[OB] The third Bondsmith and Urithiru

[FirstSelector]

This is a fork of a hastily-posted and incorrect previous theory that had some very interesting replies.  I wanted to write up everything in a new thread with references; special thanks to CaptainRyan, Wandering Investor, lookingglass, Subvisual Haze, and ROSHtaFARian2.0.

THEORY: The third Bondsmith is bonded to a large and powerful spren that powers the Urithiru fabrial network.  For simplicity, we will refer to this spren as "the Sibling."

 

Three Siblings and Three Bondsmiths

In OB Ch 64, Dalinar talks to the Stormfather about the other Bondsmiths:

Quote

“Are there others like me out there?” he finally asked.
Not right now, and there can ever be only three. One for each of us.
“Three?” Dalinar said. “Three spren who make Bondsmiths. You … and Cultivation are two?”
The Stormfather actually laughed. You would have a difficult time making her your spren. I should like to see you try it.
“Then who?”
My siblings need not concern you.

Later, in OB Ch 111, they discuss the three siblings again:

Quote

“Yes, you’ve said. The Nightwatcher is like you. Are there others, though? Spren like you, or the Nightwatcher? Spren that are shadows of gods?”
There is … a third sibling. They are not with us.
“In hiding?”
No. Slumbering.
“Tell me more.”
No.
“But—”
No! Leave them alone. You hurt them enough.

It has long been suspected that there are three Bondsmiths because there are three Shards on Roshar.  We have long assumed that the Nightwatcher was the second spren, which the Stormfather seems to be confirming in this quote.  Following this logic, the conclusion would be that Odium also has a "giant" spren and that the third Bondsmith has the job of wrangling them.

I assumed this in my original post, and assumed that the Sibling referenced by the Radiants (see below) was clearly not a voidspren and thus must be the Nightwatcher.  However, thanks to the clever people in that thread, I think this must be false.

As an aside, in the WoR Ch 44 epigraph we learn that one Bondsmith "was in continual accompaniment of Urithiru."

Honor and Cultivation

When thinking about Honor and Cultivation, it's important to remember that their Vessels were lovers, so it seems reasonable that they would have children.  It would be totally reasonable for the children of Shards to be spren, I think.  Based on the Stormfather's language, I think now that the Sibling is a combination of Honor and Cultivation.

In retrospect, this makes much more sense than having the Bondsmith be Connected to a big, nasty voidspren.  There is no reason to believe it is impossible, but I don't think that Odium would allow a particularly powerful Spren to lend its aid to the enemy.  In fact, as the Bondsmiths are the most powerful individuals in Honor's magic system, I find it unnatural that they would be Connected to Odium.

The Radiant's thoughts on the Sibling

We know much about the Sibling from the gemstones left by the Radiants.  They are generically supportive of the entity, which suggests that it is not of Odium or the Unmade.  We can also draw some conclusions:

I think it safe to assume that the Sibling was a large spren, and either withdrew from men or was forced away (Ch 68 and 70 epigraphs, respectively).  Note that zircon is the stone for the Elsecallers, experts on spren and Shadesmar.

Quote

My research into the cognitive reflections of spren at the tower has been deeply illustrative. Some thought that the Sibling had withdrawn from men by intent—but I find counter to that theory. — From drawer 1-1, first zircon

Quote

Something is happening to the Sibling. I agree this is true, but the division among the Knights Radiant is not to blame. Our perceived worthiness is a separate issue. — From drawer 1-1, third zircon

The Sibling leaving was at least correlated in time with the abandonment of Urithiru and possibly of the Knights themselves (Ch 87 epigraph):

Quote

Good night, dear Urithiru. Good night, sweet Sibling. Good night, Radiants. — From drawer 29-29, ruby

 

The Urithiru fabrial

I'm presenting this theory a bit backwards - the original impetus came from my earlier thread and the many good replies therein.  Nevertheless, I think much of the logic still hangs together.

Urithiru is an interesting place for many reasons.  Even in the book, Shallan, Renarin, and Navani have already realized the tower is huge fabrial (Ch 44, 44, and 109):

Quote

“Yes, this isn’t only a collection of fabrials. It’s many fabrials put together to make one big fabrial.”
“But what does it do?” Shallan asked.
“It does being a city.” He frowned. “Well, I mean, it bees a city.… It does what the city is.…”

Quote

“The records below,” Navani said, “speak of this tower like a living thing. With a heart of emerald and ruby, and now these veins of garnet.”

 

However, they can't simply turn it back on by re-infusing the pillar (Ch 44):

Quote

She passed around drawings, then moved on to explaining the efforts—failed so far—they’d taken to try to infuse the gemstone pillar.

This seems to imply that the spren that powered the fabrial is no longer present.

It's important to note that the pillar would hold an almost unimaginable amount of Investiture.  In fact, if we wanted to store a spren with power on order of the Stormfather, I think we would need something like that pillar.

Lastly, the tower provides magical defenses against the Unmade (Ch 73):

Quote

I am worried about the tower’s protections failing. If we are not safe from the Unmade here, then where? — From drawer 3-11, garnet

 

Cultivation's influence on the tower

My original idea had the Nightwatcher pegged as the inhabitant because of the following quotes (Ch 69 and 107):

Quote

The wilting of plants and the general cooling of the air is disagreeable, yes, but some of the tower’s functions remain in place. The increased pressure, for example, persists. — From drawer 1-1, second zircon

Quote

He [Dalinar] was directed onto a garden balcony, where a small group of ardents was trying to farm. Some placed seed paste while others were trying to get some shalebark starters to take along the wall.

The first seems to imply that growing things in Urithiru was relatively easy up until something went wrong, and the second seems to imply that the issues persist.

Urithiru is supposed to be the Knight's stronghold on Roshar, and having a good food source is part of outlasting a siege.  As Urithiru was almost certainly created by Honor and probably Cultivation for humans, it would be not very logical to fail to provide a source of food for the tower.  But given the climate, plants would ordinarily struggle to grow.  A major Splinter of Cultivation living nearby would probably be more than enough to compensate, allowing for plant life.

It is entirely possible that the plants growing are just another part of the fabrial network, but this does not change the conclusion if we believe the captured spren would still need to be significantly related to Cultivation.

 

PUTTING IT ALL TOGETHER

If we take the Stormfather's words literally and keep in mind Honor and Cultivation's romantic relationship, it seems entirely reasonable that the third Sibling is mix of their two powers.  This Sibling is mentioned multiple times in reference to Urithiru, which has been established as an enormous fabrial.  Putting these together, we can reason that this third Sibling powers the Urithiru fabrial and encourages plant growth.  The third Bondsmith bonds this Sibling, which prompts them to stay in Urithiru.

When this Sibling leaves Urithiru (either willingly or not), the tower's defenses fail and the Unmade can move in.  How and why this occurs, how it is related to the Recreance, and the current status of the Sibling (apart from hurt and asleep) are all up for debate.  The importance of Urithiru suggests that someone will need to find the Sibling and convince them to come back.

 

Final thoughts

My sincere thanks to everyone in the prior thread who contributed to these ideas.  I welcome all commentary, and look forward to learning more.

As a postscript, in my mind I imagine the Sibling as a huge warrior in Shadesmar, fighting off the influence of the Unmade.

[Billahollic]

I had the same thoughts on the Sibling being a child of honor and cultivation. However the way that the Stormfather refers to the Sibling in the plural makes me think that he's speaking of Cusicesh with the many faces

[Argent]

I can espouse that theory. 

The one candidate I've been trying to fit in for the Sibling (also, talk about potential middle child syndrome - you get the Stormfather, the Nightwatcher, and then... the Sibling. Come on, Tanavast, be a better dad, give your kid a name) is the giant spren of stones Szeth mentions once in Oathbringer. I don't have my notes with me at work, but I might post another reply eventually with whatever I had marked as potentially interesting. 

Other than this, I think my thoughts run along lines similar to yours, especially with your recent confirmation that Urithiru was not powered by the Nightwatcher (who was my previous top candidate).

[taxilian]

22 minutes ago, Billahollic said:

I had the same thoughts on the Sibling being a child of honor and cultivation. However the way that the Stormfather refers to the Sibling in the plural makes me think that he's speaking of Cusicesh with the many faces

Initially I wondered this as well, but this WoB seems to disprove the theory: https://wob.coppermind.net/events/2/#e174

Quote

Brandon Sanderson

...The Nightwatcher, yes. Um... There are, I would say, a level below the Stormfather and the Nightwatcher who are also much-- a much bigger deal than something like one of the sapient spren, and that's what Cusicesh is.

Cusicesh is at least two significant "levels" down from Stormfather and Nightwatcher, and I would have to assume that the third would need to be the same level or at least very very close.

The more I think about it the more I agree with this theory; if true, it is a bit odd since generally the spren who power a fabrial are "trapped" there, but Brandon has also indicated that it is possible to trap a nahel-bonded spren in a gemstone (see https://wob.coppermind.net/events/25/#e1765) so it seems very plausible. 

I also considered the possibility of the third bondsmith spren being Odium-related (spren of any type can have free will, so being a voidspren won't automatically make them Evil, and being honorspren doesn't automatically mean Good), but consider this WoB quote (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/117/#e1640):

Quote

Brandon Sanderson

So all the magic on Roshar, all the surgebinding on Roshar, is going to have its roots in Honor and Cultivation. Um... There is some Odium influence too, but that’s mostly voidbinding, which is the map in the back of the first book.

That seems to imply that at least in general (and at least in the past) all of the "knight radiant" spren were of Honor and Cultivation, which would indicate that the third spren can't be a voidspren... which again seems to indicate it's most likely a fusion of the two, part Honor and part Cultivation.  So... yeah, just more evidence to support your theory.

Edited November 17, 2017 by taxilian

[Billahollic]

Perhaps something we haven't seen yet? 

[Leyrann]

11 minutes ago, Billahollic said:

Perhaps something we haven't seen yet? 

We can't theorize about that though, and considering we're not gonna not theorize, we're just gonna look at what we have seen.

[Billahollic]

Understood. 

Sorry, I am new here

[Vissy]

If Nightwatcher is another "Bondsmith Spren" like the Stormfather, that would mean that two of three Shards present on Roshar have a Bondsmith. Would it stand to reason, then, extrapolating from this, that Odium would have a Bondsmith as well - or something of Odium, at least? Sja-anat springs to mind, as she is a bit of a rebel.

[Blacksmithki]

12 minutes ago, Billahollic said:

Understood. 

Sorry, I am new here

Basic moto of the site:

We can't be wrong if we predict every single possibility!

[FirstSelector]

1 hour ago, Argent said:

The one candidate I've been trying to fit in for the Sibling (also, talk about potential middle child syndrome - you get the Stormfather, the Nightwatcher, and then... the Sibling. Come on, Tanavast, be a better dad, give your kid a name) is the giant spren of stones Szeth mentions once in Oathbringer.

Other than this, I think my thoughts run along lines similar to yours, especially with your recent confirmation that Urithiru was not powered by the Nightwatcher (who was my previous top candidate).

This is why I specifically asked at the signing; I thought it was so obvious due to the fact that we had to have a big piece of Cultivation nearby.

In the original thread, some people guessed that the Sibling is like stone and root of the Shin religion.  This is reasonable, but I don't have good arguments one way or another.  I'd be really interested to hear if you figure something out.

[Elsvette Mintyfresh]

Perhaps the Sibling is the spren of Urithiru itself?

[blackcatw81]

3 hours ago, taxilian said:

Initially I wondered this as well, but this WoB seems to disprove the theory: https://wob.coppermind.net/events/2/#e174

Cusicesh is at least two significant "levels" down from Stormfather and Nightwatcher, and I would have to assume that the third would need to be the same level or at least very very close.

English is not my mother tongue and I'm not sure I understand what you wrote but the WoB you mention also said "there are [...] a much bigger deal than [..] and that's what Cusicesh [the Protector] is".

Edited November 17, 2017 by blackcatw81

[TheOneKEA]

After seeing the Oathgate spren in action, I wonder if the Urithiru Oathgate(s) have their own spren or if they are instead associated with the Sibling. Someone should ask Brandon if the Urithiru Oathgate(s) have their own spren or not.

 

[taxilian]

Just now, blackcatw81 said:

English is not my mother tongue but the WoB you mention also said "there are [...] a much bigger deal than [..] and that's what Cusicesh [the Protector] is".

I can see how the sentence might be a bit tricky to parse -- English is an annoying language sometimes =] Let me rephrase what he said:

Quote

(paraphrased)

There are, I would say, a level below the Stormfather and the Nightwatcher who are also a much bigger deal than one of the sapient spren. Cusicesh is one of the sapient spren.

Thus, there are spren which are a level below Stormfather and Nightwatcher and those spren are "a much bigger deal" than Cusicesh is.

[blackcatw81]

4 minutes ago, taxilian said:

I can see how the sentence might be a bit tricky to parse -- English is an annoying language sometimes =] Let me rephrase what he said:

Thus, there are spren which are a level below Stormfather and Nightwatcher and those spren are "a much bigger deal" than Cusicesh is.

Yeah I read the quote multiple times and applying a bit of grammar structure I finally got it!

I think it can happen even in our own language, thank you!

[Seonid]

8 minutes ago, taxilian said:

I can see how the sentence might be a bit tricky to parse -- English is an annoying language sometimes =] Let me rephrase what he said:

Thus, there are spren which are a level below Stormfather and Nightwatcher and those spren are "a much bigger deal" than Cusicesh is.

Um,  my read indicates that Cusicesh is one of the intermediate spren between a sapient spren and the Stormfather/Nightwatcher level. The sapient spren are spren like Syl and Pattern.

[Wandering Investor]

I got called out  I like this theory, it pulls a lot together. I forgot about one of the bondsmiths being in continual accompaniment of Urithuru. That almost makes me think that might be the spren's name, shared with the tower. 

I also agree with some of the comments I'm seeing about the Sibling being the spren of stone. It would fit theme-wise. Not confirmable, but a solid theory.

The one part of the theory I disagree with is the Great spren being thought of as children. The highstorm(and I assume the Stormfather by extension) existed before the Shards arrived. So I think it is plausible all three Great Spren existed before the Shards. Its also possible that some or all were formed after, or even more likely altered by the Shards upon arrival.

[FirstSelector]

No problem, your commentary was essential and I always like to cite people correctly

You bring up a really good point.  The highstorms certainly existed, but they were originally of Adonalsium, not Honor.  However, I find it quite plausible that Honor created the Stormfather as a large spren to live in the highstorms and recharge spheres.

[taxilian]

2 hours ago, Seonid said:

Um,  my read indicates that Cusicesh is one of the intermediate spren between a sapient spren and the Stormfather/Nightwatcher level. The sapient spren are spren like Syl and Pattern.

..... he *specifically* ended the comment with "Cusicesh is one of the sapient spren.".  How do you get "Cusicesh is a level above the sapient spren" from that?

I would assume that if anything spren like Syl and Pattern (who can form a nahel bond) are that intermediate step, being a level above other sapient spren.

[KidWayne]

5 hours ago, Vissy said:

If Nightwatcher is another "Bondsmith Spren" like the Stormfather, that would mean that two of three Shards present on Roshar have a Bondsmith. Would it stand to reason, then, extrapolating from this, that Odium would have a Bondsmith as well - or something of Odium, at least? Sja-anat springs to mind, as she is a bit of a rebel.

I'm thinking that's why there are only 9 voidbinding orders.

[Vissy]

9 Voidbinding orders has nothing to do with that. It's just Odium-specific numerology. Their numerology is 9-centric, while Rosharian numerology is 10-centric.

[blackcatw81]

5 hours ago, Vissy said:

9 Voidbinding orders has nothing to do with that. It's just Odium-specific numerology. Their numerology is 9-centric, while Rosharian numerology is 10-centric.

Nine Unmade and a champion give ten...

[blackcatw81]

9 hours ago, Wandering Investor said:

The one part of the theory I disagree with is the Great spren being thought of as children. The highstorm(and I assume the Stormfather by extension) existed before the Shards arrived. So I think it is plausible all three Great Spren existed before the Shards. Its also possible that some or all were formed after, or even more likely altered by the Shards upon arrival.

I thought the Stormfather as he is "today", the Sliver of Honor, was because Honor splintered. He existed before Honor but was no sentient being, imo.

...as for the Seons on Sel (even if they're not Slivers).

[frozndevl]

Until someone shows me otherwise, I think that voidbinding doesn't have a bondsmith analog.

[KidWayne]

27 minutes ago, frozndevl said:

Until someone shows me otherwise, I think that voidbinding doesn't have a bondsmith analog.

There is this handy voidbinding chart that shows it would be possible. I mean if Odium can corrupt the Oathgate spren, well then it stands to reason that they could have corrupted the Stormfather if he hadn't merged with Honor (you know, because he was all angry at the KR for the Recreance like Malata's & Venli's spren are now).

But I think you're right; I don't think that there is a current Bondsmith analog.

Edited November 18, 2017 by KidWayne