Dearius Posted November 16, 2017 Report Share Posted November 16, 2017 So I just finished the book and realized that I hadn’t read the back of the dust jacket. I was just wondering who the Traitor was referencing specifically. The quote is, ‘The Traitor, broken by ambition, seeks freedom. So I want to say that this is in reference to Renarin but I think it could also be referring to Venli. I feel that the passage regarding ambition and seeking freedom apply more to her than Renarin but I am just not sure. I could be overthinking this though and have completely missed the mark. My brain is a little saturated with stormlight right now and I should probably get some sleep. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RShara Posted November 16, 2017 Report Share Posted November 16, 2017 It could also be Sja-anat. Ambition turned him Unmade, and now he wants to be free of Odium. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seloun Posted November 16, 2017 Report Share Posted November 16, 2017 Seems like Venli fits much better than Renarin, certainly. Venli even references her failing as being ambition (or thirst for power), while Renarin is probably the furthest thing from it. Quote Eshonai had always worried about Venli’s thirst for power, and had cautioned her to control her ambitions. Even Demid, at times, had been worried for [Venli]. And now … and now they were all dead. Sanderson, Brandon. Oathbringer: Book Three of the Stormlight Archive (p. 845). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. Seeking freedom (from Odium) also fits her quite well. I'm not sure that Renarin is really seeking 'freedom'; if anything it's almost the opposite (he wants to fit in). 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twinborn97 Posted November 16, 2017 Report Share Posted November 16, 2017 Is Moash not the traitor? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aminar Posted November 16, 2017 Report Share Posted November 16, 2017 2 hours ago, twinborn97 said: Is Moash not the traitor? He's the option that isn't Venli, but I suspect the Aimians are more interested in Venli as the traitor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IndigoAjah Posted November 16, 2017 Report Share Posted November 16, 2017 Would be really cool if this were somehow a post-death revenge plan from Ambition herself! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dearius Posted November 16, 2017 Author Report Share Posted November 16, 2017 (edited) 3 hours ago, twinborn97 said: Is Moash not the traitor? I thought about that, but the back cover specifically references Radiance returning to and shining towards the people referenced. I went through the list of possible surgebinders and felt that the only ones who could fit were the two I mentioned. I personally am torn between Venli and Renarin simply because every other character referenced is a human. Venli seems to fit the description of having ambition much better that Renarin but Jasnah specifically thinks of Renarin as a traitor when she goes to confront him in part 5. 7 hours ago, RShara said: It could also be Sja-anat. Ambition turned him Unmade, and now he wants to be free of Odium. The only issue that I can see with this is that the dust jacket references each of the five as either being radiant or approaching radiant. But until we get a WOB or the next book I suppose that anything is possible. Edited November 16, 2017 by Dearius 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leyrann Posted November 16, 2017 Report Share Posted November 16, 2017 1 hour ago, IndigoAjah said: Would be really cool if this were somehow a post-death revenge plan from Ambition herself! Turns out Ambition is working as a force of good! (I mean, what if the filter of the Vessel is "the ambition to defeat evil") Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tarion Posted November 16, 2017 Report Share Posted November 16, 2017 5 hours ago, twinborn97 said: Is Moash not the traitor? Moash wasn't broken by ambition though. Sure, he was ambitious, but his defining trait was vengefulness. And he doesn't seek freedom, but embraces being under control. He's definitely a traitor, but not the Traitor. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mazer Posted November 16, 2017 Report Share Posted November 16, 2017 I think it is pretty clear that Venli is the traitor. She is a radiant within Odium's forces and she has the ability to display herself as both a radiant and a voidbringer depending on need. Depending on perspective, Traitor isn't actually a negative thing. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Sovereign Posted November 21, 2017 Report Share Posted November 21, 2017 (edited) On 11/16/2017 at 10:23 AM, Tarion said: Moash wasn't broken by ambition though. Sure, he was ambitious, but his defining trait was vengefulness. And he doesn't seek freedom, but embraces being under control. He's definitely a traitor, but not the Traitor. I suspect Moash is Odium's champion however, and Kaladin will end up as Honor's. The killing of a King and a Herald seem like a decent beginning to grooming him. Edited November 21, 2017 by The Sovereign Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calderis Posted November 21, 2017 Report Share Posted November 21, 2017 On the back of WoR, Eshonai was the explorer. As these are written by the Sleepless, it seems pretty straightforward for their attention to have shifted to Venli after Eshonai's death, and calling her the Traitor. 10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Invested Beard Posted November 21, 2017 Report Share Posted November 21, 2017 13 minutes ago, Calderis said: On the back of WoR, Eshonai was the explorer. As these are written by the Sleepless, it seems pretty straightforward for their attention to have shifted to Venli after Eshonai's death, and calling her the Traitor. Bingo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dvoraen Posted November 22, 2017 Report Share Posted November 22, 2017 Yeah, I thought it was pretty clear it was Venli, just based on what she thinks throughout a good portion of the book, to say nothing of what happens to her at the end of her interludes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Awesomness Posted November 22, 2017 Report Share Posted November 22, 2017 Are we speaking of the "Amian´s traitor"?, or this traitor: Quote “One is almost certainly a traitor to the others.” —Paragraph 27[8] Book of the 2nd Desk Drawer, Diagram. The Diagram´s Traitor seems to be Sja-anat, as this section of the Diagram speaks about the unmade. Amian´s traitor should have been Eshonai but BUM, its Venli. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teknopathetic Posted November 22, 2017 Report Share Posted November 22, 2017 (edited) I like that "One is almost certainly a traitor to the others" applied to EVERY GROUP One unmade is a traitor - Sja-anat One Radiant is a traitor - Renarin. -> but not really, and it is the dust bringer in the end. One Singer is a traitor - Venli One Monarch is a traitor - Mr.T One O.G. Bridge 4 is a traitor - Moash and now with the Skybreakers, one Herald is a traitor. Edited November 23, 2017 by teknopathetic 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Invested Beard Posted November 22, 2017 Report Share Posted November 22, 2017 43 minutes ago, teknopathetic said: One Radiant is a traitor - Renarin I'm sorry but did you even read the book? Renarin is no traitor sir. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teknopathetic Posted November 23, 2017 Report Share Posted November 23, 2017 (edited) 5 hours ago, The Invested Beard said: I'm sorry but did you even read the book? Renarin is no traitor sir. He was and he wasn't. He knew something was wrong, and he was working with a corrupted Spren. To Jasnah, he was a traitor, but she overcame that perception. We still don't full understand what the implications of the Truthwatcher Corruption are. Clearly, they were corrupted in the last desolation (or earlier), but to what end? It only seemed to give the humans an advantage. Maybe the sense of nihilism and defeatism was the end goal? Edited November 23, 2017 by teknopathetic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thejopen27 Posted November 23, 2017 Report Share Posted November 23, 2017 On 11/16/2017 at 9:23 AM, Tarion said: Moash wasn't broken by ambition though. Sure, he was ambitious, but his defining trait was vengefulness. And he doesn't seek freedom, but embraces being under control. He's definitely a traitor, but not the Traitor. Moash serves as the reverse Dalinar, Dalinar refuses to let Odium take his actions away from him, while Moash leans into it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toaster Retribution Posted November 23, 2017 Report Share Posted November 23, 2017 6 hours ago, thejopen27 said: Moash serves as the reverse Dalinar, Dalinar refuses to let Odium take his actions away from him, while Moash leans into it. Actually, I'd say that Amaram was more of a reverse Dalinar than Moash was. Moash feels more like the reverse Kaladin. Personally, I think Venli is the Traitor. She is the most major of the three candidates (Venli, Moash and Renarin) and the other two don't really fit, as they weren't broken by ambition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bacon Posted November 23, 2017 Report Share Posted November 23, 2017 This could apply to Taravangian at the very end. After ousting Dalinar didn’t work, he seems like he’s trying to find any way at all, out of the situation he’s made for himself Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aminar Posted November 23, 2017 Report Share Posted November 23, 2017 4 hours ago, Toaster Retribution said: Actually, I'd say that Amaram was more of a reverse Dalinar than Moash was. Moash feels more like the reverse Kaladin. Personally, I think Venli is the Traitor. She is the most major of the three candidates (Venli, Moash and Renarin) and the other two don't really fit, as they weren't broken by ambition. Moash was broken by other people's ambition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grahamfactor Posted November 23, 2017 Report Share Posted November 23, 2017 There are two references in WoR that tie Venlin to ambition: First, Eshonai pretty clearly points out Venli's ambition: "Venli. I love you, but your ambition frightens me.” WOR p. 206. Second, Venli was a scholar, which the Listeners tied to ambition. "Scholarform shown for patience and thought. Beware its ambitions innate. Though study and diligence bring the reward, Loss of innocence may be one’s fate. —From the Listener Song of Listing, 69th stanza" WOR p. 258. I realize that Venli was thought to have nimbleform in WoR, but the description doesn't really match what we know of Venli: "Nimbleform has a delicate touch. Gave the gods this form to many, Tho’ once defied, by the gods they were crushed. This form craves precision and plenty." WoR p. 233. I wonder if Venli discovered scholarform, and no one else realized it. Regardless of what form she had, at least to my reading, Venli is more closely tied to ambition and fits the description of the "Traitor" than any of the other candidates. Do we know anything about book 4 yet? Do we know whether it will be Eshonai's book or is it possible it will be Venli's book? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+robardin Posted November 23, 2017 Report Share Posted November 23, 2017 On 11/21/2017 at 5:22 PM, The Sovereign said: I suspect Moash is Odium's champion however, and Kaladin will end up as Honor's. The killing of a King and a Herald seem like a decent beginning to grooming him. Yeah, his driving emotion was not ambition but vengeance. He felt vengeful so strongly that he betrayed Kaladin for its sake. He still feels guilt over that, and misses his Bridge Four mates. But he's given all of that - his "passion" for vengeance, his shame and his guilt for his betrayals - over to Odium, and even given up his identity as Moash to become Vyse, the Honorblade wielding (plus whatever that golden dagger thingy actually is) human agent of Odium. Dalinar refused to "give Odium his pain", but Moash certainly has. And from Odium's confidence in Dalinar's conversion until that point, it seems that once you give it to Odium, you can't get it back. Well, unless he gives it back, which it seems he only does in controlled jabs to remind his pawn why they are his pawn in the first place. Because they couldn't stand the... "Passion" involved in taking the burden of responsibility for their actions. Amaram was in the same boat. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thejopen27 Posted November 28, 2017 Report Share Posted November 28, 2017 On 11/23/2017 at 5:13 AM, Ookla the Toasted said: Actually, I'd say that Amaram was more of a reverse Dalinar than Moash was. Moash feels more like the reverse Kaladin. Personally, I think Venli is the Traitor. She is the most major of the three candidates (Venli, Moash and Renarin) and the other two don't really fit, as they weren't broken by ambition. I agree that Venli is the Traitor that is being referenced. What I meant about Moash compared to Dalinar is that Moash allows others and outside factors to take responsibility for his actions while Dalinar at the end resists Odium by taking responsibility for himself. I agree that overall Moash contrasts better to Kaladin. I just meant the major decisions Moash and Dalinar make in this book contrast each other very well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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