[OB] The third Bondsmith and Urithiru

[FirstSelector]

On 11/18/2017 at 8:44 AM, OrinCordus said:

I really like the idea of the Sibling being related to stone for several reasons.

This is pretty interesting idea, but there is a small problem.  If we look at WoR I-10, it appears as though the Shin Stone Shamans can communicate with the spren of stones:

Quote

The Voidbringers are no more, they had told him.
The spirits of the stones themselves promised it.
The powers of old are no more.
The Knights Radiant are fallen.
We are all that remains.

Now, this is far from conclusive evidence, but the tense structure seems to imply that the "promising" happened relatively recently.  We might reasonably guess that the Sibling went into hibernation about the time of the Recreance, so that this quote means that it was possible to talk with the stone spirits after the event.  If the Sibling was indeed revered by the Shin as a "god" for being connected to the stones, it would be strange indeed that their "god" would have vanished more than two thousand years ago.

[Volts]

The Sibling is related to Stormfather and Nightwatcher/Cultivation. So it has something to do with storms and growth.

It is also associated with Urithiru. Urithiru strata are described to look like layers of dried crem. But it is located above clouds and storms.

Similar description applies to Kholinar windblades aswell, and these are certainly not natural formations.

Other unnatural formation might be Shin mountains. People were given this land to stay there, and then were separted. So they were given land without storms (Stormfather), with soil (Nightwatcher), and unnatural mountains (?).

The Sibling is cremspren

Crembrother

[Awesomness]

I'm totally buying this theory.

If Urithiru works as a big big fabrial... could this Sibling be the one that allowed ancient fabrials, like soulcasters and regrowth, to be created?

Navani is close to discover how this fabrials work 

[Blacksmithki]

On November 18, 2017 at 9:43 AM, Rikkick said:

Page 1015 in my book in the chapter where Kal is trying to get Captain Notum to let Syl out of confinement “The stormfather creates only a handful of children. All of these, save Sylphrena, were destroyed in the recreance, becoming deadeyes...snip...”

”it was only recently, even by your reckoning, that the ancient daughter was rediscovered. Asleep.”

 

This part struck me as important.

I guess this is what happens when you don't Re read part one, read 2-5 in ten hours and can't re read the whole book because someone else is reading it. I forgot pretty much that entire thing.

[Subvisual Haze]

Thank you for all your hard work in compiling this theory!  I had many of these thoughts bouncing around my own head and I agree pretty much 100% with your final presentation 

The great remaining question is why did The Sibling withdraw in the first place?  Did humanity injure it somehow?  Did Honor command it to stop binding men and powering the tower when he was going through his raving "surgebinders will destroy the world" final days?

A related question: are the oathgates a sub-system of Urithiru itself?  The giant guardian spren at the Thaylen Oathgate state they were essentially commanded to remain inactive.  Was this order from Honor?  Or The Sibling itself when it went to sleep?  Is this a command that Dalinar can override now that he has Ascended?

[sword_nimi]

On 11/18/2017 at 11:44 AM, OrinCordus said:

*snip*

Someone likens Urithiru's passageways to the tunnels through the Windblades in Kholinar - this may be where the Sibling has gone to slumber?

What if that is why the Fused are dismantling Kholinar? Maybe it has nothing to do with the wee Cryptic Hoid scoops up. 

[hoser]

Wow!  This thread was a fantastic read.  I learned so much!  Upvote to the OP!  Gloryspren for everybody involved!

I feel reluctant to wade in when others have clearly thought about this more.  But I like learning from my mistakes, so here goes nothing. 

What would the third Honorable superspren be?  From the manifestation of Honor's Perpendicularity, I presume gloryspren to be the minor spren associated with Bondsmiths (this seems obvious enough  that someone must have deduced it before) like windspren are associated with Windrunners.  This may explain why Syl accepts windspren around Kaladin, but finds gloryspren annoying.  

Spren occur when cognitive beings personify a concept (yeah, this is loose.  Feel free to correct me, I don't mind).  Could a spren related to a gloryspren have arisen to personify Surgebinding or the Knights?  The highstorms are clearly manifest and the Old Magic can be sought out.  But Urithiru did not exist before the Knights formed (I assume). 

speculation

Let's suppose a gloryspren takes on the cognitive association with Surgebinding and then the Knights.  Maybe the listeners already have an association with the surges based on their closeness to the CR.  Would this spren be dependent on the reputation of the Knights?  The winds just blow and don't care if I'm mad about my house being blown down.  But what happens to an evolved gloryspren that everyone reviles? 

The following quote from the OP seems to fit. 

Quote

Something is happening to the Sibling. I agree this is true, but the division among the Knights Radiant is not to blame. Our perceived worthiness is a separate issue. — From drawer 1-1, third zircon

After the last Desolation, the Knights don't have much purpose.  They persist, but their achievements and existence gets associated with human politics rather than being glorified for helping survival.  What does the lack of glory do for the Sibling? 

At some point, the Sibling leaves Urithiru.  Did it start sleeping then?  Did it retreat to the Cognitive Realm?  Was it no longer practical to grow crops there?  Did the Oathgate fees have to rise to compensate for the costs of feeding people there?  The knights also abandoned Urithiru.  I would guess there is an association.  After the Recreance, the Knights are despised.  Is that then too much for a poor gloryspren to take?

Syl was asleep and lost in the CR.  She woke up.  The Sibling doesn't seem to be lost, but is known to be asleep.. 

Where is it now?

Guessing the obvious, three places come to mind in the Cognitive Realm:

1. The place physically associated with Urithiru
2. The capital of glorysprenland (if there is one).  It could be the same as 1.
3. The place physically associated with the monastery that maintained Dawnchant and tWoK.  Possibly the last place that the Knights were glorified. 

Does it wake up when the Knights are again needed and helpful?

/speculation

Do I think this is correct?  Eh, I hope Brandon has come up with something more interesting than this.  This is just extrapolation.  But maybe it will help someone come up with something better. 

[kmosiman]

What about the power source for the city? 

While we don't know exactly what happened when Honor was splintered, his Perpendicularity was missing. When Dalinar reformed it, all of the nearby gems became infused. While Honor's Shardpool may be at the Origin; Origin could also be a non-shard related power source. If this is the case, then Honor's Shardpool and Perpendicularity could have been located in Urithiru. Either that or the Bondsmiths provided a direct link to the power, which is why 1 of them needed to be in the city at all times. As Honor was slowly splintered, the power fueling the city would have faded slowly as well. When Honor died, the city died with him.

I know that this doesn't account for Cultivation's portion, but she may have needed to withdraw her power when she went into hiding or she may have been unable to maintain the city on her own.

[bridgemenspren]

On 11/17/2017 at 1:37 AM, FirstSelector said:

As a postscript, in my mind I imagine the Sibling as a huge warrior in Shadesmar, fighting off the influence of the Unmade.

@FirstSelector

Why not Rock? He's all about nurturing, helping people strengthen their Connection and Identity, which I imagine are the strongest ways to fight the Unmade.

[digitalbusker]

@hoser, I don't think we have any evidence that nonsapient spren (and the Gloryspren do appear to be nonsapient, not the type to build cities or have a capital) can mutate into higher forms in the way you're describing.

It might turn out it's just really rare, in which case you can point to this thread as evidence of your genius, but right now it doesn't seem likely.

And even if a nonsapient spren could take on greater power I'd expect to wind up with something like Cusicesh, rather than something at a level with two spren deliberately created by Shards. Although I suppose it's possible the Shards decided to Invest the self-uplifted spren rather than create a new one from scratch.

[teknopathetic]

On 2017-11-17 at 8:52 AM, Billahollic said:

I had the same thoughts on the Sibling being a child of honor and cultivation. However the way that the Stormfather refers to the Sibling in the plural makes me think that he's speaking of Cusicesh with the many faces

I took this as the sibling having no gender - them is used are a neutral singular pronoun nowadays. 

[hoser]

On 11/22/2017 at 8:48 AM, hoser said:

...

speculation

Let's suppose a gloryspren takes on the cognitive association with Surgebinding and then the Knights.  ...

 

23 hours ago, digitalbusker said:

@hoser, I don't think we have any evidence that nonsapient spren (and the Gloryspren do appear to be nonsapient, not the type to build cities or have a capital) can mutate into higher forms in the way you're describing.

Yes.  it's called speculation because there isn't evidence.  But consider the Stormfather.  Adonalsium visits Roshar, leaving highstorms, listeners and maybe humans, Herdazians, Horneaters and Aimians.  Cognitive beings personify the highstorms.  Either an existing spren (perhaps a windspren) or a new spren takes on the cognitive load and becomes the Stormfather.  With increased investiture, the Stormfather develops sentience and perhaps sapience.  Before Tanavast passes on, he invests the Stormfather and charges him with accepting words and playing the visions.  If he wasn't sapient before, he becomes sapient then.  This is basically compatible with my speculation.  

Quote

It might turn out it's just really rare, in which case you can point to this thread as evidence of your genius, but right now it doesn't seem likely.

There are only 2 superspren that we know about and we don't really know their history.  That is the definition of extremely rare.  We can speculate or wait for Brandon to tell us.  What is the point of deciding how likely speculation is?  I was speculating to encourage more speculation.  

Quote

And even if a nonsapient spren could take on greater power I'd expect to wind up with something like Cusicesh, rather than something at a level with two spren deliberately created by Shards. Although I suppose it's possible the Shards decided to Invest the self-uplifted spren rather than create a new one from scratch.

Given the way Shallan describes Urithiru as undrawable, maybe the Sibling is related to a Cryptic.  

There you go!  See, speculation is fun and interesting.  Welcome to the party!  

Edited November 28, 2017 by hoser
add Cryptic speculation, clarify new spren possibility

[geeklady]

I am super new to posting on this site, so bare with me, but in addition to your theory, I think we need to look at the Eila Stele and what it contains:

Quote

They came from another world, using powers that we have been forbidden to touch. Dangerous powers, of spren and Surges. They destroyed their lands and have come to us begging. We took them in, as commanded by the gods. What else could we do? They were a people forlorn, without a home. Our pity destroyed us. For their betrayal extended even to our gods: to spren, stone, and wind. Beware the otherworlders. The traitors. Those with tongues of sweetness, but with minds that lust for blood. Do not take them in. Do not give them succor. Well were they named Voidbringers, for they brought the void. The empty pit that sucks in emotion. A new god. Their god. These Voidbringers know no songs. They cannot hear Roshar, and where they go, they bring silence. They look soft, with no shell, but they are hard. They have but one heart, and it cannot ever live.

the most important part to my point is the section I put in bold. The gods listed were spren (cultivation), wind (stormfather/honor) and stone (??). I think this alludes to the fact that the unknown god spren will be related to a god of stone. I think other people have mentioned the Shin religion. I think they may be onto something 

[echaozh]

On 11/22/2017 at 3:51 PM, Volts said:

The Sibling is related to Stormfather and Nightwatcher/Cultivation. So it has something to do with storms and growth.

It is also associated with Urithiru. Urithiru strata are described to look like layers of dried crem. But it is located above clouds and storms.

Similar description applies to Kholinar windblades aswell, and these are certainly not natural formations.

Other unnatural formation might be Shin mountains. People were given this land to stay there, and then were separted. So they were given land without storms (Stormfather), with soil (Nightwatcher), and unnatural mountains (?).

The Sibling is cremspren

Crembrother

Hmmmmm. The Aimians are sons of the moons. The Aimians are cremlings. The Sibling may be the first Aimian who was also made up of cremlings. Very sound theory I think.

[The Survivor]

@kmosiman I'd guess it's the Bondsmiths who are the links to both Honor's Perpendicularity and the source of power that would have powered Urithiru, especially considering that, as @FirstSelector pointed out that

Quote

we learn that one Bondsmith "was in continual accompaniment of Urithiru." (WoR Ch 44 epigraph)

And while we don't know the state of the perpendicularity before Honor's death, note that Dalinar not only reforged the perpendicularity, but also closed it:

Quote

"Dalinar had closed his perpendicularity, however. He had been the storm, and had somehow recharged the spheres." (OB, Chapter 120)

I already can't wait to learn more about this in the next book. (LOL Sanderson has the most impatient fans, despite being a freakin' Sanderbot and ultimate Shard of EVERYTHING). Here's just a few things I'm interested to see:

Can Dalinar now summon Honor's Perpendicularity at any given time and recharge spheres? Perhaps the power needs to re-form or re-charge over a period before he can summon it again, just like the highstorm does? And...

Is this last Sibling and Bondsmith pair the only one that could power Urithiru, or can Dalinar do it by acting as a highstorm again to charge the tower? 

[Fourth Of The Night]

11 hours ago, The Survivor said:

Can Dalinar now summon Honor's Perpendicularity at any given time and recharge spheres? Perhaps the power needs to re-form or re-charge over a period before he can summon it again, just like the highstorm does?

I don't have my book handy, but I believe Dalinar supercharges Kaladin when he goes off to search for the Kholinar survivors.

[Fulminato]

15 hours ago, The Survivor said:

@kmosiman I'd guess it's the Bondsmiths who are the links to both Honor's Perpendicularity and the source of power that would have powered Urithiru, especially considering that, as @FirstSelector pointed out that

And while we don't know the state of the perpendicularity before Honor's death, note that Dalinar not only reforged the perpendicularity, but also closed it:

I already can't wait to learn more about this in the next book. (LOL Sanderson has the most impatient fans, despite being a freakin' Sanderbot and ultimate Shard of EVERYTHING). Here's just a few things I'm interested to see:

Can Dalinar now summon Honor's Perpendicularity at any given time and recharge spheres? Perhaps the power needs to re-form or re-charge over a period before he can summon it again, just like the highstorm does? And...

Is this last Sibling and Bondsmith pair the only one that could power Urithiru, or can Dalinar do it by acting as a highstorm again to charge the tower? 

Kaladin flew across the churning ocean. Dalinar had been able to summon the strength to overcharge him with Stormlight, though it was obviously exhausting to do so.

Chapter 122

[turklemuffink]

Spoiler

 

Ok, so here's a thought (and maybe I'll get shut down) but what if the bondsmith spren are actually the moons?? Hear me out:

1. The image of Ishar in oathbringer has the three moons very prominently behind him with Nomon in the center.

2. There are a lot of references and stories told about the moons which has to mean they are going to be important somehow. 

3. Perhaps the stormfather was originally Nomon and then became what he is now when Honor died. It's possible that such a large moon might cause strange weather patterns and tides. Perhaps he's the father as in he is causing the storms. I don't know if there are any allusions to connect the storms and the moons but it might be possible... AND maybe a loose connection but the blue child born to Tsa who became the first blue Natan person- His father was Nomon (father) and the storms do seem to hit natanatan first.. Just saying.

4. The moons are constantly being personified throughout the books. What if the third moon is the sleeping sibling? Or maybe, the nightwatcher is the third moon (she seems pretty crafty) and salas is sleeping?

This might be a stretch, and some parts of the theory are a bit loose but... I dont know. What do you guys think? Am I crazy?

Edited December 11, 2017 by turklemuffink

[Sirrion]

What if we're not taking Stormfather literally enough? We know that 'Slumbering' is used to describe the state of the spren when their Knight dies, at least in Syl's case. I agree it's likely that happened to the Sibling too (my first thought on reading the conversation between Dalinar and the Stormfather). We also know it caused Sly a great amount of pain.  But what if the Stormfather was being absolutely literal when he say 'You hurt them enough'. What if Dalinar  killed the Bondsmith? That one would have been the first KR to arise since the Recreance, and could have stopped it but they were killed by Dalinar, thus sending that third spren  into slumber. 

 

Now, who do we know would fit that perfectly? Who also got mentioned quite a lot in the book? I propose that the third Bondsmith (actually the first) was Evi. I'll have to go back an do rereads after I finish (I had to get this out before I forgot about it) and see why her and her brother were exiled, as well as read her interactions and see how they compare to Dalinar's abilities and such. But it would make sense to me given her attitude. And it would make Stormfather's words make more (literal) sense, in that Dalinar was the one to cause the Sibling pain, not humanity as a whole. 

[USS bridge four]

Hey I just came up with this jackpot theory what if Sigizl is going to be a Bondsmith.  How he talked about Prostitution as imitating Oaths and how he wants to guide people. This is highly unlikely but still this could happen. 

[aemetha]

1 hour ago, USS bridge four said:

Hey I just came up with this jackpot theory what if Sigizl is going to be a Bondsmith.  How he talked about Prostitution as imitating Oaths and how he wants to guide people. This is highly unlikely but still this could happen. 

I kind of see Sigzil as a different kind of windrunner. One that identifies more strongly with the leading aspect rather than the protecting aspect the others seem strongly drawn to. You could put Rock in that category too.

[Gribbet]

I also like the idea of the Sibling being related to stone, it gives more of a reason for the Stonewards and Bondsmiths powers to affect primarily/only stone.

[Leuthie]

There was always a Highstorm that Honor Invested to become his.  There was always an ecosystem that Cultivation invested and became hers.  There was always the World - the stone, the crem - that they both invested to become their child.  Stormfather continues to ride the storm, doling out Honors Investiture.  The Nightwatcher learns by listening and providing boons and curses (don't know much else about that one).  Their child powered Urithiru, protecting and nourishing with the joint powers of Honor and Cultivation.  They currently sleep after having something done to them by those they once sheltered.

Fin

[+Wax]

There's 2 suspicious characters that we can think about...

 

• The large figure who walks during the storms - see multiple references in WoR and the Dalinar dinner flashback in Oathbringer
• The third image of the man with the blue disc that Shallan discovered in the underground library.  The other two images were of Honor and Cultivation.

 

[+Hoiditthroughthegrapevine]

On 11/18/2017 at 8:13 PM, RShara said:

Another hint might be in the murals on the walls:

Quote

The art on the walls was more enigmatic. A solitary figure hovering above the ground before a large blue disc, arms stretched to the side as if to embrace it. Depictions of the Almighty in his traditional form as a cloud bursting with energy and light. A woman in the shape of a tree, hands spreading toward the sky and becoming branches. 

Honor is there.  The woman in the shape of a tree is likely Cultivation.  So the solitary figure hovering above the ground *might* be Odium, but that doesn't really seem like a good representation of him.  Could it be the Sibling instead?

The more I think about this, the more I think that there is definitely something to this. The mosaic is in the Holy Urithuru engine room, the heart of the beast more or less, and there were always no more than 3 bondsmiths, so the depiction of 3 avatars of divinity seems very important.

I also think that the referral to the Sibling in plural is important, like @Billahollic noted.

I also think that the reason given by the oathgate spren to not let Shallan and co transition back to the physical realm because "they are locked by word of the parent" as noted by @Ryder is important too.

So preface aside, here is the theory. We know from Brother Kasbal's very slick demonstration, that some of the major cities on Roshar are built along cymatic patterns. The reason they are built around Cymatic patterns is because the actual physical geography of the land has been created in a cymatic pattern. We know that there are cymatic patterns for Kholinar, Vedenar, Thaylen City, and Akinah (in Aimia). We also know that there are Oathgates in those cities as well....So here is the theory, what if the Oathgates and Urithuru itself are remnants of Adonalsium's original investiture in Roshar, and that some cognitive shadow of Adonalsium is the focus for these separate pieces of Adonalsium's investiture just as the Stormfather is focus of the splinters of honor that are honorspren? Might the sibling then be the primary focus for these remnant splinters of Adonalsium (like the oathgates, possibly the greatshells)? If this was true then the Sibling bondsmith would not only be master of the Living city of Urithuru, but could also be master of the Oathgates as well (and possibly be able to utilize the investiture focusing potential of the Rosharian greatshells too boot).

Another possible reason that the the Kholinar wind blades and the Tower city of Urithuru are similarly described as being crem covered might be that prior to the shattering of Adonalsium the High storm reached Urithuru as well. It's a pre-shattering feature of Rosharan ecology that the rain contains crem, a vital vector for the nutrients necessary to sustain life in a world without soil.  The salient feature of Vedinar that is mentioned (which is probably the cymatic manifestation of Adonalsium's original creation) are the shelf like ridges, might these also be covered with crem (which would imply, in this context, a certain similar AGE, a certain definitive time of creation that was in the far, far distant past?)

So, my speculative money is on the Sibling being a focus for the other leftover splinters of Adonalsium on Roshar, and further that we've seen the splinter onscreen in OB (Chapter 19, Subtle Art of Diplomacy):
 

Quote

Dalinar glanced and saw something luminous in the distance: a gargantuan figure that moved on spindly legs

I think that the references to the Sibling sleeping are merely that it has reverted (like Syl and pattern) to a mindless state due to it's lack of a bond. From this scene and the Kaladin/Shallan chasm scene where they see something similar, it seems that somehow the Stormfather is protecting it within the nexus of the highstorm. We know from Kaladin SF scenes that at the center of the highstorm you really are in the spiritual realm (because of the pressure of investiture most likely), so this is probably how the very protective and Brotherly storm father has been protecting the sibling since the last bond smith that was bonded to him/her/them died.