandon. Oathbringer: Book Three of the Stormlight Archive (p. 1128). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. --- Dalinar fell to his knees. A few gloryspren swirled around him, but Odium batted them away, and they faded. [Odium aware of Dalinar's possible Ascension and fighting it in the laziest way possible. The Syl method.] In the back of his mind, the Stormfather wept. He saw himself step up to where Evi was imprisoned. That tomb in the rock. Dalinar tried to look away, but the vision was everywhere. He didn’t merely see it, he lived it. He ordered Evi’s death, and listened to her screams. “Please…” Odium wasn’t done with him. Dalinar had to watch the city burn, hear the children die. He gritted his teeth, groaning in agony. Before, his pains had driven him to drink. There was no drink now. Just the Thrill. He had always craved it. The Thrill had made him live. Without it … he’d … he’d been dead.… He slumped, bowing his head, listening to the tears of a woman who had believed in him. He’d never deserved her. The Stormfather’s weeping faded as Odium somehow shoved the spren away, separating them. [More pre-emtpive actions to stop him from his impending Ascension and prepare him to become the Champion.] That left Dalinar alone. “So alone…” “You’re not alone, Dalinar,” Odium said, going down on one knee beside him. “I’m here. I’ve always been here.” [Dalinar+Odium=We Odium has always been with him] The Thrill boiled within. And Dalinar knew. He knew he’d always been a fraud. He was the same as Amaram. He had an honest reputation, but was a murderer on the inside. A destroyer. A child killer. “Let go,” Odium whispered. Dalinar squeezed his eyes shut, trembling, hands tense as he hunched over and clawed the ground. It hurt so badly. To know that he’d failed them. Navani, Adolin, Elhokar, Gavilar. He couldn’t live with this. He couldn’t live with her tears! “Give it to me,” Odium pled. Sanderson, Brandon. Oathbringer: Book Three of the Stormlight Archive (pp. 1129-1130). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. --- Meridas held up the gemstone, inspecting it, then glanced toward Dalinar Kholin. “So, you’ve been speaking to him all this time too?” “Even longer than I’ve been speaking to you.” [He's always been there] “Can I kill him?” “Someday, assuming I don’t let him kill you.” Odium rested his hand on the shoulder of the huddled Dalinar Kholin. “It’s done, Dalinar. The pain has passed. Stand up and claim the station you were born to obtain.” [He's separated Dalinar from the Stormfather and applied the lever chosen to break him, he's not supposed to Ascend, he's supposed to give in and become Odium's Champion. The surprising thing isn't Dalinar's ability to Ascend, it's that the plan failed.] Sanderson, Brandon. Oathbringer: Book Three of the Stormlight Archive (p. 1130). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. --- He closed his eyes, breathing out, listening to a sudden stillness. And within it a simple, quiet voice. A woman’s voice, so familiar to him. I forgive you. [Evi is the most recent dead person to interact in the scene and the only one who was killed by multiple characters present.] Dalinar opened his eyes, and knew what the parshwoman saw in him. Swirling clouds, glowing light, thunder and lightning. “I am Unity.” [It's worth noting here that he's not addressing Odium, but Venli, in response to her question.] He slammed both hands together. And combined three realms into one. Sanderson, Brandon. Oathbringer: Book Three of the Stormlight Archive (p. 1136). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. --- “No!” Odium screamed. He stepped forward. “No, we killed you. WE KILLED YOU!” Dalinar stood within a pillar of light and spinning gloryspren, one hand to each side, clutching the realms that made up reality. Forgiven. The pain he’d so recently insisted that he would keep started to fade away on its own. [The plan failed because of the forgiveness.] Sanderson, Brandon. Oathbringer: Book Three of the Stormlight Archive (p. 1139). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. 6 Odium still addresses Dalinar as Dailnar. If he was referring to him as anything else,I might be more convinced. Especially if it was something along the lines of "Unity was not supposed to Ascend." The most cogent explanation that uses on-screen evidence for this is Evi. Edited November 25, 2017 by Fifth of Daybreak 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy92 Posted November 25, 2017 Report Share Posted November 25, 2017 My gut reaction when I first read this scene was that Odium was referring to Honor's death. Dalinar grabbed so much of Honor's remaining power, that the Shard was beginning to reform. The confusing part is the use of "we," but that could be referring to a few different things. Odium + Rayse, Odium + another Shard, Odium + mankind turning their backs on Honor... But I do think the exchange is referring to Honor's death, not Adonalsium or Evi. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoser Posted November 25, 2017 Author Report Share Posted November 25, 2017 2 hours ago, Fifth of Daybreak said: ... We know that the only splinters of Honor were created intentionally. ... Not only do I not know this, but I don't believe that it is true. Consider: Quote Eric Hohnbaum Who provoked the confrontation, Tanavast or Rayse? Brandon Sanderson RAFO. Quote Little Wilson And then Splintered would be more like... You mentioned that Honor kind of Splintered himself off to create the spren before-- Isaac Stewart Oh, and that's mentioned isn't it? Brandon Sanderson Right, but you've got to keep in mind that-- um... So in Scadrial, Ruin and Preservation did the same thing. Their bodies are part of the world. They-- if their exist-- like, the things on the Spiritual Realm don't matter where they are in relation to each other and things like this. All those <piece> spren are still Honor, when he was alive. Does that make sense? Like, yes those are little Splinters of Honor, but they are still Honor. It's not like he's diminished, because his whole essence is the world, right? There is no diminishing that. And so that thing is we're talking about the fracturing of the mind and the killing of the Shard. That's the distinction between whole and not whole as I was making it for you there. #shards #splintering #splinters Quote Valhalla (paraphrased) Did Odium Splinter all the Shards for the same reason? Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) No. Some Shards he Splintered because he feared the Shard itself, and some Shards he targeted because he feared the Vessel. He was working his way down his list in order of the Shards and Vessels he felt would be most dangerous to his plans until he got stuck on Roshar. Quote FirstSelector Was Cultivation close enough to when Odium got Honor, to know how to fight back? Brandon Sanderson Heheheheh. I would say yes. Quote Axies (paraphrased) You told us Odium broke 4 Shards. Can you talk about the 4th one? Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) I can say that you've seen, maybe not in Spain, but American fans have seen, the effects of that. You'll see something about it on Arcanum Unbounded. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FuzzyWordsmith Posted November 25, 2017 Report Share Posted November 25, 2017 4 hours ago, hoser said: Quote FirstSelector Was Cultivation close enough to when Odium got Honor, to know how to fight back? Brandon Sanderson Heheheheh. I would say yes. So, uh, that particular WoB made me think of something. (Link is here for the full one: https://wob.coppermind.net/events/36-arcanum-unbounded-chicago-signing/#e1555) The way Brandon responded, and the we. I have had this nagging feeling for a while, but this seems to solidify it. Did Cultivation help Rayse kill Tanavast? Because we know Tanavast was growing increasingly erratic near the end. We know that Rayse was already bound for a while before Tanavast was killed. We know Cultivation is willing to "prune" things not conducive to growth. I think it might be possible that because she thought Tanavast was doing more harm than good, she helped Rayse kill him. That would make him saying "We killed you" make a lot more sense if referring to Honor. 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fifth of Daybreak Posted November 25, 2017 Report Share Posted November 25, 2017 (edited) 6 hours ago, hoser said: Not only do I not know this, but I don't believe that it is true. Consider: None of those contradict the WoB I posted where Brandon literally, when asked if there are any splinters of Honor, says the only ones are the Stormfather and the Honorspren and that Honor made them intentionally. I don't understand how you can not believe something to be true when I have provided the source material to back it up and you have provided nothing that contradicts it. I'll post it again. Quote Questioner Seons are Splinters? Brandon Sanderson Yes. Splinters of Devotion. Questioner Um, Splintered...Honor is the *inaudible*...the stormwall... Brandon Sanderson The Stormfather? Questioner The Stormfather. Brandon Sanderson The Stormfather is technically a Splinter of Honor, but it was an intentional Splinter, that Honor did himself. Questioner Does he have another Splinter? Brandon Sanderson So, all of the honorspren are Splinters of Honor, but this is a different situation because he actually did this intentionally. It also concerns me that you posted only half of a WoB when the other half seems to contradict your point and support mine. Why did you choose to only include that portion of the question? Quote Little Wilson You mentioned that half(-ish) Shards are whole at-- during Shadows of Self. Is that counting Splinters? Brandon Sanderson Okay, one more time. Little Wilson You mentioned that half-- like I think it was at the Bands of Mourning release party-- you said that "half-ish Shards are whole" during Shadows of Self. Brandon Sanderson "Half-ish Shards are whole?" Little Wilson Yeah, you didn't want to do the math, because it was-- *interrupted* Brandon Sanderson Oh, I get it. You're saying-- Okay, so I'm sorry. I'm trying to think of Shards that are half-powered. That's not what you're saying. Half of the existing Shards. Little Wilson Yes, yes. Brandon Sanderson Okay, got it. Yeah. Little Wilson And does that-- is that counting Splinters? Splintered Shards? Brandon Sanderson Um, no. I mean, a-- Splintered is one of the ways that they are not considered whole. Zas678 Like completely Splintered as in Dominion and Devotion. Brandon Sanderson Yeah. That's what-- That's the opposite of whole. Zas678 But having a Splinter, like Endowment... Little Wilson Because I-- I was kind of going with "Shattered" <and> "Splintered". So Shattered would be kind of what I was going with Devotion and Dominion. Brandon Sanderson Okay. Little Wilson And then Splintered would be more like... You mentioned that Honor kind of Splintered himself off to create the spren before-- Isaac Stewart Oh, and that's mentioned isn't it? Brandon Sanderson Right, but you've got to keep in mind that-- um... So in Scadrial, Ruin and Preservation did the same thing. Their bodies are part of the world. They-- if their exist-- like, the things on the Spiritual Realm don't matter where they are in relation to each other and things like this. All those <piece> spren are still Honor, when he was alive. Does that make sense? Like, yes those are little Splinters of Honor, but they are still Honor. It's not like he's diminished, because his whole essence is the world, right? There is no diminishing that. And so that thing is we're talking about the fracturing of the mind and the killing of the Shard. That's the distinction between whole and not whole as I was making it for you there. So it's even mention earlier in the post that Devotion and Dominion we're shattered and not splintered, then, in a distinctly separate description, Brandon doesn't correct that distinction and then talks about Honor's intentional splinters and how they parallel Ruin and Preservation without diminishing the integrity of the shard. He then mentions how he was talking about the fracturing of the mind and killing of a Shard, which we know can happen without actually splintering a shards power. It is very alarming to me when I'm provided out of context quotes that don't say what I'm being led to believe they are saying in their full context. Especially when it comes to WoB, please refrain from significantly changing the nature of a quote by leaving large portions of it out your post when referencing it. I also don't buy that anyone else killed Honor with him. We get all of our information on Honor's death straight from the source. Honor doesn't say "they killed me," he says "Odium has killed me." If we assume that multiple shards we're involved in his death, we contradict the only source of information we have on Honor's death. Quote “I am … I was … God. The one you call the Almighty, the creator of mankind.” The figure closed his eyes. “And now I am dead. Odium has killed me. I am sorry.” WoK Chapter 75 In the Top Room Edit: Did some more digging. We have absolutely no reason to think Odium should have been surprised by Dalinar taking up Honor's splinters. He tells us that he saw it coming. Quote “A man cannot serve two gods at once, Dalinar,” Odium said. “And so, I cannot leave her behind. In fact, I cannot leave behind the Splinters of Honor, as I once thought I could. I can already see that going wrong. Once you release me, my transformation of this realm will be substantial.” 57 Passion It also should be obvious to him that it's possible to ascend because he didn't take the same precautions with Honor as he did with Devotion and Dominion. Quote Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) Odium locked the Selish Shards in the Cognitive Realm to keep them from achieving sentience or someone Ascending Edited November 25, 2017 by Fifth of Daybreak 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoser Posted November 25, 2017 Author Report Share Posted November 25, 2017 2 hours ago, Fifth of Daybreak said: None of those contradict the WoB I posted where Brandon literally, when asked if there are any splinters of Honor, says the only ones are the Stormfather and the Honorspren and that Honor made them intentionally. Because, as I read it, that isn't what the WoB says. My interpretation is that Brandon says that the Stormfather and the honorspren are deliberate splinters, but he doesn't say that there aren't any unintentional splinters. Per this WoB, there can still be unintentional splinters. He doesn't say, as you seem to misinterpret, that "the only ones are the Stormfather ..." So, on the question of unintentional splinters, that WoB, despite your claims, seems to be a nothingburger. I don't understand how you can not believe something to be true when I have provided the source material to back it up and you have provided nothing that contradicts it. I'll post it again. I don't believe it says what you think it says. I ignore it because it isn't relevant. It also concerns me that you posted only half of a WoB when the other half seems to contradict your point and support mine. Why did you choose to only include that portion of the question? See above So it's even mention earlier in the post that Devotion and Dominion we're shattered and not splintered, then, in a distinctly separate description, Brandon doesn't correct that distinction and then talks about Honor's intentional splinters and how they parallel Ruin and Preservation without diminishing the integrity of the shard. He then mentions how he was talking about the fracturing of the mind and killing of a Shard, which we know can happen without actually splintering a shards power. That is a long quote that is not clear. When you need a paragraph to explain the quote and part of your deductive chain is "Brandon doesn't correct ...," I think you are running the risk of overinterpreting. There are some interesting questions here: "can a Shard be killed without splintering it?" and "Did Odium splinter Honor involuntarily?" The problem I have here is that this quote is not very useful. Brandon has terminology: Adonalsium was Shattered into Shards and Shards can be involuntarily splintered as a form of disruption. It's confusing because Shards can voluntarily splinter themselves. For example, the Unmade may be splinters of Odium or the Nightwatcher or Wyndle may be splinters of Cultivation. In this quote, Little Wilson seems to just be scrambling the terms and maybe Brandon is saying something about killing without Splintering or maybe he is just trying to avoid confusion. I can't tell. But neither of these quotes seem to me to say what you claim they do. It is very alarming to me when I'm provided out of context quotes that don't say what I'm being led to believe they are saying in their full context. Especially when it comes to WoB, please refrain from significantly changing the nature of a quote by leaving large portions of it out your post when referencing it. Between these quotes and your claim about what the "beyond" is above, I wonder about your degree of assertiveness and your ability to interpret quotes accurately. It seems to me that you will cause yourself "alarm" that I am not responsible for. One person's context is different than another's. I am not responsible for putting whatever irrelevant or unclear quotes you think are relevant in my discussions. My goal is to use the relevant WoB concisely without distortion. I am not perfect, of course, but in this instance, I don't agree with your interpretations. I think that my use of quotes is fine and I flatly reject your assertion that I have "significantly changed the nature of a quote..." I also don't buy that anyone else killed Honor with him. We get all of our information on Honor's death straight from the source. Honor doesn't say "they killed me," he says "Odium has killed me." If we assume that multiple shards we're involved in his death, we contradict the only source of information we have on Honor's death. Edit: Did some more digging. We have absolutely no reason to think Odium should have been surprised by Dalinar taking up Honor's splinters. He tells us that he saw it coming. It also should be obvious to him that it's possible to ascend because he didn't take the same precautions with Honor as he did with Devotion and Dominion. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fifth of Daybreak Posted November 25, 2017 Report Share Posted November 25, 2017 (edited) 40 minutes ago, hoser said: So, on the question of unintentional splinters, that WoB, despite your claims, seems to be a nothingburger. When asked if Honor has another splinter, directly correlated to splinters of Devotion/Dominion (Not sure which they are, not as versed with selish theory) he offered specific information and stated they were intentional splinters. If you want to interpret that as him leaving it open ended, I find that hard to believe. He provided information beyond the scope of the specific question. I don't see any reason for him to have wiggled out of the question. Had he simply answered 'yes' I would agree. 40 minutes ago, hoser said: I don't believe it says what you think it says. I ignore it because it isn't relevant If you think the points and the arguments I make aren't relevant, please articulate the reasons why. You did not do that until I challenged you further. 40 minutes ago, hoser said: can a Shard be killed without splintering it?" Yes, Mistborn spoilers Spoiler Vin killing Ruin 40 minutes ago, hoser said: Did Odium splinter Honor involuntarily?" We have no evidence Odium splintered Honor, and all evidence shows that the only splinters of Honor we know about were created by Honor intentionally. 40 minutes ago, hoser said: The problem I have here is that this quote is not very useful. Yet you quoted the end of it without quoting the earlier context of the conversation. If it's not useful earlier, why is that ending part useful? 40 minutes ago, hoser said: Brandon has terminology: Adonalsium was Shattered into Shards and Shards can be involuntarily splintered as a form of disruption. It's confusing because Shards can voluntarily splinter themselves. For example, the Unmade may be splinters of Odium or the Nightwatcher or Wyndle may be splinters of Cultivation. The unmade are splinters of Odium Quote WeiryWriter Are the Unmade Splinters of Odium? Brandon Sanderson Yes. Good guess. It should not be confusing because I have provided proof that all of Honor's splinters we know of were created intentionally, something you said you ignored because you didn't think it's relevant. 40 minutes ago, hoser said: In this quote, Little Wilson seems to just be scrambling the terms and maybe Brandon is saying something about killing without Splintering or maybe he is just trying to avoid confusion. I can't tell. But neither of these quotes seem to me to say what you claim they do. Are you arguing that Honor is diminished? That seems pretty self-evident from the WoB that Honor isn't diminished by his splinters. Please articulate what about my interpretation you disagree with. 40 minutes ago, hoser said: Between these quotes and your claim about what the "beyond" is above, I wonder about your degree of assertiveness and your ability to interpret quotes accurately. I provided no evidence for the 'beyond' claim, I have provided evidence here. This ad hominem attack is beneath our discussion. Please attack my evidence and not my character. 40 minutes ago, hoser said: It seems to me that you will cause yourself "alarm" that I am not responsible for. One person's context is different than another's. I am not responsible for putting whatever irrelevant or unclear quotes you think are relevant in my discussions. My goal is to use the relevant WoB concisely without distortion. I am not perfect, of course, but in this instance, I don't agree with your interpretations. I think that my use of quotes is fine and I flatly reject your assertion that I have "significantly changed the nature of a quote..." I think it can be universally agree that you should not cut off words of Brandon mid conversation. Especially in this instance, when the earlier parts of the questions directly reference topics that are in this discussion, as Devotion and Dominion both are central points in my arguments and were both in that WoB. It was also directly about splinters. It is not unreasonable for me to ask you to include the full quote when it comes to WoB. If this were a book quote, I would not be so stringent, but there is no excuse for cutting off a WoB mid-quote, especially when it is obviously topical. If you would like, at some point, to stop ignoring my actual arguments and evidence and resume discussion on the topic, I would be interested in your opinion on the further evidence I have provided, such as Odium locking Devotion and Dominion in the cognitive realm to prevent Ascension, as well as him directly telling Dalinar that he realizes his mistake in leaving Honor's splinters alone. Edited November 25, 2017 by Fifth of Daybreak Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoser Posted November 25, 2017 Author Report Share Posted November 25, 2017 28 minutes ago, Fifth of Daybreak said: When asked if Honor has another splinter, directly correlated to splinters of Devotion/Dominion (Not sure which they are, not as versed with selish theory) he offered specific information and stated they were intentional splinters. If you want to interpret that as him leaving it open ended, I find that hard to believe. He provided information beyond the scope of the specific question. I don't see any reason for him to have wiggled out of the question. Had he simply answered 'yes' I would agree. It's very simple. You say that Brandon "says the only ones are the Stormfather and the Honorspren..." This is simply not part of the quote. The "only" (my emphasis) part is not supported. Based on that quote, it is open-ended. You have chosen to interpret it as definitive. It isn't. But your interpreting it as definitive is objective data about your ability to interpret quotes. Nothing ad hominem about it. I have been to signings and watched the questionings. There are choices that he has to make about which lines of inquiry to pursue and he also deliberately chooses to leave certain things unclear. While you may find it hard to believe and accuse him of wiggling out of the question, I don't see it that way. He spoke to the question and chose to clarify that the Stormfather and honorspren are deliberate splinters that don't lead him to consider Honor less than whole. At the signing I went to, there was a long line of people wanting to interact and he was very generous with his time, but even if he had wanted to, he could not have pursued every line of response. The quote does not say or even imply "only." That doesn't mean that there are unintentional splinters, just that the quote is not definitive for answering the question. You are free to quote it to your heart's content and make arguments about how the things that he says imply certain other things that he doesn't say, but that doesn't bind me to include the entirety of these quotes that seem partially irrelevant to me. 28 minutes ago, Fifth of Daybreak said: If you think the points and the arguments I make aren't relevant, please articulate the reasons why. You did not do that until I challenged you further. Um, no. In my first comment, before, I explained that your interpretation of "only" is unsupported by the quote. Without the "only" part, the early part of the quote is irrelevant. That was before you challenged me further. 28 minutes ago, Fifth of Daybreak said: Yes, Mistborn spoilers Hide contents Vin killing Ruin That's not the answer to the question I was asking. In that instance, the vessel died, but the Shard wasn't changed. I was asking about Shards. 28 minutes ago, Fifth of Daybreak said: We have no evidence Odium splintered Honor, and all evidence shows that the only splinters of Honor we know about were created by Honor intentionally. Not true. Consider the quotes I offered above. In the first quote, we know that Tanavast and Rayse had a confrontation. While confrontation could mean a variety of things, one possible interpretation is that the confrontation was where Odium splintered Honor. In the second quote, the end of the quote that you insist that I quote entirely, there is something relevant: Honor's voluntary splinters are not what causes the Shard to not be considered whole. I assume that we agree that Honor is not whole? In the third quote, it is implicit that all the Shards that Odium killed were Splintered. In combination with the above point, this is evidence that Odium splintered Honor. In the fourth quote, there is an implication that Odium "got" Honor, and they may have fought. In the fifth quote, we seem to have acceptance that Odium broke 4 Shards. Honor is broken and has been in conflict with Odium. We also know about Devotion, Dominion and Ambition. If Honor isn't the fourth Shard that Odium broke, then what is? Consider also: Questioner Quote Did the shattering [Splintering] of Honor happen in the Cognitive Realm, and Ruin in the Physical? *Brandon laughs* The reason I'm wondering is, are spren the expression of the shattering in the Cognitive Realm while Ruin's physical being is an expression of the shattering in the Physical? Brandon Sanderson This is an interesting theory that I don't want to completely shoot down, but it is not heading in absolutely correct directions. The shattering of a shard is an event that transcends all three Realms. Quote Viper (paraphrased) Question about timelines—Was Honor splintered BEFORE or AFTER the Day of Recreance? Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) You know, I'm going to RAFO that for now. Quote Questioner Spren bonds: there was some intimation somewhere that I read that there might not have been spren bonds before [Aharietiam, the day the Desolations ended]? Brandon Sanderson I'm not going to answer that one either but we will delve much more into this. The spren were around back then but they were not nearly what they are now: they've changed over the course of the book obviously. I think the cosmere theorists have figured it out. They are much more prevalent following Honor and what happened to him, but there were some spren on the planet before even that happened. Footnote: It seems that Brandon is referring to the Expulsion and/or the arrival of Honor on Roshar, not Aharietiam #rafo-plus I find lots of evidence, but I don't find the clarity in it. The terminology is confusing and the WoB can be ambiguous. I believe that Odium "splintered" honor, but I can't prove it. You seem convinced otherwise, but the evidence you have offered is not as definitive as you represent. 28 minutes ago, Fifth of Daybreak said: Yet you quoted the end of it without quoting the earlier context of the conversation. If it's not useful earlier, why is that ending part useful? explained above 28 minutes ago, Fifth of Daybreak said: The unmade are splinters of Odium So okay, fine. It's nice that we can agree on something. 28 minutes ago, Fifth of Daybreak said: It should not be confusing because I have provided proof that all of Honor's splinters we know of were created intentionally, something you said you ignored because you didn't think it's relevant. Your "proof" is not supported by the evidence. We know that Honor and other Shards created Splinters voluntarily. It isn't relevant to whether Odium splintered Honor and whether involuntary splinters of Honor were created in the process. 28 minutes ago, Fifth of Daybreak said: Are you arguing that Honor is diminished? That seems pretty self-evident from the WoB that Honor isn't diminished by his splinters. Please articulate what about my interpretation you disagree with. I am sure the Shard Honor is not whole. I think we agree that he is not diminished by his voluntary splinters (Stormfather and honorspren for sure, maybe Honorblades). I think that he is splintered based on the quotes I've read, but I don't feel that I have proven it. As I said in the previous post Quote He doesn't say, as you seem to misinterpret, that "the only ones are the Stormfather ..." I think it is an obvious articulation of what I am disagreeing with. Likewise, when I say, Quote In this quote, Little Wilson seems to just be scrambling the terms and maybe Brandon is saying something about killing without Splintering or maybe he is just trying to avoid confusion. I can't tell. But neither of these quotes seem to me to say what you claim they do. I have articulated my disagreement. So I don't understand what you are asking for. You offered two quotes as evidence. I think it a matter of clear fact that they don't clearly state what you claim. 28 minutes ago, Fifth of Daybreak said: I provided no evidence for the 'beyond' claim, I have provided evidence here. This ad hominem attack is beneath our discussion. Please attack my evidence and not my character. This was in response to the below paragraph, which I did not consider helpful. While I attempted to not attack you personally, I do not like that part of my response and would like to apologize for it, rather than defend it. Quote It is very alarming to me when I'm provided out of context quotes that don't say what I'm being led to believe they are saying in their full context. Especially when it comes to WoB, please refrain from significantly changing the nature of a quote by leaving large portions of it out your post when referencing it. You are welcome to quote whatever you want. I reject your demand that you decide what I quote or not. I think I have adequately explained why I use the quotes that I do. I am content with that. Quote 28 minutes ago, Fifth of Daybreak said: I think it can be universally agree that you should not cut off words of Brandon mid conversation. Especially in this instance, when the earlier parts of the questions directly reference topics that are in this discussion, as Devotion and Dominion both are central points in my arguments and were both in that WoB. It was also directly about splinters. It is not unreasonable for me to ask you to include the full quote when it comes to WoB. If this were a book quote, I would not be so stringent, but there is no excuse for cutting off a WoB mid-quote, especially when it is obviously topical. This is another unhelpful paragraph. I do not agree. I think it turns a mutual search for understanding into a right/wrong situation of spiraling defensiveness. I want to learn from you, but I have explained multiple times that your interpretation of "only" is not supported by the quote. If you won't listen and just repeat your demand that you control how I make my arguments, I don't find that respectful. Saying "universally agree" and "no excuse" does not help. 28 minutes ago, Fifth of Daybreak said: If you would like, at some point, to stop ignoring my actual arguments and evidence and resume discussion on the topic, I would be interested in your opinion on the further evidence I have provided, such as Odium locking Devotion and Dominion in the cognitive realm to prevent Ascension, as well as him directly telling Dalinar that he realizes his mistake in leaving Honor's splinters alone. Um, I have been addressing your evidence, which undermines your insufficiently supported assertions. I claim that my discussion has been generally on point. When you claim that I have been "ignoring my actual arguments and evidence," I don't know how to respond constructively. I want to have a constructive discussion where I learn from you and I agree that your further evidence deserves discussion, but I fear that we have gotten off track. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fifth of Daybreak Posted November 25, 2017 Report Share Posted November 25, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, hoser said: It's very simple. You say that Brandon "says the only ones are the Stormfather and the Honorspren..." This is simply not part of the quote. The "only" (my emphasis) part is not supported. Based on that quote, it is open-ended. You have chosen to interpret it as definitive. It isn't. Yes, and if you had articulated that in your first post, which is what I asked you to do in my reply to your post where your only statement was "I disagree, consider." Had you been specific in you reply initially, I would have agreed with you that it's not definitive, even as I stand by my interpretation. If you would care to look at my last reply, it is evident that I have, in fact, internalized your criticism and softened that word choice. 1 hour ago, hoser said: But your interpreting it as definitive is objective data about your ability to interpret quotes. Nothing ad hominem about it. While I don't agree with your chain of logic here, you apologize below for the statement in question the ad hominem originally refers to, so I don't want to drag this down further. Thank you for the apology, I accept. 1 hour ago, hoser said: Um, no. In my first comment, before, I explained that your interpretation of "only" is unsupported by the quote. Without the "only" part, the early part of the quote is irrelevant. That was before you challenged me further Incorrect. This is the only explanation you provided: 15 hours ago, hoser said: Not only do I not know this, but I don't believe that it is true. Consider: Had you been more specific in your disagreement, I would have agreed with you right away that my wording was too harsh, and backed it down, as I did in my previous post once I understood the nature of your disagreement. 1 hour ago, hoser said: In the first quote, we know that Tanavast and Rayse had a confrontation. While confrontation could mean a variety of things, one possible interpretation is that the confrontation was where Odium splintered Honor. Personal interpretation is not hard evidence. 1 hour ago, hoser said: Honor's voluntary splinters are not what causes the Shard to not be considered whole. I assume that we agree that Honor is not whole? Brandon specified in that quote those splinters would not cause Honor to be considered incomplete when he was alive, which is why the first part is relevant. The entire paragraph is why I don't understand how it can relate to your point, when it seems to back up mine. My entire thesis is that we know Honor was not splintered by Odium in the same way Devotion and Dominion were. This WoB makes the distinction that the Splinters of Honor, when he was alive, do not make him less whole. His splinters are entirely removed from whether or not his mind is fractured, which is the criteria Brandon is using for whether or not a Shard can be considered whole, context we would not know without the entire WoB. 1 hour ago, hoser said: In the third quote, it is implicit that all the Shards that Odium killed were Splintered. In combination with the above point, this is evidence that Odium splintered Honor. This is as implicit as my "only" is implicit. In fact "he was working his way down the list...until he got stuck on Roshar" can actually be interpreted as he Splintered Shards up until he went to Roshar. This is not definitive in any way, it is personal interpretation. 1 hour ago, hoser said: In the fourth quote, there is an implication that Odium "got" Honor, and they may have fought. Which is evidence that Honor died, as he said, not that he was splintered. 1 hour ago, hoser said: In the fifth quote, we seem to have acceptance that Odium broke 4 Shards. Honor is broken and has been in conflict with Odium. We also know about Devotion, Dominion and Ambition. If Honor isn't the fourth Shard that Odium broke, then what is? Broken is not Splintered. This is not evidence of splinters of Honor beyond those we have seen, nor is it evidence Odium splintered Honir. As I said, we have no evidence that Odium has splintered Honor, only speculation, and all evidence we have shows that the only Splinters of Honor were made by him intentionally. 1 hour ago, hoser said: I find lots of evidence, but I don't find the clarity in it. The terminology is confusing and the WoB can be ambiguous. I believe that Odium "splintered" honor, but I can't prove it. You seem convinced otherwise, but the evidence you have offered is not as definitive as you represent. The hard evidence, the WoB that aren't ambiguous, are all pointing a certain way. Brandon even says in that first one that it is not heading in absolute correct directions before saying that the shattering of a shard transcends all three realms. I'm interpreting that as the not correct directions is that Honor and Ruin weren't shattered or splintered. 1 hour ago, hoser said: Your "proof" is not supported by the evidence. We know that Honor and other Shards created Splinters voluntarily. It isn't relevant to whether Odium splintered Honor and whether involuntary splinters of Honor were created in the process. I think it's very relevant to whether Odium splintered Honor that we have absolutely no hard evidence of any further splinters of Honor beyond that ones that were created intentionally. If Honor was splintered in a similar way, I would expect similar splinters and a similar trapping in the cognitive realm to prevent Sentience/Ascension. 1 hour ago, hoser said: I am sure the Shard Honor is not whole. I think we agree that he is not diminished by his voluntary splinters (Stormfather and honorspren for sure, maybe Honorblades). I think that he is splintered based on the quotes I've read, but I don't feel that I have proven it. Honor is Splintered, we have definitive proof of that. My interpretation is that Honor has only splintered himself and those splinters are completely unrelated to whether or not he is whole. His death at the hands of Odium was also completely unrelated to being Splintered. Consider this WoB: Quote Questioner How many Shards have been Splintered, besides the four we know? Brandon Sanderson You're gonna make me canonize this? I can't canonize this. There's a couple that I'm just kind of... Questioner Odium, Endowment, Devotion... Brandon Sanderson Okay, Odium has not been Splintered. Endowment and Devotion have been Splintered... Endowment hasn't been Splintered, sorry. Dominion and Devotion have been Splintered. I've confirmed that one other has been Splintered. And then Honor has been Splintered. Those are your four that I've canonized. The other one is, I don't know if I've mentioned who exactly it is, but it's not one that you've seen on one of the planets... Yeah, I'm not gonna canonize it, exactly how many there are. Because there are things going on in the cosmere that I wanna settle down and decide on once I get to it, exactly what. And Splintering can be a vague term sometimes, too... So that's a RAFO. The four we know that we're splintered also are the four who tussled with Odium, yet Honor's splinters, from all evidence we have, were intentional, and we know of no other splinters definitively. We also know from the other WoB that Honor's splinters didn't diminish him and we're similar to Ruin and Preservation. We know that Odium locked Dominion and Devotion in the Cognitive Realm to prevent future problems. We know that he originally thought he could leave the splinters of Honor alone, but that it will now cause problems. I agree the terminology is loose. Maybe we should move the discussion to what we mean by splintering? Is it just killing the shardholder or is it scattering its power? I agree Honor is splintered, where I don't agree is that Odium has splintered him, as the three previous examples we have show much farther reaching consequences. With Ambition, it affected multiple planets: Quote The direct clash between two Shards of Adonalsium had a profound effect on the planets of this system. Though the actual battle took place in the vast space between planets—and though the true contest happened mostly in other Realms—the ripples of destruction and change washed through the system. Investigations into how this changed the other planets of the system have been fruitless, as none of them have perpendicularities to allow physical visitation. Arcanum Unbounded 1 hour ago, hoser said: 1 hour ago, hoser said: You are welcome to quote whatever you want. I reject your demand that you decide what I quote or not. I think I have adequately explained why I use the quotes that I do. I am content with that. Reject it if you want, I've provided an argument for why in this specific instance it was especially topical. Do with it what you will. I'm not attempting to control your behavior, only make it easier to engage with you, as it's incredibly frustrating to have to dig up quotes to find out that they support what I'm saying to begin with: that the Splinters of Honor that we know about are not at all similar to those that we know were splintered by Odium. 1 hour ago, hoser said: I want to learn from you, but I have explained multiple times that your interpretation of "only" is not supported by the quote. If you won't listen and just repeat your demand that you control how I make my arguments, I don't find that respectful. Saying "universally agree" and "no excuse" does not help. The first time you articulated this argument I changed my wording accordingly because, as I said, I agree with you. 1 hour ago, hoser said: Um, I have been addressing your evidence, which undermines your insufficiently supported assertions. I claim that my discussion has been generally on point. When you claim that I have been "ignoring my actual arguments and evidence," I don't know how to respond constructively. I want to have a constructive discussion where I learn from you and I agree that your further evidence deserves discussion, but I fear that we have gotten off track. You ignored my broader thesis (the evidence shows what happened to Honor is not comparable to Aona and Skai) to attack minutiae (only splinters.) You don't address the points that he should not be surprised by someone taking up a shard that's not held, you didn't even address the two points that are directly quoted in that paragraph. If there was ever an unhelpful paragraph, it's one where you ignore my request to address specific points that haven't yet been addressed to complain you're addressing my points. Edited November 25, 2017 by Fifth of Daybreak 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoser Posted November 26, 2017 Author Report Share Posted November 26, 2017 2 hours ago, Fifth of Daybreak said: Yes, and if you had articulated that in your first post, which is what I asked you to do in my reply to your post where your only statement was "I disagree, consider." Had you been specific in you reply initially, I would have agreed with you that it's not definitive, even as I stand by my interpretation. If you would care to look at my last reply, it is evident that I have, in fact, internalized your criticism and softened that word choice. Here is the post in question: Quote 21 hours ago, Fifth of Daybreak said: ... We know that the only splinters of Honor were created intentionally. ... Not only do I not know this, but I don't believe that it is true. I narrowed it down to a very simple statement. There are only two possible things that I could be disagreeing with: We know that there are no unintentional splinters of Honor We know that there are no intentional splinters. The second is absurd, given the quote you offered and our knowledge of the Honorblades. So there is only one thing I could reasonably be disagreeing with: #1. So, while it was obvious to me at the time what I was disagreeing with, in retrospect I see that I could have been clearer. I agree that none of my quotes directly contradict the thesis, which is why I just stated that I did not know this. For me, the quotes contradict the the "we know" part. You may "know," but I sure don't. The quotes were just intended to suggest why I might doubt the conclusion that there weren't any unintentional splinters. In any case, you could have simply asked for clarification rather than going off on me as you did (quoted below): Quote None of those contradict the WoB I posted where Brandon literally, when asked if there are any splinters of Honor, says the only ones are the Stormfather and the Honorspren and that Honor made them intentionally. I don't understand how you can not believe something to be true when I have provided the source material to back it up and you have provided nothing that contradicts it. I'll post it again. Yuk, what a mess. I don't really want to argue with you. Please let me try something different. I found your initial interpretation about the lack of unintentional splinters of Honor to be unsupported by the evidence. I didn't like being told that I agreed with it: "We know ..." I could have stated my initial disagreement more clearly. I think you could have asked for clarification more pleasantly. I could definitely been more constructive in my next 2 responses. Maybe you could have also, Thanks for accepting my apology. There is a lot of back and forth here that I don't particularly care about except that I am sure some of it could have been better said by me and I'm not sure that you couldn't have said some things better. I want to apologize for my part, but I don't want to say that it was all my fault. Does that seem fair enough to you to go forward with? If we can get past the defensiveness, I would like to try to summarize the Cosmere-related parts of our spirited discussion. Your thesis is that "we killed you" means "Dalinar and Odium killed Evi's physical body." I will edit in more later 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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