[OB] Ishar: insane, misguided, or working for Odium?

[dantlee]

 

So, after much speculation, it turns out that Tezim is indeed Ishar, Herald of the Bondsmiths. As discussed in the two threads below (where I've compiled most of the textual references to Ishar and Tezim), it seems fairly clear that the Herald is quite mad. The Stormfather seems to confirm this in OB: 

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The Windrunners were named only after Ishar founded the orders.

"Ishi'Elin," Dalinar said. "Herald of Luck."

Or of mysteries, the Stormfather said, or or priests. Or of a dozen other things, as men dubbed him. He is now as mad as the rest. More, perhaps. 

... "Do you know where they are?" 

Only one, he said with a rumble. I... have seen Ishar. He curses me at night, even as he names himself a god. He seeks death. His own. Perhaps that of every man. 

... "Tezim, the god=priest of Tukar? Is it him? Ishi, Herald of Luck, is the man who has been waging war against Emul?" 

Yes. 

"For what purpose?"

He is insane. Do not look for meaning in his actions. 

We know from Edgedancer that Nale received faulty information (that massacring surgebinders would prevent another desolation) from Ishar, yet seems to trust him deeply even by the end of Oathbringer, long after he knew Ishar was wrong. Furthermore, he oddly claims that Ishar is the only herald who survived their torture in damnation with his mind intact: 

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"I used to be able to feel, Szeth-son-Neturo. I used to have compassion. I can remember those days, before..." 

"The torture?" Szeth asked. 

He nodded. "Centuries spent on Braize - the place you call Damnation - stole my ability to feel. We each cope somehow, but only Ishar survived with his mind intact." 

And interestingly, Ash's first instinct upon seeing Taln's fleeting sanity is to go to Ishar for help: 

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Talenel'Elin had broken like the rest of them. 

Ishar, she thought. Ishar will know what to do. 

 

So, despite the fact that Ishar seems to be gallivanting about as a capricious, self-absorbed warlord god in his spare time, has blatantly lied to Nale multiple times, and came up with the idea of condemning Taln to 4 millennia of solitary torture in the first place, the heralds still trust him deeply. The question is, why? I see a few options.

 

1) Nale and Ash are also insane, and therefore unable to see Ishar for the man he has become, so they trust him as the Bondsmith Herald (and I think it's fair to speculate that came with some kind of leadership position) and mastermind they knew and fought alongside for thousands of years.

2) Ishar is sane, but has betrayed Honor and allied with Odium, perhaps because he has come to believe that he was always on the wrong side of the fight. With the knowledge that surgebinding destroyed the humans' world before their mass relocation to Roshar, I think this line from Words of Radiance makes much more sense: 
 

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"But as for Ishi'elin, his was the part most important at their inception; he readily understood the implications of Surges being granted to men, and caused organization to be thrust upon them; as having too great power, he let it be known that he would destroy each and every one, unless they agreed to be bound by precepts and laws." - WoR Chapter 42 Epigraph 

 

 

 

It seems Ishar was always wary of granting surgebinding to men, knowing full well how poorly that had worked out before. After seeing the death of Honor, the recreance, and finally breaking at Aharietiam, he may have decided that men were not worthy - or too dangerous - to live on Roshar. He is thus working to kill or turn the other heralds - for example, I believe the Odium-knife that killed Jezrien may have been created with help or knowledge from Ishar (I find it highly suspicious that Odium was never able to permanently kill the Heralds in all the thousands of years and many desolations he endured, and now suddenly discovered that ability). Nale was convinced to severely hobble the forces of Honor on Ishar's advice, and he seems to have decided to support the Parsh upon visiting Ishar between Edgedancer and OB. 

3) Ishar is insane, but has moments of lucidity when speaking to the other heralds, and has not betrayed Honor. He may genuinely have believed that killing surgebinders would prevent a desolation, but was simply incorrect - as we've heard so many times, this desolation is distinctly different from all the others that came before.

 

I'm sure there are tons of other possibilities I haven't thought of, but I buy heavily into the idea that Ishar has turned to Odium's side. I do think by the end of the first half of SA Ishar will be a prominent antagonist, and we'll see just how influential he's been behind the scenes.

Thoughts? 

Edited November 18, 2017 by dantlee

[aemetha]

I think Ishar's particular brand of insanity is extreme narcissism. He no longer cares about the fate of others, only what he himself can get from it. Like all narcissists he manipulates the others around him to achieve his own ends. I think he is definitely working with Odium now, Nale kind of confirms that. The odds are stacked in Odiums favour at this point, and he has thrown his lot in where he sees the most personal gain for himself.

[Elsvette Mintyfresh]

Why not both?

 

It seems very likey that Ishar is both insane and working for Odium.

[Billahollic]

I just can't see how (insane or not) any of the heralds could actually believe that killing proto-radiants would stop the desolation if a herald breaking is what starts it? How could people bonding spren cause Taln to break? 

[IndigoAjah]

41 minutes ago, Billahollic said:

I just can't see how (insane or not) any of the heralds could actually believe that killing proto-radiants would stop the desolation if a herald breaking is what starts it? How could people bonding spren cause Taln to break? 

I'm not sure they were sure that the Oath would hold with only 1 Herald, that there might be another way of it starting. ANd they are insane

[aemetha]

17 hours ago, Billahollic said:

I just can't see how (insane or not) any of the heralds could actually believe that killing proto-radiants would stop the desolation if a herald breaking is what starts it? How could people bonding spren cause Taln to break? 

Well killing radiants appears to have been a later development, likely after Ishar became insane. I think since he now advised Nale to side with Odium, it's likely he simply manipulated them into paving the way for Odium's return and that was his end game for a while.

[Erunion]

I think Ishar wants to be free of the Oathpact. My guess is that he broke, hard. 

I bet that Odium has made a deal with him - help me out and in exchange you will never suffer again. Possibly he was promised oblivion. 

[Storyspren]

Crazy Conspiracy Option:

Ishar is sane, has an agreeable end game in mind, and is the biggest liar in the whole series apart from Hoid. 

The stormfather isn’t on board with Ishar’s goals, and thinks Ishar is crazy because of either the goals/means or becaus ishar has deliberately deceived the storm father and others (being, on this theory, the second biggest liar ever apart from Hoid). 

[AerionBFII]

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CCQI just read Edgedancer. I was just wondering... Did Ishar deceive Nalan on purpose or was he just wrong-- he had wrong information?

Brandon Sanderson All the Heralds are insane.

CCQ Okay.

Brandon Sanderson  It manifests in different ways. Do not trust anything any Herald says. Ever.

CCQ Okay.

Brandon Sanderson Nale trusts Ishar too much.

CCQ Okay, but so did he do it on purpose, or...?

Brandon Sanderson Um... So "on purpose" is a difficult thing when you're referring to someone with the psychology that Ishar has.

CCQ Did he know what it was-- that it was a lie?

Brandon Sanderson *sighs* Alright, I'll RAFO that until I get to him, but the answer is kind of a yes and a no. Okay? So there is part of him that knows and there is part of him that doesn't want to believe it. And yet the things he's been doing lately in Roshar are done because he knows what's coming.

It's pretty much pure speculation until we finally see him. This is currently the best we have to go on regarding his intentions but it seems bad if he is switching sides, Ishar was the 'go to guy' if you were a Herald and you had a problem or needed advice, Ash wanted to take Taln to him when she found him.