[OB] Adolin-Shallan-Kaladin Discussion

[Ailvara]

1 minute ago, Greywatch said:

In terms of Sadeas being murdered, many characters express outright approval - Palona, Hoid... A lot of people are happy and/or relieved he's gone. The sheer number of characters who express a positive reaction build the sense that the narrative does not disapprove of Sadeas being gone. Not to re-awaken the argument, but I don't think the consequences for Adolin killing Sadeas are over, but I think the external world around him is not going to be the punishment. The world around him took a look, said "oh, finally!", and happily moved right on. 

Ah, I get you now. Well, I just think there's no contradiction between someone getting killed being right and someone murdering that person being wrong. It's like everyone is happy someone else took care of the dirty job and storm them... I agree external consequences might be over, but my point was related to the fact that Adolin has decayed morally and that's independent from external consequences. 

[Greywatch]

2 minutes ago, Ailvara said:

Ah, I get you now. Well, I just think there's no contradiction between someone getting killed being right and someone murdering that person being wrong. It's like everyone is happy someone else took care of the dirty job and storm them... I agree external consequences might be over, but my point was related to the fact that Adolin has decayed morally and that's independent from external consequences. 

In a world where Dalinar is the main hero of these books, I just don't find Adolin decaying morally, if we're using these terms, to be an indication that now he's lost and on a bad path forever. I also 100% believe Sadeas being gone is a great and wonderful thing, and also 100% that Adolin still has to deal with it. My favourite moment that tied together Adolin's arc for me at the end was when he realized that he'd himself been repressing emotional reactions for the last while, as he pushed himself to be strong for the mission, strong for Kaladin, etc etc and realized that he hadn't allowed himself to feel grief. His arc was putting others first and realizing it's okay not to be the star of his world anymore, but now he realized he hasn't emotionally dealt with anything in the course of all of it. In my mind, it's a great place for him to start SA4.

[wotbibliophile]

52 minutes ago, Greywatch said:

Shallan is not the only one who approves of him killing Sadeas - beyond Ialai and the Sadeas men, no one else has expressed displeasure or anger. So this is not a Shallan-specific thing.

Adolin already knew he didn't want to be king, and I don't think it's an accurate reading to say that him pushing back on being crowned was because of Shallan; nor does the narrative give any clue or indication that this was wrong on Adolin's part to do so. 

In both cases, the narrative of the book backs up Adolin in the places where Shallan supports him. It might be walked back in later SA books, but for the moment, the text doesn't support these being bad things.

Dalinar is the only person to express regret that Sadeas was killed (this is when they find Sadeas's body). Dalinar expresses a not really realistic hope that he and Sadeas could have managed to work together to fight the desolation.

Then Odium uses Sadeas's men's anger at Sadeas's murder to turn them to his side. This is a terrible consequence for the Coalition. To say the text doesn't support Adolin's murder being a bad thing is not quite right.

 

I agree that Adolin never wanted to be king.

[Kogiopsis]

2 hours ago, SLNC said:

No, because we don't have a PoV from him about that, but he said, that he is worried about her becoming "different people" and he is, from Shallan's PoV, acting very differently around Veil. If he really thought, that Veil is Shallan, why would he do that?

First of all, we don't know if she actually goes through with telling him about the Ghostbloods. And no, Shallan flatout told Kaladin as herself, that she killed her father, which I'd actually rate as a deeper secret for her.

Second of all, Kaladin didn't interact much with Veil. Quite the contrary, when ever Veil tried to seek out Kaladin, she panicked and forced Veil to not do that, because she knew Veil liked Kaladin.

Third of all, Adolin says, that he wants Shallan. He wants Shallan as he knows her, which is the one persona where he squeezed her hand. He is concerned, that she becomes "different people". I am fully confident, that he doesn't see Shallan, Veil and Radiant as one person. If Veil told him about the Ghostbloods, I wouldn't be surprised if he told Shallan the next day, "Did you know that Veil interacts with a secret society, called the Ghostbloods?"

I don't know what that has to do with that? Matricide and patricide are on a whole different page, than killing a generally disliked highprince. Especially for a family man like Adolin.

Hot diggity, I step away for two hours and the conversation careens.

So, I think we've established that we know neither that Adolin addresses Veil differently than Shallan nor that she will definitely tell him about the Ghostbloods.

Also - and this is relevant to comments below as well - Adolin isn't stupid.  What in the WORLD gives you the idea that he'd ask Shallan if she knows about Veil's activities?   There is literally nothing in canon that suggests he's that much of a clueless idiot; in fact, from what we've seen, he has a solid degree of emotional intelligence.  He's not book-educated because, hello?  Alethi man and not a surgeon?

I'm.  I'm actually incensed at this, because it's absurd.  If you want to argue characterization, don't Flanderize the character to do it.  Jeez.

1 hour ago, SLNC said:

I can't follow. You're deriving from the way he worried about how he had no regrets for killing Sadeas, that he wouldn't care that he married a matricide AND patricide? There certainly is a difference between killing in your family and killing an enemy highprince. Especially in such a violent society like the Alethi. If he already had a hard time coming to terms the latter, how could he, as a man valuing family over everything else, just forget if his wife did the former?

And they both had good reasons for doing what they did. He still felt wrong for doing what he did.

 

44 minutes ago, Vissy said:

So Adolin is just going to be Shallan's obedient slave? "Yes Shallan, nothing you ever did could ever bother me." "Yes Shallan, your word is my law."

It is terrible writing to just ignore consequences like this. Matricide and patricide, even when we know that she had no choice, are not things you take lightly. Any person of relative sanity will react with absolute horror to an admission like that. It is, at the very least, a problem that Adolin and Shallan have to work through.

 

31 minutes ago, Vissy said:

Yes, I agree. I still think that Adolin is human. Absolutely anyone would lose their rust at realizing that the person they love the most actually murdered their parents. I don't want him to turn into a 100% Mary Sue trope.

I wanna group all of these together, because... yikes?

Shallan's mother was trying to kill her.  Her father was emotionally abusive, and while we know he doted on Shallan I'd lay money on him being physically abusive towards her brothers.

If your significant other confessed to you that they'd had parents like that, that when they were too young to possibly understand their own mother had attempted to murder her, and that they'd used a weapon they barely understood in self-defense, I think it'd be perfectly reasonable to react in horror... at the very idea that a child had ever been in that situation.

Shallan killing her mother is more akin to an accidental gun death in the home than anything else (except, you know, for the attempted infanticide that prompted it).  That's not something you blame the kid for; that's something you react to with sympathy, because it's a horrific tragedy.

And Shallan's father?  Not all that different from Adolin killing Sadeas.  "Hey, here's this guy who's unpredictable and causes harm to people I love and shows absolutely zero signs of stopping."  Lin Davar was off the rails.  He murdered his second wife and threatened to kill his son.  Shallan - just like Adolin - took action to protect her family as best she could.  

Harmony help us.  I'd accept people not picking up on Shallan's home life being awful after WoK when all we had was the Nan Balat interlude, but after WoR?  To ignore context like this?  To be so brutally unsympathetic to an abuse victim's circumstances?  Ugh.

I'm stepping away from this thread before I actually lose my temper.

[Greywatch]

Just now, wotbibliophile said:

Dalinar is the only person to express regret that Sadeas was killed (this is when they find Sadeas's body). Dalinar expresses a not really realistic hope that he and Sadeas could have managed to work together to fight the desolation.

Then Odium uses Sadeas's men's anger at Sadeas's murder to turn them to his side. This is a terrible consequence for the Coalition. To say the text doesn't support Adolin's murder being a bad thing is not quite right.

Regret... But not disapproval. He's more upset that Adolin didn't tell him. Obviously disappointed that it will hurt the Coalition and their reputation, but while the first thing Dalinar asks if "why did you hide this from me", he doesn't say anything like "how could you do such a thing" or any variant. 

The text also condemns the Sadeas soldiers for allowing themselves to be used by Odium, so the very text states it's not only on Adolin's shoulders. People are responsible for their reactions, and saying that this is only Adolin's consequence also is not quite right.

[wotbibliophile]

10 minutes ago, Greywatch said:

The text also condemns the Sadeas soldiers for allowing themselves to be used by Odium, so the very text states it's not only on Adolin's shoulders. People are responsible for their reactions, and saying that this is only Adolin's consequence also is not quite right.

I was a bit confused by this part of the book. I thought Odium rather forcefully co-opted Sadeas's men. I thought they didn't have a choice. Did you read it differently?

@Kogiopsis  I think as readers we have a lot of sympathy for Shallan and know she didn't have better options. We also know Shallan does not have a lot of sympathy for herself. I interpret Shallan keeping her murders from Adolin as fear that he will think she is a monster just as she thinks of herself. She calls herself a monster, worthless, and says she doesn't matter. These are all things I think prevent her from having a successful marriage. (I wrote in another post that a person who hates themselves can't love another person romantically because they have nothing to give.) I think Shallan wants to continue living a lie and she finds it easy to lie to Adolin.

 

[Greywatch]

3 minutes ago, wotbibliophile said:

I was a bit confused by this part of the book. I thought Odium rather forcefully co-opted Sadeas's men. I thought they didn't have a choice. Did you read it differently?

@Kogiopsis  I think as readers we have a lot of sympathy for Shallan and know she didn't have better options. We also know Shallan does not have a lot of sympathy for herself. I interpret Shallan keeping her murders from Adolin as fear that he will think she is a monster just as she thinks of herself. She calls herself a monster, worthless, and says she doesn't matter. These are all things I think prevent her from having a successful marriage. (I wrote in another post that a person who hates themselves can't love another person romantically because they have nothing to give.) I think Shallan wants to continue living a lie and she finds it easy to lie to Adolin.

Definitely with Amaram, Amaram chose it, and implied very strongly with what Odium said to Dalinar and throughout that confrontation - Odium is really good at making it seem like the only thing to do, but it was still their choice. 

Much of Shallan's arc in Oathbringer was her coming to have compassion for herself - by the time the wedding happens, she's in a place where she is starting to accept and love herself. Just starting, mind, but it's not as grim as your interpretation.

Also interesting of note - a big reason of why I don't believe Shallan putting her best foot forward with Adolin means it's a false mask is that every time she's wondered if she should make a persona for Adolin, she doesn't. She creates Veil, she creates Radiant, but tempted again and again and again to create a persona for Adolin, she doesn't. I don't think she lies to Adolin any more than most people who date someone they really like want the other person to see the best of them - which Shallan does - before they risk it and take the next step to be vulnerable - which Shallan does. We see that Shallan lies to Adolin less and less as the book goes on, which is a great sign for them. (Though the first few scenes I wasn't convinced by their cute scenes "they're lying to each other!" I cried to my book - and then I watched as their romantic arc closed with them being honest with each other, which is just good narrative follow through.)

[wotbibliophile]

With Amaram yes it was quite clear that he chose to side with Odium.

With Sadeas soldiers it seemed less clear. I think they were driven farther than they would have gone without Odium's influence. Like with the Jah Keved soldiers they destroyed themselves and they were miserable but they didn't? couldn't? stop. And when Dalinar killed his own soldiers during a battle. I assume he would not have done that without the Thrill.

And during the rift scene. Dalinar regrets burning the rift even as it is happening but he also feels from the Thrill that the Thrill is not satisfied it wants more and more death. So I consider these people Odium controlled or Odium influenced and therefore doing things they would not have done without Odium. Adolin killing Sadeas created an opening that Odium used. This is the way the text shows Adolin's murder was a bad thing.

 

ETA: Right back to the focus of the thread. Where do you see Shallan coming to have compassion for herself? I would love to read that. Shallan's extremely low self worth is why I wish she had not gotten married. I think I wrote before that Shallan likes herself as long as Adolin likes her. That is not good enough for me. I want to see Shallan forgive herself. I want the book to be really blunt about it.

Edited January 6, 2018 by wotbibliophile

[Greywatch]

22 minutes ago, wotbibliophile said:

With Amaram yes it was quite clear that he chose to side with Odium.

With Sadeas soldiers it seemed less clear. I think they were driven farther than they would have gone without Odium's influence. Like with the Jah Keved soldiers they destroyed themselves and they were miserable but they didn't? couldn't? stop. And when Dalinar killed his own soldiers during a battle. I assume he would not have done that without the Thrill.

And during the rift scene. Dalinar regrets burning the rift even as it is happening but he also feels from the Thrill that the Thrill is not satisfied it wants more and more death. So I consider these people Odium controlled or Odium influenced and therefore doing things they would not have done without Odium. Adolin killing Sadeas created an opening that Odium used. This is the way the text shows Adolin's murder was a bad thing.

 

ETA: Right back to the focus of the thread. Where do you see Shallan coming to have compassion for herself? I would love to read that. Shallan's extremely low self worth is why I wish she had not gotten married. I think I wrote before that Shallan likes herself as long as Adolin likes her. That is not good enough for me. I want to see Shallan forgive herself. I want the book to be really blunt about it.

I think that's giving away way too much of the Sadeas soldiers' autonomy to be valid, as every time we see people joining up with Odium, it's been a conscious choice. The only thing here is that we didn't see the moment of transformation for most of them - we mostly get Amaram as the mouth piece of the Sadeas army. We have to infer from there, and I'm inferring the way that follows the form of every other time people have chosen to let Odium work. A consequence of Adolin murdering Sadeas? Yeah, that's a given. The sole responsibility of Adolin's? No. Really important here is that it wasn't known that Adolin did it - in the absence of any evidence, the Sadeas house only assumed it was a Kholin. They were right, but if it hadn't, it's still canon they would've assumed it anyway. The Sadeas army let themselves be taken by anger at the Kholins, and they were taken away and then killed before Adolin even admits it to Dalinar. They let themselves be angry with no evidence, and they let themselves be taken by Odium.

Kogiopsis had a great post within the last page about Shallan's arc being about self-compassion - I was mostly just summarizing her post, actually.

[wotbibliophile]

2 hours ago, Greywatch said:

I think that's giving away way too much of the Sadeas soldiers' autonomy to be valid, as every time we see people joining up with Odium, it's been a conscious choice. The only thing here is that we didn't see the moment of transformation for most of them - we mostly get Amaram as the mouth piece of the Sadeas army. We have to infer from there, and I'm inferring the way that follows the form of every other time people have chosen to let Odium work. A consequence of Adolin murdering Sadeas? Yeah, that's a given. The sole responsibility of Adolin's? No. Really important here is that it wasn't known that Adolin did it - in the absence of any evidence, the Sadeas house only assumed it was a Kholin. They were right, but if it hadn't, it's still canon they would've assumed it anyway. The Sadeas army let themselves be taken by anger at the Kholins, and they were taken away and then killed before Adolin even admits it to Dalinar. They let themselves be angry with no evidence, and they let themselves be taken by Odium.

Well I don't have much to say right now. I'm still thinking about it, but I was originally responding to this:

 

3 hours ago, wotbibliophile said:

Shallan is not the only one who approves of him killing Sadeas - beyond Ialai and the Sadeas men, no one else has expressed displeasure or anger. So this is not a Shallan-specific thing.

Adolin already knew he didn't want to be king, and I don't think it's an accurate reading to say that him pushing back on being crowned was because of Shallan; nor does the narrative give any clue or indication that this was wrong on Adolin's part to do so. 

In both cases, the narrative of the book backs up Adolin in the places where Shallan supports him. It might be walked back in later SA books, but for the moment, the text doesn't support these being bad things.

I know it says I wrote this but I was quoting you @Greywatch and I don't know how to fix this. Bolding is mine.  I was just saying that I think the text does support that Adolin killing Sadeas is a bad thing. It gives Odium his opening. That is canon.

[Greywatch]

3 minutes ago, wotbibliophile said:

Well I don't have much to say right now. I'm still thinking about it, but I was originally responding to this:

 

I know it says I wrote this but I was quoting you @Greywatch and I don't know how to fix this. Bolding is mine.  I was just saying that I think the text does support that Adolin killing Sadeas is a bad thing. It gives Odium his opening. That is canon.

I don't know how to fix quote boxes, sadly enough. 

But what is also canon is Odium being given an opening doesn't mean the Sadeas men aren't complicit - and they are. I agreed above that Odium was given an opening and that was a consequence - feel free to take another pass at my above post. But it's absolutely also canon that they have to agree. And they did agree. 

[insert_anagram_here]

9 hours ago, Kogiopsis said:

I deeply dislike the idea that Veil is the 'real' Shallan, though, for a few reasons.  One is that Shallan has invented a completely different history for Veil, including life experiences related to classism that Shallan really never had - that being the part that directly leads to her breakdown in Kholinar.  Two is that Veil lacks a lot of the characteristics which are almost completely positive parts of Shallan's life - scholarship, interest in the natural world, and artistry.  With the exception of the drawings influenced by the Unmade, those three traits seem to be where she finds peace most naturally and easily.  Veil relaxes by... getting drunk?  (Which, okay, alcoholism could very well be a Shallan trait as well, and honestly I wouldn't be surprised if genetic predisposition to addiction ran in her family.)

Well if it is a matter of personal taste, I deeply dislike the idea that the proper Veden please-help-me persona Shallan is the 'real' one. I dislike the part of her that decided she is bad at choosing a partner for herself because she blames herself for liking Kabsal. I hate that she she was okay with letting Jasnah conveniently betroth her to what she knew then as 'a prince' and I was just as surprised as Jasnah. Veil would never allow that. Veil is the courageous one that works undercover and places herself in ways of harm to achieve her goal, that one that looks out for the dark-eyes, the compassionate for the weaker ones.

 

[+Hoiditthroughthegrapevine]

Ultimately this is the reality of the situation:

Brandon controls the ship.

*EDIT* Brandon has obviously been attacked by less lampreys.

Edited January 6, 2018 by hoiditthroughthegrapevine

[Guest]

8 hours ago, Kogiopsis said:

Also - and this is relevant to comments below as well - Adolin isn't stupid.  What in the WORLD gives you the idea that he'd ask Shallan if she knows about Veil's activities?   There is literally nothing in canon that suggests he's that much of a clueless idiot; in fact, from what we've seen, he has a solid degree of emotional intelligence.  He's not book-educated because, hello?  Alethi man and not a surgeon?

I'm.  I'm actually incensed at this, because it's absurd.  If you want to argue characterization, don't Flanderize the character to do it.  Jeez.

This has nothing to do with intelligence, but with how we've been told he perceives Shallan's different personalities.

Okay he might not ask her that question, but I still think, that he will think, that Veil is different from Shallan and so Shallan was not the one conferring with the Ghostbloods, which is just not true and Shallan telling him over Veil is not only dishonest, but also further allows Shallan to once again hide behind her personas. To not take responsibility.

And please, I'm getting really discouraged by your tone. It is okay to disagree with me and to tell me why, but you're getting way too angry about this.

Regarding the comparability of killing Sadeas and Shallan killing her parents:

I haven't even argued against that. I know it is comparable and I have full sympathy on why Shallan did that, but only because I have seen her past through flashback sequences.

Adolin does not have that ability. All I'm trying is to gauge a possible emotional reaction of a man, whose wife is constantly hiding things from him and apparently is multiple people at once, a man, of whom we know values family over everything, which could hamper his ability to understand the reason Shallan did what she did, because he only knew having a loving mother and a reasonably loving dad, whose worst crime was neglecting his teenage sons, because he was an alcoholic (I know dalinar did a lot worse things, but Adolin doesn't, which is what is important here.). I'm saying, that through his own background, he'd have trouble to fathom, that what Shallan tells him is true, because his own beliefs on family are completely different.

Another thing is, that he is also often described as being hotheaded. Shallan has good reasons to do what she did, but will he even want to hear these reasons? Or will he get emotional, when she tells him?

Edited January 6, 2018 by SLNC
typo

[Vissy]

4 minutes ago, Kogiopsis said:

If your significant other confessed to you that they'd had parents like that, that when they were too young to possibly understand their own mother had attempted to murder her, and that they'd used a weapon they barely understood in self-defense, I think it'd be perfectly reasonable to react in horror... at the very idea that a child had ever been in that situation.

Shallan killing her mother is more akin to an accidental gun death in the home than anything else (except, you know, for the attempted infanticide that prompted it).  That's not something you blame the kid for; that's something you react to with sympathy, because it's a horrific tragedy.

And Shallan's father?  Not all that different from Adolin killing Sadeas.  "Hey, here's this guy who's unpredictable and causes harm to people I love and shows absolutely zero signs of stopping."  Lin Davar was off the rails.  He murdered his second wife and threatened to kill his son.  Shallan - just like Adolin - took action to protect her family as best she could.  

Harmony help us.  I'd accept people not picking up on Shallan's home life being awful after WoK when all we had was the Nan Balat interlude, but after WoR?  To ignore context like this?  To be so brutally unsympathetic to an abuse victim's circumstances?  Ugh.

I'm stepping away from this thread before I actually lose my temper.

I think you're being unrealistic. Unless Adolin really is the Mary Sue I fear he's become, then he's going to freak out just like any sane person would. Shallan is going to have to explain it with the utmost care to him, well, or it's going to become exponentially harder to explain. Would you, or anyone you know, react with utmost calm to hearing that your loved one shot their parents, accidentally or not, to use your gun death analogy? Yes, you might eventually react with sympathy, but your initial reaction is going to be horrified. You could benefit from some reading comprehension, as you've been arguing against a point I never made - apparently you thought that I'd said something to the effect that Shallan actually is a monster for murdering her parents. Nothing could be further from the truth. 

(That being said, think for a moment on what Shallan did. At an extremely young age, she planned and executed two murders - something most people would not do under any circumstances, no matter how abusive the parent, or as coldly as Shallan did. She might well be on the sociopathic spectrum herself, on top of being a child genius. Not that I think that makes her a horrible person, as I think she's shown ample evidence of being quite a great person when it counts; it's just something interesting to note.)

4 minutes ago, Kogiopsis said:

I'm.  I'm actually incensed at this, because it's absurd.  If you want to argue characterization, don't Flanderize the character to do it.  Jeez.

Oh, and to this, I do have something to note. Brandon has to a certain degree "Flanderized" Adolin himself, for example specifically his fashion obsession when he wrote Adolin's only activities in Kholinar amounting to a game of dress-up. Instead of doing something... interesting. He dropped the ball on the Sadeas murder plotline entirely, which was going to be an integral part of Adolin's character arc... or so it initially seemed, before the beta-reader-suggested Adolin PoVs in the beginning of OB ran dry and Veil took over the investigation. Like it or not, Brandon has kind of bastardized Adolin himself, making him into a Prince Perfect who can hardly do any wrong and to whom everything just kind of falls into his lap. So maybe it's not such a wonder when people start exaggerating him.

Edited January 6, 2018 by Vissy

[RenegadeShroom]

Shallan didn't murder her mother, she killed her in self defense. Shallan didn't plan anything, her mother was trying to murder her young daughter. It's not like she was just going about her business and Shallan, having meticulously planned a malevolent plot to kill this innocent woman, attacked her out of nowhere. Calling it murder is wrong by definition, and frames Shallan in a very different light than how the actual events that played out do. 

Also, I would think that of a teenager who has severe issues with repression, desperately trying to save her family and herself from being hurt and even killed by their father, having a cold manner about her as she does it is pretty understandable. I'd hardly call it sociopathic. Reacting in the way she did emotionally just seems like a natural outgrowth of all of that. In particular having to confront the fact that she feels it necessary to kill her own father. 

[Vissy]

Killing is not a natural outgrowth. Even in self-defense, it's not something a child does. It's not something a lot of people would even be capable of doing. Most children in her position would have whimpered and died. Shallan didn't. It doesn't make her a horrible person, but it also says something about her. She is most definitely willing to kill, even her own parents, if she feels it's necessary - contrast this to Kaladin, for example. He could never do something like that. I'd definitely call it sociopathic behaviour on Shallan's part, though that's where the sociopath comparisons end. She's not one.

Edited January 6, 2018 by Vissy

[Info_Drone-0451]

44 minutes ago, Vissy said:

She is most definitely willing to kill, even her own parents, if she feels it's necessary - contrast this to Kaladin, for example. He could never do something like that.

That's more because Kaladin has an entirely different relationship with his parents. He even says it in the chasms. Something like "I couldn't imagine my life without the support of my parents". I think Kaladin might be a bad example here for the comparison you're making. I believe that maybe Balat's own inability to kill his father or Helaran's refusal to immediately do it might serve better.

 

Edited January 6, 2018 by DimChatz

[Guest]

I don't think anyone is saying, that what Shallan did was wrong or even murder (I may have used the word to describe the killing of her mother as such. You are correct, that it is wrong and I apologize for that.), but it definitely is atypical behavior of a child, even if it was in self-defense. It is a bit morbid to discuss this in this manner, but you can definitely see this as a sign of a sociopathic streak. You don't have to though.

Now, the murder (yes, this was definitely murder) of her father? Definitely sociopathic. She first poisoned him and when that didn't kill him, she decided to choke him to death, while singing a lullaby. She had good reasons, because her father has lost the plot and probably would have killed Balat, but it was not self-defense. And the manner in which she conducted the murder was quite disturbing. Funnily enough, this murder doesn't bother her at all. Killing her mother in self-defense is what is bothering her, but not really because she killed her mother, but because she thinks she is now to blame for the downfall of her family.

I think, Adolin might understand, that Shallan killed her mother in self-defense, but how she murdered her father? And the way she conducted the murder? I don't know, if Adolin isn't disturbed by that, then I find that very unrealistic. Especially because there would have been other ways the children could have handled Lin after he was paralyzed by the poison, but Shallan still decided to kill him. Every single one of her brothers shied away from killing their father. Shallan didn't. This isn't normal behavior.

Just to disclaim: I don't think, that Shallan is evil or something because of that. I just think, that we can't say, that her behavior in that situation is normal. It isn't. And even killing her mother in self-defense is not normal for a child.

Then again, I don't think the persona, that Shallan is for Adolin ever wants to tell him about that anyway. Adolin might find out through other means though. Maybe through her brothers.

Edited January 6, 2018 by SLNC

[Dreamstorm]

4 hours ago, hoiditthroughthegrapevine said:

Ultimately this is the reality of the situation:

Brandon controls the ship.

*EDIT* Brandon has obviously been attacked by less lampreys.

This is kind of my main point! We can debate how we feel about this and that (which can be great fun), but ultimately it’s about deciphering where Brandon is guiding these good ol’ ships. Which is why I get frustrated/roll my eyes hardcore (depending on my joviality factor at the moment) when people decide to conventiently ignore parts of the text in favor of getting all worked up. 

[Vissy]

1 hour ago, DimChatz said:

That's more because Kaladin has an entirely different relationship with his parents. He even says it in the chasms. Something like "I couldn't imagine my life without the support of my parents". I think Kaladin might be a bad example here for the comparison you're making. I believe that maybe Balat's own inability to kill his father or Helaran's refusal to immediately do it might serve better.

 

True, that's a better example. 

[maxal]

10 hours ago, Greywatch said:

I think that's giving away way too much of the Sadeas soldiers' autonomy to be valid, as every time we see people joining up with Odium, it's been a conscious choice. The only thing here is that we didn't see the moment of transformation for most of them - we mostly get Amaram as the mouth piece of the Sadeas army. We have to infer from there, and I'm inferring the way that follows the form of every other time people have chosen to let Odium work. A consequence of Adolin murdering Sadeas? Yeah, that's a given. The sole responsibility of Adolin's? No. Really important here is that it wasn't known that Adolin did it - in the absence of any evidence, the Sadeas house only assumed it was a Kholin. They were right, but if it hadn't, it's still canon they would've assumed it anyway. The Sadeas army let themselves be taken by anger at the Kholins, and they were taken away and then killed before Adolin even admits it to Dalinar. They let themselves be angry with no evidence, and they let themselves be taken by Odium.

Kogiopsis had a great post within the last page about Shallan's arc being about self-compassion - I was mostly just summarizing her post, actually.

This post highlights exactly what I dislike about this story arc. Anyone could have murdered Sadeas and, in the absence of a valid culprit, the Sadeas army would have still think the Kholins are being it. The fact Adolin is the killer bears no significance within the only known consequence of Sadeas's death. The murderer could have been anyone else and the story would have unfold within the exact same manner.

It is why I am saying there were no consequence to Adolin murdering Sadeas. There were consequences to the unexplained murder of a Highprince, but they would have been the same had anyone else done the deed.

3 hours ago, Vissy said:

I think you're being unrealistic. Unless Adolin really is the Mary Sue I fear he's become, then he's going to freak out just like any sane person would. Shallan is going to have to explain it with the utmost care to him, well, or it's going to become exponentially harder to explain. Would you, or anyone you know, react with utmost calm to hearing that your loved one shot their parents, accidentally or not, to use your gun death analogy? Yes, you might eventually react with sympathy, but your initial reaction is going to be horrified. You could benefit from some reading comprehension, as you've been arguing against a point I never made - apparently you thought that I'd said something to the effect that Shallan actually is a monster for murdering her parents. Nothing could be further from the truth. 

I would have also argued any sane person in the world would have reacted towards having an abusive drunken father, any sane person in the world would not have so readily forgiven this father, especially not for having ignored and pushed away the youngest brother he loves. Any sane person in the world would still carry on the scars of teenage years spent compensating for a sick father who'd never talk to him except to criticize him. And yet this is exactly what happened within the textual.

What you say makes a great deal lot of sense, but given how Adolin's character has been written so far, I am not sure if this is the most probable outcome. And yes, Brandon has laid the ground basis to write a "Mary Sue" with Adolin by exaggerating his "normality", his "steadiness", his "good guy" attributes to the point where he made them a tad unrealistic and less relatable.

3 hours ago, Vissy said:

Oh, and to this, I do have something to note. Brandon has to a certain degree "Flanderized" Adolin himself, for example specifically his fashion obsession when he wrote Adolin's only activities in Kholinar amounting to a game of dress-up. Instead of doing something... interesting. He dropped the ball on the Sadeas murder plotline entirely, which was going to be an integral part of Adolin's character arc... or so it initially seemed, before the beta-reader-suggested Adolin PoVs in the beginning of OB ran dry and Veil took over the investigation. Like it or not, Brandon has kind of bastardized Adolin himself, making him into a Prince Perfect who can hardly do any wrong and to whom everything just kind of falls into his lap. So maybe it's not such a wonder when people start exaggerating him.

Ah... Half of me wants to laugh, the other half wants to cry: the "Flanderization" of Adolin's character... Sadly, this is exactly what Brandon did. Having Adolin being waster playing dress-up in Kholinar when the city he loves and cares for is under the control of two Unmandes? When its population is starving? I am supposed to believe Adolin, whom always puts himself last, is actually giggling while trying out new clothes? I understand the scene was meant as a comical-relief to diminish the tension, but it used the wrong character as instead of cracking laughter, he turned a good character having tons of potential into a bland one. Instead of adding on new layers to Adolin, he removed them.

Yes, Brandon dropped the Sadeas murder plotline entirely. His intentions were to have it be Veil's sole arc. He did turn Adolin into a Prince Perfect whom succeeds at everything without being seen to struggle nor to work for: romance, military skills, dueling skills, reviving his dead Blade, murdering a Highprince, being Dalinar's son.

I think the wonder is not readers are starting to exaggerating him, I think the wonder are there are still readers whom believe Brandon may reverse the tide... What assurance do we have Brandon is going to suddenly start making Adolin react like a normal sane person would? What assurance do we have Brandon will stop "Flanderizating" Adolin? What assurance do we have Adolin will not read like "Prince Perfect" within book 4?

Truth is, there are none.

[Vissy]

Well personally, I just think that Sanderson will go into Book 4 as a wiser and more experienced writer. He'll realize that he needs to make an improvement in how to handle Adolin, most probably because he's going to get that very same feedback from his gamma readers (don't think threads like this are the only occasion when people have these criticisms of OB) and so that's why I'm optimistic about the future. He's always growing as a writer, just like anyone else. OB also had a *lot* of great moments and Dalinar's arc especially was very enjoyable to read, if stressful to experience at times, and there were a lot of plot threads still left hanging from as far back as WoR, that may yet be picked up in later installments. That is arguably the whole point of this thread actually, finding these plot threads and rationalizing how they can/will be picked up later 

[Isilel]

15 hours ago, wotbibliophile said:

Dalinar is the only person to express regret that Sadeas was killed (this is when they find Sadeas's body).

 

Personally, I suspect  that Dalinar's attitude towards Sadeas was strongly colored by the fact that he was missing a lot of his memories and corresponding connections. Particularly how his own addiction to the Thrill felt and Torol playing a devil on his shoulder during the Rift disaster. If he had remembered, he likely would have cottoned on much sooner to what his "old friend" was about.

 

Quote

Then Odium uses Sadeas's men's anger at Sadeas's murder to turn them to his side. This is a terrible consequence for the Coalition.

 

I keep encountering this argument, and yet is there even a slightest doubt that Sadeas, if he was still alive, would have enthusiastically joined Odium and that his army would have followed him? I mean, it isn't as if he was personally loved by his troops - their anger was more of a generalized "group identity" thing.

 

14 hours ago, wotbibliophile said:

 So I consider these people Odium controlled or Odium influenced and therefore doing things they would not have done without Odium. Adolin killing Sadeas created an opening that Odium used.

 

The way I see the Thrill after Dalinar's flashbacks is like overindulging in alcohol or taking drugs - yes, a person often does things under the influence that they would have never done sober, but _they_ were the ones who chose to partake in the first place. At the same time, once addicted, it is difficult to resist. What opened Sadeas's army to Odium's influence was the brutal, competitive way  he had been running it for years. It attuned them to the Thrill and opened them to further meddling. Odium himself said that he had been preparing them for a long time, didn't he?

Honestly, if Dalinar was a fraction as conciliatory towards Amaram, who was yes, a bad person but potentially salvageable, as he had been to Sadeas, who was so much worse, he likely could have prevented him and at least a part of the army from flipping.

 

4 hours ago, SLNC said:

Then again, I don't think the persona, that Shallan is for Adolin ever wants to tell him about that anyway. Adolin might find out through other means though. Maybe through her brothers.

I, OTOH, am certain that Shallan confessing the truth about her mother's death to Adolin and her brothers will be a milestone in her character development in the next book. Possibly prompted in some way by the effect of Dalinar's revelations on _his_ family.

Edited January 6, 2018 by Isilel

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, Isilel said:

I, OTOH, am certain that Shallan confessing the truth about her mother's death to Adolin and her brothers will be a milestone in her character development in the next book. Possibly prompted in some way by the effect of Dalinar's revelations on _his_ family.

Could certainly be, but I think her character arc will more involve her accepting that truth for herself, which is something she isn't doing right now. I think, it will be more internal than external. After that she might begin to tell others about it, but then it wouldn't be a milestone anymore.