[OB] Adolin-Shallan-Kaladin Discussion

[Greywatch]

Shallan is not a sociopath for killing her parents. She was an abused child who didn't have options. That's the long and short of it, and the continued claim that Adolin would react negatively to it just because "it's a normal response" has no bearing on the reality of life is more varied than that. Even here in real life, there is not only one response to hearing the news. Freaking out on Shallan is not a response that everyone would have and definitely not Adolin's. Shallan, knowing her, might start off with "I killed my parents", Adolin, who loves her, cares about her, and at this point has a good grasp on her character, would probably not lose it on her, and upon finding out the circumstances of her abusive childhood, would be sympathetic, because he's a sympathetic person.

A "normal, sane" person would ask their loved ones for background, the details, the why of it, and putting the extremely bland "nice guy" Adolin label on him ignores his actual canon characterization as kind, grounded, and sympathetic. "Nice guy" Adolin sure applies to the latter character traits, but those traits are somehow nowhere to be seen here.

[Isilel]

28 minutes ago, SLNC said:

Could certainly be, but I think her character arc will more involve her accepting that truth for herself, which is something she isn't doing right now. I think, it will be more internal than external.

What makes this truth so difficult to accept, beyond the act itself, are the terrible reprecussions it had for the other members of Shallan's family. As such, I don't think that it is something that can be resolved purely internally. Confessing what happened to her brothers, who have born the brunt of said reprecussions and were broken and twisted by them, has to be the necessary part of the process. And to Adolin, who is her new family and will have to deal with the consequences too, knowlingly or not.

I am not happy that she didn't do the latter before the marriage, to be honest, but I understand how hard it is for her. Which is why I also think that Dalinar's revelations about what he did to Evi will help Shallan deal with her own family skeletons.

[Guest]

29 minutes ago, Greywatch said:

 putting the extremely bland "nice guy" Adolin label on him ignores his actual canon characterization as kind, grounded, and sympathetic

Well... that is kinda the definition of a "nice guy" character, so I don't see how it ignores his characterization, when you call him a nice guy, but bland? That is literally what he is.

[Greywatch]

2 minutes ago, SLNC said:

Well... that is kinda the definition of a "nice guy" character, so I don't see how it ignores his characterization, when you call him a nice guy, but bland? That is literally what he is.

I never say bland - I said bland was what was being put on him, here in this thread. Somehow the traits of a good guy that I read in the books - kind, sympathetic, grounded - were not being taken into account in any of these scenarios. Thanks for the opportunity to clarify.

[Dreamstorm]

32 minutes ago, Greywatch said:

Freaking out on Shallan is not a response that everyone would have and definitely not Adolin's. Shallan, knowing her, might start off with "I killed my parents", Adolin, who loves her, cares about her, and at this point has a good grasp on her character, would probably not lose it on her, and upon finding out the circumstances of her abusive childhood, would be sympathetic, because he's a sympathetic person.

I think this is a divisive topic because we don’t have a good analogy from which to gauge Adolin’s reaction; he isn’t aware of any of the “bad” actions Shallan has done - matricide, patricide, stealing from Jasnah, killing Tyn. Her confessing her multiple personalities isn’t in the same catagory. Killing another human and stealing are considered “bad” in normalized human society absent mitigating circumstances. (Sadeas is a good example; although killing someone is bad, it’s considered OK because of the mitigating circumstances of the fact Sadeas did a bunch of terrible things and threatened to do more. But everyone who is saying killing Sadeas is OK would still say baseline killing someone is wrong.)

How you think Adolin will react is tied to how you see him and also how you want him to be; for others it is the same process though they come to the opposite conclusion. But you have to realize that insisting Adolin will react in a perfect manner is playing into the hands of those who think his character is one which reacts perfectly in any situation, and is thus a Mary Sue, as you are arguing there is no way for him to react except in this perfect sympathetic manner. This is perhaps the crux of the matter; you like the idealized Adolin characterization and want it to continue whereas others would like Adolin to show some faults and react to some situations without the utmost immediate understanding and sympathy. Some people would like this to be an opportunity for Adolin to not be perfect; you want it to be another situation where Adolin is perfect. 

[Guest]

This is basically it, @Dreamstorm.

Adolin is basically a "Yes" man. And man, am I one too. I just can't say no. Boss comes to me and asks me to do a certain task, if I can, but I actually have a nearly full to-do list and rather would not. I still say yes. People wrong me.. Well, storms, I tell myself, probably was just a mistake. And I take on everything. Someone has a problem and needs someone to listen? Man, I'm there for you. And another thing. And it goes on and on. (It was much worse in my teens, it got better.) Basically a helpless helper syndrome.

But this goes only so far. Sometime you'll have enough and you'll explode, literally, most of the time you regret it afterwards, but it happens. There will be that one thing, that is the final straw.

If that doesn't happen to Adolin he is the Mary Sue, that we are all hoping he isn't. (Except, that @maxal already seems to have lost hope and given her past investment into Adolin, I can understand.)

Edited January 6, 2018 by SLNC

[Greywatch]

Mary Sue is a garbage term. Continued insistence that Adolin is one (and insisting that it's unreasonable) because he has traits that predispose him to great emotional intelligence, kindness, compassion, and stability... Traits that have been built into his character for three books in a row without fail... That's called consistency.

On the other hand, ignoring those traits when building a scenario about how Adolin would react to something is flawed reading.

If we want to talk about something that I think Adolin actually would lose it about it would be him finding out the truth about Evi's death. Shallan being abused as a child and taking the steps to defend herself and her brothers? Not in the same class.

[Kogiopsis]

10 hours ago, insert_anagram_here said:

Well if it is a matter of personal taste, I deeply dislike the idea that the proper Veden please-help-me persona Shallan is the 'real' one. I dislike the part of her that decided she is bad at choosing a partner for herself because she blames herself for liking Kabsal. I hate that she she was okay with letting Jasnah conveniently betroth her to what she knew then as 'a prince' and I was just as surprised as Jasnah. Veil would never allow that. Veil is the courageous one that works undercover and places herself in ways of harm to achieve her goal, that one that looks out for the dark-eyes, the compassionate for the weaker ones.

While I acknowledge that my dislike is in part personal, the issue of Shallan pretending to be a darkeyes despite fundamentally not understanding what that means is deeper than that.  In modern American society it's the equivalent of brown/blackface, or the Rachel Dolezal mess - she's writing over the privilege she comes from and the harm she and people like her have done, and in the process she is causing more harm.  (I mention again that the breakdown of Veil started because Shallan - any and all parts of her - failed to comprehend the realities of poverty, because she had never experienced it and only tried it on like a costume.  This seems like it might be the beginning of her realizing that Alethi society is, y'know, fundamentally messed up, but she's certainly not given the issue much thought yet.)

As for the betrothal - I think you're forgetting the fact that at the time Jasnah arranged the causal, Shallan's primary focus was still finding a way to secure House Davar.  A betrothal to a prince, even one she had no guarantees she would even get along with, is a logical strategic option to hold on to.  And because the causal is conditional, it's not a certainty; until she meets Adolin, it's just another card in her hand.

10 hours ago, SLNC said:

This has nothing to do with intelligence, but with how we've been told he perceives Shallan's different personalities.

Okay he might not ask her that question, but I still think, that he will think, that Veil is different from Shallan and so Shallan was not the one conferring with the Ghostbloods, which is just not true and Shallan telling him over Veil is not only dishonest, but also further allows Shallan to once again hide behind her personas. To not take responsibility.

And please, I'm getting really discouraged by your tone. It is okay to disagree with me and to tell me why, but you're getting way too angry about this.

Regarding the comparability of killing Sadeas and Shallan killing her parents:

I haven't even argued against that. I know it is comparable and I have full sympathy on why Shallan did that, but only because I have seen her past through flashback sequences.

Adolin does not have that ability. All I'm trying is to gauge a possible emotional reaction of a man, whose wife is constantly hiding things from him and apparently is multiple people at once, a man, of whom we know values family over everything, which could hamper his ability to understand the reason Shallan did what she did, because he only knew having a loving mother and a reasonably loving dad, whose worst crime was neglecting his teenage sons, because he was an alcoholic (I know dalinar did a lot worse things, but Adolin doesn't, which is what is important here.). I'm saying, that through his own background, he'd have trouble to fathom, that what Shallan tells him is true, because his own beliefs on family are completely different.

Another thing is, that he is also often described as being hotheaded. Shallan has good reasons to do what she did, but will he even want to hear these reasons? Or will he get emotional, when she tells him?

I mean, the question you posited is a phenomenally stupid thing for him to ask, given that we know he can tell the difference in Shallan's personas even when she's not Lightweaving their appearances, so yeah, I think it absolutely has to do with intelligence.

And speaking of which... the idea that Adolin doesn't have the ability to sympathize with Shallan is, frankly, absurd.  Everyone putting this argument forward has been conveniently ignoring the fact that, in canon, Adolin is far and away the most emotionally intelligent person in the cast.  (Y'all wanna talk about a Kholin who would be more likely to ignore context?  Jasnah.  Jasnah 'I killed three men because they might have been about to attack me' Kholin is the one I'd bet on reacting poorly.)

Adolin doesn't have any reason to disbelieve Shallan.  He's not clueless; he knows that other people have different life experiences than his.  He may not fully compass the difference between, say, Kaladin's choice in the arena and his own, but notably - even though Kaladin destroyed his chance to duel Sadeas - Adolin is the one who stands by him.  Is locking himself in prison a bit of a silly gesture?  Yeah.  Is it still meaningful?  Yes.

The assumption that Adolin would 'have trouble fathoming' what Shallan went through only makes sense if you assume that he's oblivious enough to disavow even the possibility of familial abuse.  It doesn't have anything to do with his beliefs on family, except maybe for the fact that what Lin and Shallan's mother did to their children violates everything Adolin seems to believe about those relationships.

8 hours ago, Vissy said:

I think you're being unrealistic. Unless Adolin really is the Mary Sue I fear he's become, then he's going to freak out just like any sane person would. Shallan is going to have to explain it with the utmost care to him, well, or it's going to become exponentially harder to explain. Would you, or anyone you know, react with utmost calm to hearing that your loved one shot their parents, accidentally or not, to use your gun death analogy? Yes, you might eventually react with sympathy, but your initial reaction is going to be horrified. You could benefit from some reading comprehension, as you've been arguing against a point I never made - apparently you thought that I'd said something to the effect that Shallan actually is a monster for murdering her parents. Nothing could be further from the truth. 

(That being said, think for a moment on what Shallan did. At an extremely young age, she planned and executed two murders - something most people would not do under any circumstances, no matter how abusive the parent, or as coldly as Shallan did. She might well be on the sociopathic spectrum herself, on top of being a child genius. Not that I think that makes her a horrible person, as I think she's shown ample evidence of being quite a great person when it counts; it's just something interesting to note.)

Oh, and to this, I do have something to note. Brandon has to a certain degree "Flanderized" Adolin himself, for example specifically his fashion obsession when he wrote Adolin's only activities in Kholinar amounting to a game of dress-up. Instead of doing something... interesting. He dropped the ball on the Sadeas murder plotline entirely, which was going to be an integral part of Adolin's character arc... or so it initially seemed, before the beta-reader-suggested Adolin PoVs in the beginning of OB ran dry and Veil took over the investigation. Like it or not, Brandon has kind of bastardized Adolin himself, making him into a Prince Perfect who can hardly do any wrong and to whom everything just kind of falls into his lap. So maybe it's not such a wonder when people start exaggerating him.

If I heard a loved one shot their parents accidentally, no, I wouldn't be calm.  As I said, I'd be horrified that a child was in that situation.  I'm not suggesting that Adolin will be impassive and unemotional - I'm suggesting that he won't instantly condemn Shallan without hearing her side of the story.  To borrow your phrase, that's what any sane person would do.  Personally, I'd be more horrified to learn about what her mother and Lin did.

Nothing about her mother's death was cold, nor was it planned.  Shroom has addressed this.

Also, oh my goodness, Adolin's playing the fop in Kholinar was his role in the information-gathering process.  His job as part of the team was to infiltrate the Kholinar nobility and learn about the Heart of the Revel so that they could gain access.  He wasn't goofing off; he just wasn't center-stage because that wasn't where he could best contribute.

7 hours ago, Vissy said:

Killing is not a natural outgrowth. Even in self-defense, it's not something a child does. It's not something a lot of people would even be capable of doing. Most children in her position would have whimpered and died. Shallan didn't. It doesn't make her a horrible person, but it also says something about her. She is most definitely willing to kill, even her own parents, if she feels it's necessary - contrast this to Kaladin, for example. He could never do something like that. I'd definitely call it sociopathic behaviour on Shallan's part, though that's where the sociopath comparisons end. She's not one.

'Most children' aren't soul-bonded to a magical weapon that takes life almost effortlessly, especially at an age where they're far too young to understand it.  I also fundamentally disagree that 'most children would have whimpered and died'; the human survival instinct is much stronger than that, and it is manifest in kids too.  Unless you have a psychological study to back up your theory, I'm going to remain extremely skeptical that fighting back wouldn't be a natural response.  Shallan just happened to be unnaturally well-armed to defend herself.  And again, she didn't need to have the intent to kill - only to harm, which could have simply been a prelude to running away.  The Patternblade makes the line between harm and death difficult to walk.

1 hour ago, Dreamstorm said:

I think this is a divisive topic because we don’t have a good analogy from which to gauge Adolin’s reaction; he isn’t aware of any of the “bad” actions Shallan has done - matricide, patricide, stealing from Jasnah, killing Tyn. Her confessing her multiple personalities isn’t in the same catagory. Killing another human and stealing are considered “bad” in normalized human society absent mitigating circumstances. (Sadeas is a good example; although killing someone is bad, it’s considered OK because of the mitigating circumstances of the fact Sadeas did a bunch of terrible things and threatened to do more. But everyone who is saying killing Sadeas is OK would still say baseline killing someone is wrong.)

How you think Adolin will react is tied to how you see him and also how you want him to be; for others it is the same process though they come to the opposite conclusion. But you have to realize that insisting Adolin will react in a perfect manner is playing into the hands of those who think his character is one which reacts perfectly in any situation, and is thus a Mary Sue, as you are arguing there is no way for him to react except in this perfect sympathetic manner. This is perhaps the crux of the matter; you like the idealized Adolin characterization and want it to continue whereas others would like Adolin to show some faults and react to some situations without the utmost immediate understanding and sympathy. Some people would like this to be an opportunity for Adolin to not be perfect; you want it to be another situation where Adolin is perfect. 

Okay, but no one is saying Adolin does react perfectly in any situation.  What we're saying is that there is zero reason to believe he would be unsympathetic to Shallan.  All three of the lives she's taken do have 'mitigating circumstances':  abuse or attempted murder and, in Tyn's case, as far as Shallan knew the actual completed murder of Jasnah.  The only one that's less defensible is the plot to steal Jasnah's soulcaster, for which Shallan feels regret and shame; for that matter, she also self-castigates for her parents' deaths.

As Grey said, Adolin's compassion and stability are consistent traits.  I have no problems with him being 'imperfect', but violating that characterization isn't revealing a flaw, it's retconning.  This is Evi's son we're talking about, who loves hugs even though physical affection is frowned upon, who steps in to help a darkeyed prostitute the first time Kaladin sees him, who is a consummate soldier and commander even if, in Dalinar's opinion, he's 'a little too friendly' with the men under his command.

You give him too little credit.

Edited January 6, 2018 by Kogiopsis

[maxal]

1 hour ago, Greywatch said:

A "normal, sane" person would ask their loved ones for background, the details, the why of it, and putting the extremely bland "nice guy" Adolin label on him ignores his actual canon characterization as kind, grounded, and sympathetic. "Nice guy" Adolin sure applies to the latter character traits, but those traits are somehow nowhere to be seen here.

The reason I have personally used the term "bland" to describe Adolin is because his character has not been allowed to develop any layers nor any depth within the on-going story. He is basically a character having been put through hardships, through interesting events, but whom never wastes moments of his life wondering about what they mean or so little of them. He is basically "fine" with everything life throws at him. He always reacts in a "perfect" manner in the sense those events never shatter his confidence long enough to have an impact on either his decision-making or his ability to maintain his load of responsibilities. He never falters, he never hesitates and even on the day he is seen doing "a mistake", he reacts within the absolutely perfect manner which yields the optimum result.

This doesn't prevent him from being a nice, sympathetic guy, but in terms of story telling, it makes him horribly bland. He is basically stuck into a status quo story arc where he does exactly what he is supposed to do at the time where it is the most convenient. Sure, the world is filled with people just like him, but we don't write stories about them because they aren't interesting enough.

What some of us have wanted was those layers we perceived, back in WoR, to be further explored, we wanted for Adolin to have an edge and to walk away from the predestined path he has been on. Why? Because I personally feel it would have been a very interesting arc to have within SA. Instead, we have "comical-relief" Adolin having no other purpose within the story but to be the loyal side-kick, the kind which never envies the heroes powers, or the steady leader in case he is needed. 

Other may disagree, but I don't find this extraordinarily interesting to read, especially not considering the latest developments with both Shallan and Maya. Are we going to read Adolin revive Maya out of pure goodness of heart as some readers are suggesting elsewhere?

55 minutes ago, Dreamstorm said:

 Some people would like this to be an opportunity for Adolin to not be perfect; you want it to be another situation where Adolin is perfect. 

Yes, this summarizes how I think as I don't believe in perfection: I don't believe in a perfect character. Everyone has layers, a threshold and nobody is perfect. Keeping on writing Adolin as if he were, by giving him the perfect reactions to all events, will IMHO further harm the character.

My issues is I no longer believe it is within Brandon's plan to give Adolin layers: not because he is a bad writer, but because he merely doesn't want to focus on his character.

50 minutes ago, SLNC said:

This is basically it, @Dreamstorm.

Adolin is basically a "Yes" man. And man, am I one too. I just can't say no. Boss comes to me and asks me to do a certain task, if I can, but I actually have a nearly full to-do list and rather would not. I still say yes. People wrong me.. Well, storms, I tell myself, probably was just a mistake. And I take on everything. Someone has a problem and needs someone to listen? Man, I'm there for you. And another thing. And it goes on and on. (It was much worse in my teens, it got better.) Basically a helpless helper syndrome.

But this goes only so far. Sometime you'll have enough and you'll explode, literally, most of the time you regret it afterwards, but it happens. There will be that one thing, that is the final straw.

If that doesn't happen to Adolin he is the Mary Sue, that we are all hoping he isn't. (Except, that @maxal already seems to have lost hope and given her past investment into Adolin, I can understand.)

Nobody's perfect at all time and yeah, the dreaded Mary Sue terms, which may be garbage and a tad far-fetched, could apply here. Or it may be more apt to say some readers will read the character this way as some readers will never find a character reacting to all events in a perfect manner interesting.

Sure, Adolin is not perfect-perfect: he did yell at Amaram, but those imperfection never yield onto character growth nor a valid story arc. They are just quirks the author gave Adolin, here and there, but they never make up for anything more solid than a handful of one-liner scenes.

And yeah, I've given hope because my perspective is if Brandon didn't see fit to write what I personally consider would have been a "better Adolin" within OB, after the ending he gave him in WoR, than why should I believe he'll pick the ball up for book 4? Why would he? Because there is one thread where people are speaking of those things? Seriously? Brandon is not reading the 17th Shard and even if he were, why should he give this thread more importance to the other, apparently numerous, readers whom absolutely loved bland Adolin in OB? Just today a reader wrote a review of OB, on Reddit, praising how amazing it was Adolin had NO reaction within Part 3 to be the powerless one.... I tend to think the fact this was never on his mind, even if his conclusions may be the same, was odd and not too realistic, so whom should Brandon listen to? 

If someone asks me to wager, I'll wager the author will just write the story as he planned it and, within this plan, Adolin has no layers, not because the characters can't have them, but because this just isn't something Brandon wants to focus on. He finds his other characters more interesting: either that or he just disagrees on Adolin. He just meant for him to be exactly as he is written: sympathetic, nice, perfect and... a tad bland.

41 minutes ago, Greywatch said:

Mary Sue is a garbage term. Continued insistence that Adolin is one (and insisting that it's unreasonable) because he has traits that predispose him to great emotional intelligence, kindness, compassion, and stability... Traits that have been built into his character for three books in a row without fail... That's called consistency.

On the other hand, ignoring those traits when building a scenario about how Adolin would react to something is flawed reading.

If we want to talk about something that I think Adolin actually would lose it about it would be him finding out the truth about Evi's death. Shallan being abused as a child and taking the steps to defend herself and her brothers? Not in the same class.

I tend to agree with the last sentence: I doubt Adolin would react badly to Shallan, even if it would be interesting if he would, but I will shove my book onto my wall if he is not made to react to Evi. Arguably, he probably won't. Because. His character is written as one whom never second guesses his father and is ready to forgive him anything.

[Greywatch]

20 minutes ago, maxal said:

This doesn't prevent him from being a nice, sympathetic guy, but in terms of story telling, it makes him horribly bland. He is basically stuck into a status quo story arc where he does exactly what he is supposed to do at the time where it is the most convenient. Sure, the world is filled with people just like him, but we don't write stories about them because they aren't interesting enough.

If someone asks me to wager, I'll wager the author will just write the story as he planned it and, within this plan, Adolin has no layers, not because the characters can't have them, but because this just isn't something Brandon wants to focus on. He finds his other characters more interesting: either that or he just disagrees on Adolin. He just meant for him to be exactly as he is written: sympathetic, nice, perfect and... a tad bland.

Yup, this is exactly it - it's subjective, and I find him interesting as is. Not everyone who likes Adolin wants him to have an edge or becoming grimdark to be interesting. Sometimes a character can just be a good person. Whether or not a reader finds him bland is purely taste. You apparently do - I don't.

20 minutes ago, maxal said:

I tend to agree with the last sentence: I doubt Adolin would react badly to Shallan, even if it would be interesting if he would, but I will shove my book onto my wall if he is not made to react to Evi. Arguably, he probably won't. Because. His character is written as one whom never second guesses his father and is ready to forgive him anything.

On the contrary, his character arc in the very first book was him doubting his father... a lot. It's pretty much the raison d'être of his character when we start the series. He frequently second-guesses Dalinar and brings up his doubts about Dalinar's motives and methods. Even after this character arc resolves after WoK, he definitely still disagrees with his father, even though he's now more willing to go along with him even though he might think another way might do better.

In OB, we find out the extent to which Evi raised the boys and what impact she had on how Adolin and Renarin turned out. The reason Adolin thinks what Dalinar did at the Rift is was justified is because he was told that the Rifters killed Evi. Do I think he's going to completely turn on Dalinar if/when he finds out the truth? No, not completely. But it undermines Adolin's established character and Evi's to suggest that he'll be just fine to find out his father essentially murdered his mother, and not the Rifters. 

[Chaos]

Tone down the rhetoric and chill guys. 

[wotbibliophile]

@Isilel I agree that Dalinar is super optimistic about Sadeas because he is missing memories. I have been thinking of the Thrill (and Odium's influence) as being like being under the influence of drugs. It is a little different in that Odium has a malevolent bent. When you end up doing something you would not have done without his influence it is always a really horrible thing. I think you and @Greywatch are right that people choose to fall under his influence, but for some reason I think there are people who choose consciously (which should be condemned) and people who choose unconsciously. If they are choosing unconsciously, I feel like they are being used and are more likely to regret their actions under the influence. Did anyone get the idea that people can fall unconsciously?

 

4 hours ago, Isilel said:

What makes this truth so difficult to accept, beyond the act itself, are the terrible reprecussions it had for the other members of Shallan's family. As such, I don't think that it is something that can be resolved purely internally. Confessing what happened to her brothers, who have born the brunt of said reprecussions and were broken and twisted by them, has to be the necessary part of the process. And to Adolin, who is her new family and will have to deal with the consequences too, knowlingly or not.

I am not happy that she didn't do the latter before the marriage, to be honest, but I understand how hard it is for her. Which is why I also think that Dalinar's revelations about what he did to Evi will help Shallan deal with her own family skeletons.

I agree with your first paragraph. I also wish Shallan had discussed any of her many secrets with Adolin before marrying him. She has a built in excuse to not talk to Adolin about anything whenever she does not want to i.e. she got Adolin to agree secrets were good. While Adolin says this, in practice, I do not think he believes it. The first chance he gets he tells Shallan his one and only secret (that he killed Sadeas). Shallan does not return the favor. She does not reveal any of her secrets. Examples, Ghostbloods (supposedly she'll tell him after they are married. Why? Why after?), Grund, stealing Jasnah's soulcaster, Tyn, killing her parents, her abusive childhood.

I'll focus on Grund (I think I've already made clear I think it was manipulation that made Shallan keep her childhood a secret. She's not willing to risk that Adolin will stop wanting her if she tells him.) So Shallan had two golden opportunities to tell Adolin about Grund. The first is when she comes back from her night out. She had a complete breakdown, but when she gets back, Adolin "Mr. He Knows Me" Kholin thinks she is fine. This is typical. Shallan is a great liar. That she appears to be fine is a lie that Adolin swallows whole.

I think it was @Greywatch who thought it was a positive that Shallan considers masking herself but always chooses not to. While I think it can be taken as a positive, I do not take it that way. I think Shallan has just enough common sense to realize she could not maintain a lightweaving permanently with Adolin. Lightweavings break on contact. And Shallan the cheerful scholar is a mask. One she has had since around 6 months after killing her mother. Before that she was mute and stared at walls. She creates a version of herself to please her father and brothers that masks how broken she still is. This is what Adolin believes is the real her.

Back to Grund. She returns from her night out and Adolin thinks she is fine. She does not take the opportunity to correct him. She doesn't hint at what a horrible place she is in. She hides. Shallan's second golden opportunity to talk about Grund is I think her better option. Perhaps she was too raw to talk about Grund within hours of his death. I can believe that. This is when she and Adolin have their conversation on Honor's Path. She says Veil is broken right now aaaaand stop. Why stop there? This is her perfect time to reveal that she tried to help a boy and he died. He probably would have lived if she had never interfered. She doesn't tell Adolin this. Whereas Adolin reveals his one and only secret. And after he reveals his secret Shallan still doesn't tell him about Grund or any of her secrets. She keeps her secrets and she is comforted by Adolin. It is a win-win in Shallan's mind.

 

On 1/5/2018 at 0:09 AM, Kogiopsis said:

When everything goes horribly wrong in Kholinar, though, Shallan is forced to face the consequences of her action; she is quite literally confronted with the responsibility she bears for the harm she has caused.  This is when her fractured personalities start to break down.  When she can no longer hide in repressed memories or alternate selves, the only choice left to her is to bear what she's done and carry on.  And if that sounds familiar, that's because it's an echo of Dalinar's arc: the solution lies not in forgetting or ignoring, but in acknowledging and striving to be better.  The Shallan we see in Parts 4 and 5 is starting to take her first shaky steps down that path.

 

I just do not see Shallan giving up her personalities. I also see her continuing to repress her memories. She says to Kaladin that it is getting harder but she can still do it. OB ends with Shallan, Veil, and Radiant. They are still there and Shallan is still relying on them. She casually mentions Veil and Adolin hanging out. Veil pretends she and Shallan have separate childhoods. So she doesn't have to acknowledge that she killed her mother. As for Lifts comment that Shallan was hugging herself, I cannot agree that this means Shallan loves herself. I thought it was a joke. Veil, Radiant, and Shallan are in a ring and holding hands and their faces are flickering between all three. I thought this was because only whole Shallan could do that complex lightweaving at the end of OB. It took all three of them working together because all three make a whole Shallan.

[Greywatch]

1 minute ago, wotbibliophile said:

I think it was @Greywatch who thought it was a positive that Shallan considers masking herself but always chooses not to. While I think it can be taken as a positive, I do not take it that way. I think Shallan has just enough common sense to realize she could not maintain a lightweaving permanently with Adolin. Lightweavings break on contact. And Shallan the cheerful scholar is a mask. One she has had since around 6 months after killing her mother. Before that she was mute and stared at walls. She creates a version of herself to please her father and brothers that masks how broken she still is. This is what Adolin believes is the real her.

One, that is not a thought she has about why she doesn't try it with Adolin, even though we can recognize it as true. Wasn't part of her thought process. Two, "cheerful scholar" is one interpretation of core Shallan, and it takes a lot of assumptions to say that she's putting on a false face when the text divides her only between her, and the two alters. The mask!Shallan theory takes a lot of suppositions, and I fundamentally disagree with almost all of them. There's not enough text or subtext to support the conclusion that Shallan has anything in between core personality and alter. There were no alters before OB, and before that, it's not a dissociative identity matter - it's a normal reaction to trauma and self-hatred. Everyone wants to put their best face forward, and Shallan does this with Adolin... at first. Then she slowly stops doing even that.

Quote

I just do not see Shallan giving up her personalities. I also see her continuing to repress her memories. She says to Kaladin that it is getting harder but she can still do it. OB ends with Shallan, Veil, and Radiant. They are still there and Shallan is still relying on them. She casually mentions Veil and Adolin hanging out. Veil pretends she and Shallan have separate childhoods. So she doesn't have to acknowledge that she killed her mother. As for Lifts comment that Shallan was hugging herself, I cannot agree that this means Shallan loves herself. I thought it was a joke. Veil, Radiant, and Shallan are in a ring and holding hands and their faces are flickering between all three. I thought this was because only whole Shallan could do that complex lightweaving at the end of OB. It took all three of them working together because all three make a whole Shallan.

At the end of OB, she didn't give up the personas, but she stopped needing them. She stopped feeling the need to create more. I see this as on the path towards reintegration. Shallan created a different background for Veil, which fell apart because Shallan realized that the majority of what she'd invented for Veil fell apart because she, Shallan, didn't have the life experience to make it actually real. Veil, who Shallan created because she felt like she wasn't good enough, also failed. Shallan and the two alters still exist, but in a different state than what they were throughout the book. In one book, Shallan felt inadequate, created personas to feel competent, one of the alters also fails, Shallan has her talk with Hoid and realizes that she herself has value, and though the two alters don't disappear, Shallan doesn't feel like those alters are superior to her core person anymore. Putting the alters aside, Shallan first needed to realize that she herself was valuable and worthy to be loved.

You can see that moment as a joke, but it didn't seem written that way. That's certainly a take on it, but it didn't feel like a joke to me. 

[Guest]

12 minutes ago, Greywatch said:

The mask!Shallan theory takes a lot of suppositions, and I fundamentally disagree with almost all of them. There's not enough text or subtext to support the conclusion that Shallan has anything in between core personality and alter.

She says it herself:

Quote

Adolin deserved someone far better than her.  Could she...become that someone? Craft for him the perfect bride, a woman that looked and acted as befitted Adolin Kholin?

It wouldn't be her.  The real her was a bruised and sorry thing, painted up all pretty, but inside a horrid mess.  She already put a face over that for him.

(Ch. 77, Stormshelter)

The idea is, that Shallan, as is, is also an alter and the core personality is the bruised and sorry thing and the actual host.

12 minutes ago, Greywatch said:

At the end of OB, she didn't give up the personas, but she stopped needing them.

Absolutely not. I agree, that she probably won't fracture into more, but we know from Brandon, that she still will involuntarily switch and we know, that she works at her best if all of her personalities work together.

Quote

Shallan, Veil, and Radiant held hands in a ring. The three flowed, faces changing, identities melding. Together, they had raised an army.

(Ch. 120, The Spear That Would Not Break)

For that it is completely irrelevant, that Lift saw Shallan hugging herself. Shallan wouldn't have been able raise the army that without her personalities, because without them she isn't complete. That their identities were melding is just another sign for me, that they actually belong together.

Regarding the involuntary switching:

Quote

kari-no-sugata [PENDING REVIEW]

In her final scene, she seems like she kind of summons her personas... as if she's fully in control, and they're not coming by themselves anymore, is that correct?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

No.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/256-oathbringer-london-signing/#e8699

 

Edited January 6, 2018 by SLNC

[Greywatch]

Yeah, I've read the theory. Masking our flaws is something everyone does, and this is not convincing me that this is anything more than that. It's one interpretation of the text, but one I find flimsy. 

[Vissy]

4 minutes ago, Greywatch said:

Yeah, I've read the theory. Masking our flaws is something everyone does, and this is not convincing me that this is anything more than that. It's one interpretation of the text, but one I find flimsy. 

And why do you find it flimsy? Creating a new persona for yourself is not "masking our flaws", it's something more severe. I'd be interested to read you delve deeper into this, because so far I haven't had the opportunity to read a convincing response to the "Shallan is also a mask" theory from you. 

[Greywatch]

The thing about that is I don't need a counter theory. I can take a look at a theory, see the evidence, and still say, "no, this isn't convincing." I don't need to have a counter-theory in order to disagree with one. The use of "mask" lines up with how I think of people, all people, mentally healthy people and mentally ill people, covering up their flaws and trying to show their best face to someone. There. That's my take. Now you have the chance to agree with it or not, but I don't need to dredge up "evidence" because the evidence is just, I read the exact same text you did, and came out with a different idea. I could copy/paste the exact same text, say, "this means that Shallan is being herself and feeling like her flaws make her unworthy of love but there's no personas here." 

[maxal]

3 hours ago, Greywatch said:

Yup, this is exactly it - it's subjective, and I find him interesting as is. Not everyone who likes Adolin wants him to have an edge or becoming grimdark to be interesting. Sometimes a character can just be a good person. Whether or not a reader finds him bland is purely taste. You apparently do - I don't.

I definitely think it is a matter of personal taste which is why I don't believe Brandon will start to write Adolin differently because a few disgruntled readers didn't like how he did it. It does not matter how many readers speak of it, the probability of Brandon thinking he made a mistake with Adolin or Adolin's arc is something he needs to work more actively on is slim to none.

Some readers like his character as he is. I don't. I find him boring, annoying even which is a shame as the layers we foreseen in WoR could have led him down much more interesting paths, IMHO. By this, I do not mean grimdark, I am not a fan of grimdark, but I was hoping for conflict to arise, for doubts to be made, for a confidence crisis, for something other than Adolin just shrugging is off everything as if nothing ever happened.

I also really do not believe in perfection, whenever I read a character which appears perfect, I am looking for the hidden issue. With Adolin, I felt the unraveling of the "Perfect Prince Charming" trope was an extraordinarily interesting one to add to SA. I thought it was so interesting to watch a character starting up as "perfect" only to see the cost of this "perfection". I found it modern, relatable and fascinating, but forces are to admit Brandon disagrees with me. 

3 hours ago, Greywatch said:

On the contrary, his character arc in the very first book was him doubting his father... a lot. It's pretty much the raison d'être of his character when we start the series. He frequently second-guesses Dalinar and brings up his doubts about Dalinar's motives and methods. Even after this character arc resolves after WoK, he definitely still disagrees with his father, even though he's now more willing to go along with him even though he might think another way might do better.

In OB, we find out the extent to which Evi raised the boys and what impact she had on how Adolin and Renarin turned out. The reason Adolin thinks what Dalinar did at the Rift is was justified is because he was told that the Rifters killed Evi. Do I think he's going to completely turn on Dalinar if/when he finds out the truth? No, not completely. But it undermines Adolin's established character and Evi's to suggest that he'll be just fine to find out his father essentially murdered his mother, and not the Rifters. 

Adolin doubts his father only long enough to start blindly following him again: he doesn't even have it in him to blame Dalinar for the Tower betrayal. It is however true Adolin was created as a counter-viewpoint to Dalinar: he is a foil character and if WoR introduced the idea he may turned out being more, OB definitely reinforced the notion Adolin is just a foil.

As for Evi, I'd love to believe he wouldn't be "just fine" with it, because this would mean much needed layers and depths, but dare I hope Brandon will use Adolin's character is a more significant way to the main narrative? After OB, the answer is plain no. I was unable to conceive the aftermath of Sadeas's death could be over-looked nor swept under the carpet. This mere idea was unfathomable to me prior to reading OB. I thought it was impossible Brandon would write a story arc I'd consider under-whelming (I'd thought maybe I would not like what he'd do to the character, but never to the extend of OB) and a cruel disappointment and yet he did. Even within my worst predictions, I never predicted this turn of events: it was impossible to me, as a reader, to conceive Brandon would drop the ball on this arc. 

Hence is it possible he'll write Adolin as not caring Dalinar more or less killed Evi? Yes. Totally. Anything can happen now because no matter how much readers yearn, wish and think a given story arc NEEDS to happen, OB showed us it may not be the case. Most of us thought Dalinar would react badly to Adolin murdering Sadeas: oh surprise, he barely cares. Sure, it makes some sort of sense given how the narrative was written, but this certainly is not what readers predicted.

Hence can I take this story arc and think "something" may happen with it? Nope. Evi dying, Helaran, Sadeas, Shallan murdering her parents: I personally believe these will all become Red Herring or story elements readers thought would matter, but turned out not mattering one bit. We were wrong about everything, how dare we say we might be right about something yet to come?

[Greywatch]

1 minute ago, maxal said:

Hence can I take this story arc and think "something" may happen with it? Nope. Evi dying, Helaran, Sadeas, Shallan murdering her parents: I personally believe these will all become Red Herring or story elements readers thought would matter, but turned out not mattering one bit. We were wrong about everything, how dare we say we might be right about something yet to come?

I agree, it doesn't feel good when it turns out we were wrong. But that doesn't mean everyone should stop guessing and theorizing and discussing any more.

[maxal]

7 minutes ago, Greywatch said:

I agree, it doesn't feel good when it turns out we were wrong. But that doesn't mean everyone should stop guessing and theorizing and discussing any more.

But what's the point if we are, yet again, going to built up expectations only to get severely disappointed? Thinking Dalinar more or less killing Evi is salutatory for readers such as myself, because it plants the idea "it may not be over", it plants the idea the character I love "may finally get something more substantial", but it remains readers theories made out of readers over-stating the importance of a few narrative arcs.

OB thought us Adolin, the romance and character interactions were not a priority within SA: some will happen, but never to the magnitude some of us are hoping it will. This is just how SA are: our mistake was badly analyzing WoR and Brandon as a writer.

So what's the point for myself into hoping book 4 will be an amazing book for Adolin's character after the crushing disappointment of OB? None. Other readers such as yourself loved it: it is not like if everyone was complaining about it. Some are, but some is not enough.

Hence, I'll just have to go through my "lost" and try to find another series to hook me up as much, Not an easy thing to do: toss away four years of investment is not easy.

[Greywatch]

1 minute ago, maxal said:

But what's the point if we are, yet again, going to built up expectations only to get severely disappointed? Thinking Dalinar more or less killing Evi is salutatory for readers such as myself, because it plants the idea "it may not be over", it plants the idea the character I love "may finally get something more substantial", but it remains readers theories made out of readers over-stating the importance of a few narrative arcs.

OB thought us Adolin, the romance and character interactions were not a priority within SA: some will happen, but never to the magnitude some of us are hoping it will. This is just how SA are: our mistake was badly analyzing WoR and Brandon as a writer.

So what's the point for myself into hoping book 4 will be an amazing book for Adolin's character after the crushing disappointment of OB? None. Other readers such as yourself loved it: it is not like if everyone was complaining about it. Some are, but some is not enough.

Hence, I'll just have to go through my "lost" and try to find another series to hook me up as much, Not an easy thing to do: toss away four years of investment is not easy.

Unfortunately, this is a matter of life for us as we exist in the spaces in between the releases between books. We have all this time to build up ideas and expectations that over time become very central to our idea of what a successful next-in-the-series would look like, but don't have a bearing on it. It's hard to not have expectations. I'm really jealous of future readers who get to read these all in a row - they miss on these discussions, but they don't have three years in between each one where we develop ideas that will inevitably be wrong. Everyone's going to be wrong about something in the next book, and we just have to make our peace with how that affects how we read in the future. In the meantime, these discussions are still fun and meaningful.

[Ailvara]

1 hour ago, Greywatch said:

Yeah, I've read the theory. Masking our flaws is something everyone does, and this is not convincing me that this is anything more than that. It's one interpretation of the text, but one I find flimsy. 

I think it was exactly like this in WoK/WoR, that Shallan put a mask over her bruised self the way all people do to some extent and it's ofc not creating a persona. But in OB when she fractures,  this mask is all that's left of her after her other, usually more hidden traits get pushed into Veil and Radiant. And that's imo how these issues are related. 

I don't think the "realShallan theory" is about any secret persona. It's just that realShallan is consisted of all Shallan, Veil, Radiant and stuff hidden in the back of her head. 

Edited January 7, 2018 by Ailvara

[Greywatch]

Seeing as Veil and Radiant are also textually made up by Shallan, with details, backstories, and thought processes that Shallan doesn't have but invented in the same way a writer writes a character, I find the amount of "real" Shallan that exists in them not that much. Veil is so much just an invention that it falls apart in Kholinar because Veil isn't a real person and didn't have the life experience that Veil was supposed to have, and then it falls back to Shallan as the fakeness of Veil is unavoidable. There are bits and pieces of herself that exist in Veil/Radiant, "versions of herself", but there was still enough of a personality for her to fall back on. Shallan sees this core person as useless and weak and awful, but she needed to learn to see that self as valuable and worthwhile and good, which is her actual character arc in this book. Unless we get something different in SA4, right now, I can't agree with the dominant theory of "real/mask/etc!Shallan".

[Guest]

8 minutes ago, Greywatch said:

Veil is so much just an invention that it falls apart in Kholinar because Veil isn't a real person and didn't have the life experience that Veil was supposed to have, and then it falls back to Shallan as the fakeness of Veil is unavoidable. There are bits and pieces of herself that exist in Veil/Radiant, "versions of herself", but there was still enough of a personality for her to fall back on.

As Veil is a fraction of Shallan, she obviously is unable to be completely independent. She needs Shallan, but vice versa, Shallan also needs Veil and Radiant, when she comes to the point again, where her Shallan fraction isn't able to handle a situation again (for instance, spying stuff). This wasn't this way in WoR. She created a disguise with Veil, but did the spying as Shallan.

Neither Veil, Radiant or Shallan (what is left of that) are capable of handling every situation alone, but together they could.

No one says the Shallan personality was gone, but that it is incomplete, certain traits and abilities having gone over to Veil and Radiant, which of course makes them incomplete too. Like pieces of a jigsaw puzzle.

 

[Greywatch]

Just now, SLNC said:

As Veil is a fraction of Shallan, she obviously is unable to be completely independent. She needs Shallan, but vice versa, Shallan also needs Veil and Radiant, when she comes to the point again, where her Shallan fraction isn't able to handle a situation again (for instance, spying stuff). This wasn't this way in WoR. She created a disguise with Veil, but did the spying as Shallan.

Neither Veil, Radiant or Shallan (what is left of that) are capable of handling every situation alone, but together they could.

No one says the Shallan personality was gone, but that it is incomplete, certain traits and abilities having gone over to Veil and Radiant, which of course makes them incomplete too. Like pieces of a jigsaw puzzle.

I just don't see those traits as gone from Shallan just because she put them in Veil and Radiant - they still exist in Shallan, and she used those traits in herself to play the part. Those traits will "come back" to Shallan (bad phrasing but what-have-you) as she realizes she can express them in her own person again. Where up until now, she's been too afraid to express those traits publicly, by accepting herself more and more, the alters will "take over" less and less. Veil and Radiant not functioning without Shallan is an absolute given - they're inventions of her. Shallan can function without the alters; she made them because she thinks she can't but - assuming of course that the end result will indeed be reintegration - one day Shallan will be there and the alters will not. I disagree that Shallan using her own traits to create alters means that those traits suddenly stopped existing in her.