[OB] Kaladin's Character Progression

[mariapapadia]

@Starla this is good post and I feel like everyone had a great input. I know a lot of people where annoyed at Kaladin being "Superman" in the previous books, I didn't mind it at all, but it was good to see other people take care of him for a change. How Adolin took him after he blocked in battle, how Rock saved him and how Syl said that he should let someone else save him, those were really touching moments for me. I don't think he hates himself like Teft, Shallan or others, but he definetly doesn't love himself. So I liked that he got a break from saving everyone to focus a bit more on working on himself and I feel like he is starting to be a bit more forgiving with himself. 

Unfortunately as the books progress I think we'll see less of him, as different charaters will need more page time. One thing that bothered me in OB in regards with his character : I got the vibe that he was being groomed for something else, like ascending or becoming Honor or something along those lines, which I don't want to see. I want him to find hapinness and peace, not eternal(not even that) life. 

[IntentAwesome]

On 11/19/2017 at 0:05 AM, WhiteLeeopard said:

Thats very likely, and it follows the previous pattern. Wandersail was the story of WoK, but it was not fully explored till WoR (Szeth's arc). Although I have a hard time wrapping my head around how the Girl Who Looked Up can be made to fit the next book even more than this one. Maybe by dealing with the issue they discovered this book (parsh were in Roshar first).

I love that not only has Wandersail applied really well to some individual story arcs—not only Szeth, but I would say Kaladin and Moash as well, especially Moash in OB—but that it applies on a larger scale. Really, Wandersail is a representation of how Odium's gets to people. He tells them to hand over responsibility for their mistakes and their acts of cruelty. They don't have to feel guilty or feel pain, because they can let Odium be responsible. And that's how he lures them into even worse cruelty. I think we will probably see some more applications of The Girl Who Looked Up as well.

On 11/19/2017 at 5:51 AM, Nef said:

One thing that OB really delivered for me was the fact that we got to see a lot more of Kaladin through the viewpoint of other characters, something that I wanted more of in WoR . By WoR he had already demonstrated extraordinary acts of heroism and leadership and yet when he showed up in other characters POVs it always seemed strange to me that it was hardly acknowledged. We get a lot of "Kaladin Acknowledgement"  in OB and it really did stir my heart as Kaladin fan.

I'm not sure I agree with this. I was surprised at how frequently all of the other main characters still referred to Kaladin as just the "bridgemen," not Kaladin or Kal, or even Captain or Windrunner, but bridgemen. I wondered if Brandon was intentionally making it clear that despite everything Kaladin has done, he's still an outsider to the whole Kholin-radiant group.

Though I did appreciate the perspectives of Kaladin from Bridge Four. I thought it was amusing that they don't hero worship Kal quite as much as Kaladin thinks they do, but that they do still respect him a great deal.

[WhiteLeeopard]

10 minutes ago, IntentAwesome said:

I'm not sure I agree with this. I was surprised at how frequently all of the other main characters still referred to Kaladin as just the "bridgemen," not Kaladin or Kal, or even Captain or Windrunner, but bridgemen. I wondered if Brandon was intentionally making it clear that despite everything Kaladin has done, he's still an outsider to the whole Kholin-radiant group.

I'm pretty sure by this point among the Kholins bridgeman for Kaladin is very much a term of affection. I did also get the vibe that most people perceive Kaladin as someone closer to herald/god status than normal human being. Its less evident from radiants of course, but non-radiants leave this overall impression on their povs.

[IntentAwesome]

16 minutes ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

I'm pretty sure by this point among the Kholins bridgeman for Kaladin is very much a term of affection. I did also get the vibe that most people perceive Kaladin as someone closer to herald/god status than normal human being. Its less evident from radiants of course, but non-radiants leave this overall impression on their povs.

I think that's definitely true of Adolin, maybe even Elhokar and Dalinar. But Navani, Jasnah, Shallan? It came across as very dismissive to me.

I didn't really notice the impressions from the non-radiants, other than Bridge Four. Guess I'll have to re-read. What a shame! 

[Starla]

2 hours ago, mariapapadia said:

Unfortunately as the books progress I think we'll see less of him, as different charaters will need more page time. One thing that bothered me in OB in regards with his character : I got the vibe that he was being groomed for something else, like ascending or becoming Honor or something along those lines, which I don't want to see. I want him to find hapinness and peace, not eternal(not even that) life. 

I've wondered about this too. Perhaps it has to do with Jezrien dying in this book, or Honor's Champion or something more. I've also wondered about his relationship with Syl. Several of her comments over the three books sounded like she was looking for him specifically, rather than a random Windrunner-y type person. She said in this book that she was waiting for him to call for her. She is one of the few (only?) spren left from before the recreance, and probably the closest to Honor. She was one of the first spren created by the stormfather after Honor was killed and the SF became his cognitive shadow, and the other Honor spren seem to hold her in high regard, since they had everyone in Shadesmar looking for her. The fact that she ran away and risked losing herself to bond Kaladin against the will of the Stormfather and other Honor spren seems important. Also, there is also a WOB where someone told Brandon that he named his son Kaladin, and he hopes he doesn't regret it by the end of the story, and Brandon says something like "you'll be very happy naming your son that." This has always given me hope that, at the very least, he won't become Odium's Champion. 

I'm not sure how I would feel about this if he becomes more than a radiant. Sometimes I have a tendency to like overpowered bad chull super hero types, but I also love his interactions on a human level and wouldn't want to see that disappear. Whatever happens, I think Kaladin, Dalinar, and Shallan's presence in the next two books will be about the same as they have been in the last three, then diminish in the back five.

39 minutes ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

I'm pretty sure by this point among the Kholins bridgeman for Kaladin is very much a term of affection. I did also get the vibe that most people perceive Kaladin as someone closer to herald/god status than normal human being. Its less evident from radiants of course, but non-radiants leave this overall impression on their povs.

I think it is a term of endearment too, especially coming from Adolin. Though I was surprised that Dalinar referred to him as "bridgeman" to Amaram.

@IntentAwesome Did Jasnah call him bridgeman? I don't recall that. She must have picked up the bad habit from her cousins. I kind of like it. 

 

Edited November 20, 2017 by Starla
To clarify a sentence. And lol at my first "chull."

[Subvisual Haze]

The biggest problem is that Kaladin doesn't have a full character arc in this story.  He is presented with a problem (how can I protect the good people on both sides of this conflict?), he experiences a rising action punctuated by personal failures to resolve this problem, and then the book ends...

Did Kaladin actually grow as a character in this book?  I don't think so.  Mind you, "growth" doesn't need to be as dramatic as swearing the next ideal of a Windrunner, but some sort of growth would have been nice.  Ultimately the Kaladin we had at the end of Oathbringer is pretty much the same Kaladin we had at the end of Part One.

In fact we barely have any internal development in Kaladin's chapters.  I was struck at many points by how little dialogue Syl has in this book.  Syl and Kaladin debating the nature of right and wrong, and both growing as people (Syl intellectually, Kal morally/emotionally) was one of my favorite aspects of the first 2 books.  Those talks between them are almost entirely absent from Oathbringer!  The little dialogue we do get from Syl is largely exposition about her past.  That felt like a pretty big letdown for me.

[IntentAwesome]

2 hours ago, Starla said:

I think it is a term of endearment too, especially coming from Adolin. Though I was surprised that Dalinar referred to him as "bridgeman" to Amaram.

@IntentAwesome Did Jasnah call him bridgeman? I don't recall that. She must have picked up the bad habit from her cousins. I kind of like it. 

 

I was starting to wonder if I had actually just made all this up in my head, so I did a search on my Kindle. Jasnah does call Kaladin bridgeman while she is arguing with him, so that was intentionally derogative, I would say. Navani and Dalinar also refer to Kaladin as bridgeman. Interestingly, I found that Shallan calls him bridgeman more often than anyone else, and that is probably where I was getting the dismissive attitude from. It's like she was trying to compensate for Veil's attraction to Kaladin by being rude/dismissive of him. After Shallan, Adolin calls him bridgeman most frequently. Sometimes it seemed like a term of affection, sometimes (especially when is talking to Shallan) it did not. So, based on that, I now think it was intentional to increase the tension of the love triangle, but maybe not necessarily with the rest of the Kholins.

[Starla]

Thanks for looking up those stats @IntentAwesome. Obviously Dalinar doesn't mean "bridgeman" in a derogatory way, and I doubt Navani and Jasnah do either. I wonder if the term is changing in meaning? The original function of the bridgemen is now obsolete since the war on the shattered plains is over. All of Sadeas' bridge crews now have a place of honor amongst the Kholin army. The bridgeman salute has become a sign of respect amongst the regular soldiers. Many of the bridgemen are proud of their time carrying bridges, as shown in the wonderful scene of the last bridge carry in Oathbringer. Maybe "bridgeman" is now a symbol of a person who went through hell and survived, sort of an honorific title?

That said, I don't think Shallan means it as a term of respect. I think Adolin's use is affectionate, especially when he uses "bridgeboy" as opposed to "bridgeman." 

ETA: Speaking of nicknames, I also found it nice that the Stormfather called Kaladin "Stormblessed" when talking to Dalinar at one point. I think that's high praise coming from overprotective grumpy dad. 

Edited November 21, 2017 by Starla

[Egomere]

57 minutes ago, Starla said:

ETA: Speaking of nicknames, I also found it nice that the Stormfather called Kaladin "Stormblessed" when talking to Dalinar at one point. I think that's high praise coming from overprotective grumpy dad. 

I agree that I think Bridgeman might slowly be transforming into an honorific. (especially as we're now getting Lighteyes and high nayn ranked Darkeyes clamouring to join the Bridge Crews (which are still mentioned as bridge crews despite not having bridges anymore).

and in regards to the quote : damnation I must have missed that my read through... Nice to see the Stormfather's paying attention now and seems to be mellowing towards his feelings for humans.

[minima]

For me it is stronger that Kaladin didn't swear the Fourth Ideal than if he did. I wanted it so much, but it is just so human. Even if he knows these words he isn't ready to say it. There is a difference between knowing something and accepting it.

He lost so many people he cared about. He have to deal with it. To accept it. To forgive himself. It's like Lirin said - You can't protect everyone, you have to let it go. For every surgeon or any other physician it is very important to learn that people die. That you can't save everyone. And I think that Kaladin refuses to admit that Lirin was right.

And those who he lost - of course he could just swear Fourth Ideal but what about grief? If you lost someone in real life time is needed to cure you. Even if someone tells you - it's time to deal with it - maybe sometimes it helps, but most of the time it won't work. Sometimes little things will make difference - like just that someone is near you someone that you could count on like Bridge Four for Kaladin. And sometimes it is better when you lose than when you win like when he can't swear the Fourh Ideal.

And there is this thing that Kaladin said to Theft when he swore Third Ideal - That it won't make any difference, that it won't solve all problems. That you have to deal with your dark side anyway.

I don't think he didn't grow in Oathbirnger - he knows that he can rely on other people, that he isn't alone any more, that he can make mistakes, that even if he won't make right choices it could end well anyway. And that makes him stronger. And maybe he could deal with his problems and make decisions.

[Angsos]

Jasnah might the first to remove the safehand covering since I don't see female radiants with shardplate, having one arm pinned to their armor

[tmnsquirtle]

On 8/18/2018 at 6:56 PM, Angsos said:

Jasnah might the first to remove the safehand covering since I don't see female radiants with shardplate, having one arm pinned to their armor

That's an interesting thought, actually. Will the shardplate gauntlets count as appropriately conservative clothing for radiants? Or will it be scandalous since you can see their fingers?

[Scion of the Mists]

Many darkeyed women (who have to work for a living) use a glove instead of a sleeve.  

[Angsos]

Considering their country is almost completely conquered, queen Jasnah is a heretic, Dalinar is more than a heretic, I'm thinking other lighteyed women will just tell the church to storm off. Then you have Navani, while not a Radiant, she is married to said more than a heretic Dalinar.

[tmnsquirtle]

21 hours ago, Scion of the Mists said:

Many darkeyed women (who have to work for a living) use a glove instead of a sleeve.  

Yeah, but even that is considered less proper IIRC.

Jasnah wearing shardplate combines a bunch of impropriety:

-Extremely highly ranked lighteyes (also, royalty - making her somewhat of a figurehead, even if she doesn't care about that, so people will gossip regardless)

-The action of using plate, while not explicitly masculine, is culturally connected to war. So it probably carries some masculine implications with it.

-Using a glove instead of a sleeve is considered a lower class way to dress.

Jasnah won't care about any of this, but I'm interested to see how/if sanderson addresses the cultural issues.

[Nymeros]

On 11/18/2017 at 0:03 PM, Starla said:

Note the results of his specific plot threads:

Hearthstone (Fail/No Impact/Unresolved)

Parshmen (Fail/Unresolved)

Kholinar (Fail)

Protect Dalinar (Fail/Low Impact)

Fourth Ideal (Fail)

Amaram (Fail)

Shallan (Fail/No impact)

Mental Issues (Progress/No Impact/Unresolve)

So, do you understand that the main theme for the book is failure?

[Vissy]

4 hours ago, Nymeros said:

So, do you understand that the main theme for the book is failure?

Congratulations, you just came up with the most convenient excuse of them all.

[Toaster Retribution]

I think there is a point to the failures, and I will keep saying: Kaladins OB-arc was great. This is the logical next step to his arc. He has saved people, he has gotten over his bias against lighteyes, he has handled his depression, he has become a powerful Radiant, and confronted Tiens death and his parents. Things were, at the end of WoR/beginning of OB, going pretty good for Kaladin. So failure is what is needed to give him new problems to solve, and new conflicts to face, to keep him interesting. And the fun thing about Kal and failure is that there are few things that go as bad together. If there is one problem Kaladin has always had, it is failing. But in this book, we see that he has learned to handle that as well. After all his failures in OB, he is still feeling okay when the book ends. Despite losing a ton of people he cares about and, in Elhokars case, was sworn to protect, despite failing to swear an oath, despite failing to best Amaram, he is feeling good. Kaladin in OB progresses through failure, just as Dalinar does. It is a theme for the book. Notice how the characters who go through failure and come out stronger (Kaladin, Teft, Dalinar) are the heroes of Oathbringer, while the ones who can’t handle it (Moash and Amaram) turn to Odium. Kaladins arc is defenitely letting him grow as a person, by showing that he can handle failing, and is also tied into the theme of the book. That is why it works so well.

[Nymeros]

5 hours ago, Vissy said:

Congratulations, you just came up with the most convenient excuse of them all.

An excuse for what?

[CosmicSieve]

On 8/18/2018 at 2:57 AM, minima said:

I don't think he didn't grow in Oathbirnger - he knows that he can rely on other people, that he isn't alone any more, that he can make mistakes, that even if he won't make right choices it could end well anyway. And that makes him stronger. And maybe he could deal with his problems and make decisions.

Well said. Personally, I loved Kaladin's arc in Oathbringer. He finally accepted that if he failed and someone saved him, it was a good thing. Having to have help isn't about being a failure, it's about having good people looking out for you. He was able to accept that Bridge Four had already saved him. As have a lot of other people in the past. He's just had a hard time accepting it. I don't think Kaladin powering up and solving everything on his own would have led to character growth for him. 

Edited August 22, 2018 by CosmicSieve

[minima]

I think that Kaladin must build some basis inside him for another hard times. Something to hold on when everything is falling apart - and I think that something like that might happen maybe when everybody finds out what happened with Elhokar and Moash when Kaladin swore Third Ideal.

Failures make you stronger because when you reach the bottom and you can do two things - give up or fight. And even with his depression he fights. That is amazing.

[Vissy]

5 hours ago, Nymeros said:

An excuse for what?

If the point of a character arc is failure, it's effectively placing it beyond criticism. But a character arc with only failure and no resolution is not an arc, it's a set-up to a character arc.

[Greywatch]

35 minutes ago, Vissy said:

If the point of a character arc is failure, it's effectively placing it beyond criticism. But a character arc with only failure and no resolution is not an arc, it's a set-up to a character arc.

I don't agree. Not all character arcs need to be positive, and positive growth as a person is not the be-all requirement to count as an arc.

[wotbibliophile]

I loved all of Kaladin's scenes in OB. I loved how he took steps to fight his depression, I loved his defense of the Singers, I loved the Bridge 4 POVs of him, and I loved that he couldn't say the 4th ideal. I do expect he will say the 4th ideal, eventually.

2 hours ago, Greywatch said:

2 hours ago, Vissy said:

If the point of a character arc is failure, it's effectively placing it beyond criticism. But a character arc with only failure and no resolution is not an arc, it's a set-up to a character arc.

I don't agree. Not all character arcs need to be positive, and positive growth as a person is not the be-all requirement to count as an arc.

I agree a bit with both of you. I think an arc can be about failure, but if it is then it is quite disappointing and depressing. I also think Kaladin's arc in OB is set up for what comes next. Not sure a character arc of failure is beyond criticism. If Kaladin had died in OB, I would have a lot of criticism. I would say things like this is pointless; this was a waste of my time.

Kaladin is by far my favorite character in SA. If the books were all Kaladin all the time, I would like them more. I would not miss Dalinar or Shallan. I also would have loved to see Kaladin say the 4th ideal and save the day. I do not get tired of it. I do not think it is over done or boring. I totally don't care if it is predictable. I love Kaladin. 

[Nymeros]

3 hours ago, Vissy said:

If the point of a character arc is failure, it's effectively placing it beyond criticism. But a character arc with only failure and no resolution is not an arc, it's a set-up to a character arc.

What makes you feel that failure isnt a valid resolution to a plot or character arc? It takes skill to pull it off without leaving the audience dissatisfied but still.