[OB] Adolin-Shallan-Kaladin Discussion

DeployParachute · January 7, 2018

7 hours ago, Greywatch said:

If we want to talk about something that I think Adolin actually would lose it about it would be him finding out the truth about Evi's death. Shallan being abused as a child and taking the steps to defend herself and her brothers? Not in the same class.

I agree, Adolin is so emotionally invested in Shallan, that I just don't see any revelations she has for him to trigger any kind of angry it upset response. At least not from anything she had done up to this point

And YES! I want to see Adolin blow up over Evi, absolutely. Now that is a compelling Adolin narrative I can get behind. What will Adolin's (arguably righteous) anger cause him to do, and who will it cause him to hurt. Gimme gimme gimme

NamelessThirteenth · January 7, 2018

Man I always imagine Adolin as the kinda guy who, once he really gets invested in a girl, will never let go. That and the fact that Kaladin doesn't want to make his move, I think we really won't get anywhere until one of them dies, or a forced move occurs

wingedangeldawn · January 7, 2018

It’s funny, I jumped on this feed because I truthfully haven’t finished the book and just wanted to see if Shallan gets some of her stuff together before the end of the book. I really am not invested in either “love story” because I am not sure they are well developed at this point to even really be considered that. Even though I’m not all the way through I am through enough to not feel like the love stories at this point in the series have enough emotional weight behind them to make them feel central to the story.

I really do find Shallans character to be interesting just for the sheer fact that she is so severely broken. I want to see her really take control of herself a bit more instead of constantly fracturing parts of her personality/personalities. It is like a conscious form of schizophrenia that I find both fascinating and disturbing. We have a long way to go in this series and time to really deal with how Shallan will grow as a character but the further she down the rabbit hole she goes the less I have patience with it. Now I don’t expect her to magically have an epiphany one day and be cured but it would be nice to see she at least is on the road to recovery a little but from what I have gathered here it looks like not so much. Which is a little discouraging but since she really isn’t my favorite character will not stop me from reading the rest. I am actually pretty relieved she doesn’t get with Kal.

Edited January 7, 2018 by Greywatch
Please don't try to get around the swear filter.

wotbibliophile · January 7, 2018

6 hours ago, Greywatch said:

I just don't see those traits as gone from Shallan just because she put them in Veil and Radiant - they still exist in Shallan, and she used those traits in herself to play the part. Those traits will "come back" to Shallan (bad phrasing but what-have-you) as she realizes she can express them in her own person again. Where up until now, she's been too afraid to express those traits publicly, by accepting herself more and more, the alters will "take over" less and less. Veil and Radiant not functioning without Shallan is an absolute given - they're inventions of her. Shallan can function without the alters; she made them because she thinks she can't but - assuming of course that the end result will indeed be reintegration - one day Shallan will be there and the alters will not. I disagree that Shallan using her own traits to create alters means that those traits suddenly stopped existing in her.

I feel like you are making my point for me. I agree with all of this. I think all of Veil and Radiant's feelings and capabilities are Shallan's (not their backstory of course. Shallan needed that to be different so that she could pretend she did not kill her mother.) Shallan pretends Veil is infatuated with Kaladin but she (Shallan) is not and she pretends Radiant can hold her shardblade but she (Shallan) cannot. That is all her. She is the one with those feelings and she is the one who is capable of holding her shardblade and learning to wield it. These are Shallan's attributes. The point is Shallan is not functioning right now without her alters. Like you said she made them because she thinks she can't. I want to her to realize that yes she can because that is what she has been doing. But she is pretending so fiercely that she cannot do these things; that only Veil and Radiant can. This is where she is stuck. This is why I do not see her progressing. She is pretending that she is three people when she is one person with complex feelings and various abilities. She is lying to herself and she believes the lie. Like Pattern says "your lies wrap other lies." (This is when he calls her Shallan and she says call me Veil.) This moment is straight to the point.

2 hours ago, wingedangeldawn said:

I really am not invested in either “love story” because I am not sure they are well developed at this point to even really be considered that. Even though I’m not all the way through I am through enough to not feel like the love stories at this point in the series have enough emotional weight behind them to make them feel central to the story.

I am invested in the love story but dang I agree it is not well developed. The love story doesn't have to be central but Sanderson has packed emotional weight into just a few pages in OB itself and in his other books. That this love story does not have emotional weight is disappointing.

GoddessIMHO · January 7, 2018

On 1/5/2018 at 5:01 AM, Dreamstorm said:

As far as Shallan ending up with Adolin, I found the pivotal scene to be the one before the one being discussed above - the one where Shallan settles down on the wall walk and Adolin approaches her and squeezes her hand to pick “Shallan” - as this is the scene where Shallan actually chooses Adolin. (She informs him of her decision in the next “I’m not an object” scene.) Two things about the writing here convince me that this was not supposed to be a “strong” moment for Shallan.

First, we had clearly established symbolism from the end of part 3 that the strong Shallan is the “girl who stood up.” In the Adolin portion of this scene, Shallan is sitting down (settled against the wall wall - it’s at the beginning of the scene.) It’s while she’s sitting that she flickers personas and Adolin chooses “Shallan”. So Shallan is sitting for this pivotal choice of “which personality is really me.” When Kaladin lands, she (as Veil) stands up and thinks to approach Kaladin. Brandoestablished clear sitting/standing symbolism for Shallan, and I think he is the quality of author who isn’t careless with using these elements once established; he has to be thinking about positioning given the emphasis he put on that positioning. This can be read as “Shallan” is the girl sitting down and Veil is the girl standing up, or Shallan around Adolin is the girl sitting down and Shallan around Kaladin is the girl standing up. Either way, I believe this placement to be intentional and is meant to highlight the healthiness (or lack thereof) of Shallan’s choice. (I only noticed it myself when mentioned by a (Shadolin!) fan who went to a signing.)

But it is the standing Shallan who decides to merely wave at Kaladin and walk away to search for Adolin.

January 7, 2018

3 minutes ago, GoddessIMHO said:

But it is the standing Shallan who decides to merely wave at Kaladin and walk away to search for Adolin.

The point is, that she makes her decision while sitting.

wotbibliophile · January 7, 2018

There is also the fact that Shallan is sitting and feeling weak and disoriented, but when she sees Kaladin that is when she stands up. Suddenly she is feeling strong. This happens earlier in OB as well. Shallan is on Honor's Path and thinks that she can't retreat to Veil right now because Veil is feeling broken. But when talking to Kaladin Veil peaks out and is super involved in helping him figure out a way to escape the honorspren. (This happens just before Shallan thinks Veil is too broken.) Veil's feelings for Kaladin are so strong that even the pain she feels about her failure in Kholinar can't keep her from drooling over him. Shallan stuff's Veil away because Veil starts drooling.

Edited January 7, 2018 by wotbibliophile

PhineasGage · January 7, 2018

Hi all! I'm finally back - hope you all enjoyed your break from me

So I've spent 2 days catching up on the 20+ pages you all wrote over the last 2 weeks (or is it 3?) and found it all a very interesting read - but far too much to comment on each point individually! Well done!

Anyway, I've been re-reading over Christmas but with family dramas and other animals, I haven't finished it yet, but I've slowly been bringing together some thoughts and I'll probably share them in some detail in a week or 2.

With regards to some threads here that have arisen, I have some thoughts I'd like to add:

Regarding Adolin's reaction to finding out Shallan's murdering her parents;

I think Adolin will be horrified initially but come to terms with the fact of the murders quite quickly, and likely be pretty decent about the whole thing. I suspect that it will be some time before Shallan confides in him (indeed I doubt it will happen in the time skip because it should be something we see on screen) and I think he will understandably be more upset about her hiding it from him for so long. He will be especially hurt if he finds out she told Kaladin about her father's death but not him.

I think there are a few things that lead me to think she won't reveal the murder:

Her brothers are around now and they were complicit in her father's death. She won't want them hurt by the murder so she might admit that her father is dead, but not how it happened. I think Balat in particular would be happier to put the episode behind him.
She worries how Adolin will react. I don't think this is fair to Adolin - he has a right to know what she has done. On top of that she is giving him no credit.
She cannot afford to be seen as a murderess by society if she is to help lead the KR (this is certainly up for debate, but I think that Alethi society will frown upon her and Adolin if she is known to have killed her parents - regardless of the curcumastances)

Of the two murders, the more chilling one is definitely the murder of Lin Davar - it was planned - she tried to poison him first and had probably had the idea in the back of her mind for a long time given how long she kept the Blackbane for - it was probably a subconscious thought, but there nonetheless. It was in self-defence technically, but there is a sociopathic element to it - indeed of the 4 children present, only Shallan can act. This act has some similarities with what Adolin does with Sadeas. The difference is that Adolin shows very little remorse (he is worried about being caught, but he isn't sorry about it). Shallan on the other hand seems much more remorseful. That might just be my take on it, and not sure it matters that much. The point I am trying to make is that their actions are not so dissimilar but Shallan herself doesn't open up to Adolin.

Note I am less cncerned with Tyn's murder - not only was that self defence, but given the way in which Shallan arrived on the Shattered Plains (she admits to having been shipwrecked) any sensible person would have considered that Shallan may have had to manage some very difficult situations. I don't think Adolin assumes Shallan killed or anything like that, but he isn't stupid (tho I don't consider him terribly bright either) so he must hve realised her journey couldnt have been as smooth as she implied.

So why do I think Adolin will initially be horrified? Well he's normal. Shallan's reaction (ie nothing) to Adolin's declaration of his murder of Sadeas was decidedly odd. Adolin is much more grounded and stable so he'll handle the situation in a "normal" way - ie probably be horrified - though I don't think he'll get angry or condemnatory to Shallan - but he will have a strong emotional reaction - indeed it may be sympathy for her - tho I wonder if she will reject that - she is not good at "being protected". As long as he lets her get the full story out then he will likely be supportive. The issue I have is how he does it. If he thinks she is effectively possesed by Radiant and Veil rather than accepting they are part of her then he might try to encourage her to place the blame on one of her alts which is not the case because the alts only appeared in OB as a direct consequence of her 4th Ideal.

Ok point 2: Shallan's personas/masks

I am very much in the camp that Shallan is a sufferer of OSDD. Having re-read about 2/3rds of OB with full notetaking I am very comfortable with this as a provisional diagnosis. If we accept this diagnosis then we need to be very careful about how we term her various facets. There have been a number of ways we have covered it in this thread, but it is vital that everyone commenting understands what is meant.

OSDD is a form of dissociation. It usually happens in people who experienced extreme abuse during childhood (though it is a rare condition overall and by no means the only possibly outcome of an abusive childhood). It results in a "core" personality fragmenting. It is a bit like the way Adonalsium was fractured - the shards make sense on their own (to an extent) but when viewed in context of the whole, it changes the way each shard's intent manifests. See the letter in tWoK (I think) about Odium being God's divine hatred being separarted from the context of the other intents.

Shallan is currently in 3 alters known as Shallan, Veil, and Radiant. There is unlikely to be another "hidden" alter but it is technically possible. However by definition we haven't got proof. The best proof of one would be the uncoscious drawings she does of Urithiru and Nergaoul in Part 1 of OB but an alter is not necessary for those drawings to exist - she has other dissociative states she retreats to and this is most likely the result of one of those.

It is very important in OSDD to understand that each alter is vital to the whole personality. Even a small fragment (eg Radiant seems the "smallest" - ie least complex) is still intrinsic to a personality because of the way it can impact other more "important" traits. For example, Radiant's pragmatism might have prevented Veil from making the mistakes she makes in Kholinar because she'd have stayed more divorced from proceedings than we see Veil do - and that might have meant that Grund didn't die, or Veil would have handled the whole situation better.

In tWoK and WOR in contrast, Shallan only uses personas - they are masks for her to put on and discard as she likes - she doesn't think dramatically differently when wearing the faces of the maid at Amaram's, or Amaram himself - but she starts to do so in Kholinar in OB as a result of OSDD. This is important.

Shallan does wear a persona for Adolin - thats normal for a girl who has essentially been set up on an epic level blind date with a Prince. Of course she tries to hide her feet of clay. The issue I have is that she hasn't really tried to reveal herself fully to Adolin and now they are married.

I personally wouldn't mind her being cagey still if they weren't married, but they are - and Adolin has no idea about what he's got himself into and she hasn't actually given him a chance. Once again, I don't think this is very fair of her.

So why is this important? I for one, don't think "Veil" is a bigger fragment than "Shallan", but both "Shallan" and "Veil" represent larger fragments of trueShallan than Radiant does. The size though doesn't matter - absence of even the tiniest fragment would result in potentially important personality changes. What I do think is that it means that we cannot dismiss the feelings of any single alter - no matter what. "Shallan" has feelings for Adolin, "Veil" has feelings for Kaladin, and Radiant is more interested in the relative merits of each man - and weighs them accordingly. TrueShallan therefore must feel all of these but she has built artifical walls between her alters which separates them. On top of that, we have disagreement between the alters about the marriage to Adolin. It is normal to have misgivings about getting married - but trueShallan pushes that fear onto "Veil" so that "Shallan" doesnt have to expereince it. She manages all her internal conflict this way by the end of OB and honestly it isn't healthy because she will never reintergrate if she doesn't get her alts to reconcile. She has made no effort to do that yet. Hence, she has a long way to go (as per WoB)

This might suggest that Shallan's romantic arcs arent completed yet - not necessaruly that the current situation will change, but until she reconciles herself to the crush she had on Kaladin and push it aside, she cannot be said to be completely committed to Adolin.

And this leads me to Point 3:

Shallan is not committed to Adolin. She should be, but she isn't. A significant portion of her sees herself as Adolin's drinking buddy and no more and is seriously crushing on Kaladin. Once again, not fair on Adolin. I don't blame Shallan for this - she is in the grip of a very serious condition that is essentially the fault of her parents. But at the same time, she hasn't actually accepted her position - instead she is pushing the fears she has onto Veil and not actually genuinely deliberating between her choices (or accepting that she could easily choose neither if she really wanted to). I don't want to suggest that her choice of Adolin is wrong per se, but I definitely feel her reasons are wrong and don't do justice to Adolin, Kaladin or indeed Shallan herself. The issue is that unlike a "normal" situation where the internal conflicts are managed through some form of reconcilliation between conflicting ideas, Shallan maintains her conflicts and until she faces those conflicts and actually manages them properly, her issues are going to continue boiling on.

Personally I think this is also reflected in plot points that affect Shallan directly - ie the triangle, Helaran's death, and the murder of Sadeas. Shallan chooses nt to address her internal conflicts and this results in her not facing external conflicts either.

Right I've got to go (already) but I may be back soon with a chapter by chapter analysis of different points- not necessarily just to do with A/S/K tho if no one minds some slight off topic comments?

Dreamstorm · January 7, 2018

1 hour ago, GoddessIMHO said:

But it is the standing Shallan who decides to merely wave at Kaladin and walk away to search for Adolin.

Also the tired Shallan - I’ll give you she’s determined - determined to stuff Veil and Radiant (this is when Radiant switches to being Team Kal) into the back part of her brain. Want to take on the how the stuffing to back part of brain can be seen as a good thing?

40 minutes ago, wotbibliophile said:

There is also the fact that Shallan is sitting and feeling weak and disoriented, but when she sees Kaladin that is when she stands up. Suddenly she is feeling strong. This happens earlier in OB as well. Shallan is on Honor's Path and thinks that she can't retreat to Veil right now because Veil is feeling broken. But when talking to Kaladin Veil peaks out and is super involved in helping him figure out a way to escape the honorspren. (This happens just before Shallan thinks Veil is too broken.) Veil's feelings for Kaladin are so strong that even the pain she feels about her failure in Kholinar can't keep her from drooling over him. Shallan stuff's Veil away because Veil starts drooling.

We got some great imagery of Shallan from Adolin’s PoV here. The “stood solidly on two feet” is fantastic, especially how it echos the forcefulness of the Wit illusion that “set her jaw and stood there.”

Quote

Just ahead of him, Shallan seemed to change. It was in her bearing, the way she stopped resting lightly on one foot, and stood solidly on two feet instead. The way her posture shifted.

@PhineasGage Welcome back!!! I for one missed your commentary!

January 8, 2018

8 hours ago, PhineasGage said:

I for one, don't think "Veil" is a bigger fragment than "Shallan", but both "Shallan" and "Veil" represent larger fragments of trueShallan than Radiant does. The size though doesn't matter - absence of even the tiniest fragment would result in potentially important personality changes. What I do think is that it means that we cannot dismiss the feelings of any single alter - no matter what. "Shallan" has feelings for Adolin, "Veil" has feelings for Kaladin, and Radiant is more interested in the relative merits of each man - and weighs them accordingly. TrueShallan therefore must feel all of these but she has built artifical walls between her alters which separates them. On top of that, we have disagreement between the alters about the marriage to Adolin. It is normal to have misgivings about getting married - but trueShallan pushes that fear onto "Veil" so that "Shallan" doesnt have to expereince it. She manages all her internal conflict this way by the end of OB and honestly it isn't healthy because she will never reintergrate if she doesn't get her alts to reconcile. She has made no effort to do that yet. Hence, she has a long way to go (as per WoB)

Bigger fragment is probably the wrong word for it, I agree, that the size doesn't matter. Shallan isn't Shallan unless all of her alters are there - regardless of size. It is just, that, per WoK annotation, we know, that Brandon considers a more vivacious, more passionate Shallan to be the more real "her". I think, that exactly this is represented in Veil, which could make Veil much more character-defining, if and when all of her alters are reintegrated.

I agree on the artificial walls though and I personally think, that the "stuffing back Veil and Radiant into her head" is further fortifying those walls.

8 hours ago, PhineasGage said:

If he thinks she is effectively possesed by Radiant and Veil rather than accepting they are part of her then he might try to encourage her to place the blame on one of her alts which is not the case because the alts only appeared in OB as a direct consequence of her 4th Ideal.

This would be a huge problem. Poor Pattern.

8 hours ago, PhineasGage said:

I think Adolin will be horrified initially but come to terms with the fact of the murders quite quickly, and likely be pretty decent about the whole thing. I suspect that it will be some time before Shallan confides in him (indeed I doubt it will happen in the time skip because it should be something we see on screen) and I think he will understandably be more upset about her hiding it from him for so long. He will be especially hurt if he finds out she told Kaladin about her father's death but not him.

That is all I'm saying too, but, at the risk of projecting, I think it would be normal if this would create a kind of rift. If my spouse would have been hiding such things from me for months - especially if we got married in the mean time - I would certainly see it as a breach of trust. I would be devastated, that she thinks it isn't important, that I know of such things. And it would natually bring me to think: "What else has she been hiding from me?" And I absolutely think, that I'm not the strange one for thinking that. I think, not thinking that would be odd.

Then again, Adolin's reactions have always been far from normal and he seems to just always accept everything (except the thing with not wanting to be king, props for that), which is something that I really have to criticize about his character.

PhineasGage · January 8, 2018

3 hours ago, SLNC said:

I think it would be normal if this would create a kind of rift.

Hmm I think either a rift or the absence of one could be normal - it depends on exactly the situation of how the info comes out.

For example, if Shallan goes to Adolin and explains and apologises for not telling him etc then I think Adolin will be able to put his hurt aside pretty quickly. Because he himself is "mentally direct" he has a tendency to assume that others are equally so - and thus he would assume that if Shallan came to him and told her story, he would probably assume she told him the whole thing. Especially if she couches her hiding it from him because she was worried about losing his regard. If however, he finds out about Lin's death from (eg) Kaladin - rather like how Shallan finds out about Helaran's death from Adolin, I don't see Adolin reacting so well. I could see him getting angry about it - because unlike Shallan he handles his stresses at the time rather than stewing over them. In that case I would see him going straight to Shallan and demanding to know why Kaladin knows more about his wife than he does. And I would definitely think he had a right to do that.

We do see Adolin get mad - he gets angry at Dalinar in tWoK. He struggles with his temper on several occasions with Sadeas. That said, he does not have "anger issues" because he doesn't get unreasonably angry in most situations - the murder of Sadeas is the first time we really see him lose control, and even then I would argue that Adolin is not actually completely out of control (he even feels somewhat amused by the situation. That is actually why I find the murder so distasteful and chilling - a loss of control would in some way be more understandable to me personally, though still not something I could condone.

One thing that was discussed several days ago was Jasnah and Shallan and Jasnah's role in Shallan's fragmentation. I cant remember who exactly said what but I wanted to add my thoughts if thats ok?

I believe some feel that Jasnah may have been unnecessarily manipulative of Shallan when she berates her (gently imo) after Shallan was caught drawing Kaladin.

My personal feeling is not that Jasnah was intrinsically pushing Shallan away from Kaladin so much as saying its not ok to make sheep's eyes at one man while being engaged to another. Jasnah herself discusses Kaladin in fairly positive terms (when Shallan and Jasnah first meet after Jasnah's return for example - at the beginning of Part 2) and I don't think she blames Shallan per se. Shallan may perceive it that way - but just as we cannot blame Kaladin for how Shallan percieves his attitude to her pushing things aside mentally, we cannot blame Jasnah for how Shallan takes her words. Not that it is Shallan's fault either, but of all people, Jasnah is the least in favour of marriage in concept we've met - she is probably thinking that Shallan is proving why marriage is a risky prospect at best, even if the women involved are equal partners - which i not the case in most Alethi marriages (imo).

I think Jasnah is pushing Shallan to decide between the two men - and either call off the betrothal to Adolin, or stop mooning over Kaladin. I dont think we can assume that Jasnah feels that Shallan should choose Adolin at this stage - after all Shallan has achieved so much with simply the causal in place, and by being attached to either Kaladin or Adolin would see her bound to the Kholins equally well because of Kaladin's almost extreme loyalty (for someone not of the family). I think, given Shallan tendency to be secretive (which I think Jasnah is legitimately worried about) Jasnah simply wants Shallan contained in some way because I don't think Jasnah trusts Shallan's "moral compass" so she just wants Shallan tied to someone whose "moral compass" she can trust - both Adolin and Kaladin fit the requirements from Jasnah's persepective. At worst, she may prefer Adolin at this point because is a known quantity but we all know how quickly Kaladin inspires trust - and Dalinar's opinion of him would definitely have weight with Jasnah.

January 8, 2018

38 minutes ago, PhineasGage said:

My personal feeling is not that Jasnah was intrinsically pushing Shallan away from Kaladin so much as saying its not ok to make sheep's eyes at one man while being engaged to another. Jasnah herself discusses Kaladin in fairly positive terms (when Shallan and Jasnah first meet after Jasnah's return for example - at the beginning of Part 2) and I don't think she blames Shallan per se. Shallan may perceive it that way - but just as we cannot blame Kaladin for how Shallan percieves his attitude to her pushing things aside mentally, we cannot blame Jasnah for how Shallan takes her words. Not that it is Shallan's fault either, but of all people, Jasnah is the least in favour of marriage in concept we've met - she is probably thinking that Shallan is proving why marriage is a risky prospect at best, even if the women involved are equal partners - which i not the case in most Alethi marriages (imo).

I think Jasnah is pushing Shallan to decide between the two men - and either call off the betrothal to Adolin, or stop mooning over Kaladin. I dont think we can assume that Jasnah feels that Shallan should choose Adolin at this stage - after all Shallan has achieved so much with simply the causal in place, and by being attached to either Kaladin or Adolin would see her bound to the Kholins equally well because of Kaladin's almost extreme loyalty (for someone not of the family). I think, given Shallan tendency to be secretive (which I think Jasnah is legitimately worried about) Jasnah simply wants Shallan contained in some way because I don't think Jasnah trusts Shallan's "moral compass" so she just wants Shallan tied to someone whose "moral compass" she can trust - both Adolin and Kaladin fit the requirements from Jasnah's persepective. At worst, she may prefer Adolin at this point because is a known quantity but we all know how quickly Kaladin inspires trust - and Dalinar's opinion of him would definitely have weight with Jasnah.

I have to disagree here.

Even though Jasnah is gentle in the way she criticizes Shallan, she definitely includes her "wandering eyes" in exactly this criticism.

Quote

Jasnah sighed softly, opening up the sketchpad again. "Shallan," she said in a strangely... comforting tone. "I'm impressed. I am impressed, truly. But what I've heard of you recently is troubling. You've ingratiated yourself with my family, and made good on the causal betrothal to Adolin. Yet here you are with wandering eyes, as this sketch testifies."

"I-" (note how she doesn't even let Shallan interject. Definitely not a friendly conversation, but a teacher reprimanding her student.)

[Jasnah goes on about how Shallan skips meeting etc. etc.]

I definitely think, that she thinks, Shallan should choose Adolin, because of the way she is talking with Shallan. She finds Shallan's wandering eyes troubling. Comforting, but immovable, because it deviates from the plan.

Nevertheless, either if Jasnah's intentions were different or not, it did have an impact on Shallan. Her perception of that conversation is what is important, because after that her attitude towards Kaladin changed.

38 minutes ago, PhineasGage said:

For example, if Shallan goes to Adolin and explains and apologises for not telling him etc then I think Adolin will be able to put his hurt aside pretty quickly. Because he himself is "mentally direct" he has a tendency to assume that others are equally so - and thus he would assume that if Shallan came to him and told her story, he would probably assume she told him the whole thing. Especially if she couches her hiding it from him because she was worried about losing his regard.

I don't know. Like I said, for me, just the fact, that my wife, the woman I'm expecting to spend my life with, keeps secrets from me, regardless of the reason, would really hurt me. It is a sign, that my wife doesn't trust me. And trust is the foundation of a relationship. It would especially hurt me, when she says, that she was afraid to lose my regard, because that would show me how fragile she thinks our relationship actually is.

But like I said, Adolin often reacts oddly to certain situations. Maybe he'd do it there again. In fact, I'm expecting him to.

Edited January 8, 2018 by SLNC

PhineasGage · January 8, 2018

5 minutes ago, SLNC said:

I definitely think, that she thinks, Shallan should choose Adolin, because of the way she is talking with Shallan. She finds Shallan's wandering eyes troubling. Comforting, but immovable, because it deviates from the plan.

Nevertheless, either if Jasnah's intentions were different or not, it did have an impact on Shallan. Her perception of that conversation is what is important, because after that her attitude towards Kaladin changed.

Its certainly a valid interpretation. The point I am trying to make is that the "wandering eyes" comment only happens because Shallan is already in a semi-formal relationship with Adolin. Adolin is also the known quantity here, I doubt very much if Jasnah would choose him over Kaladin (or vice versa) for Shallan if she knew Adolin and Kaladin equally well. She simply wouldn't care because the ends are her goal with Shallan, not how she gets there. She is worried about Shallan's loyalties (understandably) and needs to make sure she has some control (via a proxy) over Shallan's actions. Adolin is easy to manipulate (from Jasnah's persepective) and thus a safer bet for Shallan, but in the long run, because he is easy to manipulate, Shallan will eventually manipulate Adolin (indeed we know Shallan already is manipulating Adolin, but Jasnah doesn't know this) and thus Kaladin is actually the better bet (from Jasnah's perspective I think) because his motivations are pretty transparent, but he isn't going to be swayed from his moral path which makes him a known quantity going forward. Jasnah may not agree with his ethics, but they are pretty set in stone, whereas Adolin's are much more fluid. Indeed, if Adolin does go dark, I would expect Shallan to have essentially helped him get there - (a la the "hardening" of Alistair or Leliana in Dragon Age Origins)

I very much agree that Shallan's interpretation is important because it is this moment where Veil starts to show interest in Kaladin. Some of that may have happened anyway, but it is clear that Veil did not have those feelings (likely this alter wasn't actually capable of those kinds of feelings initially) and after this the crush is pushed onto her so "Shallan" doesn't have to deal with it. I was more addressing the idea that Jasnah is being manipulative which I don't actually see - I think she has multiple reasons to promote the wedding - and I genuinely think she wants Shallan to be happy and not be "forced" into marrying Adolin if she doesn't want to. The issue is that Shallan is continuing the betrothal and thus her "wandering eyes" should be discouraged - at least until Shallan drops Adolin. Jasnah likely cares for Adolin - we see her caring a great deal for Renarin - and she wouldn't want him hurt unnecessarily. Given that it seems likely that Jasnah saw at least one of her parents (Gavilar) was probably unfaithful she likely has a pretty dim view of infidelity in marriage. I don't blame her for advocating against marital/pre-marital infidelity - indeed one of the ways she is "like a spren" (acording to Ivory) may be that she has "extrreme" views - like the Stormfather does.

Interestingly, I think that Jasnah would be very annoyed if Shallan cheated on Adolin (she might accept "looking" as long as it wasn't too focussed on a single person) despite her own attitude to marriage. That being said, if the marriage was failing (particularly for reasons aside from infidelity), I could see Jasnah supporting divorce as an option (NB she is possibly technically the head of the Vorin Church - like the Queen of England (etc) is the head of the Church of England). Thus a divorce may need to be granted by Royal Decree. If I'm right, then she would probably allow a divorce because she isn't bound to the Church - and it's beliefs/customs - like I suspect Elhokar would have been.

January 8, 2018

7 minutes ago, PhineasGage said:

I was more addressing the idea that Jasnah is being manipulative which I don't actually see - I think she has multiple reasons to promote the wedding - and I genuinely think she wants Shallan to be happy and not be "forced" into marrying Adolin if she doesn't want to.

Okay. Yeah. That I do agree with. I don't think she was purposefully manipulative either. I just wanted to point out, that she doesn't like the fact, that Shallan has wandering eyes, that doesn't mean that she is trying to manipulate Shallan though, that is correct.

7 minutes ago, PhineasGage said:

Interestingly, I think that Jasnah would be very annoyed if Shallan cheated on Adolin (she might accept "looking" as long as it wasn't too focussed on a single person) despite her own attitude to marriage. That being said, if the marriage was failing (particularly for reasons aside from infidelity), I could see Jasnah supporting divorce as an option (NB she is possibly technically the head of the Vorin Church - like the Queen of England (etc) is the head of the Church of England). Thus a divorce may need to be granted by Royal Decree. If I'm right, then she would probably allow a divorce because she isn't bound to the Church - and it's beliefs/customs - like I suspect Elhokar would have been.

That raises a very interesting point. Could certainly be.

Especially, because, unlike Elhokar, Jasnah doesn't really care about the favor of the Church.

Edited January 8, 2018 by SLNC

Rainier · January 8, 2018

On 1/6/2018 at 11:00 AM, Greywatch said:

Continued insistence that Adolin is one (and insisting that it's unreasonable) because he has traits that predispose him to great emotional intelligence, kindness, compassion, and stability... Traits that have been built into his character for three books in a row without fail... That's called consistency.

I'd give more credence to this if Adolin was still a womanizer or retained any of those characteristics past the first book. As it is, this aspect of his character gets completely dropped as soon as he's betrothed to our main character. I have yet to see any indications of that Adolin who we saw in WoK. While I expected it to show up in OB in the form of some problems between Shallan and Adolin I was sadly disappointed and I'm not hopeful I'll see that kind of development in book 4.

This was one of my biggest problems with Adolin in books 2 and 3. In book 1 we learned 3 things about him: he's loyal, he's a duelist, and he goes through new women more frequently than the Highstorm passes. The first two aren't very interesting, but the third gave him some flaw, some depth, some thing to his character. I'm not sure what happened to it, and I don't think we're seeing it again.

On 1/6/2018 at 3:41 PM, Greywatch said:

The use of "mask" lines up with how I think of people, all people, mentally healthy people and mentally ill people, covering up their flaws and trying to show their best face to someone. There. That's my take.

Yes, everyone is different people in different roles and in different circumstances. However this isn't a real person and she's already significantly split into personalities. She's not normal, so explaining her abnormalities with normal explanations seems pointless. Why make it a feature of her character if it's just something everyone does?

On 1/6/2018 at 5:19 PM, Greywatch said:

I disagree that Shallan using her own traits to create alters means that those traits suddenly stopped existing in her.

I'd say we have great evidence that it absolutely does. Shallan doesn't investigate the murders, Veil does. Veil has those skills and interests. Shallan doesn't wield Pattern as a shardblade, Radiant does. Radiant has those skills without the painful memories. So we know for a fact that she's already sloughed off those traits and skills and then only exhibits them within that personality. While obviously none of them generate wholly new powers or skills, they're each specialized. She gets more adept at switching rapidly between them, but they're each still firmly within their own lane.

January 8, 2018

17 minutes ago, Rainier said:

I'm not sure what happened to it, and I don't think we're seeing it again.

Isn't it obvious? He found THE ONE(tm). That makes it disappear. And people try to tell me, that that isn't cliché...

Edited January 8, 2018 by SLNC

PhineasGage · January 8, 2018

4 hours ago, Rainier said:

I'd give more credence to this if Adolin was still a womanizer or retained any of those characteristics past the first book. As it is, this aspect of his character gets completely dropped as soon as he's betrothed to our main character. I have yet to see any indications of that Adolin who we saw in WoK. While I expected it to show up in OB in the form of some problems between Shallan and Adolin I was sadly disappointed and I'm not hopeful I'll see that kind of development in book 4.

On one hand, I agree with you, but on another I suspect this may be a consequence of Adolin being difficult to read correctly as a result of much of his behaviour being portrayed by Shallan who is very unreliable.

I'd go so far as to worry about everything we see from Shallan - not necessarily assume that everything she tells us is wrong, but perhaps we should consider that each scene she shows us has errors in it. For one thing, we know she deliberately hides stuff from us (well Brandon does, but who's checking ) because she doesn't tell us about time she spends with Kaladin when they are alone (flight to TC and drawings she does outside Urithiru), and she has known/proven gaps in her memory that even she is somewhat aware of (think the drawings that she doesn't remember drawing). I would be quite comfortable with believing that she is deliberately not seeing Adolin's wandering eyes any more because it worries her. Perhaps one of the reasons Veil is less keen on Adolin is that she sees these flaws because they are pushed away from "Shallan".

I am not able to prove this of course, but I think it might explain why the wandering eyes disappear a bit whilst still allowing for Adolin to be internally consistent. He definitely looks at Azure (although I don't think there is a sexual element there) but Shallan doesn't really comment on it. Of course, in OB Adolin also has relatively little interaction with women aside from Shallan. I do wonder if some of Shallan's jealousy of one of Adolin's former lovers comes from a subconscious concern about his flightiness with regards to women.

The other people we see who tell us the most about Adolin are Kaladin and Dalinar. Kaladin is not terribly woman-focused (for the most part) and probably wouldn't comment unless Adolin was being really obvious. Dalinar is seemingly oblivious to Adolin's romantic proclivities - he didn't even try to keep up with Adolin's conquests before Shallan, and only really thought about them as tending to be rather vapid. On top of that, for OB Dalinar is largely separated from Adolin, and also concerned with more important things.

The reason I think this might be the case is because Adolin's internal narrative doesn't quite match (as pointed out previously by ? @Dreamstorm I believe?) with his actions as seen by Shallan. His thoughts about Azure and Shallan certainly don't match up with what he says to Shallan when they are on the ship and have changed clothes. Albeit his most flattering comments are actually for Kaladin so what to make of that I don't know....

I'm afraid I can't get on board Kadolin as a ship - but only from Kaladin's side - I could see Adolin going down that route, but not Kaladin - his thoughts about Adolin don't strike me that way at all. He is much more physically aware of Shallan all the time. I could probably get on board Kalarin more because Kal and Renarin to me work better - although I don't like the idea of Renarin viewing Kaladin as his (military) superior and also being involved romantically. I would also feel this way about any other person who was subordinate to Kaladin because of the problems of abuse of power and related issues.

maxal · January 9, 2018

20 hours ago, SLNC said:

That is all I'm saying too, but, at the risk of projecting, I think it would be normal if this would create a kind of rift. If my spouse would have been hiding such things from me for months - especially if we got married in the mean time - I would certainly see it as a breach of trust. I would be devastated, that she thinks it isn't important, that I know of such things. And it would natually bring me to think: "What else has she been hiding from me?" And I absolutely think, that I'm not the strange one for thinking that. I think, not thinking that would be odd.

Then again, Adolin's reactions have always been far from normal and he seems to just always accept everything (except the thing with not wanting to be king, props for that), which is something that I really have to criticize about his character.

The answer to your first paragraph highly depends on the individuals at hand... I quizzed my husband, asking how he would have reacted in a hypothetical situation similar to Shallan's predicament (I used rape and/or murder in self-defense as examples ). He told me he wouldn't have been mad: he would have understood these are terrible events which are hard to share. He then proceeded to tell what would have bothered him and it was knowing I had fun doing so stuff with some other guy, but not him

So huh, I guess it really depends on people as I am sure I would have reacted the same as him. I think I would have been disturbed, perturbed but this is not a "lie" which can be held against the one who makes it... It is such a grave event.

What is normal then depends on the individual and how the facts are presented. Arguably, normal for Adolin seems to readily accept everything with a strong face and act as if it doesn't bother him. On the other hand, it would make his character more interesting if he were to have a reaction, any reaction

10 hours ago, Rainier said:

I'd give more credence to this if Adolin was still a womanizer or retained any of those characteristics past the first book. As it is, this aspect of his character gets completely dropped as soon as he's betrothed to our main character. I have yet to see any indications of that Adolin who we saw in WoK. While I expected it to show up in OB in the form of some problems between Shallan and Adolin I was sadly disappointed and I'm not hopeful I'll see that kind of development in book 4.

This was one of my biggest problems with Adolin in books 2 and 3. In book 1 we learned 3 things about him: he's loyal, he's a duelist, and he goes through new women more frequently than the Highstorm passes. The first two aren't very interesting, but the third gave him some flaw, some depth, some thing to his character. I'm not sure what happened to it, and I don't think we're seeing it again.

I more or less disagree with those paragraphs as I do think Adolin's behavior with women is consistent within all three books. My personal impressions are readers wanted Adolin to be a womanized, they read he was a womanizer because of a handful of key sentences, but they ignored the clues indicating he never were a bee killer nor a Casanova.

When I was reading WoK, my initial impressions were Adolin indeed was the "womanizer" kind of character as he spoke of his numerous dates up until I realized his inner monologue was not right... Adolin is never looking out for the next conquest: he always systematically yearns to make it work, to not do a mistake, to not let the relationship crumble, like they always do. What hit me is he never seem to know how the failures happened nor what he did to trigger them. These always seemed to me as the wrong reactions for a real womanized as my perception of a womanizer would be of someone not caring about his relationships, not wanting them to last and someone losing interest rather quickly.

I didn't read Adolin was losing interest into any of his dates... I instead read a young man wanting his relationships to work out, but being able to put himself out there for it to happen. Each time they hit a bump, he systematically backed up. He also never seem to be on the hunt much for a womanizer... Janala? She courted him while he was dating another. Mashala? We do not know. Danlan? She aggressively called on him the second she set foot into the warcamps. Shallan? She pursued him and she was presented to him as his casual betrothed. Which woman had Adolin actually hunted, seduced and courted? None we could see within the book... A side glance to a waitress is a rather poor example. It seemed to me women are pursuing Adolin more than him. Him, if I follow what I have observed and the WoB we have gotten, he's just afraid he is not up to the challenge, so each time the stakes rise, he runs away. It is an unconscious behavior. He isn't doing it consciously, but he is avoiding having to put himself out there for someone to criticize.

I thought this behavior was highly consistent with OB. In OB, we saw how Adolin's teenage years were filled by being criticize by his hero, his idol. Constantly. For no valid reason. And Adolin's reaction is always the "perfect one": the one where he puts on a strong face, accepts the critic and works harder to comply next time. He always thinks he deserves the critic. He always thinks he is "not good enough". This is seen in OB when he wants to step down for Kaladin: he doesn't even think to fight for Shallan. He considers he has already lost the fight: he is unworthy, he is not good enough, if criticized, then of course it is because he deserves it.

It all works. Adolin never really was a womanizer, he always was a young man with low self-confidence when it comes to his personal worth and, as such, he developed issues developing relationships with others, despite having a sympathetic personality. It is why we aren't seeing Adolin courting other women when he is with Shallan: he never wanted those to happen, but they did, because he unconsciously always looked for a way out. Because he never thought he was worth it. Shallan however, with Shallan, there was a formality involved, something which initially prevented him to back away. It was decided for him, not by him, even if he ended up falling in love with her. Hence, it is different, but the story doesn't do a good job of portraying it.

All this to say, I wouldn't hold my breath to start seeing Adolin "court other women" or "have wandering eyes" because these behaviors only existed to hide a lack of self-confidence. Now Adolin voiced out his issues to Shallan, I do think the narrative considers it is a done deal and I do find it consistent with the previous books.

As for his women issues being the interesting aspect to his character, I tend to find his unhealthy relationship with his father to be far more interesting. I also liked the fact he was a "duelist" in a time where they needed "generals": the fact he will not define himself like the second one is interesting in itself. I liked the fact he never wanted to be a soldier and I find it interesting he has a hard time accepting he may need to kill other humans. Him having wandering eyes once? I never found it overly interesting, but YMMV.

January 9, 2018

3 hours ago, maxal said:

The answer to your first paragraph highly depends on the individuals at hand... I quizzed my husband, asking how he would have reacted in a hypothetical situation similar to Shallan's predicament (I used rape and/or murder in self-defense as examples ). He told me he wouldn't have been mad: he would have understood these are terrible events which are hard to share. He then proceeded to tell what would have bothered him and it was knowing I had fun doing so stuff with some other guy, but not him

So huh, I guess it really depends on people as I am sure I would have reacted the same as him. I think I would have been disturbed, perturbed but this is not a "lie" which can be held against the one who makes it... It is such a grave event.

What is normal then depends on the individual and how the facts are presented. Arguably, normal for Adolin seems to readily accept everything with a strong face and act as if it doesn't bother him. On the other hand, it would make his character more interesting if he were to have a reaction, any reaction

Oh, of course, my take on that was heavily opinionated by, well, myself

I also want to add, that I certainly would appreciate, that my hypothetical spouse finally told me, but I would still be hurt, but it would not be unfixable. It just would require dedication on both sides. I just think, that most people see trust as one of the biggest pillars of a relationship and that includes honesty. Especially, when you yourself, like Adolin is by confessing killing Sadeas to Shallan, are, but your partner isn't.

Still, I find it extremely hard to gauge a possible reaction by Adolin. On one hand, he seems to be always accepting and understanding to many things, on the other hand, he sometimes completely loses it and gets angry (like at Dalinar or killing Sadeas). He's very erratic, when it comes to emotional responses.

3 hours ago, maxal said:

It all works. Adolin never really was a womanizer, he always was a young man with low self-confidence when it comes to his personal worth and, as such, he developed issues developing relationships with others, despite having a sympathetic personality. It is why we aren't seeing Adolin courting other women when he is with Shallan: he never wanted those to happen, but they did, because he unconsciously always looked for a way out. Because he never thought he was worth it. Shallan however, with Shallan, there was a formality involved, something which initially prevented him to back away. It was decided for him, not by him, even if he ended up falling in love with her. Hence, it is different, but the story doesn't do a good job of portraying it.

I don't know

Like @PhineasGage and @Dreamstorm already noted, his internal monologue just doesn't fit for that. He might have developed a lower self-esteem, since the Radiants began to reemerge, but I never saw him as that in WoK. Not even in those relationships. The continued failure might have lowered his self-esteem in the longer run, but I always saw his main reason for failed courtships as good old disinterest. He continued to court suitable women, because he was expected to marry sooner or later, but I more and more am confident, that he just wasn't really interested in long-term relationships. And still isn't. I don't want to say, that he is asexual, nor do I want to say, that he is completely focused on the sexual part of relationships, but he never felt fully committed (for instance, that he forgets dates, that he had, while scheduling another at the same time).

Now Shallan came along and there was an official causal put in place, an exclusive courtship, so the expectations are raised even more. Adolin is thrilled about, that because, if he is one thing, it is dutiful and he hopes, that this raised expectations will finally get him to commit. Now, I know, that Adolin tells Kaladin, that he wants to keep Shallan, which certainly can be interpreted, that he is falling in love with her, but(!) we are learning in OB, that he often enough tells things, that he actually doesn't mean, especially to keep up expectations. For instance, in Shadesmar, he is talking to Shallan and immediately gets distracted by a highstorm in the distance and fully focuses on that. Then Shallan says, that she must be ugly, blah, blah, blah. And he flatout lies to her, that she is so beautiful not even the highstorm doesn't match her beauty. Why is that a lie? Because he definitely got easily distracted by the highstorm. Same goes for where he sees Shallan in Veil's clothes. In his head he criticizes the cut and all, but he tells her, that it fits her. He says, what he thinks he is expected to say to keep Shallan, well and Shallan swallows it hook, line and sinker, because she desperately wants it to work out too, but for different reasons. Bottom line, I think, that the discrepancy between Adolin's thoughts and what he says is an indicator, that he doesn't really want a long-term relationship with Shallan. Yes, he thinks, she looks good, yes, he cares for her, but that is nothing, that he exclusively thinks for Shallan. He also considered his old courtships to be beautiful and he cares for everyone close and dear to him. Maybe she even intrigues him, but he never has a thought of: "Man I really want to stay with her." Also he never really gets jealous. I know, that not everyone is openly jealous, but even internally he is just a bit crestfallen, when Shallan leers at Kaladin. Probably because he feels like, he once again doesn't meet expectations.

For the conversation with Shallan at the end... They had one before, the one where Adolin wants to retreat from their causal, where the whole "He knows me" shenanigans happened, which basically set their relationship in stone, at least for Shallan. He then returns to her (at a later date? I really get confused by the timeline at the end of OB) and tells her, that he retreats so she can be with Kaladin. Sadly, we don't get an Adolin PoV in between, so I can only speculate, but based on the previous arguments I've give, I think, that he got cold feet, because he himself doesn't feel committed at all. His lack of thought of Shallan in his PoVs are testament to that. That Veil/Shallan leers at Kaladin is just a convenient reason to retreat from Shallan for him, because he still had a reason to give, if Navani, Jasnah or Dalinar would ask, why he broke off the betrothal. He could just say, that Shallan fell in love with Kaladin and no one would care. Well, Shallan convinces him otherwise. Why? Because she openly asked him for his help. And Adolin just can't say no to a friend in need of help. But is it love? I doubt it. It is a mixture of meeting expectations and his desire to help a friend. @DeployParachute pointed that out here. That Shallan only convinces him on the third try, when she asks for help. Note: I know, that he says, that he wants her. And it makes sense, because he is worried about Shallan's condition, but, like I already said, discrepancy between what he says and thinks. That doesn't have to mean, that he means, that he really wants to be with Shallan. He has to keep up the impression though. He can't break off the betrothal by himself, because he doesn't want to fail his expectations again. If the betrothal got broken off, it had to be from Shallan's side or mutual.

Edited January 9, 2018 by SLNC

PhineasGage · January 9, 2018

5 hours ago, maxal said:

It all works. Adolin never really was a womanizer, he always was a young man with low self-confidence when it comes to his personal worth

I don't know.... I mean he was dating one woman and hit on her sister at the same time at one point. It is why they broke up. I don't think "womanizer" works properly as an epithet for him, but his commitment issues are a thing.

Given that there is a WoB on Adolin self-sabotaging his relationships, I do agree that we have to assume he has done this multiple times. The thing is, I am less sure why he does it so consistently. I mean, I get that he lacks confidence in this area, but that doesn't mean he lacks confidence in every area of his life. It is not clear to me why he lacks confidence in this area - he seems happy to approach women of various descriptions and start things off most of the time.

My personal take is that Adolin is more concerned with the appearance of his love-life than the depth of it. He is certainly concerned with appearances in other settings, not only his own. I suspect this is the real damage that Dalinar's treatment of him caused - he needed to be loved/accepted etc and so tried to portray the perfect son (nb reflects Shallan's perfect daughter issues) and he tries to be the perfect boyfriend/fiancee/husband as well. Unfortunately for his wife, he is not nearly as committed to her as he is to Dalinar (at least not yet) and so he gets bored eventually of pretending to be something he isn't. I personally don't blame him.

Don't get me wrong, he genuinely likes Shallan. I think he cares for her. But, once again, he is the normal one here. Given the brevity of their relationship, the fact that until recently they have always been heavily chaperoned, the formality of the causal, and the fact that he has pushed away every other eligible woman, it would be very odd for him to have depth of feeling yet. The problem arises because he has manoeuvered himself into a position where he has to marry her. That is, until he sees an out - then he uses it. Unfortunately for him, she doesn't let him and they end up married. I don't think Adolin is completely aware of his self-sabotaging behaviour - he certainly doesn't seem to be anyway so he seems happy enough in the marriage. I just think that both he and Shallan are telling themselves a lie here to make the marriage work. That isn't healthy for either of them. It will unravel unless some serious honesty happens. Perhaps even that can't save it.

4 hours ago, SLNC said:

He might have developed a lower self-esteem, since the Radiants began to reemerge, but I never saw him as that in WoK. Not even in those relationships. The continued failure might have lowered his self-esteem in the longer run, but I always saw his main reason for failed courtships as good old disinterest.

So as @maxal ointed out there is a WoB on this. But having low self-esteem in one area doesn't mean he lacks confidence in other areas. I suppose you could even argue that both Kaladin and Adolin have less confidence in romance than they do in other parts of their lives. They are young, its normal. Indeed of the 3 of them, Shallan shows the least concern in this area - particularly once she already feels more secure about Adolin.

I feel that Adolin spends most of his time wearing a mask of sorts. He has pretended that he is the perfect son and prince for so long (for Dalinar) that he does it automatically now. It isn't like Shallan's situation, and I don't think it is "unhealthy" except that it risks him blowing up against expectations - like when he murdered Sadeas. If he genuinely is more concerned with appearance (nb he notices appearace a lot - eg he notices Danlan matches her wine to her outfit) then his moral outlook will be very much greyer than (eg) Dalinar's because it will be more fluid to fit in with the people he is on display to. There is nothing wrong with that - indeed it actually makes him a very useful secondary character because his morality will allow him to do things others can't or won't in similar situations.

5 hours ago, SLNC said:

He can't break off the betrothal by himself, because he doesn't want to fail his expectations again. If the betrothal got broken off, it had to be from Shallan's side or mutual.

I agree with this. I would even argue that he deliberately annoys girls to get them to break things off for him. I don't know about you, but I've done this with 1 ex and it is very effective, although in my case it took far longer than I'd have liked!

January 9, 2018

59 minutes ago, PhineasGage said:

Given that there is a WoB on Adolin self-sabotaging his relationships, I do agree that we have to assume he has done this multiple times. The thing is, I am less sure why he does it so consistently. I mean, I get that he lacks confidence in this area, but that doesn't mean he lacks confidence in every area of his life. It is not clear to me why he lacks confidence in this area - he seems happy to approach women of various descriptions and start things off most of the time.

My personal take is that Adolin is more concerned with the appearance of his love-life than the depth of it. He is certainly concerned with appearances in other settings, not only his own. I suspect this is the real damage that Dalinar's treatment of him caused - he needed to be loved/accepted etc and so tried to portray the perfect son (nb reflects Shallan's perfect daughter issues) and he tries to be the perfect boyfriend/fiancee/husband as well. Unfortunately for his wife, he is not nearly as committed to her as he is to Dalinar (at least not yet) and so he gets bored eventually of pretending to be something he isn't. I personally don't blame him.

Don't get me wrong, he genuinely likes Shallan. I think he cares for her. But, once again, he is the normal one here. Given the brevity of their relationship, the fact that until recently they have always been heavily chaperoned, the formality of the causal, and the fact that he has pushed away every other eligible woman, it would be very odd for him to have depth of feeling yet. The problem arises because he has manoeuvered himself into a position where he has to marry her. That is, until he sees an out - then he uses it. Unfortunately for him, she doesn't let him and they end up married. I don't think Adolin is completely aware of his self-sabotaging behaviour - he certainly doesn't seem to be anyway so he seems happy enough in the marriage. I just think that both he and Shallan are telling themselves a lie here to make the marriage work. That isn't healthy for either of them. It will unravel unless some serious honesty happens. Perhaps even that can't save it.

This is basically the gist of what I've been trying to say longwindedly.

I am aware of the WoB. I think, it is this one.

Quote

Questioner

What is the thing with Adolin's serial dating? Is it just...?

Brandon Sanderson

He is bad with relationships, and that's just it. He's a little bit scared of being good at relationships, and so there's some kind of unconscious sabotaging going on. But yeah, he's young and he's bad at relationships.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/13-calamity-austin-signing/#e4892

It is way too unspecific for me. I'm honest, "bad with relationships" can mean anything. I know people, that break up with their current partner and have a new one in a week. And I know people, that stay single for long stretches of time after a break up. The former would probably be considered to be "good at relationships" and the latter ones to be "bad at relationships". Funny thing is, that the latter ones probably could have a new relationship in a week, but don't want one. They are not even interested in one. This is what I've been reading, when I've been reading Adolin. He isn't interested in committing to those girls, that he dates (ie "scared of bein good at relationships"), but he has to date, because he is expected to. Both by his family and society (ie appearances). So, just being uninterested in a long-term relationship, like I think Adolin is, can mean being "bad at relationships".

So, yes, it all boils down to: Why is Adolin bad at romantic relationships, even if he has an almost perfect toolset for sustaining one? He doesn't want one.

59 minutes ago, PhineasGage said:

I agree with this. I would even argue that he deliberately annoys girls to get them to break things off for him. I don't know about you, but I've done this with 1 ex and it is very effective, although in my case it took far longer than I'd have liked!

Personally, I haven't, but I have heard of cases in my friendship circles. It is nothing that unusual.

Edited January 9, 2018 by SLNC

PhineasGage · January 9, 2018

23 minutes ago, SLNC said:

It is way too unspecific for me. I'm honest, "bad with relationships" can mean anything. I know people, that break up with their current partner and have a new one in a week. And I know people, that stay single for long stretches of time after a break up. The former would probably be considered to be "good at relationships" and the latter ones to be "bad at relationships". Funny thing is, that the latter ones probably could have a new relationship in a week, but don't want one. They are not even interested in one. This is what I've been reading, when I've been reading Adolin. He isn't interested in committing to those girls, that he dates (ie "scared of bein good at relationships"), but he has to date, because he is expected to. Both by his family and society (ie appearances). So, just being uninterested in a long-term relationship, like I think Adolin is, can mean being "bad at relationships".

True. It is difficult to get a specific reason for Adolin's "badness" at relationships. Given that I think we are meant to be able to infer pretty obvious motivations from Adolin most of the time (given other WoBs on Adolin). I personally think your premise is correct - he simply isn't ready for a long-term commitment yet but unluckily for him Alethi society doesn't really allow this. IRL people would see him as a bit of a player, but because he wouldn't be forced to commit before he was ready, he would probably be less self-sabotaging because he wouldn't be expected to propose until a great deal later in the relationship. Indeed, IRL he might have longer relationships and therefore not end up on an "epic level blind date" with Shallan because his relatives wouldn't have been so desperate for him to settle down.

There are other more subtle motivations that could be ascribed to Adolin, but I just don't think we are meant to go there with him. The obvious motivation (to me anyway) is just that he isn't ready. It isn't really lack of self-confidence so much as the fact that very few people in their early 20s are "confident" in relationships. This is one of the main reasons I am against Shadolin (at this time anyway). Granted I am firmly on SS Shalladin, but I feel that also isn't right at the moment - again they are both too young to commit. That said, Kaladin is capable of deep commitment to people in a way Adolin just doesn't seem to match - he is committed to Renarin and Dalinar but he doesn't commit and bond to others the way Kaladin does.

47 minutes ago, SLNC said:

Personally, I haven't, but I have heard of cases in my friendship circles. It is nothing that unusual

Yeah, in theory it means you don't have to feel guilty about dumping them, but in reality you have to put up with someone you aren't actually compatible with for much longer than if you just dropped them. I think Adolin would rather be seen as "having a different girl each week" even if it implies that he is a bit of a player/womanizer/useless at relationships than admit to society that he isn't actually ready to commit - especially as everyone round him seems to be looking to settle down (except Renarin of course).

Actually, on that note, is it possible that some of Adolin's reluctance to commit is related to him not wanting to make Renarin feel inadequate in comparison? I mean, he knows Renarin feels inadequate in other areas...? Just a thought.

Dreamstorm · January 9, 2018

This (awesome!) discussion has made me think more about Adolin's character flaws, including his inability to maintain relationships, and what we see reflected in OB. Before going on to the flaws which still exist, these are the flaws which I see as "solved" or no longer existing in OB:

Hot-headed/rash decisions: This flaw came out significantly in WoR, with both Adolin's imprecise challenge which lead to the 4v1 duel and his killing of Sadeas. As far as I see in OB, we see a very measured and thoughtful Adolin, so this seems to be an extinct character flaw. This makes sense; not only is this a flaw which can be related to immaturity, Adolin had life experiences which made him examine (and correct for) it. Particularly with the 4v1 duel, he beats himself up for his rashness so it would be natural that he learned from it. One learning moment I see is when early in WoR he flings himself up a building when fighting the Parshendi with Relis Ruthar (Relis mentions how crazy it was) at Narak we see Adolin take a thoughtful approach by cutting through the building; clear progression in his approach to battle tactics and being less rash.
Arrogance: Primarily related to dueling, and we have a WoB that Adolin isn't as good with the sword as he thinks he is. The lack of this in OB also makes sense as it is part of Adolin's arc to be questioning where he is in the new era of Radiants; he now doesn't have much reason to be arrogant, as there are characters who could end him despite his Shardbearer status and skill with the sword. But regardless, this no longer presented as a character flaw.
Superiority complex: I don't know how to "title" this, but whatever flaw led to him being unable to accept Kaladin's orders on the Tower battlefield and then hate Kaladin for that insubordination for half of WoR. This trait is also what I ascribe to his condescension of Skar and Drehy at the Battle of Narak before they prove their worth. (Note I don't want to call this racism against darkeyes, because Adolin's issues seem more connected to wanting people to stay in their place rather than a lighteye/darkeye dichotomy.) This also seems resolved by OB, but follows naturally from Adolin coming to appreciate Kaladin, Skar and Drehy (and in fact Kaladin thinks Adolin is now too friendly and equal with Skar and Drehy!) It helps that Adolin is now down the pecking order a bit due to his lack of Radiant status.

Onto the faults which I think are still present:

Lack of commitment to romantic relationships: Like many of you note, this isn't a "womanizer" per se, but Adolin is portrayed as not being committed to his romantic relationships; he tends to drive women off through lack of effort more than anything else. (There does seem to be some flirting as well, but he doesn't seem to do more than looking at other women - he's definitely not an aggressive pursuer or anything.) I obviously believe this is not over in OB, and partially because of how it would have to be presented to readers in order to make it clear it was over. As @Rainier notes, the first "flaw" of Adolin we see in WoK is his relationship issues with women - it's a large source of conversation among characters throughout WoK and WoR. It's part of the reason we get a causal with Shallan at all. Absent a magical disappearance of this flaw, the only consistent way we could explain its absence is a reliance on the trope that Shallan is The One (TM) who transformed the former player (credit @SLNC for pointing out that this trope isn't lambasted like the braided rose one.) (Note I use "player" loosely for "not committed to romantic relationships.") I see this reading a lot; Adolin is in love with Shallan, and so we're supposed to infer this is why his relationship issues go away - he was just never in love before. But the successful execution of this trope by an author depends on Adolin's feelings; indeed his feelings are really the only ones which matter for this trope to work; it's not the romantic interest's perception (i.e. Shallan's PoV) of the player's feelings which matter in the trope, but how the player feels so strongly for the romantic interest that he/she no longer has the issues which caused the player behavior in the first place. I don't think this trope can be considered executed without seeing these feelings strongly from Adolin's PoV.
Emotional insensitivity with women: The WoB below this section started my thinking about how Adolin reacts to Shallan when she's in emotional distress. We see his tone-deaf reactions multiple times - when she's in distress at the idea of learning the sword and creates Radiant, when she finds out Kaladin killed Heleran, when she comes back from her breakdown as Veil and he just comments on her "nice outfit." I would argue that the Honor's Path conversation is a bit tone-deaf too (see next section for my thoughts on that), though I know others see that as a good moment. Overall, we see at least three times where Shallan has intense emotional reactions that he doesn't pick up on. This seems to echo what went on earlier with women; for instance it doesn't seem to register with Janala that she's upset and bored when he drags her along to the strap investigation. At the very least, it shows he's not good at reading Shallan.

The following are things which I'm not sure if we are supposed to see as faults or good things, but I think we have an argument they are faults:

Abdication of duty: Someone mentioned above (sorry for not remembering who!) that when Adolin talks to Azure on the Reachers ship, his sense of duty and serving his family is very strong; he will be king if they need him to be. Later of course, he uses the Sadeas murder to get out of this. This is something we see with Adolin from the beginning - he talks about wanting an easy life of dueling and pleasure ("He'd happily spend his entire life dueling, lounging, and courting the occasional pretty girl." WoK, Ch. 12, Unity) although he knows this isn't the path he should take, and until this moment, we see him prioritizing duty over this desire for an easy life. Again, I don't know if this is seen as "good" since Azure encourages it, or if this is "bad" since living up the one's responsibilities is a big theme in the book.
Lack of remorse for killing Sadeas: This one we've talked to death; is the fact Adolin ends up happy he killed Sadeas a good thing or not? On the good side, in-world it's mostly considered good and there is a WoB which says Jasnah killing the thugs in Kharbranth is worse. On the flip side, a consistent theme is that killing, regardless the circumstances, is something which causes personal consequences for the character. Also an open question.

This interesting thing with all of these character flaws (accepting the latter two as faults) is that what we have left are flaws which either show Shallan's flawed read of Adolin or which we see her exacerbate. She thinks Adolin is in love with her whereas he is not. She thinks Adolin understands her whereas we see multiple time he cannot read her and reacts in an emotionally insensitive manner. She encourages him to not become king. She is happy he killed Sadeas and supports his lack of remorse. It seems like all of Adolin's potential ways to grow through character failings relate to Shallan or things Shallan has encouraged in him. The other possibility is the reemergence of flaws which were present earlier but weren't in OB; the obvious one is the brash/hot headed behavior coming out against his father when he finds out Dalinar caused Evi's death. (The one thing I don't like about that as much - not that I don't think it will happen - but like with the Sadeas killing, readers actually want Adolin to be mad at Dalinar, so even if it's an "angry" reaction, it still will not be a character flaw which will cause readers to be disappointed in Adolin. I think to really connect with a character you need to see them fail and make choices you as a reader find bad so the high moments have more emotional impact.) Thoughts? Am I missing faults (especially ones in OB) on these lists?

Quote

Questioner

I notice Adolin has a talent for picking out when people are lying. At least he caught Sadeas, he caught Amaram, he knew Kaladin was having something, but he missed Danlan.

Brandon Sanderson

How reliable is Adolin with his read on people? Better with guys.

Everyone

*laughter*

Brandon Sanderson

Look at the list you just gave me.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/90-barnes-noble-b-fest-2016/#e4662

******

As mentioned above, my reread of Shallan's conversation in Shademar with Kaladin and Adolin caused me to have a few reactions. First, Shallan actually tries to tell Kaladin about her split personas first - she actually seems eager to divulge this to someone (to Kaladin first and then later to Adolin) - but Kaladin brushed past her comment about how "pretending fragments me" to talk about himself. Second, both these boys are so self-focused and kind of suck. Kaladin is both worse (because he idolizes clearly unhealthy behavior) and better (because at least the conversation started off about him and he just failed to pick up on the disturbing things Shallan says) than Adolin who turns a conversation which is about Shallan into a conversation where he can unload about killing Sadeas. I know this is personal preference, but I find it irritating when person A confides something to person B, and person B makes their reactions all about person B instead of person A. Note that Shallan has to lead him back to her original issue (which personality to prefer.) But that brings me to third, Shallan's opening question of "which one do you like the most?" is profoundly disturbing to me. We see after Thaylen City she chooses the personality Adolin selects, but for some reason I hadn't put it together that she'd blatantly asked him to select what he considers the "best" her previously; she is showing here she wants to be whomever Adolin wants her to be. Fourth, when Adolin says he wants the real her and likes "what's inside", we know he doesn't have any clue "what's inside", since Shallan has been hiding that from him (as she says in Kholinar how she covers up that side for him.) Fifth, I'm not sure what to make of the "So warm. Comfortable. And strikingly unfamiliar." comment from Shallan at the end of this. These are good feelings, right? I see them as good. But I see them following a conversation which is a bit disturbing - asking your significant other to choose the best you to be and then having him say he likes what's inside when you know you've hidden what is really inside. The only way I can reconcile my impression of the conversation is that this is opposite of what Wit told Shallan she needed to face - that is was "alright to hurt" and to "accept the pain" - which she is not doing by instead relying on Adolin to make her feel warm and comfortable instead of facing what is inside her. (The obvious flip side is that this conversation shows how Adolin loves the real Shallan and this makes her feel safe and loved.) Anyways, any other thoughts appreciated.

******

16 hours ago, PhineasGage said:

I'm afraid I can't get on board Kadolin as a ship - but only from Kaladin's side - I could see Adolin going down that route, but not Kaladin - his thoughts about Adolin don't strike me that way at all. He is much more physically aware of Shallan all the time. I could probably get on board Kalarin more because Kal and Renarin to me work better - although I don't like the idea of Renarin viewing Kaladin as his (military) superior and also being involved romantically. I would also feel this way about any other person who was subordinate to Kaladin because of the problems of abuse of power and related issues.

For the sake of argument, let's assume all three guys are interested in romantic relationships with men and Renarin is not Kaladin's subordinate. Why do you like Kalarin better than Kadolin? (Side note related to this; I don't think I've read a Brandon male character's attraction which reads more sexually than Kaladin's for Shallan. Even if he doesn't "love" her, it's pretty clear he would jump at the chance to sleep with her (putting aside in-world social conventions which would stop him from actually doing so.) The only one which comes close is Dalinar's hots for Navani.)

*****

This is totally unrelated to the above, but it's about Kaladin, so I guess I can fit it here... Kaladin's "future sight" at the lighthouse in Shadesmar. We are told by WoB and in-world (by Hoid and others) that future sight is a negative thing. I think we can say that Kaladin in his dip into the spiritual realm had future sight of Dalinar as Odium's champion. So was this negative? (One of the things that made me think of this was on Honor's Path when Kaladin is brainstorming with Shallan about how to get to Thalyen City, she notes his sense of "motion" (in italics) which reminded me of all of the "momentum" references. That's of the Thrill - which isn't Kal's issue - but I thought it was an interesting observation by Shallan.) If this was negative, what were the consequences of Kaladin's future sight? What I could think of was that if the Shadesmar group had shown up in Thaylen City and Dalinar, as was expected, became Odium's champion, that group could have been killed. But how would they even have passed into the Physical Realm... I'm a bit confused about how we're supposed to read this given future sight = bad yet Kaladin's future sight = getting our crew where they needed to be and ended up being good. Thoughts?

Wow, this was long! This is apparently what I spew out after not posting much for a couple days....

January 9, 2018

17 minutes ago, Dreamstorm said:

First, Shallan actually tries to tell Kaladin about her split personas first - she actually seems eager to divulge this to someone (to Kaladin first and then later to Adolin) - but Kaladin brushed past her comment about how "pretending fragments me" to talk about himself.

Just a quick comment, that went through my head, while reading this:

I find it unfair. Why is Kaladin expected to pick that out from that comment, while Adolin gets it presented on a silver platter.

I do agree about the selfishness of both Kaladin and Adolin though. Kinda sucks.

Edited January 9, 2018 by SLNC

Dreamstorm · January 9, 2018

4 minutes ago, SLNC said:

I find it unfair. Why is Kaladin expected to pick that out from that comment, while Adolin gets it presented on a silver platter.

Well, the Kaladin convo is set up to be one Shallan can refer back to as Kaladin encouraging her to not be herself. It's a pretty classic Misunderstanding (also tm), since she doesn't actually tell him what's going on so his response is without understanding the actual context. More important to me is that she actually wants to tell Kaladin first and that Adolin's response (even with the silver platter presentation) is factually false - he doesn't know what's inside Shallan.

[OB] Adolin-Shallan-Kaladin Discussion

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