[OB] Ars Arcanum Surprise!

[+Wax]

Spoiler

Ancient scholars also placed the ten orders of Knights Radiant on this list, alongside the Heralds themselves, who each had a classical association with one of the numbers and Essences. I’m not certain yet how the ten levels of Voidbinding or its cousin the Old Magic fit into this paradigm, if indeed they can. My research suggests that, indeed, there should be another series of abilities that is even more esoteric than the Voidbindings. Perhaps the Old Magic fits into those, though I am beginning to suspect that it is something entirely different.

10 levels of voidbinding?  Why the 9 shadows then?

All those niners are just for the unmade only then?

[Ryder]

I think Nazh is just incorrect. Doesn’t Venli or someone mention that there are nine levels of voidbinding?

[+Wax]

4 minutes ago, Ryder said:

I think Nazh is just incorrect. Doesn’t Venli or someone mention that there are nine levels of voidbinding?

Not sure.  Can’t find that quote.

I think Nazh wouldn’t write something if he wasn’t sure of it.

 

[Argent]

The "ten levels of Voidbinding" line has been in each Stormlight Ars Arcana - and the number ten does make sense, considering that the Voidbinding chart has two sets of ten circles. Venli says there are nine different types of Fused, if I recall correctly, so I think something else is going on here.

[aemetha]

I agree with @Argent

Void/Surge binding is related to the surges. Odium's holy number might be nine, but that doesn't change that there are still ten surges to be manipulated by the binders. The exact manifestations of the surges may differ in some ways as evidenced by Dalinar and the Stonewardens not applying the same surge in the same manner, but the surges themselves seem to be related to a more global mechanic than simply the holy numbers of the Shards concerned.

[WalksIntoMordor]

I'm with aemetha in that the levels of voidbinding are supposed to be the surges, not the orders.

That said, there's also another possibility: they don't have a spren to forge the 10th order.

Presumably, this order would be the equivalent of their Bondsmiths, who are limited in number.  There may never have been a tenth order (yet) because there isn't an appropriate voidspren yet - the order should exist, but doesn't (and perhaps, that's part of what Odium was trying to do to Dalinar - corrupt him into his Bondsmith).

[emailanimal]

4 minutes ago, WalksIntoMordor said:

That said, there's also another possibility: they don't have a spren to forge the 10th order.

I am thinking along the same lines.   We probably need to go back and see what types of Voidbinding we have seen (both in terms of surges and in terms of Fused forms - which should be the equivalent of the KR orders).  Definitely "Windrunners" and "Edgedancers", but also "Stonewards".

 

The thing that Dalinar pulls off at the end of the book - I suspect that this may be something that bonded by Voidspren cannot do, so theoretically they may be missing a Bondsmith-style order.

 

Also, do we know of a relationship between the Unmade and the forms of the Fused?

[aemetha]

I don't know if the unmade are analogous to the fused in the same way the heralds are to the radiants. The numbers don't add up, nor do the characters we've seen. For starters, three of the unmade are essentially mindless, only reacting to stimulus without conscious deliberation. They certainly aren't capable of leading and guiding in any orderly fashion.

[Ryder]

Aha! I found the part where I got 9 from. It’s from OB chapter 121 (page 1190). Moash says 

Quote

A Fused strode past, covered in carapace armor as brilliant and wicked as Shardplate. There were nine orders of them. Why not ten?

I suppose this could just mean that Moash has only seen 9 orders, and hasn’t spotted the 10th yet. 

[Nicrosil]

Something also interesting to note is that the Fused we've seen using Surges only use one Surge. We've only seen them fly, with Gravitation and become awesome with Abrasion. Then there are the Fused who just seemed stronger than normal and have a lot of carapace... are there Fused who don't use Surges, or did those Fused just have a form with lots of carapace that happened to not use their Surges? Or are they an order equivalent and their strength/carapace is an application of a Surge we don't know yet?

[Ansalem]

2 hours ago, Nicrosil said:

Something also interesting to note is that the Fused we've seen using Surges only use one Surge. We've only seen them fly, with Gravitation and become awesome with Abrasion. Then there are the Fused who just seemed stronger than normal and have a lot of carapace... are there Fused who don't use Surges, or did those Fused just have a form with lots of carapace that happened to not use their Surges? Or are they an order equivalent and their strength/carapace is an application of a Surge we don't know yet?

Personally, I believe the Fused who were growing and using their carapace in strange ways were using the Surge of Progression. Their carapace doesn't just do that, it's a Surge. It may also be used for muscle growth, but that's less evident.

[Elsecaller3414]

4 hours ago, aemetha said:

I don't know if the unmade are analogous to the fused in the same way the heralds are to the radiants. The numbers don't add up, nor do the characters we've seen. For starters, three of the unmade are essentially mindless, only reacting to stimulus without conscious deliberation. They certainly aren't capable of leading and guiding in any orderly fashion.

As far as I can tell, the unmade are spren, and so they are not at all what the Heralds are to the Radiants. However, I do think that the Fused that are the leaders, like the one that bonded to the body of Venli’s once-mate, could possibly be similar to the Heralds, but for Voidbringers.

Edited November 19, 2017 by Elsecaller3414

[masaru]

On 11/18/2017 at 3:42 PM, axcellence said:

Not sure.  Can’t find that quote.

I think Nazh wouldn’t write something if he wasn’t sure of it.

 

FYI: Khriss writes the Ars Arcanum, not Nazh.

[+Wax]

On 21/11/2017 at 1:54 AM, masaru said:

FYI: Khriss writes the Ars Arcanum, not Nazh.

I knew it but didn’t recall it, until an earlier post by @Rydersaid Nazh and I thought, OK, go with that.

But @Ryder did pick up the 9 quote by Moash as well.

@Argent - thanks for pointing out the repetition in WoR and WoK.

This got mentioned in the Oathbringer typos section (particularly the repetition bit) and Peter will bring it up with Brandon!

EDIT: FWIW - The voidbinding chart has 10 symbols... so I dunno.  My original question was around 9 unmade vs. 10 orders...

 

 

Edited November 21, 2017 by axcellence

[Matt Snow]

On 11/18/2017 at 6:10 PM, WalksIntoMordor said:

Presumably, this order would be the equivalent of their Bondsmiths, who are limited in number.  There may never have been a tenth order (yet) because there isn't an appropriate voidspren yet - the order should exist, but doesn't (and perhaps, that's part of what Odium was trying to do to Dalinar - corrupt him into his Bondsmith).

I was thinking something similar to this, maybe the tenth order of Voidbinding is only usable by humans. I have basically no evidence for this besides the fact that we haven't seen the 10th order of Fused. I actually started thinking about it when I realized that Odium was going to "turn" Dalinar and use him as the leader for his forces, because why would he need a human champion when he has an army of Parshmen (besides the use of turning the leader of his opposition, taking away a Bondsmith, etc.). I also started to think that maybe Moash will eventually be what Dalinar was supposed to be.

[Youngy]

I don't understand why they'd say ten levels if they were analogous to orders though...

What if the it goes as the following

1. No form

2. Standard form - lesser spren and singer

3. Storm form and it's equivalents - odium spren and singer

4. Fused - singer and singer

x. Thunderclasts and equivalent - singer and earth

x. Araman - unmade and host???

x. Unmade ???

[Calderis]

Considering the significance of "The Page" we know that Voidbinding relates to Renarin and Glys. 

The 9 types of Fused are not indicative of what voidbinding is, we just know they have access to its version of the surges.