[OB] The third Bondsmith and Urithiru

[Seonid]

9 hours ago, taxilian said:

..... he *specifically* ended the comment with "Cusicesh is one of the sapient spren.".  How do you get "Cusicesh is a level above the sapient spren" from that?

I would assume that if anything spren like Syl and Pattern (who can form a nahel bond) are that intermediate step, being a level above other sapient spren.

He does not say Cusicesh is a sapient spren. You say that in your paraphrase,  but I believe that to be a misinterpretation of Brandon's words. He says (my paraphrase) "there is a level of spren between Stormfather/Nightwatcher and sapient spren,  and this is what Cusicesh is." The phase "this is what Cusicesh is" refers to the intermediate level,  and not to the immediately preceding phrase "sapient spren." Sapient spren is part of the parenthetical statement used to define the intermediate step where Cusicesh belongs.

As additional evidence, to be sapient means possessing human level of intelligence. There are no known spren that have these attributes that are not radiantspren or higher.

[ScavellTane]

The third bondsmith spren is Urithiru.

[Rikkick]

The third sibling is “sleeping”. 

Syl was also “sleeping “ after her previous bond holder died rather than forsaking the oaths. Something interesting with the descriptions used about these things. My own suspicion is that the previous Bondsmiths for this sibling died, leaving it in the same shocked state Syl was in. Until Syl woke up, Stormfather thought she was dead. 

 

[Blacksmithki]

3 hours ago, Rikkick said:

The third sibling is “sleeping”. 

Syl was also “sleeping “ after her previous bond holder died rather than forsaking the oaths. Something interesting with the descriptions used about these things. My own suspicion is that the previous Bondsmiths for this sibling died, leaving it in the same shocked state Syl was in. Until Syl woke up, Stormfather thought she was dead. 

 

I interpreted his belief that she was dead as him believing that she had bonded with a KR not because she was sleeping, you would think they know the difference between "sleeping" and being a dead-eye.

[Rikkick]

4 minutes ago, Blacksmithki said:

I interpreted his belief that she was dead as him believing that she had bonded with a KR not because she was sleeping, you would think they know the difference between "sleeping" and being a dead-eye.

Page 1015 in my book in the chapter where Kal is trying to get Captain Notum to let Syl out of confinement “The stormfather creates only a handful of children. All of these, save Sylphrena, were destroyed in the recreance, becoming deadeyes...snip...”

”it was only recently, even by your reckoning, that the ancient daughter was rediscovered. Asleep.”

 

This part struck me as important.

[FollowYourMuse]

Great information. 

I agree that the sibling was the spren of Urithiu. But I do not think it was trapped, I think we learn with the oathgate spren that ancient fabrials were an agreement, bond not captivity.

[OrinCordus]

I really like the idea of the Sibling being related to stone for several reasons.

1. This provides three powerful spren for three fundamental forces/objects in Roshar. The storm, living beings and the ground.

2. Urithiru is carved almost like it was out of one piece of stone (I can't find the exact quote but the stone, strata and general make-up of Urithiru is mentioned in OB many times)

3. The Shin worship the Stone as holy, but there is no reason for this in our current understanding of Roshar.

Someone likens Urithiru's passageways to the tunnels through the Windblades in Kholinar - this may be where the Sibling has gone to slumber?

Edited November 18, 2017 by OrinCordus

[ParadoxicalZen]

I recall a line from the later parts about the "of the Spren, the Wind and the Stone". (can someone with the e-book check this please?, my mind is still reeling from finishing the hardback) I took the Wind and Stone part to mean the Stormfather and Nightwatcher and the Spren to mean that the Sibling was representative of them. I originally had thought it was located in/under Urithiru but I'm liking the idea that it IS Urithiru more.

[taxilian]

14 hours ago, Seonid said:

He does not say Cusicesh is a sapient spren. You say that in your paraphrase,  but I believe that to be a misinterpretation of Brandon's words. He says (my paraphrase) "there is a level of spren between Stormfather/Nightwatcher and sapient spren,  and this is what Cusicesh is." The phase "this is what Cusicesh is" refers to the intermediate level,  and not to the immediately preceding phrase "sapient spren." Sapient spren is part of the parenthetical statement used to define the intermediate step where Cusicesh belongs.

As additional evidence, to be sapient means possessing human level of intelligence. There are no known spren that have these attributes that are not radiantspren or higher.

Hah, you're correct.  That's what I get for writing theories late at night, I totally read the wrong thing :-P My bad, and apologies!

Okay, I see what you're saying now.. you're right, that could be read in that way.  Interesting.

That does still put Cusicesh a level below SF/NW, and I still don't think he's the third bondsmith spren... but yeah.

[Billahollic]

Anyone have any idea why the Stormfather twice refers to the Sibling in the plural?

"Leave them alone. You have hurt them enough." 

He says this to Dalinar on two separate occasions. 

[Ephemera]

8 minutes ago, Billahollic said:

Anyone have any idea why the Stormfather twice refers to the Sibling in the plural?

The spren of the oathgates are pairs. Maybe multiple spren compose Urithiru.

[sword_nimi]

11 minutes ago, Billahollic said:

Anyone have any idea why the Stormfather twice refers to the Sibling in the plural?

"Leave them alone. You have hurt them enough." 

He says this to Dalinar on two separate occasions. 

I assumed it was to avoid indicating the spren’s gender, honestly. 

[Ryder]

The spren of the Thaylenah oathgate mention they are locked because of a request by their parent, who is no longer around.  I don’t have the exact quote handy right now. Maybe the Sibling was responsible for the creation of the oathgates. That would fit I think with the Sibling being related to Urithiru somehow, as all of the oathgates meet there. 

Editing to include the exact quote.  

Quote

We are the gatekeepers, the two enormous spren said to Shallan, speaking with voices that overlapped, as if one.  Though their mouths did not move, the voices reverberated through Shallan.  Lightweaver, you have no permission to use this portal.

    "But I need to get through," Shallan cried up to them.  "I have stormlight to pay!"

    Your payment will be refused.  We are locked by the word of the parent.

    "Your parent?  Who?"

    The parent is dead now.

This to me reads like the "parent" could be either Honor or (maybe) the Sibling.  Perhaps it's more likely to be Honor because the Stormfather says the Sibling only slumbers, and we know Honor was killed.

Edited November 18, 2017 by Ryder

[Wandering Investor]

17 hours ago, KidWayne said:

I mean if Odium can corrupt the Oathgate spren, well then it stands to reason that they could have corrupted the Stormfather if he hadn't merged with Honor (you know, because he was all angry at the KR for the Recreance like Malata's & Venli's spren are now).

This raises the question of how the Oathgate spren compare to others. Where did they come from, how strong are they, etc? Also, does their mental outlook contribute to whether they can be corrupted, or is it pure strength alone?

[Seonid]

4 hours ago, taxilian said:

That does still put Cusicesh a level below SF/NW, and I still don't think he's the third bondsmith spren... but yeah.

Absolutely right. I should have clarified that I completely agreed with your conclusion concerning Cusicesh,  and I just disagreed with your interpretation of the WoB.

[marianmi]

it's possible that the Sibling is not of Honor or Cultivation, but one native Rosharan spren

so you have 4 factions: honor, cultivation, odium, and the spren that were before the shards came. since Sys says that some of them have 4 genders, maybe there's some similar weird reason why Stormfather refers to the the Sibling as "they" ...

[RShara]

Another hint might be in the murals on the walls:

Quote

The art on the walls was more enigmatic. A solitary figure hovering above the ground before a large blue disc, arms stretched to the side as if to embrace it. Depictions of the Almighty in his traditional form as a cloud bursting with energy and light. A woman in the shape of a tree, hands spreading toward the sky and becoming branches. 

Honor is there.  The woman in the shape of a tree is likely Cultivation.  So the solitary figure hovering above the ground *might* be Odium, but that doesn't really seem like a good representation of him.  Could it be the Sibling instead?

[FirstSelector]

5 hours ago, sword_nimi said:

I assumed it was to avoid indicating the spren’s gender, honestly. 

I agree entirely.

 

As for the blue disk, I think that it is instead a representation of Cultivation's Perpendicularity.  Recall that (Elantris spoilers):

Spoiler

In Elantris, under the big magical city there is also a room and library that were not built with the rest of the structure.  There is also a person standing in front a of a large blue oval, which is widely regarded as a representation of Devotion's Perpendicularity.

 

[RShara]

55 minutes ago, FirstSelector said:

I agree entirely.

 

As for the blue disk, I think that it is instead a representation of Cultivation's Perpendicularity.  Recall that (Elantris spoilers):

  Hide contents

In Elantris, under the big magical city there is also a room and library that were not built with the rest of the structure.  There is also a person standing in front a of a large blue oval, which is widely regarded as a representation of Devotion's Perpendicularity.

 

But why would there be a depiction of Cultivation, Honor, and then a person standing in front of Cultivation's perpendicularity?  Should I branch this off into a new thread?

[FirstSelector]

Perhaps, though it's still relevant here.  Urithiru was the stronghold created by Honor and Cultivation for the Radiants, and a big part of being Radiant is Shadesmar.  Actually, that painting could be for both Perpendicularities - it's just difficult to find and use Honor's.

[The Invested Beard]

As this is one of my biggest questions going forward I am very interested in what people think here. I like the original theory a lot and could see it going in a Stone based spren or Urithiru itself definitely. I really do think whatever happened to The Sibling had to do with the recreance as well what with the Stormfather saying the Radiants had hurt them enough already.

[ScavellTane]

Recreant Bondsmith = Melishi

Could what happened to Syl and her previous Radiant happened to Melishi and Sibling.

Melishi was on his/her way to deal with the wicked thing of eminence. Perhaps he failed and that's why the Radiants had to abandon Urithiru.

Edited November 19, 2017 by ScavellTane

[Ytsken]

I just reread the chapter 'Strength ' and it struck me.... wouldn't Navani be the perfect person to bond the Sibling? She literally thinks "She had no problem being a wife and mother to monarchs, but to be one herself -- storms, what a dark path that would lead them all down." 

She is also the one who's very interested in Fabrials, we get a reminder how she's dealing with getting Urithiru to work on a day to daily basis... And if the hints we get about the Sibling are true, its Bondsmith is bound to the Tower. With other fabrials... the spren is always the one bound, but with the Sibling... the human is bound to one place as well. And who knows what being bound to the Sibling and running the city might do to one's psyche, or physique (I'm getting Babylon 5 Machine flashbacks now). Whomever bonds the Sibling would thus have to be someone who is willing to make this sacrifice but also capable of understanding what it takes to run a city-state. And this chapter... imho it does suggest Navani could do this.

[FirstSelector]

9 hours ago, Ytsken said:

I just reread the chapter 'Strength ' and it struck me.... wouldn't Navani be the perfect person to bond the Sibling?

I have actually been kicking around the "Navani becomes a Bondsmith" idea for a while.  I more or less agree with your points, plus adding the part where Navani herself thinks that (OB Ch 104) "had some practice holding a kingdom together."  I would not be surprised to see Navani going on a grand quest to get Urithiru running so that the grand coalition doesn't fall apart, and this attracting the Sibling.

There's also the symmetry between her and Dalinar's "forbidden" relationship (supposedly offensive to the gods) and Honor and Cultivation's "forbidden" relationship (actually offensive to other gods).

[kaellok]

On 11/18/2017 at 8:44 AM, OrinCordus said:

I really like the idea of the Sibling being related to stone for several reasons.

1. This provides three powerful spren for three fundamental forces/objects in Roshar. The storm, living beings and the ground.

2. Urithiru is carved almost like it was out of one piece of stone (I can't find the exact quote but the stone, strata and general make-up of Urithiru is mentioned in OB many times)

3. The Shin worship the Stone as holy, but there is no reason for this in our current understanding of Roshar.

Someone likens Urithiru's passageways to the tunnels through the Windblades in Kholinar - this may be where the Sibling has gone to slumber?

3.  The Shin also, in general, keep to the lands that were given to humans when they landed on Roshar.  There they have actual soil, grass, etc., which they walk on freely.  Their beliefs are likely based at least in part on a corrupted version of the agreement of their settlement in the first place.

Also, spren are directly shaped by the beliefs of humans, so an entire nation worshiping stone is bound to have some effect.