[OB] Theory on Origins of Rosharan Humanity and the Old Magic

[ROSHtaFARian2.0]

So now we have confirmation that humans came to Roshar from somewhere else. People have theorized before that humanity might have come to Roshar from Ashyn, and I believe more than ever that this is the case.

Firstly....from what little we know of Ashyn via WoBs and his readings from it, that world suffered some form of cataclysm in the past, stemming from the disease based magic people used there. However, just because humans on Roshar arrived there after a great cataclysm on their original world, that doesn't mean that ALL the humans from their original world left it. Some might have remained behind, and that, I posit, are the people in the scattered cities that make up the remnant of civilization on Ashyn.

Secondly, we know that humans, as the original Voidbringers, were responsible for the destruction of their original world and the Recreance and Nale's later actions resulted from a fear that Surgebinders, unchecked, would do the same to Roshar. However, this does not inherently mean that Surgebinding was responsible for the destruction of the first world. Indeed, we have this line from Chapter 113:

Quote

But in the days leading to the Recreance, Honor was dying.  When that generation of knights learned the truth, Honor did not support them.  He raved, speaking of the Dawnshards, ancient weapons used to destroy the Tranquiline Halls.  Honor ... promised that Surgebinders would do the same to Roshar.

The way this is phrased makes me feel that Honor was not saying that Surgebinders would destroy their world again, but rather that Surgebinders would do to Roshar what the humans of the Tranquiline Halls did to their world with the magic system of that world. We know that magic systems are born of the interaction between a Shard's Investiture and the planet they're on, and while they have some control over how their magic system works or is shaped, there are some things they can't control. Due to the greater presence of Adonalsium's Investiture on Roshar in the form of spren, Honor and Cultivation, upon arriving and Investing in Roshar, found spren the channel through which their Investiture and magic was shaped. But on their previous planet, whether that was Ashyn or somewhere else, their Investiture might have resulted in a very different magic system (or more than one).

We know that the magic on Ashyn takes the form of diseases (or more accurately) bacteria, that when infecting a human host also grants that human some form of magic ability for as long as they remain infected. Some of these abilities are innocuous, some moderately useful, and others catastrophically destructive. However all of them, regardless of the end result of the ability, play into the same underlying nature: gain comes at cost. Power paired with weakness. And where else have we seen such an underlying nature? With the Nightwatcher's boons and curses, rumored to be associated with both Cultivation and the Old Magic. Petitioners seek out the Nightwatcher to ask a boon, a favor, something that can be used to better themselves or their situation or act as some form of power or ability....but such a thing comes at a cost, as they are stricken with a curse as well, something that takes something from them or impairs them in some way. Not unlike a disease. In fact, consider that the boons and curses bestowed by the Nightwatcher all seem to be neurological in some way, from what we've seen so far...and bacteria and diseases can certainly affect neurology.

On Ashyn, it's not just that diseases grant magic, from what little we've seen of it in Brandon's readings. From what we've seen, the civilization on Ashyn actively CULTIVATES these diseases, employing people as human incubators to keep certain strains of bacteria around and viable should they ever have need of the ability bestowed by that disease. My theory is that the disease magic of Ashyn was Cultivation's original magic system, the form her Investiture took when interacting with Ashyn, and some Splinter of her still remains behind on Ashyn even if no Perpendicularity does, and fuels what's left of Ashyn's magic. When she moved to Roshar with the humans who fled from it, her Investiture took a new form, as did Honor's, and created a new magic, Surgebinding. However, perhaps some remnants of her original magic came with her and is evident in the Nightwatcher, or perhaps some magic practitioners from Ashyn carried some lingering strains with them when they came....and this is the Old Magic, echoes or pieces of Cultivation's first magic system, which exists separate from Surgebinding but can still manipulate biology (and neurology) in some small ways, even stranded from Ashyn, the planet that birthed this magic via its interaction with Cultivation's Investiture.

While the epigraphs in Oathbreaker seem to imply at least one Shard (most likely Autonomy) claims "many lands" and as such, possibly is Invested in multiple worlds and magic systems, we have no real idea yet of what that might mean, or how different magic systems born of a Shard's Investiture might look given the key role a Shardworld plays in shaping these magic systems. My theory is that it's less important to look at the trappings of various magic systems, the mechanisms or the fuel sources, and look at the Intent underneath for any commonalities. If I'm correct, and Ashyn's disease magic is born of Cultivation, same as the Nightwatcher's boons and curses, and half of Surgebinding, the unifying commonality in all of Cultivation's magic is that to gain something, you must give something. That reward comes at cost. Even at its most base definition, cultivation by its nature is progress resulting from labor, effort and time. Nothing is cultivated for free, or even cheaply. The more you put into trying to cultivate something, the greater your gains. By extrapolating this union between Intent and magic, the greater the power resulting from a disease on Ashyn, the more deadly the disease or more horrific or taxing the symptoms are likely to be. The greater the boon, or gift, or request made of the Nightwatcher, the more debilitating or impairing the curse granted alongside it. And with Surgebinding, the greater the skill and power wielded by a Surgebinder, the more effort, honor, sacrifice the Surgebinder has to put into Cultivating their bond with a spren. The most powerful abilities are unlocked only at the recitation and understanding of the highest Ideals, which as we've seen, do not come cheaply to Surgebinders. To wield Surgebinding at its most powerful levels, a Knight Radiant must all but give him or herself fully over to the bond with their spren and their service to certain ideals. To gain you must give. The more you give, the more you gain.

Something too that I've noted, is that Cultivation's magic (via this interpretation) is not aimed at being most beneficial to an individual, but rather to a civilization or society as a whole. With the disease magic on Ashyn, the civilization we saw is structured around employing people as incubators to specific diseases not for the benefit of the individual who gets that disease, but rather if the greater populace has need of that ability. We didn't see people running around infecting themselves to have abilities, but rather society doling out diseases as befitted the needs of society. Similarly, on Roshar, the Cultivation of Honor that fuels Surgebinding is not in service to the individual Surgebinder, but rather advocates by its very nature for a Surgebinder to become a champion of society, of the greater good, the overall populace. Power granted in largest doses not to the individual who seeks it for himself, but doled out instead to the individual who seeks to use it for Honor, for Justice, for the good of all. All of this matches the Intent of Cultivation, which is a term generally used on a large macro scale, rather than a micro. You can cultivate things for and of yourself, but for the most part, cultivation is done on a society wide level.    

According to this interpretation of magic and Investiture, had Ruin Invested on planets besides Scadrial, other magic systems of his might not have matched hemalurgy in that it required spiking various points in a spiritweb, or using metal, or even in stealing attributes. But its likely that all magic systems fueled by his Investiture would have the underlying commonality that they feed entropy. They Ruin, they enhance decay or degradation, they follow a law of diminishing returns. Were Endowment to Invest on other worlds and fuel more magic systems, they would all likely involve a gift, as in Breath, as a catalyst, with the act of gifting or endowing being crucial to the advancement of magic. And so on.

Which brings us to Honor, and the Dawnshards. From what little we know of the Dawnshards, they have the power to bind any creature, voidish or mortal. By this theory, if Honor were to fuel more than one magic system, the underlying commonality due to his Intent is that his magic is always a thing of binding. On Roshar, with Investiture resulting in honorspren, that magic became Surgebinding, creating bonds between humans and ideas-made-flesh, with this bond being what allowed for the governing of natural forces such as gravity and friction. On Ashyn, where there were no spren, the magic that resulted might have looked very different....but still involved the binding of things.

The only part of this theory I'm uncertain about is whether all Shard's Investiture, as influenced by a Shardworld, MUST take the same form - or if a Shardworld could interact with two different Shards in two different ways. This is true of everything we've seen so far where two or more Shards Invest in the same Shardworld, with spren on Roshar, metals on Scadrial, geographic identities and shapes on Sel. But just because it's all we've seen so far, doesn't mean that its automatically true for all Shards and all Shardworlds, and that there aren't exceptions or loopholes. I believe that Honor was previously Invested on Ashyn, along with Cultivation, but while her Investiture manifested via bacteria and resulted in disease magic....I believe that Honor's previous Investiture on Ashyn took the form of the Dawnshards or rather that whatever it is they truly are, they're the remnants of Honor's magic that were brought to Roshar when he and the humans came, just as the Old Magic is the echo of Cultivation's previous disease magic. Whether there is some link between the Dawnshards and disease magic, or that Honor interacted with the disease magic in Ashyn that I'm not thinking of because we have so very little information there with which to speculate - these are entirely possible. Or, alternatively, the Dawnshards represent a wholly different magic system that was fueled solely by Honor's Investiture while the disease magic was fueled by Cultivation (at least until Odium arrived, and possibly Invested on Ashyn resulting in bacteria/diseases that led to the humans of that world largely destroying it).

Related to this theory but slightly tangential: Following the line of these thoughts, I do think that the fact that The Silence Divine reveals there are still people living on Ashyn and still using the disease magic means that there must be some Investiture still fueling it....meaning that Cultivation likely left a Splinter of herself behind, either intentionally or on accident, when she left for Roshar. However, if this is true, it could be the reason why Honor took the brunt of keeping Odium imprisoned via the Oathpact and his Heralds, while also explaining why Odium might have a trickier time Shattering Cultivation than he did Honor....because she's not entirely there on Roshar, and to completely kill or Shatter her, Odium would have to return himself or part of his Investiture to Ashyn and eliminate her there too, which he's either unable or unwilling to do, given the nature of his imprisonment and his focus on Roshar.

Edited November 18, 2017 by ROSHtaFARian2.0

[Fezzik]

17 hours ago, ROSHtaFARian2.0 said:

In fact, consider that the boons and curses bestowed by the Nightwatcher all seem to be neurological in some way, from what we've seen so far...and bacteria and diseases can certainly affect neurology

Didn't some dude get a bunch of food during a famine as his boon?

As for Dawnshards, I think they are whatever the gem that stayed lit for 200 years is. Whether because they are perfectly cut, or magic, they can hold investiture indefinitely.

[DiamondMind]

One problem with this theory is that the humans are supposed to have brought Odium with them to Roshar, and then the two races switched patron gods.

[The One Who Connects]

5 hours ago, john203 said:

they can hold investiture indefinitely.

Gemhearts(or the Greatshells that have them) can hold investiture indefinitely too. That's their purpose from a story perspective.

Quote

Questioner

What role will the chasmfiends play?

Brandon Sanderson

So there's a bunch of different roles for the chasmfiends that are all minor but-- For instance, I don't think anyone's made this connection, thunderclasts have chasmfiend-- it's part of the in-world inspiration for thunderclasts. And really chasmfiends exist in part to show off the symbiotic relationship between certain spren and certain creatures on Roshar. So when people who read the first book who know a little about physics can be like "Uhh, Mr. Sanderson" and I'm like "Well, look at these things that are flowing around this thing when it dies." It's an introduction of gemhearts and things like this. And the ability of certain creatures on Roshar to hold Investiture permanently, as Szeth says, rather than it seeping away like it does to humans.

---

5 hours ago, john203 said:

Didn't some dude get a bunch of food during a famine as his boon?

He got cloth actually, which he sold for food. But either way, that's a point of contention around here.

It's a second-hand account of what happened, and a common interpretation is that something neurological happened that led to him getting the cloth, and basically this is a wait and see.

[ROSHtaFARian2.0]

4 minutes ago, DiamondMind said:

One problem with this theory is that the humans are supposed to have brought Odium with them to Roshar, and then the two races switched patron gods.

True, but there are a number of ways for this still to work with that. If Honor and Cultivation had been Invested on Ashyn previously, Odium could have then arrived after them and Invested in other to Shatter and kill them, and in the process gained the worship of the humans of that world (as well as potentially altering or adding to the magic systems in such a way as to lead to the cataclysm that resulted from magic). Perhaps Cultivation and/or Honor fled Ashyn before the cataclysm and sought refuge on Roshar, with Odium arriving with the original human Voidbringers after the cataclysm. Or Cultivation came to Roshar first, and Honor followed either at the same time as Odium or after. The sequence of things is up in the air still due to a lack of more information, but I don't believe there's anything in this theory that dictates the order in which the three Shards moved from Ashyn to Roshar.

As for the Dawnshards, I wouldn't be surprised if that gem is an example of one of the Dawnshards but this is less about what the Dawnshards are now and their specific form or function and more what they represent in terms of the history of Roshar and the Tranquiline Halls, and their connection to Honor.

As far as the boon granting food during a famine, I confess I don't remember that example, but even if I'm correct about the Nightwatcher and the Old Magic having some connection to the disease magic of Ashyn via Cultivation's (possible) previous Investment there, that doesn't preclude the Nightwatcher having access to more venues for granting boons as well as that. My point about the neurological basis of most if not all the boons/curses we've seen so far is only meant to draw a connection between the Old Magic and Ashyn's magic, it isn't necessarily meant to limit them to that.

[Vulcronos]

Honor and Cultivation came together.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/105-17th-shard-forum-qa/#e1169

Quote

Lance Alvein

Did Cultivation come to Roshar with Honor, or was she already on Roshar when Honor arrived?

Brandon Sanderson

Good question. They came together.

 

[teknopathetic]

It is interesting that Autonomy seem to be giving autonomy to different aspects of herself, or perhaps she is giving deities to other worlds so that the people have protection/options in order to be autonomous from other forces. Maybe her god-seeding isn't as nefarious as we though (and it makes it way less likely that she is the shard assisting Odium, though I suppose some of her aspects could be helping him). 

[JPark317]

Not to derail this thread, but where did we get so much information about Ashyn and it’s magic system and civilization that cultivated the bacteria?

[The Sovereign]

4 minutes ago, JPark317 said:

Not to derail this thread, but where did we get so much information about Ashyn and it’s magic system and civilization that cultivated the bacteria?

Assorted WoBs.

[JPark317]

12 minutes ago, The Sovereign said:

Assorted WoBs.

Thanks, I then assume the info regarding the civilization cultivating the bacteria comes from Silence Divine, which I did not know was set on Ashyn. 

[The Sovereign]

2 minutes ago, JPark317 said:

Thanks, I then assume the info regarding the civilization cultivating the bacteria comes from Silence Divine, which I did not know was set on Ashyn. 

Yes indeed.

[emailanimal]

On 11/19/2017 at 1:54 PM, DiamondMind said:

One problem with this theory is that the humans are supposed to have brought Odium with them to Roshar, and then the two races switched patron gods

Yes. This is actually quite interesting.

 

I do not know if humans came from Ashyn. I suspect, no.  It seems that Odium was nowhere near the Roshar system when Honor and Cultivation settled there. In my head, this plays out roughly as follows:  the Shattering of Adonalsium, everyone takes up Shards, says "Good bye, Cephandrius" and goes their way. Honor and Cultivation go to Roshar. Odium squints and things and goes after Ambition. After that, settles down somewhere. Runs the planet into ground (see below). Moves humans to Roshar. While planet-less goes to Sel, makes Dor our out Aona and Skai.  Comes back to Roshar, where Honor  gives him a Catch-22 deal. I am somewhat hazy on the specifics, but basically, Odium cannot off Honor without being Invested up to his ears in Roshar, and Investing in Roshar keeps him out of the rest of Cosmere. So, Honor bound him by giving him a shot at himself.  somewhere in between, Honor and Cultivation "stole" the humans, humans jumped the fence and spread out of Shinovar, and Odium figured a way to keep Cognitive Shadows of singers around and dangerous.  Someone should ask Brandon about connections between the Fused and whatever the heck is going on on Threondy.  Odium's Investment into Roshar yielded voidspren and those acquired the ability to bond singers and give them powerforms.  At this point Honor came up with the Oathpact ruse, talked ten suckers into accepting it.  From that point on, it went somewhat according to the Vorin doctrine: human vs. singer, thunderclasts, Desolations, and all that.

 

I agree with the OP that the planet humans came from was destroyed using whatever magic system Odium had set up there, and this turned into Surgebinding in retelling. I just don't think it was Ashyn.  It seems to me that Odium temporarily settled outside of Roshar system. Otherwise he'd been in open conflict with Honor and Cultivation much earlier than the "expulsion from Tranquiline Halls" time.  Unless the actual expulsion was in fact Honor's pre-emptive strike.

 

 

[Sairys]

@emailanimal alternatively, could the humans have come with Odium from Sel? 

They could have been the original inhabitants of the Arelon region, given Elantris was empty and abandoned when the Aonic people moved in well after the splintering of Devotion and Dominion.

 

It could offer an origin for glyph wards given Selish magic iform basis, the original group of humans might have passed it down and the glyphs have become unrecognisable over time (and may even be from a magic system that was lost in the splintering on Sel)

The mural Shallan found in Urithuru has a solitary figure hovering before the large blue disc with arms outstretched, kinda reminds me of the mural Raoden and crew found in Elantris depicting Devotion's shardpool.

Which would make Elantris the Tranquiline Halls (which could be fitting given just how awesome and nice it seems there) and ending up on Roshar after living there would likely be like getting kicked out of heaven.

Edited November 21, 2017 by Sairys

[ROSHtaFARian2.0]

Well something else in support of the Tranquiline Halls being Ashyn that I neglected to include in my initial post is just Occam's Razor. 

We know that there is at least one magic that predates the Shattering - Hoid's Yolish Lightweaving. Similarly, we know the symbiotic magic system on the world from Sixth of Dusk is not fueled by a full Shard, but rather is assumed to be fueled by a Splinter or lingering Investiture from a Shard that had previously Invested in that world. We have WoBs that magic systems can be fueled by Splinters rather than just full Shards, but those Splinters all have to come from somewhere of course.

So with the sole exception of the Lightweaving that was present before the Shattering, on the world all the Shards hail from, every other magic system we've seen or heard mention of in the cosmere draws upon a Shard's Investiture, either in full or via a Splinter.

So, we've got a world that's right next door to Roshar in a star system that has been embroiled in the conflict between three Shards for thousands of years - one of those Shards infamous for being the Shard most fixated on killing all of his potential rivals. We have the letter in Oathbringer that's presumably from Autonomy - the Shard most infamous for meddling throughout the cosmere - saying even they have no interest in Rayse's prison, aka the greater Rosharan system (since we have WoB that Rayse is bound to the system as a whole, not just Roshar). We also have a letter in Oathbringer that's presumably from Endowment and speaks of a pact between all sixteen original Vessels, which stated that they should avoid each other, and because Skai and Aona did not adhere to this pact, the Shard who sent that letter has no sympathy for them, or presumably for Honor and Cultivation, who did the same. All of which is to suggest that even though Ruin, Preservation, Dominion, Devotion, Honor and Cultivation all paired up rather than stick to the pact, and even though Autonomy meddles on other Shardworlds (if we assume she's Trell) and Odium seeks out rivals to kill, the standing agreement between the remaining shards is to avoid each other. We also have WoBs that Odium is leery of Investing in a Shardworld, and prefers not to, which suggests that when he does so, as he's done on Roshar, its in reaction to other Shards and part of his attempt to Shatter and kill them. Then we have the reading from The Silence Divine that states that although we're not aware of the full capabilities of Ashyn's disease magic as it stands now, at some point in its history that magic was powerful enough to be responsible for a worldwide cataclysm. And finally, we know that the humans on Roshar had to come from somewhere, and wherever they came from, they unleashed a magical cataclysm that destroyed it, or near to.

So, with all of that being things that we know and can extrapolate conclusions from, what are the chances then that some other unknown fourth Shard at some point Invested in a world near to the heart of a fatal and lengthy conflict between three other Shards, one of them infamous for targeting and killing other Shards, and that their Investiture was fuel for humans to destroy most of their civilization in a manner similar to the origin we now have for Rosharan humans? And related to that, if there was no fourth Shard in the Rosharan system, what are the odds that Odium, who doesn't like to Invest and thereby bind himself to a Shardworld if he doesn't have to, found a reason to do that on Ashyn if it wasn't in response to Cultivation and/or Honor already being Invested there, and part of his attempt to Shatter and kill them?

While Occam's Razor should never be taken as proof of anything, it seems to me that given we know that humans on Roshar had to come from somewhere, and that the civilization destroying magic on Ashyn had to draw fuel from somewhere, it requires far more coincidences and parallel plotlines to assume yet another Shard has been present in the Rosharan system's history and that resulted in events that were similar to the original Voidbringers destroying their home and traveling to Roshar yet were not these actual events themselves.

The timeline in my head now is as follows:

- The Shattering

- Odium targets Ambition, who by virtue of their Intent (and perhaps due to previous history between their Vessels) was seen by him as the greatest potential threat, Shatters her

- Odium becomes aware that Dominion and Devotion have both settled on Sel together, and targets them as this makes them a potential threat to him as well, Shatters them. Depending on how the process of Shattering Shards works, its possible that this required he temporarily Invest on Sel, and withdrew his Investiture once they were Shattered and he departed that world - or perhaps if the process of Shattering is different depending on the specific conflict, he didn't need to Invest in this world to Shatter Aona and Skai. 

- Odium becomes aware that Honor and Cultivation have both settled on Ashyn together, and makes them his next target. Note that this doesn't mean Honor and Cultivation settled somewhere together AFTER Devotion and Dominion, but perhaps simply means that Odium targeted Aona and Skai first because he found them first, had a more personal stake in killing them first, or considered their potential pairing a greater threat to him than Honor and Cultivation's. 

- For some reason, Honor and Cultivation are more difficult for Odium to Shatter than Ambition, Devotion or Dominion were, and they put up more of a fight. Odium Invests in Ashyn as well, and uses his Investiture and the resulting magic to sway humans to his cause and pit them against Honor and Cultivation. 

- Honor and Cultivation see Ashyn as a lost cause and retreat, withdrawing most if not all of their Investiture from Ashyn. (I have a theory I made years ago that using a Shard's Investiture against the parent Shard - ie wielding the magic born of it in direct opposition to a Shard's Intent, like using Surgebinding dishonorably or to halt or destroy progress rather than cultivate it - this weakens a Shard and makes it easier to Shatter them. If this is in any way true, then Honor and Cultivation, seeing their magic systems corrupted by Odium's Investiture and the mortals of Ashyn turned against them, might have thought it better to abandon Ashyn as a lost cause and retreat to Roshar to start anew, hoping to make a stronger stand against Odium there. Which would provide an explanation for Honor and Cultivation arriving on Roshar together BEFORE the Voidbringers destroyed their world and arrived with Odium. Again, just a theory, but I present it if only as proof of the fact that there are a number of ways to explain Honor and Cultivation fleeing to Roshar from Ashyn even before it was destroyed).

- Honor and Cultivation Invest in Roshar.

- The Voidbringers destroy most of Ashyn with their corrupted magic, which has to do with both the Dawnshards and the disease/bacteria magic of Ashyn (or else both those things are somehow linked and part of the same magic system) but is now primarily fueled by Odium's Investiture and some remnants of Cultivation (ie, if she left a Splinter behind).

- The Voidbringers flee doomed Ashyn to Roshar, and Odium reclaims his Investiture from Ashyn and joins them, so he can pursue the escaped Honor and Cultivation.

- Odium Invests in Roshar, resumes his conflict with Honor and Cultivation.

- Honor binds Odium via the Oathpact.

- Nine of the Heralds abandon the Oathpact.

- Honor is finally weakened enough that Odium is able to Shatter him, the Stormfather becomes a Cognitive Shadow of Honor.

- For whatever reason, Odium is still unable to Shatter Cultivation, either as he is too weakened by his conflict with Honor to confront her directly, or perhaps because she left a Splinter behind on Ashyn and he's hesitant to make a move just yet because destroying her entirely would thus require his own return to Ashyn to eliminate her last Splinter, which he either can not do until the Oathpact is entirely obliterated, or he chooses not to before he's completed his goals on Roshar.

Edited November 21, 2017 by ROSHtaFARian2.0

[Fezzik]

1 hour ago, ROSHtaFARian2.0 said:

Honor binds Odium via the Oathpact.

The oathpact is between Honor and Heralds, and is not the reason Odium is bound, but it is related.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/76-shadows-of-self-chicago-signing/#e6273

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/77-shadows-of-self-lansing-signing/#e6819

1 hour ago, ROSHtaFARian2.0 said:

- Odium targets Ambition, who by virtue of their Intent (and perhaps due to previous history between their Vessels) was seen by him as the greatest potential threat, Shatters her

- Odium becomes aware that Dominion and Devotion have both settled on Sel together, and targets them as this makes them a potential threat to him as well, Shatters them.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/36-arcanum-unbounded-chicago-signing/#e1550

Switch these.

[Yata]

It's possible the Humans comes from Braize and Odium was and remained in Braize. He could begin to be' connected with Roshar when the Humans Who were already connected to him, setted to Roshar After Braize was devastated

[ROSHtaFARian2.0]

But that still leaves us with the same questions:

Why would Odium, who by Brandon's own admission dislikes Investing and thus tying himself to a Shardworld, (and whom a second WoB says that Odium does have an interest in mortals beyond just using them against other Shards, but that his primary motivation is killing other Shards) Invest in Braize if not as part of his efforts to kill Honor & Cultivation, his primary motivation?

And if Odium Invested in Braize because Honor & Cultivation were Invested there before Roshar, then again that leaves the question: where does Ashyn's magic come from if not the result or remnant of Investiture from Cultivation and Honor?

[teknopathetic]

There were also many waves of refugees to Roshar, There is more than one type of human that has shown up on this refugee world, and exactly who came from where might be a little more convoluted than it first appears. 

[Sairys]

On 11/22/2017 at 6:27 PM, ROSHtaFARian2.0 said:

then again that leaves the question: where does Ashyn's magic come from if not the result or remnant of Investiture from Cultivation and Honor?

 

The WoB is here, but effectively all worlds have some form of magic to them. Considering diseases are natural it could similarly fall within the definition of "interacting with nature". The question was asked in this WoB and RAFOd, but a living organism entering another and giving them magic is a similarity between Ashyn and First of the Sun.

Makes me wonder if it's possible that the presence of Shards on a planet could affect the nearby worlds as well, maybe enhancing the magic there without creating a separate system?

[Fezzik]

@Sairys, I have never seen a more divergent post count and quality of post. Welcome. It's good to have you.

[ROSHtaFARian2.0]

1 hour ago, Sairys said:

The WoB is here, but effectively all worlds have some form of magic to them. Considering diseases are natural it could similarly fall within the definition of "interacting with nature". The question was asked in this WoB and RAFOd, but a living organism entering another and giving them magic is a similarity between Ashyn and First of the Sun.

Makes me wonder if it's possible that the presence of Shards on a planet could affect the nearby worlds as well, maybe enhancing the magic there without creating a separate system?

Sairys, thanks for providing that WoB - it is something I took into account, as it was definitely something to consider here. But to me, the most crucial part of that quoted interaction was when Brandon said this:

Quote

There is inherent investiture in every world created but you are going to see-- You aren't going to find Mistborn on a world like that but what you might find is a way there are magic aspects to the setting. Spren could exist on a world like that but they would be like the minor spren, you wouldn't find Syl, but you would find something like lifespren.

This is the basis for why I don't believe Ashyn's magic can be explained by ambient Investiture, but rather that at some point a Shard or Shards must have been Invested in it, because while yes, I see the point you're making about bacteria being natural and having some similarities to First of Sun's symbiotic magic, the sticking point for me is that at some point in the past, Ashyn's magic was responsible for a global cataclysm. That LEVEL of magic seems to be the distinction Brandon is making when he says you're not going to find mistborn on a world with just ambient magic, or spren powerful enough to grant Surgebinding via a bond.

I suppose its theoretically possible that a Shard's presence on a nearby world could enhance ambient magic, but I don't really see any particular reason to believe that over the possibility of Shards we know came from somewhere else Invested in this particular somewhere else.

I would like to point out that my theory is based not on any one singular element I've proposed here, but rather the confluence of them. What I mean by that is, given our level of information, there are a hundred different possibilities for any one variable here.....we know that Odium came with the Voidbringers from a world they destroyed, but that could be Ashyn, it could be Braize, it could be another unknown world, etc. We know that Honor and Cultivation came to Roshar from somewhere else, but that could be any number of places. We know that bacteria on Ashyn grants magical abilities, but that could be due to ambient Investiture on Ashyn, a Splinter of Cultivation, remnants of Odium, or the Investiture of another unknown Shard. And so on and so on.

So my theory is born of drawing a unifying conclusion via all these disparate things, ie something that posits an explanation for all of these elements in one go. It was never meant to be a dismissal of the fact that there are of course, other possible answers for any of these individual variables, as this is all just conjecture at this point. 

Edited November 27, 2017 by ROSHtaFARian2.0

[Sairys]

@ROSHtaFARian2.0 true, though that's the source of my curiosity about what effect Shards might have on other planets in a system. For example, could investiture perhaps overflow from Roshar and supercharge the magics on the planet nearby.

Another interesting note that comes to mind is the state of the worlds we know Odium has visited. 
Sel is rather well off, for example, and Threnody's main issue seems to be its magic and possibly whatever effect Ambition has had there.

With all of that expected to have happened far in the past relatively close to the time the first desolation happened, wouldn't we expect Ashyn should be showing similar signs of recovery? Particularly given that his focus is on the Shards.
 
This could raise the question of whether or not Ashyn's current state is as a result of Odium's binding though.

[ROSHtaFARian2.0]

Hmm, I'm not sure I'm understanding your point correctly? Are you saying that if this all happened so long ago that Ashyn would be more recovered than what we've seen in Brandon's readings of Silence Divine?

If so, I'd disagree, because look at Mistborn and how long Scadrial existed in a state of near ruin beneath clouds of volcanic ash with limited resources and a stagnant culture after The Lord Ruler used the power of the Well. It really just depends on 1) the nature of a cataclysm and 2) the resources a civilization has to apply towards recovery in its aftermath, more so than the actual length of time since a cataclysm. Since we're talking about magical events, we can't apply the same logic and timelines that we would to a natural disaster such as a fire or earthquake on our world, where yes, eventually people will recover. If the cataclysm on Ashyn was sufficiently destructive AND paired with the fact that by my theory of Ashyn's magic, it was drastically reduced once all three Shards had departed from it and taken most of their Investiture with them, I would argue it makes total sense that even with thousands of years passing since that point, civilization on Ashyn is still limited to just a few flying cities high over its surface where the survivors of the cataclysm concentrated their remaining resources and magic. They might have had enough to survive but not enough to make substantial alterations to however their planet had been affected, etc.

As far as Investiture overflowing from nearby Roshar and supercharging Ashyn's ambient magic as a possibility, I concede its definitely possible, but I think its unlikely given that everything we know about Shards Investing in a Shardworld suggests that it's not easily done and carries some consequences for the Shard such as binding them to that world to various degrees. We also know it has a lot to do with the way a Shardworld's magic system is shaped, with the resulting magic being born of the interaction between Shards and planet. With all that in mind, this is just a gut impression but it does seem to me that the relationship between magic, Shardworlds and Shard Investiture is more intimate than simply regional, and that an overflow like you're describing is possible but doesn't really match. I don't know. I apologize, I can't really articulate any better than that at the moment why I'm opposed to this idea, it just doesn't feel quite right and I think I need to think about it some more before I can put my finger on why.

Edited November 27, 2017 by ROSHtaFARian2.0

[Sairys]

Given what we've seen of other shardworld, yes, I expect they would have recovered more.

Regarding Scadrial, it was like that for 1024 years, looking at some timelines this falls between the previous desolation and the beginning of the stormlight chronicles, so that's thousands of years.

It's also a different situation. Different Shards are involved, most of their issues revolved around one human who didn't know what he was doing reacting to all of the problems he was causing.
The global problems were resolved by Harmony and civilisation hits the point it's at in Mistborn 2 around 300 years.

The closest comparisons are Sel and, to a degree, Threnody. 
Odium doesn't appear to have any real interest in making the worlds he passes uninhabitable and, aside from splintering the shards, he doesn't appear to make any really permanent changes to them.

His moves in the Stormlight chronicle seem like he's trying to force himself free, which could enable him to destroy Cultivation and would likely result in him immediately leaving Roshar to hunt down another Shard. Leaving a third world that Odium has left without similar devastation to Ashyn.

Just really makes Ashyn feel different.

I think another thing that's sticking in my mind is the Ashyn theory requires Honor to abandon a world. To break oaths and bonds to that world and travel to another. 
Similarly, it seems as though that would also mean a relatively short time if Odium chases them to Roshar where the Singers seemed to already revere them as Gods.

Edited November 27, 2017 by Sairys

[Fezzik]

@Sairys, I feel like half of your post is redundant.