Leyrann

[OB] Odium (and Dalinar) (and Honor) (and Cultivation)

114 posts in this topic

I hadn't followed this thread, and wasn't aware of what it was about until I was quoted here. Now that I am aware. My two cents. 

We never see Odium directly incite anything. The Thrill yes, but that isn't Odium. 

Odium only consumes. He takes peoples passion, corrupts it, and leaves them empty. If that's not a perfect summary of the effect of hate on the human spirit, I don't know what is. 

As to the rhythms, they don't come from Odium, they are a phenomenon of the spiritual realm that manifests differently on Roshar. If every one of those rhythms, when filtered through something that's been corrupted by Odium is tinged with hate, I think that that is a sign of his true nature. He didn't create new rhythms, and he didn't choose what they were. They are just colored by the intent they pass through. 

Edited by Ookla, the Incalculable
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19 minutes ago, aemetha said:

Okay, well, this is my interpretation of it:

If the intent is passion, it grants the ability to manipulate emotion by adding or removing passion. This is a neutral power with neither positive or negative connotation.

Rayse the shard holder is described variously as being rather hateful, which implies a bias toward negative emotion. Shard holders cannot choose the intent of the shard, but they can direct the intent of the shard akin to channelling the intent through the lens of their own point of view.

So the combination of shardic intent and the nature of Rayse as an individual creates an entity with a bias toward creating passion for negative emotion and inhibiting passion for positive emotion. They very act of that behaviour is odious, and so it's not inaccurate to describe him as odium personified.

My problem with this is that Rayse has held the Shard for a LONG time.  Presuming that he still is able to maintain control of the Intent to a degree, it's still going to have a huge influence on his thoughts and actions.  At this point, if he were Passion, imo, he would *have* exhibit more than just hatred and anger in his uses of power.

And as I mentioned early, and Incalculable just mentioned, Odium doesn't ever create anything.  He twists and corrupts and consumes what's already there.

Edit:  Also, I didn't know that the Rhythms were a phenomenon of the SR.  That's amazing!

Edited by RShara
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Another thing I've considered regarding Passion, is if that would even be a Shard on its own. Doesn't "God's Passion" seem to have been divided into other shards already? Passion is just a very intense feeling for something, and aren't most shards very passionate in their intent? At least those where it's relevant. A bit like what the Stormfather said to counter Odium's argument about Honor having no emotions: that Honor felt very strongly about oaths, but he still cared so deeply for the people of Roshar that he died for them. I'd imagine that Devotion was as closely related to "Passion" as Odium is. 

That is to say, maybe Passion would be a combination of at the very least, all Shards that have some sort of emotional Intent. 

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Another thing to consider is that when Rayse was giving us this information, he had a particular goal in mind, and a "loathsome and crafty" man like him would for sure twist his words to get what he wants.  It might not be outright lying, but Odium was trying to sell Dalinar with the idea of working for him, and trying to convince him that he wasn't just hatred is a good way to do it.  It's kind of baffling, at least to me, that a lot of people are just taking his words at absolute face value.  

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1 hour ago, raykoda said:

Another thing to consider is that when Rayse was giving us this information, he had a particular goal in mind, and a "loathsome and crafty" man like him would for sure twist his words to get what he wants.  It might not be outright lying, but Odium was trying to sell Dalinar with the idea of working for him, and trying to convince him that he wasn't just hatred is a good way to do it.  It's kind of baffling, at least to me, that a lot of people are just taking his words at absolute face value.  

I keep mentioning this, and pointing out how Ruin used the same formula, but...

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It's not a case of taking it at face value, it's a case of not immediately dismissing it at face value. The actions demonstrated by Passion/Odium or Odium/Passion or Passion or Odium depending on your own viewpoint can be fitted to all of those names I just gave. Even BS is equivocal about the subject of how a shard holder interprets their intent. He can be seen as both without either option being necessarily incorrect. If Rayse is wrong about his interpretation of his own shards intent, he wouldn't be lying about it, he'd be delusional about it. This WoB seems to suggest that the whole scenario is intended to be ambiguous.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/256-oathbringer-london-signing/#e8685

Quote

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

We know <Ati chose how Ruin was interpreted, in that he was> a card-cackling maniac. Could someone so differently interpret a Shard as to change its name to be something different? Could someone pick up the Shard of Ruin and think I'm the Shard of Change?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Yes. To an extent. The interpretation, what you call a thing... I think it would be arguable either way in-world, regardless of what they call themselves. There are those who would say the core intent is still there and you can't shift it that far, and others would argue you can shift it far enough to change the definition to a synonym. You see evidence of someone claiming this in the books. I'm not gonna confirm or deny for you whether that is actually a thing or not.

 

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I was looking through tWoK and noticed a quote from Kaladin. It is kinda long so I am just going to take a picture. Page 690:

I am trying to decide what side this is arguing. Perhaps both, but definitely worth acknowledging what people in-world think1512715267591-745746319.thumb.jpg.77ed1a2c4c105a62a240d369670f3179.jpg

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Also, Kaladin is just about the most passionate person we've seen so far, with a lot of intense emotions.  But Odium can't seem to lay a finger on him.

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3 minutes ago, RShara said:

Also, Kaladin is just about the most passionate person we've seen so far, with a lot of intense emotions.  But Odium can't seem to lay a finger on him.

Mainly because Odium wants people to give him their emotions, and Kaladin couldn't give up his emotions if his life depended on it.  

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3 minutes ago, Landis963 said:

Mainly because Odium wants people to give him their emotions, and Kaladin couldn't give up his emotions if his life depended on it.  

But see, if he were Passion, then Kaladin ought to also be a prime candidate, given the intensity of his emotions.  But, Kaladin couldn't manage a good, persistent hate, even for Elhokar or himself.

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At this point I'm almost confused as to how this is still in doubt.

Everything Odium does is based in hate and anger.

Nothing Odium does has to do with being more then hatred

We know from the Stormfather, and from pretty much every entity made partly out of a shard's power that something made from or containing a shard's power is not necessarily a sign of the intent of that shard, so we can't use the unmade very effectively to argue either side.

So we have evidence for one side that Odium = Odium and the only evidence for Odium = Passion is Odium's own word for it while he tries to present himself in the best light, and we even have precident for a shard misrepresenting himself in an almost identical scenario (Ruin).

How is this not clear cut?

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In that quote, Kaladin states that Passion is what makes them human, and as we now know, the Rosharans are from Odium originally. I wonder if this idea of Passion is much bigger than any of are looking, that Adonalsium is all Passion and the shards are pieces of it. Making Odium the shard of passions that lead to hatred, such as lust, gluttony, bloodlust as shown by his Unmade. If this is the case, all the shards could claim to be some kind of pure passion.

After thinking through this I have come to my own conclusion that Odium is not Passion, but instead pure Hatred in result of a select few intense base passions

While looking up passion for a definite answer I found this on the wiki page:

"Denis Diderot describes passions as "penchants, inclinations, desires and aversions carried to a certain degree of intensity, combined with an indistinct sensation of pleasure or pain, occasioned or accompanied by some irregular movement of the blood and animal spirits, are what we call passions. They can be so strong as to inhibit all practice of personal freedom, a state in which the soul is in some sense rendered passive; whence the name passions. This inclination or so-called disposition of the soul, is born of the opinion we hold that a great good or a great evil is contained in an object which in and of itself arouses passion"

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passion_(emotion)

this quote seems to point towards all present arguments, Odium is that fierce of evil passions that renders a soul passive and inhibits personal freedom. Odium causes a void of freedom and emotion through extremely intense and hateful passions

Edited by Ookla the Gecko
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I do not want to get deep into metaphysical matters, but briefly, passions are a very deep and ultimately dark phenomenon that does not at all equate to intense feelings, but is about flushing out intelligence and thoughtfulness, the positive intent from one's actions. Passions in that sense are distorted and corrupted sprens, corrupted emotions. Syl is an embodiment of very strong emotions but Syl is not a passion, not a void spren. Killing with 'passion' is a distorted, corrupted form of, for example, killing in order to protect a defenceless child. On the contrary, blind frenzied killing by Moash is full of 'passion'--a drive for revenge at all cost, full of negative energy. It is all about the intent, purpose, motivation, genuine underlying truth of one's acts that is completely lacking in those strong 'passionate' actions like debauchery or maniacal killing.

This whole metaphysics Brandon is alluding to is pretty deep. 

 

Edited by Torero
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I'm just going to geek out for a moment and add that this whole Odium vs Passion conversation is strangely reminiscent of the Sith Code from Star Wars.   :mellow:

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