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[OB] Odium (and Dalinar) (and Honor) (and Cultivation)


Leyrann

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44 minutes ago, RShara said:

We don't know enough about the other 3 to say what they're like at this time.  However, looking at 6/9, I don't see how any of them could indicate Odium's Intent is "Passion" or anything other than, well, Odium.  We have rage, bloodlust, gluttony, violence, corruption. 
If his Intent were Passion, wouldn't at least SOME of those involve more positive forms of passion?

I'm just speculating here.

None of the unmades pertains to Hatred either. Thrill is just lust, there is no hatred there. 

Maybe it was influenced by Rayse and his emotions too. 

I think this is Passion in true sense, as in giving in to your base animalistic instincts. No morality or civility. Just raw feelings.

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I see Odium through a bit of a Star Wars lens. When he says that he represents "Passion", I see him as a Sith Lord trying to sell someone the Dark Side of the Force. You know, through passion I gain strength, through strength I gain power, etc. And we all know that in the end it leads to dark and twisted hatred. Maybe it's sort of true, but not really. Perhaps he's more, how passions relates to hatred. Unfettered passion that eventually lead to hatred, kind of how a too obsessive love could descend into jealousy and hatred, how the passion for victory can make you hate your opponent, how sorrow can lead to despair, anger and then hatred. The Yoda thing: fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to suffering. Maybe Odium is the incarnation of that. Hatred, and the passion that leads to it. Because it's probably difficult to hate without feeling passion. Hatred is so intense, it has to be connected.

But to call the shard "Passion" alone seems wrong, because passion would encompass so much more. I'd also be more inclined to say that a shard that got "God's Divine Passion" would result in Obsession, rather than just Passion. 

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44 minutes ago, TequilaJack said:

I'm just speculating here.

None of the unmades pertains to Hatred either. Thrill is just lust, there is no hatred there. 

Maybe it was influenced by Rayse and his emotions too. 

I think this is Passion in true sense, as in giving in to your base animalistic instincts. No morality or civility. Just raw feelings.

Yeah being ruled by your passions without any self control is mostly seen as a dangerous and scary thing.

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https://wob.coppermind.net/events/218-words-of-radiance-chicago-signing/#e6613

Quote

Questioner (paraphrased)

What spren types are Glys, Ivory, and Wyndle?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

RAFO, because I haven't decided yet. I know generally what they are, but I don't know how I am going to call them in the books. It happens with other things in my writing, Shards for example - Odium was originally Hatred; the idea was the same, but I decided to change the actual word.

 

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This is an interesting aside. What if each of the vessels that picked up their shards after the shattering of Adonalsium had no idea what they were getting?

Imagine that you shattered a rock into 16 pieces, how would you know what the composition of the individual pieces were before you inspected them? Say that just by picking up the piece the vessel ascended. This is an interesting thing to speculate on, and here is the more interesting speculation part.

What if Rayse's original shard was Passion? What if his journey through the cosmere splintering shards was an attempt to more closely align his power with the intent of the original vessel? What if when he splintered Devotion, Dominion and Ambition, he was actually trying to gather specific splintered elements of each of those shards to push the nature of the intent of the shard he possessed so that it was more closely aligned with his intentions prior to ascending. What if he is trying to create the ultimate evil in the cosmere by selectively taking up that which makes his shard more Odius? He self-describes himself as Odium, almost as if he is PROUD that he has become Odium.

Also interesting to think about, did he take anything from Honor when he splintered him?

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1 hour ago, Ookla the Beardspren said:

Yeah being ruled by your passions without any self control is mostly seen as a dangerous and scary thing.

The exploits of the Assassin in White were done by a man ruled by his honor. To quote a music critic(of all people): "What I'm trying to say is there's a spectrum to these things, and often one extreme is just as bad as the other."

On 11/29/2017 at 10:14 PM, RShara said:

Szeth was likely being influenced by Odium, since he was doing the signature, "This isn't my fault, I have no control over myself" denials that give Odium power over people.

When? I distinctly remember him stating(twice) that he isn't absolved of his crimes. Something about "common mistake stonewalkers make" and "drowning in what I am owed."

3 hours ago, RShara said:

However, looking at 6/9, I don't see how any of them could indicate Odium's Intent is "Passion" or anything other than, well, Odium.  We have rage, bloodlust, gluttony, violence, corruption. 

If his Intent were Passion, wouldn't at least SOME of those involve more positive forms of passion? 

None of them seem as tied to "Odium" as you think. Several seem to incite passions of one sort or another. Passion for food(glutton), sex(lust), violence(the Thrill), etc.. Not sure on Yelig-Nar either, beyond Passion for Power(as contrived as that would be). Precog(Moelach) gets us nowhere on any front, so we'll toss him out for now.

  • Ashertmarn - gluttony, indulgence, lust, debauchery, these are all excesses of something. Your seven deadly sins comparison is a good one, but those are examples of passion for something taken to extreme. There's a difference between liking/being passionate about food/sex/gratification/etc.. and glutton/lust/indulgence/etc.. for it.
  • Here's a passion argument on Re-Shephir. She's all about imitation, but she's mostly drawn towards violent acts. Unless I'm forgetting, all of our violent acts have been heat of the moment acts, or "crimes of passion." Those involve strong emotions, so they call her attention more than more simple acts. She also had one of her Essence watching Shallan's Lightweaving Play, so I could be off-base, but it's a start.

Ooh.. here's a way to look at it. Odium(Void) takes things away, yes? It stands to reason that the Unmade should reflect that too. Taking it back to Gluttony, what if the Unmade take away self-control? Gluttony, Greed, Indulgence, Lust, Debauchery, they all could be attributed to a loss of self-control in some form or another. I'm gonna run with this now, here goes nothing:

  • Nergaoul incites darker passions for violence and destruction, things normally held back by your own self-control.
  • Yelig-Nar might be a literal case of handing over self-control, given that he seems to consume his vessels if they can't control him.
  • Sja-Anat takes some/all of the control away from Spren she corrupts, allowing her to use them as spies and messengers.
  • Moelach's "subjects" can refuse to say what they see, but they still speak. Holding your tongue is a manner of self-control, and none of them have it during a Rattle.
  • Ashertmarn was already explained.
  • Re-Shephir though... She's gonna be an issue. I can't link imitation to self-control.
  • Wild Speculation: Bo-Ado-Mishram - Forcibly removing her from the Parsh took something away from them. If she replaces whatever it is she takes from them, perhaps there's a parallel to be drawn to Yelig-Nar here. (I am also curious what she normally did, since "doing what Odium did" for the Parsh isn't relevant when Odium is around)
4 minutes ago, hoiditthroughthegrapevine said:

What if Rayse's original shard was Passion? What if his journey through the cosmere splintering shards was an attempt to more closely align his power with the intent of the original vessel? What if when he splintered Devotion, Dominion and Ambition, he was actually trying to gather specific splintered elements of each of those shards to push the nature of the intent of the shard he possessed so that it was more closely aligned with his intentions prior to ascending. What if he is trying to create the ultimate evil in the cosmere by selectively taking up that which makes his shard more Odius? He self-describes himself as Odium, almost as if he is PROUD that he has become Odium.

We have WoB that picking up pieces of Shards and twisting his Intent(however mildly) isn't something he's willing to do.

Quote

Questioner (paraphrased)
So Ruin and Preservation combine. When Odium slays the Shardbearers, why doesn’t he absorb the enemy Shards?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)
Because that would actually change the way he views the world. The Shard would actually start to influence him, and could actually ruin who he views himself as being. So instead of combining them all, his goal is to destroy them all and be the only one left at his power level.

Questioner (paraphrased)
So by his nature, he can't combine?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)
I mean he could, but it would change his nature. So he won't.

However, I do like the idea that it was originally Passion. Rayse was a "loathsome and crafty individual," so him expressing a darker side of Passion in how he filters the Shard's Intent seems believable. I feel like any sufficiently passionate person would be a good fit for Passion, regardless of which side of that spectrum they are on(Hatred, Zeal, Love, etc..), and that could affect how such a Shard would be "named" by those around it.

There was a WoB regarding Intents and synonyms(that was posted in a different topic, it appears), and depending on which usage of Passion you define, you could have Rage, Lust, Enthusiasm, Obsession, and Compulsion as potential synonyms.

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4 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

The exploits of the Assassin in White were done by a man ruled by his honor. To quote a music critic(of all people): "What I'm trying to say is there's a spectrum to these things, and often one extreme is just as bad as the other."

When? I distinctly remember him stating(twice) that he isn't absolved of his crimes. Something about "common mistake stonewalkers make" and "drowning in what I am owed."

None of them seem as tied to "Odium" as you think. Several seem to incite passions of one sort or another. Passion for food(glutton), sex(lust), violence(the Thrill), etc.. Not sure on Yelig-Nar either, beyond Passion for Power(as contrived as that would be). Precog(Moelach) gets us nowhere on any front, so we'll toss him out for now.

  • Ashertmarn - gluttony, indulgence, lust, debauchery, these are all excesses of something. Your seven deadly sins comparison is a good one, but those are examples of passion for something taken to extreme. There's a difference between liking/being passionate about food/sex/gratification/etc.. and glutton/lust/indulgence/etc.. for it.
  • Here's a passion argument on Re-Shephir. She's all about imitation, but she's mostly drawn towards violent acts. Unless I'm forgetting, all of our violent acts have been heat of the moment acts, or "crimes of passion." Those involve strong emotions, so they call her attention more than more simple acts. She also had one of her Essence watching Shallan's Lightweaving Play, so I could be off-base, but it's a start.

Ooh.. here's a way to look at it. Odium(Void) takes things away, yes? It stands to reason that the Unmade should reflect that too. Taking it back to Gluttony, what if the Unmade take away self-control? Gluttony, Greed, Indulgence, Lust, Debauchery, they all could be attributed to a loss of self-control in some form or another. I'm gonna run with this now, here goes nothing:

  • Nergaoul incites darker passions for violence and destruction, things normally held back by your own self-control.
  • Yelig-Nar might be a literal case of handing over self-control, given that he seems to consume his vessels if they can't control him.
  • Sja-Anat takes some/all of the control away from Spren she corrupts, allowing her to use them as spies and messengers.
  • Moelach's "subjects" can refuse to say what they see, but they still speak. Holding your tongue is a manner of self-control, and none of them have it during a Rattle.
  • Ashertmarn was already explained.
  • Re-Shephir though... She's gonna be an issue. I can't link imitation to self-control.
  • Wild Speculation: Bo-Ado-Mishram - Forcibly removing her from the Parsh took something away from them. If she replaces whatever it is she takes from them, perhaps there's a parallel to be drawn to Yelig-Nar here. (I am also curious what she normally did, since "doing what Odium did" for the Parsh isn't relevant when Odium is around)

We have WoB that picking up pieces of Shards and twisting his Intent(however mildly) isn't something he's willing to do.

However, I do like the idea that it was originally Passion. Rayse was a "loathsome and crafty individual," so him expressing a darker side of Passion in how he filters the Shard's Intent seems believable. I feel like any sufficiently passionate person would be a good fit for Passion, regardless of which side of that spectrum they are on(Hatred, Zeal, Love, etc..), and that could affect how such a Shard would be "named" by those around it.

There was a WoB regarding Intents and synonyms(that was posted in a different topic, it appears), and depending on which usage of Passion you define, you could have Rage, Lust, Enthusiasm, Obsession, and Compulsion as potential synonyms.

I can see what you mean in your arguments, and they do make sense.  But I just can't believe that multiple sources that are either very sensitive, intelligent, Cosmere-aware, or powerful (or all of the above) would be so wrong about Odium's Intent.

Particularly, Frost's letter is very clear on who Rayse is, and what he holds.

Quote

He bears the weight of God’s own divine hatred, separated from the virtues that gave it context. He is what we made him to be, old friend. And that is what he, unfortunately, wished to become.

If he were Passion, some of those virtues would be there.  All-consuming hatred fits with the effects we see, and the fallout that's occurred much better.

And I have to stress once again, that we have seen a Shard do exactly what Odium is doing--misrepresent himself in order to persuade his opponents and justify his actions.  I didn't believe Ruin when he did it, and I have no intention of believing Odium :)

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19 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

We have WoB that picking up pieces of Shards and twisting his Intent(however mildly) isn't something he's willing to do.

The WoB referenced does say anything in regards to absorbing paricular splinters of a shard, the point of that WoB, at least how I read it, is that Odium doesn't take up the full power of the shards that he has defeated. This could be because he is attempting to break apart the constituent intent of the shard and ONLY absorb the components of that shard that agree with the intent of the original vessel (Rayse) so that he could create a more Odious shard.

I am not well read on WoBs, but I think that this is interesting idea and would explain why Odium is so intent on splintering rather than the outright destruction of other shards. There are some big assumptions in this theory to be sure, the primary one being that a shard would have the volitional capacity to selectively absorb some splinters of a shard but not others, but I think this is something interesting to think about. Also given Dalinar's big Unity ascencsion, couldn't something similar be going on. The intent of what he was doing when he obviously assumed some of the previous powers of honor, with a well formed intent prior to seizing these powers makes me think that this might be possible. Like if Rayse splintered Devotion and Dominion while focusing on his hatred, could he have also pulled some aspects of these divine intents that are aligned with hatred into his shardic influence/power?

All speculation to be sure, but we have 4 years to speculate so why not aim for the sun as Hoid would say.

Edited by hoiditthroughthegrapevine
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2 minutes ago, hoiditthroughthegrapevine said:

The WoB referenced does say anything in regards to absorbing paricular splinters of a shard, the point of that WoB, at least how I read it, is that Odium doesn't take up the full power of the sahrds that he has defeated. This could be because he is attempting to break apart the constituent intent of the shard and ONLY absorb the components of that shard that agree with the intent of the original vessel (Rayse) so that he could create a more Odious shard.

I am not well read on WoB, but I think that this is interesting idea and would explain why Odium is so intent on splintering rathering than outright destruction of other shards. There are some big assumptions in this theory to be sure, the primary one being that a shard would have the volitional capacity to selectively absorb some splinters of a shard but not others, but I think this is something interesting to think about. Also given Dalinar's big Unity ascencsion, couldn't something similar be going on. The intent of what he was doing when he obviously assumed some of the previous powers of honor, with a well formed intent prior to seizing these powers makes me think that this might be possible. Like if Rayse splintered Devotion and Dominion while focusing on his hatred, could he have also pulled some aspects of these divine intents that are aligned with hatred into his shardic influence/power?

All speculation to be sure, but we have 4 years to speculate so why not aim for the sun as Hoid would say.

I think absorbing Splinters of a Shard would also change his Intent, so I don't think it's something he's willing to risk.  Is there evidence showing that you can splinter a shard you aren't holding in a specific way or into specific pieces?

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3 minutes ago, RShara said:

I think absorbing Splinters of a Shard would also change his Intent, so I don't think it's something he's willing to risk.  Is there evidence showing that you can splinter a shard you aren't holding in a specific way or into specific pieces?

Unless the intent that was involved in splintering the shard somehow matters.I mean this is a god splintering another god, in a cosmere where intent is in immanent quality in that god.

This totally is a what if, but I think it's a pretty cool what if. What if Hatred Destorys Dominion to splinter off the component of Dominion that aligns with Hatred? What if Hatred destroys Ambition in order to splinter off the component of Ambition that aligns to hatred (one of the big goads for doing evil is the power that the underlings of said evil scheme desire, that seems like ambition)?

All of the primary intents have something that they could give to Hatred in order to make it stronger (with the exception of harmony, unless this would decompose into is base Ruin/preservation pairings and then further decompose into other more useful attributes).

Just interesting to think about really.

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1 minute ago, RShara said:

But I just can't believe that multiple sources that are either very sensitive, intelligent, Cosmere-aware, or powerful (or all of the above) would be so wrong about Odium's Intent.
Particularly, Frost's letter is very clear on who Rayse is, and what he holds.

  • Syl is young(in comparison), and her understanding involves what he is now, rather than what he was then, because she wasn't around to know.
  • The Parshendi Song only mentions spite and control, neither of which are that definitive. Seeking to "take control" could involve him wanting to be the only Shard. Spite holds a little more water, but spite is the desire to hurt, annoy or offend. He want to kill the other Shards, so there's his spite. Spite alone lacks the context that could tie it to Odium/Passion.
  • I'll still hold Frost's information as not 100% certain until we learn whether the Vessels knew what it was they were picking up before they picked it up. Otherwise, he's doing the same "guess the missing godlike aspects" game we are, albeit with more information.

Unless Frost somehow just knows, then he has to build an assumption on the Intents based on what they've done, and Odium has done some pretty hateful things. Frost isn't a Shard, and because of that, there are some things he just isn't able to know unless somebody else told him. I wouldn't be too upset if such an intelligent source happened to be wrong here, since the logical conclusion of Hatred makes sense.

5 minutes ago, RShara said:

If he were Passion, some of those virtues would be there. All-consuming hatred fits with the effects we see, and the fallout that's occurred much better.

Detail some of these "virtues," if you would. I don't see any reason that Passion cannot exist without virtues for context. It's why we label things as "all-consuming," as they get rid of the virtues that gave them context. Hatred isn't the only "all-consuming" type of passion out there, after all.

4 minutes ago, RShara said:

And I have to stress once again, that we have seen a Shard do exactly what Odium is doing--misrepresent himself in order to persuade his opponents and justify his actions.  I didn't believe Ruin when he did it, and I have no intention of believing Odium :)

Ruin didn't really misrepresent himself, all things considered. Mistborn Spoilers

Spoiler

He said he represents change, which is true, especially in contrast to Preservation, the Shard of Not-Change. He's primarily negative change, but all he said was that he represents change. Out of context truth.

As for him giving the gift of life, that's technically not a lie. Preservation wanted to create life, but could only do so by working with Ruin. The full truth is that both he and Preservation provided the gift of life, but since Preservation was already willing, it was Ruin's addition of his power to the mix that made life possible. Truth from both his(and my) point of view.

As for what's going on with Odium, I find it notable that Ruin's "misleading" didn't really contain any lies. I imagine that Odium's spiel is also true, but from what point of view? What statements lack additional context that might change how they are looked at?

Assuming he's telling the truth, how is he telling the truth? That's what I'm trying to figure out now. [I think the difference is that you are trying to prove him wrong, while I'm testing out him being right. We start with a different assumption about his veracity, but we both take that assumption and apply it to what we know he's done.]

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I'm not talking about what Syl knows, information wise.  I'm talking about what she senses.  I'm sure her senses are sensitive enough to feel Odium's attention and the Intent behind it.

Love, Joy, Hope, Exhilaration are examples of positive passion.

I never said that Ruin lied.  I said he misrepresented himself.  Phrasing deliberate.  He represents destruction.  There's change in that, but it's not *just* change, it's destructive change.  Leaving that part out is the misrepresentation.  Lying by omission is misrepresentation. (Not to mention, he didn't create humans, exactly...he *recreated* them based off of the existing template).

As I've said before, I'm sure that Odium (and Ruin) did not directly lie, and also spoke what they saw as the truth .  That doesn't mean that it was the total truth, with context.

What a Shard says is not always what you think a Shard says!  Brandon has plenty of experience lying with the truth after writing Wheel of Time.

 

 

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No, they don't qualify for that in all instances. You're listing emotions, whereas by the very definition you've provided here passion is refers to a state in which an emotion reaches a specified magnitude.

You can feel passionate love for a person for example, but you can also feel other kinds of love, and in fact human nature is for passionate love to fade into a far less passionate, but perhaps more enduring emotion. Stating love is a passion is just not semantically correct, love is an emotion which can in some circumstances be passionate.

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7 minutes ago, aemetha said:

No, they don't qualify for that in all instances. You're listing emotions, whereas by the very definition you've provided here passion is refers to a state in which an emotion reaches a specified magnitude.

You can feel passionate love for a person for example, but you can also feel other kinds of love, and in fact human nature is for passionate love to fade into a far less passionate, but perhaps more enduring emotion. Stating love is a passion is just not semantically correct, love is an emotion which can in some circumstances be passionate.

I understand what you're saying, but I feel like you are splitting hairs here.  Very well, they are examples of emotions that can be passionate.  Just like hunger, anger, hatred, and desire.

The four I listed can be passionate (thought I would argue that joy and hope, at least, are generally "barely containable emotions").  But Odium never exhibits them.  Whereas he exhibits gluttony, rage, hatred, and lust.

 

Also there are already passionspren, and they aren't from Odium.

Edited by RShara
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Well, I'm not really intending to split hairs, because I think it's an important distinction. Odium doesn't create emotion, people have that all by themselves, just not passionate emotion. What Odium does is inflame the emotion introducing passion to the experience of it, or in some cases deaden it, removing passion from it. It serves his interests to inflame negative emotion and deaden positive emotion, but there is no reason he couldn't choose either path. The ultimate outcome of that is Odium - to hate and inspire hatred.

FYI, rage (anger) is actually generally held to not be either a negative or positive emotion. Historically it has been very difficult for psychology researchers to classify and advances in neuroscience have only cemented it as being inconsistent with either positive or negative affect.

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If he could increase positive emotion, I think that he would have in at least a few circumstances to make his arguments more persuasive or to recruit followers.

Instead, he seems to need people to already have passionate emotions, and then corrupts them toward the worst form.  And it's never a positive emotion that he manages to use.

I mean, Dalinar has pretty passionate love for Navani.  But that's not the emotion that Odium uses to try and control Dalinar.

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Well, you could make the argument that inflaming positive emotions doesn't get him to his goals. He wants Dalinar to be his champion, but if he inflames his love for Navani, he basically just turns him into a doe eyed sycophant, which isn't particularly effective. His goal is to create division and conflict, and positive emotions work against that. Having strong passionate love for Navani would serve to make him more reluctant to switch sides. It's all a very roundabout way to manipulate Dalinar, and I think it's pretty clear that Odium's preference to is to toy with the emotions of his targets directly.

If we accept that Rayse is a loathsome and vile individual without his intent, then his guidance of the intent of passion would tend toward inflaming the negative and deadening the positive anyway.

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No, see, twisting his passion toward Navani could easily turn him incredibly envious of any man who looks at her twice.  Then that could be used to get him to attack his own people in a huge fit of jealousy, like what he almost did when younger.  From there, it's not a huge step to getting to believe that he needs to exterminate all humans everywhere, in order to have Navani for himself and only himself.

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Well, that would be inflaming the negative emotion of jealousy, which isn't a function of love. Plenty of people love people passionately without having unreasonable jealousy. Jealousy is more a function of insecurity. Anyway, my point is, it's kind of convoluted even if you assume a premise where passionate love inevitably causes an equally passionate jealousy. The additional steps involved in the approach simply aren't necessary, and he had no reason to believe his plan as it was devised wouldn't work creating a necessity for a convoluted plan.

Inflame love -> inspire jealousy -> inflame jealousy -> make him angry and want to kill things.

Inflame battle lust -> make him angry and want to kill things.

Basically, he doesn't need to manufacture a negative emotion that already exists, he needs only inflame it.

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4 minutes ago, Ookla, the Incalculable said:

And as Oversleep (who I can't tag cause Ookla) brought up on discord earlier, the new forms the rhythms take when filtered through voidspren are quite telling. 

Destruction, fury, derision, spite. 

They're all tainted by hate. 

Quoting from the Odium is Broken thread.

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I don't understand what you're getting at there?

Do you mean that because the forms of the rhythms are all associated with negativity that he cannot inflame positivity? That wouldn't prove that to be the case, it would only prove that he doesn't inflame positivity. An absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

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But why does he *never* corrupt positive emotions?  He could have twisted the Kholin's troops' love of Dalinar into over-defensiveness, and possessed them, then he'd have had two armies in Thaylenah.  When he failed to twist Dalinar with the Thrill, why didn't he twist love into jealousy? He *never* twists a positive emotion, even when it would be advantageous, or when a negative emotion failed.

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Okay, well, this is my interpretation of it:

If the intent is passion, it grants the ability to manipulate emotion by adding or removing passion. This is a neutral power with neither positive or negative connotation.

Rayse the shard holder is described variously as being rather hateful, which implies a bias toward negative emotion. Shard holders cannot choose the intent of the shard, but they can direct the intent of the shard akin to channelling the intent through the lens of their own point of view.

So the combination of shardic intent and the nature of Rayse as an individual creates an entity with a bias toward creating passion for negative emotion and inhibiting passion for positive emotion. They very act of that behaviour is odious, and so it's not inaccurate to describe him as odium personified.

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