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The Unfallen One

[OB] Azure and her 'shardblade'

56 posts in this topic

I would certainly agree with the fact that the sword is sentient. However, I would ask whether or not this requires someone from Warbreaker to make it so. There are other ways to make such an object, aren't there? And how do the wounds fit the lesser effect of Nightblood? Azure's blade turns the skin grey, correct? Nightblood completely destroys whatever he attacks. I've been told this is because Nightblood simply destroys the aspect of something in all three realms. So... how is this similar to Azure's shardblade? Does it just destroy the Cognitive aspect of someone, or just the Spiritual aspect? I would also agree that it definitely isn't a spren blade (thought those are sentient too). It definitely wasn't made on Roshar.

Also, doesn't everything have a spren? A spren is its identity, right? But perhaps if it was made on a different world, its identity would not manifest as a spren. But isn't there a way to drain something of identity? On Scadrial, you can do that. I wonder if you can do it anywhere else. Maybe that is why it has no spren (but I seriously doubt it).

(I find the best way to prove a theory is similar to what Wax said about honor:

"It's the place a theory goes to be strung up, flayed within an inch of its life, then cut down and left in a desert. If it survives something like that, it'll be stronger than hell."

The harder you try to disprove an idea and the more it resists, the better and stronger that theory will become. So I really like this theory, and I'm trying to disprove it to prove it.)

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25 minutes ago, Krypton Savant said:

There are other ways to make such an object, aren't there? And how do the wounds fit the lesser effect of Nightblood? Azure's blade turns the skin grey, correct?

And that is what happens to someone who unshelth partially Nightblood (that start to feed of the Soul but without his full intensity).

Maybe you could remember a priest from Warbreaker who hide his arm because helding Nightblood made it lose all color and become greyish.

About Azure's sword's spren...probably the Sword sees itself as a Sword. it is surelly aware enough to have a proper mind and therefore has an active role in shaping his own Cognitive Aspect.

About the "everything has a spren" this is extremely false, it's a common knowledge in Roshar, but it's false

 

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What are the beads in Shadesmar? (They're not spren, right?)

And what does have spren? Sentient things?

Don't remember that priest, but I'm sure you're right. Ok.

 

Actually, I just found a quote from Brandon Sanderson that completely blows away all doubt of this being true.

  Quote

Q: What happened to Vivenna?

A: She's looking for Vasher. Keep your eyes wide open when reading Oathbringer.

 

Also, I have heard both that Vasher is Nin and that Vasher is Zahel. Anyone know what's going on there?

Edited by Krypton Savant
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9 hours ago, Krypton Savant said:

Also, I have heard both that Vasher is Nin and that Vasher is Zahel. Anyone know what's going on there?

Zahel is Vasher. 

 

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I don't think Azure is Vivenna. 

I think it's Shashara and she came back / worldhopped after death (for the second time, since she is Returned), sort of like Kelsier did in the Mistborn novels. 

Shashara would know the knowledge of how to make another sword, like she promised the Honorspen on Honor's Path. Also, Shashara is a known Worldhopper (http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=1182#63) and is Vasher's equal / wife / one of the 5 scholars, so I think it's a more compelling storyline.

Is there any hard evidence, comments from B. Sanderson that I missed that mean it's Vivenna?

Edit: I am wrong. Shashara is dead, and it's a final death since Nightblood kills on all 3 realms.

Edited by LordJedue
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@john203, thanks!

Edit: Also, it was pointed out to me that Shashara is dead, and it's a final death since Nightblood kills on all 3 realms. 

Edited by LordJedue
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9 hours ago, LordJedue said:

@john203, thanks!

Edit: Also, it was pointed out to me that Shashara is dead, and it's a final death since Nightblood kills on all 3 realms. 

We don't know if Vasher killed her with Nightblood.
And also in this case, it's still debate's argument by Cosmere's Arcanists if someone killed by Nightblood's full power is completelly to the point to not reach the Beyond

Edited by Yata
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Just now, Yata said:

We don't know if Vasher killed her with Nightblood.

I'm reasonably sure that the conversation between Nightblood and Vasher in Warbreaker confirms that Nightblood should know that Shashara is dead. Why would he know this unless he was involved in killing her?

Also, re: Azure = Vivenna, other than the WoB, we also have the following two pieces of evidence:

1. Azure seems to have the Royal Locks (her hair blanches white a few times in Shadesmar). This doesn't rule out Shashara, since Denth also had the Royal Locks, but it does make it much likelier.

2. Azure has a conversation with Adolin about the duty of kingship, and about how one of her wisest decisions was choosing not to become Queen. This conversation is the one that causes Adolin to push for Jasnah as the Alethi queen. This is a reference to Vivenna's arc in Warbreaker.

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1 minute ago, yahas said:

I'm reasonably sure that the conversation between Nightblood and Vasher in Warbreaker confirms that Nightblood should know that Shashara is dead. Why would he know this unless he was involved in killing her?

Nightblood could be there bot not be the weapon used to kill her. If he was...it could be did without remove his cover so no 3 Aspects destroyed.

By the way, I am not saying Nightblood wasn't used to kill her, simply we don't know

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4 hours ago, Yata said:

Nightblood could be there bot not be the weapon used to kill her. If he was...it could be did without remove his cover so no 3 Aspects destroyed.

By the way, I am not saying Nightblood wasn't used to kill her, simply we don't know

Actually, we pretty strongly do. Although the person isn't directly identified, it seems fairly likely that it's talking about Shashara.

Quote

Anyway, Nightblood is named for the smoke he leaks, and he originally had a different name when he was created. Vasher himself dubbed the sword Nightblood after he had used it to kill the woman he loved.

- Warbreaker, Chapter 51 Annotation [Source]

 

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I am in the camp of vivenna/azure created the new sword.  In warbreaker she intuits commands before having the heightening to do so.  She is a natural born awakener.  So even if she didn't learn the method from vasher, it is entirely possible that she figured it out.  She also might have had help from nightblood in the command since he likes her.

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2 hours ago, Hiadin Haloun said:

I am in the camp of vivenna/azure created the new sword.  In warbreaker she intuits commands before having the heightening to do so.  She is a natural born awakener.  So even if she didn't learn the method from vasher, it is entirely possible that she figured it out.  She also might have had help from nightblood in the command since he likes her.

That is far above her natural intuite.

Everyone with a lot of Breath will start to understand intuit Commands. But Nightblood is far above everything we saw so far. Also Returned can't easily figure out the method. Vasher also with his sperimentation and the past Breath's count....still don't complete understand Nightblood's existence

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2 hours ago, Yata said:

That is far above her natural intuite.

Everything she has done has been far above the level of intuition she should have had.  Vasher even comments on how far above her level she should be.  after only a small amount of time she has almost perfected commands that Vasher uses as a professional, commands we don't see other fighters using.  Not only that but she never held enough to intuitively know the commands.

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6 hours ago, Hiadin Haloun said:

Everything she has done has been far above the level of intuition she should have had.  Vasher even comments on how far above her level she should be.  after only a small amount of time she has almost perfected commands that Vasher uses as a professional, commands we don't see other fighters using.  Not only that but she never held enough to intuitively know the commands.

That is because she has a bit of Divine Breath inside of her.

What I was trying to explain you is that she is below any regular Returned in this regard and Nightblood's creation was well above the skill of beings with tons of Breath and quite genius in Awakening (Neither Vasher knows the details on Nightblood's Awakening). Without considerate the simple fact, that Awakening a Nightblood-like sword will need to the Awakener to have at least 20.000 Breath to have the right Heightening only to try the task.

If someone explains her the process, I could see her uses it (also if again this will require at least 20k Breath) but she developing the Type4's process alone is extremelly unlikely

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OK, here are my thoughts.

A. Not everything has a spren. Everything has a cognitive element. Like the flames of mankind. How do we know this? Because we see those in MBSH. However, remember that Spren are Splinters of Honor, Cultivation, and Odium. If a world doesn't have Splinters in the CR, then it can't have spren. So I doubt Vivenna's sword would have a spren.

B. Without any doubt Azure is Vivenna. She is wielding a Type IV awakened object. She fits the description. Her hair changes color. She is a Worldhopper. She recognized Zahel's description. She knew Zahel's Kata. Which means that she was trained by Zahel. She is looking for both Nightblood and Zahel. She spoke of turning down power and not being Queen.

C. Who made the sword depends on how and why Vivenna and Vasher split up. Did they get in a fight? Did Nightblood get stolen and they split up to cover more ground? Maybe Nightblood got stolen and then Vivenna and Vasher worked together to make this new blade? Maybe Vivenna started working against Vasher and got Yesteel to help her, then backstabbed him for the sword. Or maybe they made two more swords, and she got to keep one while Yesteel got the other. We don't really know. And I doubt we'll know until after Nightblood comes out.

D. Do we know if using Nightblood 2.0 drains you of Investiture?

E. Do we know how much time has elapsed between Warbreaker and SA1?

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@Brightlord Maelstrom

A, B - Agree at 100%

C - Indeed her Blade could be made by everyone.I only believe the Type 4's crafting process is beyond Viv's skill. I believe she could craft one if someone else explained the process to her but not be able to figure out it alone

D - Nothing in the text seems to imply a Investiture draining and neither an Attive-Passive's switch for the Blade. This made me think that Azure's Blade is a superior Type-4 than Nightblood. An affordable and not suicide weapon designed after the Roshar's Shardblades

E - Only that the possible timeframe is under the 300 years but this only because 341 years pass between HoA and AoL and both WB and TWOTK happen in the meanwhil

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On a side note, anyone have any ideas on why she wrapped cloth around her arm before using her blade? Was she using an awakened cloth to strength her arm or was she using the cloth to hide the corruption creeping up her arm?   

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Just now, shadowwisp said:

On a side note, anyone have any ideas on why she wrapped cloth around her arm before using her blade? Was she using an awakened cloth to strength her arm or was she using the cloth to hide the corruption creeping up her arm?   

It could be either. For the strengthening her arm idea, I'd want to look at the description of the sword and see how big it is. If it is described as being massive, or comparable to a Shardblade in size, then that makes sense. If it's normal sized, then I'd lean towards the corruption idea.

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42 minutes ago, shadowwisp said:

On a side note, anyone have any ideas on why she wrapped cloth around her arm before using her blade? Was she using an awakened cloth to strength her arm or was she using the cloth to hide the corruption creeping up her arm?   

Could be that and could be simple a way to protect her exposed arm from counterattacks

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1 hour ago, Brightlord Maelstrom said:

 If it is described as being massive, or comparable to a Shardblade in size, then that makes sense.

Well, if it's anything like Nightblood, it might deceptively heavy. Like the opposite of Sprenblades. 

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7 hours ago, shadowwisp said:

On a side note, anyone have any ideas on why she wrapped cloth around her arm before using her blade? Was she using an awakened cloth to strength her arm or was she using the cloth to hide the corruption creeping up her arm?   

I was wondering if she has any similarities to a certain priest from Elantris and his arm :) probably a stretch though. 

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