Popular Post hoser Posted November 20, 2017 Popular Post Report Share Posted November 20, 2017 (edited) Quote "He's going to fall," Renarin whispered. "He's already fallen. He belongs to the enemy now. Dalinar Kholin ... is no more." ... Nearer to her (Venli), Dalinar Kholin - the man who had resisted - slumped forward, head bowed, holding one hand against his chest and trembling. Odium stepped back, his appearance that of a parshman with golden carapace. "It is done," he said, looking toward Venli and the gathered group of Fused. "You have a leader." ... Something stirred inside of Dalinar. A warmth that he had known once before. A warm, calming light. Unite them. "I will take responsibility for what I have done," Dalinar whispered. ... UNITE THEM! Dalinar thrust his left hand to the side, ... grabbing ... the realm of thought. He thrust his right hand to the other side, touching ... something that ... was all places in one. ... A young parshwoman, the one that Dalinar had visited in the visions. "What are you?" she whispered ... He closed his eyes, breathing out, listening to a sudden stillness. And within it a simple, quiet voice. A woman's voice, so familiar to him. I forgive you. Dalinar opened his eyes, and knew what the parshwoman saw in him. Swirling clouds, glowing light, thunder and lightning. "I am Unity." He slammed both hands together. And combined three realms in one. ... "Honor's Perpendicularity," Syl whispered. "A well of power that pierces all three realms." ... "No!" Odium screamed. He stepped forward. "No, we killed you. We killed you!" I must be a simpleton. Three simple words: "we killed you". I don't understand any of them. I splintered Honor ("you" = Honor; "we" = Odium + minions and/or traitors; "killed" = Splintering of Honor and maybe subsequent death of Tanavast): Obvious. But Odium doesn't seem like the most likely to be sharing credit with what he probably sees as lesser contributors. And Dalinar didn't say he was Honor. He said he was Unity. We Shards splintered Honor ("you" = Honor; "we" = Odium + another Shard; "killed" as above): Also obvious. What other Shard? Nepene suggested Autonomy below. Cultivation and Honor are local, but surprising possibilities given what we understand of their motivations. But why did Dalinar say he was Unity? Our group Shattered Adonalsium ("you" = Adonalsium; Implicitly "we" = Rayse + other actors; "killed" = Shattering of Adonalsium): Does that mean that Dalinar reminds him of Adonalsium? Is Unity the same as Adonalsium? Is Dalinar rebuilding Adonalsium? Why does Syl think it's Honor's Perpendicularity? Because Honor was part of Adonalsium and she didn't know Adonalsium? Dalinar and I killed Evi ("you" = Evi; "we" = Odium + Dalinar; "killed" = normal human death): Fifth of Daybreak proposed this below. The "we" makes sense. I assume that the voice is Evi and she has lingered somehow, rather than traveling beyond. But does Odium even know about the communication between what I presume to be Evi and Dalinar? Why would Odium focus on a long-dead pawn in the face of a presence of something that sees him as small that he is apparently unwilling to face? In context, wouldn't Odium be addressing what's in front of him? Dalinar's anger and I overcame Dalinar's responsible, growing self ("you" = new, controlled Dalinar; "we" = Odium + Dalinar's anger; "killed" = human internal transformation): Crimson Not Blood suggests this below. Autonomy and I splintered Unity: mirianme proposes this on the second page. A related issue is what Dalinar is becoming and what is influencing him. It seems awkward to include here. Is the god beyond encouraging Dalinar to unite the Shards? What did Tanavast's unity charge in the vision mean? Unite the human nations? Unite the humans and the parsh? Or is Tanavast also encouraging him to unite the Shards? Was Tanavast under the influence of what Dalinar is perceiving? Does this deserve it's own thread or should I try to include it? You guys have already provided other explanations. Let's figure this out as well as we can! Edited November 27, 2017 by hoser incorporate responses, reformat 20 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScavellTane Posted November 20, 2017 Report Share Posted November 20, 2017 I believe it's Adonalsium. None of the shards has much idea about the spiritual realm and Dalinar linked all three realms at that moment. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dvoraen Posted November 20, 2017 Report Share Posted November 20, 2017 (edited) Honestly, I'm thinking Adonalsium isn't as dead as the participants of the Shattering thinks. Dalinar likely did something that only Adonalsium was able to do, which is my personal guess. We haven't(?*) seen any indications a Shard can create a perpendicularity at will. I believe Syl calls it Honor's Perpendicularity because it was Connecting the Physical and Cognitive Realms to Honor's power in the Spiritual Realm. Either that or that's what came flooding through since Dalinar was using Honor's Surges to do it. I'm curious if Brandon will give details on what specifically happened here, but something strongly says "not gonna happen". * I have not had time to read literally every cosmere book / novella / story yet, so I could very easily be wrong here. Edited November 20, 2017 by dvoraen 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephen Lightheart Posted November 20, 2017 Report Share Posted November 20, 2017 I got the impression that Dalinar didn't just create a perpendicularity at will, but rather, the Highstorm is Honor's perpendicularity (which would explain why it comes with an unlimited charge of stormlight) and Dalinar channeled the Highstorm through his bond with the SF. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AerionBFII Posted November 20, 2017 Report Share Posted November 20, 2017 Im not too Cosmere savy to be honest but i think it was Honors perpendicularity but i would love it to be Adonalsium. I agree with @dvoraen that Adolnalsium isn't dead or not completely power can't be destroyed. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eumenide Posted November 20, 2017 Report Share Posted November 20, 2017 It could also be that Odium is referring to "We" as Odium and Rayse or it could be Odium(Rayse) and Autonomy (Bavadin). Just a possibility. Doesnt have to be Adolnasium, worth a think, i think 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhineasGage Posted November 20, 2017 Report Share Posted November 20, 2017 If it is Adonalsium, perhaps the "Unite them" voice Dalinar keeps hearing relates more to uniting the shards of Adonalsium than the smaller scale of uniting the splinters of Honor or the people of Roshar. Odium would no longer be a threat if the Intent was tempered by the Intents of the other Shards. Or at least that is implied by one of the letters in WoR. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tri Posted November 20, 2017 Report Share Posted November 20, 2017 I took it as Odium had help to shatter Honor from another Shard. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Child of Hodor Posted November 20, 2017 Report Share Posted November 20, 2017 At first, I thought "did he mean him and his voidbringer friends?", but Odium doesn't seem like the type to view his minions as equal participants. Both Honor in the visions and the Stormfather have indicated that Odium killed Honor and there was no mention of another shard helping. I think it must mean something about what Dalinar did or said reminded Odium of Adonalsium. Perhaps it was Dalinar calling himself "Unity" as much as summoning the perpendicularity that spooked Odium. Unity sounds more like an Adonalsium thing than something that was specific to Honor's intent. I realize it was Honor's constant refrain of "Unite Them!" that Dalinar is acting on, but perhaps "Unite Them" means Unite the shards of Adonalsium. Or at least Unite the Roshar shards. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subvisual Haze Posted November 20, 2017 Report Share Posted November 20, 2017 The "we" likely refers to the fact that Odium had inside help from a traitor when he killed Honor. I read "you" as indicating Honor (both in mind and in power) was not as dead/shattered as Odium originally thought. This coincides with Dalinar manifesting unexpected powers of Honor as well as receiving visions and thoughts from Honor beyond just those left with Stormfather. I think the final dream vision from older Nohadon (which was too interactive to "just" be a recording, while somehow being secretive enough to manage not to be interrupted by Odium), as well as the whispered instructions ("It's the next step") point to a hidden cognitive remnant of Honor/Tanavast/Nohadon, which is still trying to guide Dalinar. It reminded me a lot of the instructions that were whispered to Vin in key moments and were conveyed to Spook in dream visions. The repeating divine command of "UNITE THEM" also reminded me a lot of "SURVIVE!" 11 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoser Posted November 20, 2017 Author Report Share Posted November 20, 2017 All good ideas! The "we" could refer to another Shard, traitors or minions. Dalinar does definitely seem to be getting help. Almost like a cosmic background radiation. It does seem like it could be from Nohadon, Tanavast, Honor, Adonalsium, the god beyond, perhaps even another cognitive entity. That help could affect how Odium perceives him. I lean towards Adonalsium or the god beyond, just because Dalinar seems convinced that it is beyond Tanavast and he has experienced Tanavast's projections. But now that seems too straightforward, so I expect some twists. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paperstones Posted November 20, 2017 Report Share Posted November 20, 2017 I think this refers to those that worshipped Honor. If Odium turned them away from him and corrupted his worship that may have weakened him enough for Odium to kill him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Fifth of Daybreak Posted November 21, 2017 Popular Post Report Share Posted November 21, 2017 (edited) I've been thinking about this, and I think we might be proscribing too large a significance to who he is talking about. Here's the scene condensed. Quote Dalinar thrust his left hand to the side, plunging it between realms, grabbing hold of the very fabric of existence. The world of minds, the realm of thought. He thrust his right hand to the other side, touching something vast, something that wasn’t a place—it was all places in one. He’d seen this before, in the moment when Odium had let him glimpse the Spiritual Realm. Today, he held it in his hand. The Fused scrambled away. Amaram pushed down his faceplate, but that wasn’t enough. He stumbled back, arm raised. Only one person remained in place. A young parshwoman, the one that Dalinar had visited in the visions. “What are you?” she whispered as he stood with arms outstretched, holding to the lands of mind and spirit. He closed his eyes, breathing out, listening to a sudden stillness. And within it a simple, quiet voice. A woman’s voice, so familiar to him. I forgive you. Dalinar opened his eyes, and knew what the parshwoman saw in him. Swirling clouds, glowing light, thunder and lightning. “I am Unity.” He slammed both hands together. And combined three realms into one. ... “No!” Odium screamed. He stepped forward. “No, we killed you. WE KILLED YOU!” Dalinar stood within a pillar of light and spinning gloryspren, one hand to each side, clutching the realms that made up reality. Forgiven. The pain he’d so recently insisted that he would keep started to fade away on its own. 4 As much as I also want to put huge cosmeric weight to those words, I think Odium is more concerned with the immediate present. He's also probably as familiar with shardic theory as anyone is, having splintered multiple shards after ascending himself, and he repeatedly states that as Bondsmith Dalinar has authority to speak/act for Honor, so it seems unlikely that he would be surprised at a shard starting to coalesce around Dalinar, the one most currently aligned with its power. Instead, I think Odium is entirely fixated on this moment and why it failed. I don't think it's an unfair assumption to think that Odium is seeing similar visions to Renarin and flat out assumed Dalinar would bend to his will without much of a fight. The reason for this is because they removed the biggest obstacle to this moment years ago. I use 'they' in the same context I think Odium is using 'we:' Dalinar and Odium. I think Odium is talking about Evi. Odium was sure that by using the thrill to have Dalinar kill the one source of light in his life, he had recruited himself a champion for life, but then Dalinar reaches into the spiritual realm and receives forgiveness and peace, destroying Odium's plans and visions. In that moment of shock, he cannot comprehend someone reaching out from the spiritual realm, especially an obstacle that he and Dalinar took care of. His shock is manifested in what he says. "No! No! Dalinar and I killed Evi. WE KILLED YOU! YOU CAN'T FORGIVE HIM" (My interpretation added.) Edited November 21, 2017 by Fifth of Daybreak 32 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sayis Posted November 21, 2017 Report Share Posted November 21, 2017 Im in the Evi boat. She forgave Dalinar after what 'they' did to her. Odium didnt see it coming and it ruined his plans. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nepene Posted November 21, 2017 Report Share Posted November 21, 2017 Three possibilities. 1. He's referring to another shardic ally, likely autonomy. We killed Honor, now Dalinar is manifesting the powers of a sliver like Vin and drawing in extra stormlight which should be impossible because he doesn't know much about reforging shards. 2. This moment reminded him of when they slew Adonalsium, and Dalinar is merging Odium Honor and Cultivation magic to act like a proto form of Adonalsium. 3. Evi was killed utterly (soul wrecked, personally targeted by Odium) enough that her cognitive shadow shouldn't have been able to manifest, but the god beyond, the true creator of the universe resurrected her briefly because he liked Dalinar enough to help him win. Hard to say which is more true without some word of Brandon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leyrann Posted November 21, 2017 Report Share Posted November 21, 2017 7 minutes ago, Nepene said: but the god beyond, the true creator of the universe resurrected her briefly because he liked Dalinar enough to help him win. Are you referring Brandon Sanderson by this? 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StormingTexan Posted November 21, 2017 Report Share Posted November 21, 2017 Yeah the "WE" confused the heck out of me. I don't buy the Evi angle I think that was just the final realization Dalinar needed to become "Unity". It seems pretty clear to me Dalinar manifested Honor's power here at least temporarily and this scared Odium off. It was surprising to the SF as well he did not know it was possible. I still do not know who the "WE" is.. It could be as simple as the forces of Odium he and his unmade/fused. I guess it could be another shard as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quickbronze Posted November 21, 2017 Report Share Posted November 21, 2017 I'm in the boat that thinks "we" refers to Odium and Dalinar's own anger whereas "you" refers to the new, controlled Dalinar that is willing to defy Odium. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bacon Posted November 21, 2017 Report Share Posted November 21, 2017 I think I'm on the Adonalsium train. In particular, access to the spiritual realm isn't something I can remember any individual shard, or invested person, doing before, but might have been something all the shards could do together 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leyrann Posted November 21, 2017 Report Share Posted November 21, 2017 (edited) 13 minutes ago, Crimson Not Blood said: I'm in the boat that thinks "we" refers to Odium and Dalinar's own anger whereas "you" refers to the new, controlled Dalinar that is willing to defy Odium. Wouldn't he have used something like "defeated" then? 9 minutes ago, Bacon said: I think I'm on the Adonalsium train. In particular, access to the spiritual realm isn't something I can remember any individual shard, or invested person, doing before, but might have been something all the shards could do together We have a WoB telling us it's happened before. Edited November 21, 2017 by Leyrann Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nepene Posted November 21, 2017 Report Share Posted November 21, 2017 34 minutes ago, Leyrann said: Are you referring Brandon Sanderson by this? https://coppermind.net/wiki/God_Beyond Sorta, but mostly, whatever the true god is, the one that Dalinar mentions and which Brandon has mentioned a few times. Brandon has noted that the God Beyond is the god that dwells in the afterlife, the beyond. The true monotheistic Abrahamic god expy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fifth of Daybreak Posted November 21, 2017 Report Share Posted November 21, 2017 19 minutes ago, Bacon said: In particular, access to the spiritual realm isn't something I can remember any individual shard, or invested person, doing before, Quote “Taravangian!” Odium said. “This is remarkable.” The walls and furniture faded, leaving behind the words, which hung in the air and started glowing with a golden light. “You did this without access to Fortune, or the Spiritual Realm? Truly incredible.” “Th-thank you?” “Allow me to show you how far I see.” Goldenwords exploded outward from the ones Taravangian had written in the Diagram. Millions upon millions of golden letters burned into the air, extending into infinity. Each took one small element that Taravangian had written, and expanded upon it in volumes and volumes’ worth of information. This heavily implies that Odium has access to both Fortune and the Spiritual Realm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calderis Posted November 21, 2017 Report Share Posted November 21, 2017 1 hour ago, Fifth of Daybreak said: This heavily implies that Odium has access to both Fortune and the Spiritual Realm. An implication is not needed. The majority of a shards power exists in the Spiritual Realm. Future sight is inherently a Spiritual thing in the Cosmere, due to the spiritual being the only time independent Realm. The Shards have to be able to understand the Spiritual, it's a big part of the way they function. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fifth of Daybreak Posted November 21, 2017 Report Share Posted November 21, 2017 (edited) @Calderis Thanks, that makes since with the WoB provided earlier. https://wob.coppermind.net/events/76-shadows-of-self-chicago-signing/#e6304 Mistborn spoilers Spoiler Play/Pause Argent Can somebody travel to the Spiritual Realm, the same as the Cognitive? Brandon Sanderson Yes, but it's a very different experience. It is possible… You may have seen people do it... Argent As in you're not sure, or you're being obnoxiously vague? Brandon Sanderson No... Questioner #1 As in, you probably have but he's having trouble remembering it. Brandon Sanderson No no no... For instance, Elend burning atium and duralumin pulled most of him into the Spiritual Realm. Argent Oh, that's what happens there. Brandon Sanderson Yeah. He kind of got yanked into- You also have seen people Ascend with the powers and dip into the Spiritual Realm for a little bit. Argent So, Vin? Brandon Sanderson Yeah. But they could be on both, or either, or both at the same time. But you have seen Vin stick into the Spiritual Realm. And it happened to Sazed/Harmony... Questioner #2 Oh! So is that where the gods live? Kinda? Brandon Sanderson Most of the bulk of the Shard's energy of being is contained in the Spiritual Realm, yes. Except for one notable exception! Questioner #2 The <mists? mistwraith?>? Brandon Sanderson No. Footnote: We now know that the "one notable exception" Brandon refers to at the end is the Dor, which is mostly contained in the Cognitive Realm Edited November 21, 2017 by Fifth of Daybreak Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leyrann Posted November 21, 2017 Report Share Posted November 21, 2017 Just now, Fifth of Daybreak said: @Calderis Thanks, I actually happened to run into the WoB that helps explain just that doing research on this not too long before you posted haha. https://wob.coppermind.net/events/76-shadows-of-self-chicago-signing/#e6304 Mistborn spoilers Reveal hidden contents Play/Pause Argent Can somebody travel to the Spiritual Realm, the same as the Cognitive? Brandon Sanderson Yes, but it's a very different experience. It is possible… You may have seen people do it... Argent As in you're not sure, or you're being obnoxiously vague? Brandon Sanderson No... Questioner #1 As in, you probably have but he's having trouble remembering it. Brandon Sanderson No no no... For instance, Elend burning atium and duralumin pulled most of him into the Spiritual Realm. Argent Oh, that's what happens there. Brandon Sanderson Yeah. He kind of got yanked into- You also have seen people Ascend with the powers and dip into the Spiritual Realm for a little bit. Argent So, Vin? Brandon Sanderson Yeah. But they could be on both, or either, or both at the same time. But you have seen Vin stick into the Spiritual Realm. And it happened to Sazed/Harmony... Questioner #2 Oh! So is that where the gods live? Kinda? Brandon Sanderson Most of the bulk of the Shard's energy of being is contained in the Spiritual Realm, yes. Except for one notable exception! Questioner #2 The <mists? mistwraith?>? Brandon Sanderson No. Footnote: We now know that the "one notable exception" Brandon refers to at the end is the Dor, which is mostly contained in the Cognitive Realm That's literally the WoB I linked to four posts earlier lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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