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[OB] Rosharan System Immigration/History


hoser

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We have more information about the history of Roshar.  I'm throwing down what I surmise here.  Please help 'cuz there's a lot I don't know.  If there is enough interest, I will update the OP with information, relevant WoB and other people's theories.  

Sequence:

  1. Adonalsium invests Roshar, creates Listeners and the highstorm.  Spren may be a result of the highstorm linking of realms.  Greatshells are created or evolve.  Listeners have 4 genders as do at least some of the spren.  Aimians (both kinds) created by Adonalsium?  Larkin too?  What about the Nightwatcher and the "Old Magic?" Wandering Investor pointed out thatHumans and Parshendi intermixed to create Herdazians and Horneaters before H, C or O ascended.  Did Adonalsium facilitate the combination?  If so, are Humans and Parshendi essentially both "native" to Roshar. 
  2. Cultivation and Honor invest the system, bring people to Tranquilline Halls. Braize? A destroyed planet? Ashyn? The interactions between Honor, Cultivation and the Rosharan system creates the surgebinding magic system
  3. Wildly speculating about the order here.  Odium comes to the Rosharan system, sets up the mountains around Shinovar and brings people there.  The yellow flamespren with Shin eyes who walk on stone projections develop here.  These holy spren are allowed to walk on stone, but not normal people.  Odium messes with the Tranquilline Halls.  Surgebinders develop here.  Do H+C create the Heralds here and give them the Honorblades while Honor makes the Oathpact with them?  Does Odium unmake the Unmade here?
  4. Surgebinders destroy the Tranquilline Halls.  H+C transport their people to non-Shinovar parts of Roshar.  Cultivation helps horses evolve into Ryshadium.  Dawnsingers/listeners help humans get established.  Stormfather gets associated with Honor/Almighty.  Cultivation and the Nightwatcher associate.  
  5. Conflict arises between the varieties of humans and listeners.  Heralds get established now if the didn't exist before.  H+C spren awaken that can bond humans.  Odium makes spren forms of power for the listeners including stormform.  Surgebinders arise.  Odium invests some dead listeners to become Voidbringers.  The Heralds make a deal to adjourn to Braize with the Voidbringers and the cycle of Desolations start.  
  6. The Iriali people arrive (from where?).  No real idea about where this fits in the timeline.  I think they may start in Shinovar. 
  7. Ishi and the spren constrain the Surgebinders to become the Knights Radiant.  The Heralds lose it and the Desolations become quicker, leading to the Last Desolation.  Does Stormseat get destroyed here?  By whom?
  8. Odium still creates conflicts that are moral dilemmas.  Does Aimia get scoured here?  Who was the enemy at Feverstone keep?  Melishi finds a way to interfere with the spren bonds except for the Last Legion.  The Knights become demoralized and eventually conspire with their spren to stop Surgebinding, except the Skybreakers.  
  9. Honor is splintered, but makes recordings to sustain the opposition to Odium.  Vorin gender roles develop (is Odium involved?). 
  10. Hierocracy
  11. Sunmaker
  12. The events that we are familiar with, starting with Gavilar seeing the highstorm visions, Jasnah and Shallan bonding spren and the Listeners exploration.  Vasher and Nightblood arrive, but Nale grabs Nightblood.  

Questions:

  • What are the Tranquilline Halls?  Braize? Another system planet?  A planet on another system? 
  • Can Honor and Cultivation create the same magic system (surgebinding) on different systems?
  • If another system was destroyed by Surgebinding, did it have spren?  Or did H+C have another way for Surgebinders to become invested?
  • When Syl tells Kaladin that people that they were of Odium before they were of Honor, was she referring to humans generally?  The Shin specifically?  Some of the races?
  • Where did the people come from?  Were the Alethi once the people of Dominion?  Were the Makabaki the people of Devotion?  Did H+C collect waves of people from around the Cosmere?

Quotes:

 

Quote

 

"There was intermixing long ago. Horneaters and Herdazians are both a result. (Signs of this are the stone carapace on Herdazian fingernails and the Horneater extra jaw pieces--in the back of the mouth--for breaking shells.)

Humans and parshmen don't have a common ancestor. And as a side note, both of these strains of humanoids predate the ascension of Honor, Cultivation, and Odium."

Above quote credit to Wandering Investor

Quote

 

Our basic (human) language families are:

Vorin: Alethi, Veden, Herdazian, and more distantly Thaylen. Nathan is close to dead, but shares a root, and Karbranthian is basically a dialect. Other minor languages like Bav are in here.

Makabaki: Azish is king here, and most the languages around split off this. There are around thirty of these.

Dawnate: A varied language family with distant roots in the dawnchant. Shin, parshendi, Horneater. They share grammar, but they diverged long enough ago that the vocabulary is very different.

 

Above quote credit to Subvisual Haze.  Does this mean we have four separate human migrations?

Quote

on p 1201, Syl says:

" ... you brought him (Odium) with you.  I wasn't alive then, but I know this truth.  He was your first god, before you turned to Honor."

Quote

 

Quote

Zas

People have been thrown by you saying that Odium is not native to Roshar.

Brandon

Odium is not native, that's the thing. Are any of them native? So if you dig the deeper question, are any of them native, ehhh, none of them are native to the planets you've seen so far. What I probably should've said to be more precise is that Honor and Cultivation were there long before Odium showed up.

 

Edited by hoser
Add Herdazian, Horneater quote, break out Iriali arrival
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  • Pagerunner changed the title to [OB] Rosharan System Immigration/History
1 hour ago, Leyrann said:

Was Odium not actually the one to originally bring humans (in general) to Roshar, and then later Odium and H+C swapping sides?

It's implied but ambiguous- the unfeeling god mentioned could be Odium or Honor, but WoB saying Cultivation and Honor there longer than Odium implies (with Occam's Razor) that it's Odium

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Pretty sure the Tranquilline Halls may be a sort of idealized version of wherever humans came from before they immigrated to Roshar, rather than an actual place that has anything to do with Honour or Cultivation. It's probably one of those Things Vorinism Got Wrong.

I'm not even necessarily sold on highstorms being pre-existing, either. There could have been some wind- or storm-based magic that wasn't exactly like highstorms, but modern highstorms are just Honour's investiture running wild, the same way the everstorms are a Rosharan manifestation of Odium's power.

And yeah, OB sorta implies that the humans brought Odium with them, but that could also imply that Humans came first and then Odium followed either because of them, or not because of them but the Listeners blamed them for his arrival anyway, rather than a contemporaneous arrival.

There's also the mystery of how Odium would have ended up trapped on Braize if he had arrived at the same time as the human refugees, as he would presumably then have followed them directly to Roshar, wheras him arriving later makes a bit more sense of him choosing to keep his distance a bit more.

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17 minutes ago, Ari said:

I'm not even necessarily sold on highstorms being pre-existing, either.

WoB on highstorms predating Adonalsium's Shattering.

And we also have in-universe reasons to assume that they do: All of Roshar's life has evolved to survive highstorms. Evolution doesn't happen in the few thousand years we've had since Adonalsium's Shattering, let alone Honor's splintering.

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1 minute ago, Leyrann said:

WoB on highstorms predating Adonalsium's Shattering.

And we also have in-universe reasons to assume that they do: All of Roshar's life has evolved to survive highstorms. Evolution doesn't happen in the few thousand years we've had since Adonalsium's Shattering, let alone Honor's splintering.

I was thinking in terms of depositing mass amounts of investiture rather than just large storms, but that would probably put paid to greatshells on further reflection so you're probably right that highstorms would have had to be pre-existing regardess. Cheers.

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2 minutes ago, Ari said:

I was thinking in terms of depositing mass amounts of investiture rather than just large storms, but that would probably put paid to greatshells on further reflection so you're probably right that highstorms would have had to be pre-existing regardess. Cheers.

Stormlight has to predate Honor's splintering at least, as the Knights Radiant during the Desolations also used Stormlight, while we know Honor got splintered after the Recreance (after all, he wouldn't have been able to create a vision about the Recreance otherwise).

1 minute ago, Ari said:

Any particular reason?

Imo this thread provides very good reasoning.

Edited by Leyrann
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Also, Ashyn (1 n, sorry) is the first planet from the Sun in Roshar, then Roshar the planet, then Braize (which acts like Damnation, in how the Voidspren and Heralds go there), fitting the theological story of humans coming from the Tranquilline Halls (driven by Odium? By the Voidbringers, i.e. Themselves) into Roshar and then the risk being driven to Damnation (Braize)

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Isn't Ashyn where Silence Divine happens? IF the suggestions in OB are literally correct that Odium care with the human immigrants, (which may not be the case) then Ashyn is a terrible candidate because he likely would have surpressed the innate investiture there from developing.

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Just now, Ari said:

Isn't Ashyn where Silence Divine happens? IF the suggestions in OB are literally correct that Odium care with the human immigrants, (which may not be the case) then Ashyn is a terrible candidate because he likely would have surpressed the innate investiture there from developing.

1) yes. The post-cataclysmic planet where investiture occurs through disease

2) why? It sounds like an Odium based minor magic system to me, probably changed by Odium leaving the planet. The fact that there is any magic system at all implies that a Shard once resided there, no? 

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3 minutes ago, IndigoAjah said:

1) yes. The post-cataclysmic planet where investiture occurs through disease

2) why? It sounds like an Odium based minor magic system to me, probably changed by Odium leaving the planet. The fact that there is any magic system at all implies that a Shard once resided there, no? 

I had recalled a WoB about the magic on ashyn being innate investiture, but I can't find it anymore so it's possibly I'm just misremembering it, (I've been away for a while and WoBs get rusty in your memory fast) or just that it did exist but it was something he said on Writing Excuses or something and nobody transcribed it.

Also, in terms of where they actually came from- I don't know, you could get a relatively small group of people coming through the cognitive realm, if it's been enough generations since then for them to grow in population exponentially.

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Distance is still very much a limiter in the Cognitive as well, and humans have to continue to eat and drink in the Cognitive. I think a long journey there is deeply impractical for enough humans to colonise Roshar within millennia, in a move that is, to me, clearly meant to parallel the formation of the USA amongst other more topical immigration fears

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One interesting thing about Odium being "a human God" and humans being set up in Shinovar as a Garden of Eden post home planet apocalypse: we can now grasp the historical reason behind why the Shin regard it as unholy to step on the stone of Roshar.  Szeth even thinks to himself at one point that this prohibition would be impossible to follow outside of Shinovar and Urithiru (due to only Shinovar having soil instead of exposed rock everywhere)....

The Shin taboo against walking on stone is a cultural remnant of their original status as planetary refugees, the purpose of the prohibition was to keep the human refugees inside Shinovar and not encroaching on the Singer's lands (the rest of Roshar).

Edited by Subvisual Haze
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There is a big problem with this theory, Humans were present on Roshar before Odium, Cultivation, and Honor ascended. 

WOB:

"There was intermixing long ago. Horneaters and Herdazians are both a result. (Signs of this are the stone carapace on Herdazian fingernails and the Horneater extra jaw pieces--in the back of the mouth--for breaking shells.)

Humans and parshmen don't have a common ancestor. And as a side note, both of these strains of humanoids predate the ascension of Honor, Cultivation, and Odium."

 

This brings into conlifict Odium being human's first god, since Honor got to Roshar first and therefore the humans. Odium could have possibly brought a specific population to Roshar, maybe the Shin? It also raises questions about the supposed invasion of humans. The first planet would have to have been destroyed and humans migrated even before the shattering, or a later human population came from another destroyed world and joined/invaded the human population already on Roshar(possibly placed by Adonalisium?). 

 

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4 minutes ago, Wandering Investor said:

There is a big problem with this theory, Humans were present on Roshar before Odium, Cultivation, and Honor ascended. 

WOB:

"There was intermixing long ago. Horneaters and Herdazians are both a result. (Signs of this are the stone carapace on Herdazian fingernails and the Horneater extra jaw pieces--in the back of the mouth--for breaking shells.)

Humans and parshmen don't have a common ancestor. And as a side note, both of these strains of humanoids predate the ascension of Honor, Cultivation, and Odium."

 

This brings into conlifict Odium being human's first god, since Honor got to Roshar first and therefore the humans. Odium could have possibly brought a specific population to Roshar, maybe the Shin? It also raises questions about the supposed invasion of humans. The first planet would have to have been destroyed and humans migrated even before the shattering, or a later human population came from another destroyed world and joined/invaded the human population already on Roshar(possibly placed by Adonalisium?). 

 

That doesn't say humans were on Roshar before the Shards. Merely that they existed, and the Parshendi too. Which can still be in the Roshar system. 

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2 minutes ago, IndigoAjah said:

That doesn't say humans were on Roshar before the Shards. Merely that they existed, and the Parshendi too. Which can still be in the Roshar system. 

True, but it does say that Humans and Singers intermingled before the ascension. If that didn't occur on Roshar, then the Parshendi would have to be on the first world as well. It seems most likely this would have occurred on Roshar since the highstorm is so important to their forms and lifestyle.

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I think there were a lot of immigration strains of humans.  The appearance of the Gods and their spren might be important.  I could accept the Shin being the first humans on Roshar though.  Perhaps they were fleeing the aftermath of Odium's showdown with Ambition on Threnody/Elegy and Odium "followed" them much later.

The darker skinned humans might then be refugees from a post-apocalyptic Braize.  Honor's avatar in the visions as well as many of his Heralds seemed to have darker skin tones.

The Iri would also make sense as a distinct refugee group based on their very unique belief systems (and hair).

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