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[OB] Adolin-Shallan-Kaladin Discussion


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29 minutes ago, DeployParachute said:

Much more succinct than my continued edits to my single post above.  Thanks.

Your last edit is actually quite great. I haven't really put much thought yet into, how Shallan tried to convince Adolin and didn't even see, that she in the end convinced him by playing the ultimate card. Help me. Adolin can't resist helping someone. We know that.

Edited by SLNC
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39 minutes ago, FeatherWriter said:

I mean, at this point, I'm aware of y'all's views on the matter and I've stated mine in long enough form as well. I'd just be repeating myself if I actually fell back into the Shaladin vs Shadolin debate, so I won't do so. I disagree with the interpretations regarding Shallan's personalities and what it means for Adolin vs what it means for Kaladin. I thought the choosing scene hit all the points it needed to and satisfactorily wrapped up this plot thread for the moment. Y'all didn't think that. That's all there is to it.

Cool.  Then perhaps with you in particular, I shall approach it from a writing perspective.  If Shadolin was Brandon's end game all along for this arc (as taking this scene at face value like you do would require), then I think there are reasonable arguments to be made as to why bringing Kaladin into the mix at all was objectively bad writing.  Until i have more time to delve into this in detail, I'll leave you with a high level summary

1. Kaladin and Shallan were introduced as a potential love connection by the text of WoR, and continued into OB, however none of their feelings were explored in any depth with themselves, or with each other.  The romance angle had no impact on their respective narratives (so far, or in this scenario, ever), so Brandon could have easily left it as friendly comrades, instead of the hinted "braided roses" trope that so many Shadolin supporters seem to loathe.  He spent a lot of page time building this up.  A lot of references, a lot of foreshadowing.  So much so that I know for a fact many Shadolin shippers were afraid that this was exactly where it was going. 

2. Shalladin had no impact on the positive progression of Shadolin, so any argument that Kaladin was included to provide some much needed tension, or an obstacle for Shadolin to overcome seems pretty far reaching. Why not make Shallan's personalities be an issue between them from the start?  Why not make Adolin have more doubts from the get go.  Why not actually show some of Adolin's purported weaknesses with courting and romance, explore it as a character trait more in depth? I feel pretty comfortable in saying that choosing to forgo any obstacle building between Shallan and Adolin for the meat of the book, and instead leaving it to the end to rush it all with a few pages of the second to last chapter is poor romance writing.

3. Relying on Kaladin as a love interest to help sell readers on the splitting of Shallan's personalities seems like a risky move, considering how many readers were so loathe to imagine a love triangle.  There were many ways that Brandon could have explored this facet of her arc, but he didn't, and ultimately, Kaladin wasn't even a cause for any of her fractured personalities, so you could remove his involvement, and you'd still end up with Veil (created in WoR), or Radiant (created in OB by Adolin interaction).  

Why add it to your writing, if it is not going to have any impact to your characters decisions or the trajectory of their arcs.  Take Kaladin and Shallan romance out, and everyone still ends up where they are currently at, in much the same exact way.  This is bad writing. Don't introduce it, if it is not going to have an impact (Chekhov's gun).

When I look at this portion of the narrative from a cohesive plotting and writing standpoint, and only look at it at face value, it stinks of sloppiness.  What use did the romantic hints of Shalladin serve?  Nothing, if I were to take your interpretation of the book. Why waste the screen time on it?  Why embed it in so many parts of the books?  It never provided any real emotional conflict for the characters, nor conflict for us.  All it did, up until that very final scene we were just discussing, is fill Shadolin shippers with anxiety, and Shalladin shippers with expectations.    

So then I have to ask myself a question:  do I think Brandon is such a sloppy writer, that he would intentionally write it this way, to be taken at face value?  Or is there something else at work here?  I choose to believe the latter, though at the same time I am not ruling out the former.

Your thoughts, Feather?

Edited by DeployParachute
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31 minutes ago, DeployParachute said:

Your thoughts, Feather?

My thoughts are that I'm just... tired of the discussion for the most part. I think there is a hang up here in this thread on objective truth, and it's an issue I've seen in other threads on the Shard too. Romance, characters, plots, and enjoyment thereof are so so so so deeply opinionated that trying to argue down to tacks over who's "right" just seems like an exercise in futility. You didn't like the plotline. I did. We can... just accept that those two realities are both true without one of us needing to be right or wrong about it. Just because a plot didn't work for you does not necessarily mean that it's flawed or worthless. Just because it's not the way you would have done it doesn't mean that it's objectively and unquestionably bad. Just because I thought it was great doesn't mean that everyone's going to see it that way.

See: The Last Jedi. No spoilers here, but I loved it. Probs one of my fave Star Wars movies of all time. One of my dear friends hated it and thought it was horrible storytelling, a disgusting mockery of a beloved franchise. We both talked about our thoughts and then we continued to be friends and it was fine. I didn't convince her that TLJ was a shining bastion that reworked a familiar narrative that needed refreshing and she didn't convince me that the plot was full of inexcusable holes and worthless storytelling decisions.

Same thing here. I'm not going to convince you that Shallan and Adolin are a good pairing and that Oathbringer showed this well. You're not going to convince me that it didn't. That's fine. What works for me might not work for you. I don't love everything Brandon does in his books, but I really loved this. You and many of the other upstanding Sharders in this thread didn't. That's cool. 

I'm not going to be able to explain to you why the plot worked for me because it didn't work for you. These threads are cool when we get a difference of opinion and people get to say "I didn't read it that way, but it's interesting that you do" or "Oh, I hadn't thought of that angle, that changes my perspective." But when it's all about convincing the other side that you're right and they're wrong, it just gets onerous. 

At least for me. Maybe other people really like that kind of discussion and they are welcome to it. But I'm good without it. Back in the golden days of WoK-only SA fandom, my closest friends were my shipping rivals. I didn't like Kalarin that much and they didn't like Shallarin. We still had great talks and fun amusing fake rivalries. Now we've both written things for our "former enemy ship" and we're still besties. Heck, at this point, I've probably written more fic for Kalarin than I ever wrote for Shallarin. Life's funny like that. 

I think Adolin and Shallan are cute and supportive and work well together. I don't need Adolin to say outright, in his POV, how much he loves Shallan for me to be satisfied that he does. He's always been a character that is more externally read than internally. I think the book has adequate representation of Shallan and Adolin not only as a healthy couple but a couple who are truly attracted to one another. I think Shallan and Kaladin were a good example of mistaken physical attraction for romantic, and were an excellent subversion of typical romance narratives. 

If you disagree, that's fine. But if y'all want to keep saying that because you disagree, it's because Brandon Sanderson is objectively and factually a bad writer who screwed it up and made a huge mistake, then... well I guess that's fine too, but it's not a conversation I'm really interested in pursuing. Weirdly enough, I'm not overly enthused about participating in conversations in which things I like are stated to be "unquestionably bad because it's not an opinion it's the truth and if you can't see that then you should convince me you're correct or concede that I am correct instead."

Nah. I got better things to do. Live your life, think your thoughts, ship your ships. I know I'm going to.

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22 minutes ago, FeatherWriter said:

My thoughts are that I'm just... tired of the discussion for the most part. I think there is a hang up here in this thread on objective truth, and it's an issue I've seen in other threads on the Shard too. Romance, characters, plots, and enjoyment thereof are so so so so deeply opinionated that trying to argue down to tacks over who's "right" just seems like an exercise in futility. You didn't like the plotline. I did. We can... just accept that those two realities are both true without one of us needing to be right or wrong about it. Just because a plot didn't work for you does not necessarily mean that it's flawed or worthless. Just because it's not the way you would have done it doesn't mean that it's objectively and unquestionably bad. Just because I thought it was great doesn't mean that everyone's going to see it that way.

See: The Last Jedi. No spoilers here, but I loved it. Probs one of my fave Star Wars movies of all time. One of my dear friends hated it and thought it was horrible storytelling, a disgusting mockery of a beloved franchise. We both talked about our thoughts and then we continued to be friends and it was fine. I didn't convince her that TLJ was a shining bastion that reworked a familiar narrative that needed refreshing and she didn't convince me that the plot was full of inexcusable holes and worthless storytelling decisions.

Same thing here. I'm not going to convince you that Shallan and Adolin are a good pairing and that Oathbringer showed this well. You're not going to convince me that it didn't. That's fine. What works for me might not work for you. I don't love everything Brandon does in his books, but I really loved this. You and many of the other upstanding Sharders in this thread didn't. That's cool. 

I'm not going to be able to explain to you why the plot worked for me because it didn't work for you. These threads are cool when we get a difference of opinion and people get to say "I didn't read it that way, but it's interesting that you do" or "Oh, I hadn't thought of that angle, that changes my perspective." But when it's all about convincing the other side that you're right and they're wrong, it just gets onerous. 

At least for me. Maybe other people really like that kind of discussion and they are welcome to it. But I'm good without it. Back in the golden days of WoK-only SA fandom, my closest friends were my shipping rivals. I didn't like Kalarin that much and they didn't like Shallarin. We still had great talks and fun amusing fake rivalries. Now we've both written things for our "former enemy ship" and we're still besties. Heck, at this point, I've probably written more fic for Kalarin than I ever wrote for Shallarin. Life's funny like that. 

I think Adolin and Shallan are cute and supportive and work well together. I don't need Adolin to say outright, in his POV, how much he loves Shallan for me to be satisfied that he does. He's always been a character that is more externally read than internally. I think the book has adequate representation of Shallan and Adolin not only as a healthy couple but a couple who are truly attracted to one another. I think Shallan and Kaladin were a good example of mistaken physical attraction for romantic, and were an excellent subversion of typical romance narratives. 

If you disagree, that's fine. But if y'all want to keep saying that because you disagree, it's because Brandon Sanderson is objectively and factually a bad writer who screwed it up and made a huge mistake, then... well I guess that's fine too, but it's not a conversation I'm really interested in pursuing. Weirdly enough, I'm not overly enthused about participating in conversations in which things I like are stated to be "unquestionably bad because it's not an opinion it's the truth and if you can't see that then you should convince me you're correct or concede that I am correct instead."

Nah. I got better things to do. Live your life, think your thoughts, ship your ships. I know I'm going to.

So, I think that you may be conflating a couple of things, and perhaps misunderstanding some of my intent.

How a piece of writing makes us feel, and how well a piece of writing is written are not always the same.  I agree with you that yes, the enjoyment and interpretation of a piece of literature is a very personal, and subjective experience.  But I also believe that how well something is written can be objectively debated, and there are generally agreed upon elements to writing and ways something is put together that we can use to evaluate this.  If we couldn't, then why would we have publishers, editors? Why have any kind of classes on writing at all?  Why would Brandon teach it?  If one enjoys a piece of writing, can they ever feel that it is badly written? Interesting question to contemplate, and my answer would be yes.  I feel that way about many things, books, television, movies.

Coming back to OB, what I'm saying is that I don't think the writing is potentially "objectively bad" because of where we ended up: Shallan and Adolin married.  I'm saying it is objectively bad because of how we got there.  I wasn't stating that I am unequivocally right about this.  I put forth my assertion, offered arguments, and invited you to provide yours to counter.  It wasn't meant to be an I'm right and you're wrong statement.  It was an invitation to convince me, or at least address some of the issues I have with the writing that I feel go largely without discussion by those who were happy with were we ended, regardless of how it was arrived at.  I would at least like to see some response to the issues raised, instead of you assuming I could never be convinced,  I don't have to be right, and you don't have to share my opinion, but I will admit i do enjoy attempting to change minds through discussion.  But it is the process itself that is enjoyable for me, not necessarily the end state.  It is why I too, can remain close friends with those who share very different viewpoints and opinions than I. 

If you don't want to participate in this discussion, then I'm not going to push you.  Should you wish to respond, you can, but please don't feel obligated.  Concerning the rest of your post above, much of what you lay out is of course part of the subjective interpretation of the text.  However, you do kind of start to get to speaking specifically about writing, and potentially addressing on of my burning questions about why add Kaladin romantically to the plot, and what purpose did it serve: "an excellent subversion of typical romance narratives".  Could you elaborate on this? Was the element of subversion of typical romance plots worthy of introducing into the SA? If so, why, and how did its subversiveness add to the narrative?  

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2 hours ago, Dreamstorm said:

Wow, this discussion (chastisement?) turns into love of gay romance and I barely have time to respond!  If anyone has the talent to write a suitably smutty Kadolin fan fic please send it my wayyyyyy. I’ve found some cute ones, but nothing which really, um, gets down to it enough.

@Kogiopsis if you’ve got any good fanfic for Kalarin I’d love those recs too. I don’t see Renarin as the most sexual of characters, but I think post-OB there’s more to go on. (No touching! Oh touching...)

Most of the fic that's out there isn't particularly sexual - I get that this probably wasn't your implication, but there's more to gay romance than sex, and more to shipping as well, for that matter!  That said, if the cute stuff holds any appeal, here's my blog's Kalarin tag.  The top few posts are a rambling informal modern world/college AU; there's also a few links to now you know me, and I'm not afraid - a post-WoR timeline divergence.  TheRangress also wrote make an honest man of me, which I love (I mean, I love all of her fic, generally; she may someday overtake my captaincy).  Also, I'm extremely :wub: about Recommendations for a couple of reasons.

2 hours ago, DeployParachute said:

Repeat conclusion from my edited post above:

She basically tells Adolin: Veil has a physical attraction to Kaladin, but you need not worry about that.  And there is plenty of textual evidence that Shallan's feelings for Kaladin are a bit beyond the physical.  Or do we honestly agree that Kaladin equates to "a terrible taste in men" for Alethi or Veden sensibilities?  She tells Adolin why she likes HIM, but unfortunately, she stops there, and doesn't address the non physical attractions she (or Veil) has for Kaladin.  Its just shoved off to the side, and dismissed by her as unimportant, and she works very hard to convince Adolin of this.  I feel bad for Adolin, that they couldn't have an honest conversation about those feelings Shallan has, because maybe they could have worked it out together, and been a stronger couple and then subsequent husband/wife after.  Shallan hid truths about her feelings for Kaladin from Adolin about as effectively as she does from herself.  And this concerns me, because Adolin deserves better than that.

Okay, chiming in here because I have a completely different read on how that works out.

Relationships are, fundamentally, about choice.  Choosing to commit to someone, and then renewing that choice day in and day out - that's what keeps you going, that's what keeps people together, not just attraction.  Attraction is out of your control; commitment is deliberate.  So:  Shallan chooses Adolin.  And that's a big deal for her!

Here's the thing that I loved about that scene, actually:  Shallan, much like Lift in Edgedancer, has been hesitant to take up agency in her own life.  Even when she does things very deliberately and strategically, she often doesn't take explicit responsibility for her own actions, no matter the consequences.  The split personalities are a manifestation of this - she becomes Radiant so she isn't responsible for killing her mother, Veil so she doesn't have to acknowledge her work with the Ghostbloods and the betrayal it represents.It's interesting that when she loses Jasnah - and thus, Jasnah's shadow to stand in - she creates Veil, who immediately becomes more proactive than Shallan Prime.  She doesn't quite fully commit to any one organization, she hesitates to commit to her own spren... and she doesn't commit to a love interest.  (She tried that, a tiny bit, with Kabsal, and that hardly primed her for good relationships.)  This is pure speculation, but... I think you could argue that Shallan's attraction to Kaladin manifests, in some small part, as an escape route from committing to Adolin - or at least, that it can be seen that way in retrospect.  Sorta like how if you don't feel like going somewhere, suddenly you find reasons to stay home, even if you know you'd have a better time going out.

When everything goes horribly wrong in Kholinar, though, Shallan is forced to face the consequences of her action; she is quite literally confronted with the responsibility she bears for the harm she has caused.  This is when her fractured personalities start to break down.  When she can no longer hide in repressed memories or alternate selves, the only choice left to her is to bear what she's done and carry on.  And if that sounds familiar, that's because it's an echo of Dalinar's arc: the solution lies not in forgetting or ignoring, but in acknowledging and striving to be better.  The Shallan we see in Parts 4 and 5 is starting to take her first shaky steps down that path.

This is why it felt so fitting to me that she ended the book by swearing an oath of commitment to Adolin - because at the beginning of the book, Shallan wouldn't have done that, wouldn't have even come close.  Marrying Adolin is an act of responsibility and deliberate choice - and there is a point to be made that she might not really be mature enough for marriage just yet, and I can see the logic in that, and yet - if she can hold on to this relationship, if she can really put in the effort to make it work, that will help her do the same in other aspects of her life.  It's a pretty significant first step.

She's not done growing, and there will be struggles and backslides along the way, just as we've seen with Kaladin's depression.  And it might take her longer to disclose details to Adolin, but I would argue that would only be unfair to him if she had acted on her attraction to Kaladin, and that Shallan has enough problems with self-acceptance to justify approaching that disclosure slowly.  Besides, whenever they talk about it, what Adolin is going to learn is... basically the same thing she already told him - that despite Kaladin's Radiant-ness, his physical attractiveness, his brooding intensity and all the rest, Shallan chose Adolin.  That's a pretty hefty compliment, when you get right down to it.

2 hours ago, SLNC said:

...Switching chaos ensues.

Kaladin doesn't see it.

Adolin does.

Shallan wants confirmation, that Veil and Radiant are different people from her, because all together she would be the Shallan that she hates again.

Adolin gives her that confirmation.

So it is imperative for her, that they stay together. Regardless of how Adolin feels about it.

Okay, this is the first line of argument I've seen that makes the 'Adolin is worse for her mental health' argument make... some sort of sense.  I'm not persuaded, per se, because I read Adolin and Shallan's interactions differently - what you see as 'confirmation that Veil and Radiant are different people' I saw as Adolin gently refusing to acknowledge them as equal to the real Shallan.  I suspect that interpretation difference is going to continue until SA4, absent new evidence either way.

 

...anyway, I really didn't intend to get dragged into this actual discussion; I was supposed to just be here for snarky comments.  Ah well.

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2 hours ago, FeatherWriter said:

I mean, at this point, I'm aware of y'all's views on the matter and I've stated mine in long enough form as well. I'd just be repeating myself if I actually fell back into the Shaladin vs Shadolin debate, so I won't do so. I disagree with the interpretations regarding Shallan's personalities and what it means for Adolin vs what it means for Kaladin. I thought the choosing scene hit all the points it needed to and satisfactorily wrapped up this plot thread for the moment. Y'all didn't think that. That's all there is to it.

So what you mean is, that it's a mostly healthy and reintegrated Shallan who makes the decision at the end? Or that the part of her that dominates is right to dominate and Veil and Radiant don't matter? Or that they'll truly fall in line and be happy with Adolin eventually? 

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4 minutes ago, Kogiopsis said:

This is pure speculation, but... I think you could argue that Shallan's attraction to Kaladin manifests, in some small part, as an escape route from committing to Adolin - or at least, that it can be seen that way in retrospect.  Sorta like how if you don't feel like going somewhere, suddenly you find reasons to stay home, even if you know you'd have a better time going out.

All of your post was a good read, and I'm glad you made it.  The above lines in particular have me thinking in different ways about my questions regarding the merits of having Shalladin in the narrative at all.  So thank you for that.

Quote

...anyway, I really didn't intend to get dragged into this actual discussion; I was supposed to just be here for snarky comments.  Ah well.

Drive-by snarking is a no go, you gotta earn your snark around here :D

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10 minutes ago, Kogiopsis said:

Okay, this is the first line of argument I've seen that makes the 'Adolin is worse for her mental health' argument make... some sort of sense.  I'm not persuaded, per se, because I read Adolin and Shallan's interactions differently - what you see as 'confirmation that Veil and Radiant are different people' I saw as Adolin gently refusing to acknowledge them as equal to the real Shallan.  I suspect that interpretation difference is going to continue until SA4, absent new evidence either way.

That is completely fine, but I'm glad, that the argument atleast kind of got to you. And I understand, that this can be seen completely differently, but in the end I guess it all hinges on what one defines as the "real Shallan". Is it Shallan without Veil and Radiant? Or is it Shallan with Veil and Radiant reintegrated in her core personality? I think it is the latter, because the "new", fractured Shallan is so different from the WoR Shallan. I know, that characters change, but I find it revealing how she lost exactly traits, that she had before, like confidence, boldness, the ability to think pragmatic and mental strength, to power through hard situations, to Radiant and Veil. How she needs them to function in certain situations, when she didn't before.

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1 minute ago, SLNC said:

That is completely fine, but I'm glad, that the argument atleast kind of got to you. And I understand, that this can be seen completely differently, but in the end I guess it all hinges on what one defines as the "real Shallan". Is it Shallan without Veil and Radiant? Or is it Shallan with Veil and Radiant reintegrated in her core personality? I think it is the latter, because the "new", fractured Shallan is so different from the WoR Shallan. I know, that characters change, but I find it revealing how she lost exactly traits, that she had before, like confidence, boldness, the ability to think pragmatic and mental strength, to power through hard situations, to Radiant and Veil.

See, the scene where she first created Radiant seemed, to me, to indicate that there were aspects of her alternate personalities which weren't inherent to Shallan - in Radiant's case, her confidence and comfort with a Shardblade.  I'd... also have to reread to confirm this, but I think that's the first time we really see her view her alters explicitly as a means of getting away from herself; in WoR, Veil hadn't developed yet beyond being a tool Shallan used.  (In fact, there's a moment in OB where she first perceives a thought as coming from Veil which suggests something similar.)  In that case, we'd be looking at OB as the first time Shallan's Lightweaving has progressed far enough to let her leave herself behind and explore the freedom of being someone else.

I think you may be on to something with the idea that she outsourced her confidence, etc, but perhaps what that indicates is that it's not going to be a simple this-or-that choice.  She may end up having to confront (figuratively or literally via lightweaving) her alters and sort out what she needs/wants and what she doesn't, as part of her continuing process of figuring out who she wants to be.  Again, we're back to that active choice thing.

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9 minutes ago, Kogiopsis said:

in WoR, Veil hadn't developed yet beyond being a tool Shallan used.

And yet, she stated to Pattern, that she put in a part of herself, when she created the Veil disguise. Veil then evolved into an independent alter in OB, but is still an intrinsic part of Shallan.

Also the WoK blurb says the following:

Quote

The third is the liar, a young woman who wears a scholar's mantle over the heart of a thief.

I think, that Veil (a thievish personality) is a lot more character-defining for Shallan than we might think. We also see a lot of that in WoR.

11 minutes ago, Kogiopsis said:

See, the scene where she first created Radiant seemed, to me, to indicate that there were aspects of her alternate personalities which weren't inherent to Shallan - in Radiant's case, her confidence and comfort with a Shardblade.  I'd... also have to reread to confirm this, but I think that's the first time we really see her view her alters explicitly as a means of getting away from herself;

Shallan always had confidence. How else would she have infiltrated the Ghostbloods, that was a bold and confident move. She also had the mental strength to hold her Shardblade, when she needed to. Now she needs Radiant and Veil for that.

16 minutes ago, Kogiopsis said:

I think you may be on to something with the idea that she outsourced her confidence, etc, but perhaps what that indicates is that it's not going to be a simple this-or-that choice.  She may end up having to confront (figuratively or literally via lightweaving) her alters and sort out what she needs/wants and what she doesn't, as part of her continuing process of figuring out who she wants to be.  Again, we're back to that active choice thing.

I don't think so.

See, I have no definite proof, but I think, that her bond with Pattern is slowly deteriorating. He is stunningly silent during most of OB and worried about Shallan's use of alters. Shallan (as Veil) also once describes him as sounding drowsy, which is pretty damnation un-Spren like. Why? Because as long as she is fractured, she is running away from acknowledging who she is. The murderer of her mother, which was the Fourth Ideal/Third Truth, that she spoke. The path of the Lightweaver is to find self-awareness. How can you find self-awareness, if you aren't even yourself? Pattern states in Kholinar, that Shallan wraps her lies in other lies. The first lie being Veil and the second lie being, that Veil is different from Shallan, because she tells him to call her Veil, when he calls her Shallan. I think, that to continue being a Radiant, she'll need to reintegrate.

Wit also tells her to go back to the woman she was. Which is also a pretty blatant call for her to reintegrate herself again.

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12 minutes ago, SLNC said:

Pattern states in Kholinar, that Shallan wraps her lies in other lies. The first lie being Veil and the second lie being, that Veil is different from Shallan, because she tells him to call her Veil, when he calls her Shallan.

Actually, I read it as even stronger evidence for her playing with masks: that she wrapped the Shallan-lie in Veil-lie, both of them put over her real self. 

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27 minutes ago, Ailvara said:

Actually, I read it as even stronger evidence for her playing with masks: that she wrapped the Shallan-lie in Veil-lie, both of them put over her real self. 

I'm still not quite convinced, that Shallan is a lie, but rather just a part of her real self, but it could be correct... I mean Pattern should know the real Shallan, right? He knew her before the incident with her mother.

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9 hours ago, FeatherWriter said:

I think there is a hang up here in this thread on objective truth, and it's an issue I've seen in other threads on the Shard too. Romance, characters, plots, and enjoyment thereof are so so so so deeply opinionated that trying to argue down to tacks over who's "right" just seems like an exercise in futility. You didn't like the plotline. I did. We can... just accept that those two realities are both true without one of us needing to be right or wrong about it.

I think there’s a lot of confusion over what people see as objective or subjective (not what the words mean, but what is being referred to.) I think one’s opinion about which boy Shallan should be with and one’s opinion about whether or not the plot worked can only be subjective. You can reach a consensus on it, but it still just means a majority ascribes to an opinion as to the quality of a plot line or romantic pairing. In this instance, this is all subjective, and reasonable people can disagree, and you are correct that each person can validly hold her own personal opinion. 

However, where I see confusion is that a large part of this discussion is not personal feelings but hypothesizing where Brandon is planning to end up with this plot arc. In this sense, there is an objective correct answer. (Unless you believe Brandon doesn’t know the conclusion of Shalladin v Shadolin, and I did recently learn some people may think this is still in flux in Brandon’s mind.) But let’s assume Brandon, outline writer that he is, has a definite conclusion in mind for this romantic arc, and thus we can search for this conclusion, the objective answer to the plot, in the text we have. After book 5 (I’m guessing it’ll be done by then, eeesh) there will be a right and a wrong to it, because one will be the chosen ending (or none - we have trinary options here.) To put another way, Shadolin is objectively the relationship in place at the end of OB - to argue the book says otherwise is madness - and it is valid to debate the objective answer as to whether Brandon plans to keep that conclusion throughout the rest of the series. Does this make sense? Emotions don’t matter, but it’s a game of seeing what clues you can pick up to guess Brandon’s intentions, regardless of how one might feel about those intentions.

As far as Shallan ending up with Adolin, I found the pivotal scene to be the one before the one being discussed above - the one where Shallan settles down on the wall walk and Adolin approaches her and squeezes her hand to pick “Shallan” - as this is the scene where Shallan actually chooses Adolin. (She informs him of her decision in the next “I’m not an object” scene.) Two things about the writing here convince me that this was not supposed to be a “strong” moment for Shallan.

First, we had clearly established symbolism from the end of part 3 that the strong Shallan is the “girl who stood up.” In the Adolin portion of this scene, Shallan is sitting down (settled against the wall wall - it’s at the beginning of the scene.) It’s while she’s sitting that she flickers personas and Adolin chooses “Shallan”. So Shallan is sitting for this pivotal choice of “which personality is really me.” When Kaladin lands, she (as Veil) stands up and thinks to approach Kaladin. Brandon established clear sitting/standing symbolism for Shallan, and I think he is the quality of author who isn’t careless with using these elements once established; he has to be thinking about positioning given the emphasis he put on that positioning. This can be read as “Shallan” is the girl sitting down and Veil is the girl standing up, or Shallan around Adolin is the girl sitting down and Shallan around Kaladin is the girl standing up. Either way, I believe this placement to be intentional and is meant to highlight the healthiness (or lack thereof) of Shallan’s choice. (I only noticed it myself when mentioned by a (Shadolin!) fan who went to a signing.)

Second, towards the end of this scene, Veil and Radiant both urge Shallan to pick Kaladin. Shallan then “stuffed them into the back of her brain” and asserts that they are NOT her. We see repeatedly throughout the books that Shallan stuffing things into the back of her brain/mind is not healthy for her - her memory suppression is a huge part of what is causing her problems and is also tied to her advancement as a radiant. This similar “stuffing” is described in much the same way throughout OB in relation to Heleran and her matricide. I can’t imagine we are supposed to see this “stuffing” as good,  but without it, we do not have a “Shallan” who can choose Adolin because a full two of her personas do not agree with that choice. As far as Veil and Radiant not being her, we have a WoB that she is one in the spiritual realm (the questioner asked if Veil or Radiant showed up seperately), which is about as clear an answer as we can get that Veil and Radiant ARE integral parts of Shallan. So in order to choose Adolin, Shallan has to forcibly suppress integral parts of herself. I can’t imagine Brandon wants us to think this is a GOOD thing, given how we’ve spent all book being shown how suppression is bad for her. (Heck - her main “Kaladin is bad” point comes from a conversation where he idolized her ability to repress things, and now ironically that same repression ability is the reason she can even choose Adolin!)

It’s things like this that make me think Brandon’s plan for the end game (that being the objective answer to where this is headed) is not Adolin. Emotionally... I’d obviously go with Kadolin (for which I would actually hold out hope given their amazing chemistry if Brandon hasn’t said he wouldn’t do it!)

******

To @FeatherWriter and @Kogiopsis thanks for the links! I will check them out. Kogio I know sex isn’t all there is to a gay romance - or any romance - and a lot of people like to explore other aspects in their writings, but I just happen to like reading the smutty parts quite a bit :ph34r: 

*****

Edited to add that reread your analysis @Kogiopsis and I really like what you say about Shallan actually making a choice (I liked it the first time, but even more upon reread - just like OB :D); she did decide to make a decision, and I agree that is good.  (This also aligns with the WoB which says Shallan has made progress but has a ways to go.)  I would have much preferred her choice to be neither, because that would show even more agency (the ability to stand on her own), but I also completely understand why Shallan's character is not in a place where that would be emotionally possible.  Like @SLNC says, she needs Adolin in order to anchor herself, so she is making the only choice she really can at the moment in order to not completely fall apart.  But, like you said, she is still making a choice, and even that first step will make it easier to make that next step.  ("What's the most important step a man can take?... Always the next step.")

Ha - I was searching for Dalinar's exact phrasing and came across this quote from Chapter 8, A Powerful Lie: "The first step to being in control is to see yourself as capable of being in control."  This seems to encapsulate what you're saying really well.

8 hours ago, Kogiopsis said:

This is why it felt so fitting to me that she ended the book by swearing an oath of commitment to Adolin - because at the beginning of the book, Shallan wouldn't have done that, wouldn't have even come close.  Marrying Adolin is an act of responsibility and deliberate choice - and there is a point to be made that she might not really be mature enough for marriage just yet, and I can see the logic in that, and yet - if she can hold on to this relationship, if she can really put in the effort to make it work, that will help her do the same in other aspects of her life.  It's a pretty significant first step.

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2 hours ago, Dreamstorm said:

Like @SLNC says, she needs Adolin in order to anchor herself, so she is making the only choice she really can at the moment in order to not completely fall apart.

But how much free choice is left, if that is the only real choice you can make?

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2 hours ago, Dreamstorm said:

First, we had clearly established symbolism from the end of part 3 that the strong Shallan is the “girl who stood up.” In the Adolin portion of this scene, Shallan is sitting down (settled against the wall wall - it’s at the beginning of the scene.) It’s while she’s sitting that she flickers personas and Adolin chooses “Shallan”. So Shallan is sitting for this pivotal choice of “which personality is really me.” When Kaladin lands, she (as Veil) stands up and thinks to approach Kaladin. Brandon established clear sitting/standing symbolism for Shallan, and I think he is the quality of author who isn’t careless with using these elements once established; he has to be thinking about positioning given the emphasis he put on that positioning. This can be read as “Shallan” is the girl sitting down and Veil is the girl standing up, or Shallan around Adolin is the girl sitting down and Shallan around Kaladin is the girl standing up. Either way, I believe this placement to be intentional and is meant to highlight the healthiness (or lack thereof) of Shallan’s choice. (I only noticed it myself when Brandon mentioned it to a (Shadolin!) fan who went to a signing.)

What do you mean by that bolded part? What did he mention? What is the WoB?

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6 hours ago, Kogiopsis said:

Relationships are, fundamentally, about choice.  Choosing to commit to someone, and then renewing that choice day in and day out - that's what keeps you going, that's what keeps people together, not just attraction.  Attraction is out of your control; commitment is deliberate.  So:  Shallan chooses Adolin.  And that's a big deal for her!

This is the main reason I hate "love triangles". There is this unspoken rule that one side is about commitment and the other is about attraction. This is what drives people to conclude from the very beginning that the 'commitment' side is the correct one. Well, guess what, you can actually have both. It's not always about giving up one over the other. They aren't mutually exclusive. And honestly, if you want to have a marriage that lasts until the end of your days, you need as much attraction as commitment to your other half. Dalinar and Navani are exactly the example of a spark that exists throughout the decades and only flames up and evolves into commitment when the circumstances are aligned.

What I'm saying isn't that Shallan doesn't have attraction for Adolin, but it's something they cultivated into the relationship because the betrothal was already there. They are two healthy young people after all, it was easy to do. That doesn't exclude the possibility that from an attraction to Kalladin, she could have cultivated commitment with him, which is how most relationships work in modern life. First comes attraction, then commitment. They just didn't have enough opportunities to build that, they never thought it was an option, since she was already constrained by her betrothal to Adolin. How can we possibly judge the two relationships on equal terms when the betrothal was in effect before she even met either of them?

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4 minutes ago, SLNC said:

But how much free choice is left, if that is the only real choice you can make?

I think it's the point that she actually did something, she actually made a choice.  Maybe it was the only choice she could really make, but the alternative is flailing about (which is what was happening for a lot of OB!), and so she finally took an affirmative step to stop that flailing.  This doesn't mean Adolin and her are going to work, but I think Shallan doing something - rather than nothing - is positive, even if that choice ends up not being sustainable.  (Also since this aligns with the WoB on her progress it rings true to me as far as what he was intending.)

6 minutes ago, Vissy said:

What do you mean by that bolded part? What did he mention? What is the WoB?

The WoB is below (spoilered for length.)  Also below is the link (and the quote) where Kari is discussing asking the WoB and mentions Brandon noting the sitting thing.  Now that I'm looking back at this - we didn't have the exact WoB at the time, were just discussing Kari's recollection of it - I can't tell if Kari is noting that Shallan is sitting down or if he's saying Brandon mentions it.  Since it's not in the recording, maybe this is just Kari noting she's sitting down?  If so, I didn't mean to mislead like that!  I interpreted it as Brandon noting it at the time, and it was the first time I realized she was sitting down which was a big "what is going on here" moment for me.  (I was still desperately trying to accept the Shadolin ending at this point.)

Spoiler

kari-no-sugata [PENDING REVIEW]

Shallan... in Oathbringer... she meets Adolin, and he's staring into her eyes. And she thinks that he can see that when she's Shallan again. So, my question is, is she correct? And if so, how did Adolin see that?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

So, it's not a magical thing. She shifts even when she's kind of being herself... When she becomes different people, even if she's not completely Lightweaving herself, she shifts.

kari-no-sugata [PENDING REVIEW]

Is it visible?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

It is visible.

kari-no-sugata [PENDING REVIEW]

So he's looking very closely.

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

And he wouldn't be able to point out that he had seen that. But it's intuitive, and he's learned to recognize that.

kari-no-sugata [PENDING REVIEW]

In her final scene, she seems like she kind of summons her personas... as if she's fully in control, and they're not coming by themselves anymore, is that correct?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

No.

kari-no-sugata [PENDING REVIEW]

So, they still come and go as they want?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Yes, she's much more in control, but still has a way to go.

kari-no-sugata [PENDING REVIEW]

Would Wit basically approve of what she's done?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

He would give her a "that's a step forward, but you're not there yet."

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/256-oathbringer-london-signing/#e8699

Quote

In the scene at the end that I asked Brandon about, Shallan is sitting down at the time and Adolin is only looking at her eyes (and Navani and Jasnah didn't seem to notice anything too unusual just prior).

 

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2 minutes ago, Dreamstorm said:

I think it's the point that she actually did something, she actually made a choice.  Maybe it was the only choice she could really make, but the alternative is flailing about (which is what was happening for a lot of OB!), and so she finally took an affirmative step to stop that flailing.  This doesn't mean Adolin and her are going to work, but I think Shallan doing something - rather than nothing - is positive, even if that choice ends up not being sustainable.  (Also since this aligns with the WoB on her progress it rings true to me as far as what he was intending.)

Yeah. I can accept that interpretation.

I dunno. I still have a big problem with dependence in relationships, but I guess I'm a bit of a free spirit by nature.

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19 hours ago, Chaos said:

I agree with you, and am not saying you shouldn't continue talking. I'm not making an edict, I just am worried that other voices haven't gotten to say things in this thread because several voices have heavily dominated the discussion. You of course can stay and I don't want to censor anything. It is just a minor concern of mine. 

Yeah unfortunately I agree with this. The thread has gone on so long that the viewpoints we have at this point is very slim in comparison to the shard as a whole as many people who participated earlier in the thread now actively avoid this thread leaving fewer viewpoints and less meaningful discussion. :(

Edited by MonsterMetroid
fixed typo
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7 hours ago, SLNC said:

I'm still not quite convinced, that Shallan is a lie, but rather just a part of her real self, but it could be correct... I mean Pattern should know the real Shallan, right? He knew her before the incident with her mother.

I would definitely say that Shallan is very much her base self, even if much of that core has been splintered and a bigger part of it may now reside in Veil.

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11 hours ago, Kogiopsis said:

This is why it felt so fitting to me that she ended the book by swearing an oath of commitment to Adolin - because at the beginning of the book, Shallan wouldn't have done that, wouldn't have even come close.  Marrying Adolin is an act of responsibility and deliberate choice - and there is a point to be made that she might not really be mature enough for marriage just yet, and I can see the logic in that, and yet - if she can hold on to this relationship, if she can really put in the effort to make it work, that will help her do the same in other aspects of her life.  It's a pretty significant first step.

Thank you for this, as it's exactly what many of us here are looking for: analysis within the context of foreshadowing and character development. This also goes to the shipping/predicting dichotomy. I'm firmly on the predicting side, and I wouldn't be doing this for another author. I don't really care about relationships in ASoIaF, Harry Potter, Wheel of Time, or the other fantasy novels I read (leaving out Rothfuss because I'm more invested in Kvothe/Denna than the other exampels). Brandon is different because he's trained me to expect these things. He's let me know that what's coming at the end is right there at the beginning if you can find the right lines and interpret them the right way. The only reason I'm invested is because I like that game and I like playing it, but there are winners and losers. The winners get their guesses vindicated and the losers....well the losers write erotic fanfic, or maybe fill up a forum thread with 70+ pages.

What you've done is play the game with us, which hasn't really been the case with other Shadolin proponents. Most of what we've gotten seems to take what happened at face value, which isn't just not playing the game but saying the game doesn't exist in the first place.

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12 hours ago, SLNC said:

And yet, she stated to Pattern, that she put in a part of herself, when she created the Veil disguise. Veil then evolved into an independent alter in OB, but is still an intrinsic part of Shallan.

I think, that Veil (a thievish personality) is a lot more character-defining for Shallan than we might think. We also see a lot of that in WoR.

Shallan always had confidence. How else would she have infiltrated the Ghostbloods, that was a bold and confident move. She also had the mental strength to hold her Shardblade, when she needed to. Now she needs Radiant and Veil for that.

See, I have no definite proof, but I think, that her bond with Pattern is slowly deteriorating. He is stunningly silent during most of OB and worried about Shallan's use of alters. Shallan (as Veil) also once describes him as sounding drowsy, which is pretty damnation un-Spren like. Why? Because as long as she is fractured, she is running away from acknowledging who she is. The murderer of her mother, which was the Fourth Ideal/Third Truth, that she spoke. The path of the Lightweaver is to find self-awareness. How can you find self-awareness, if you aren't even yourself? Pattern states in Kholinar, that Shallan wraps her lies in other lies. The first lie being Veil and the second lie being, that Veil is different from Shallan, because she tells him to call her Veil, when he calls her Shallan. I think, that to continue being a Radiant, she'll need to reintegrate.

Wit also tells her to go back to the woman she was. Which is also a pretty blatant call for her to reintegrate herself again.

Apologies for poor phrasing; when I mentioned 'confidence', that was also meant to be in reference to 'with a Shardblade'.  THAT SAID:  while I think Shallan has done her fair share of brave things, I wouldn't necessarily argue that she is confident about them.  She has always struck me much more as the 'fake it till you make it' sort of person - she projects confidence that she doesn't feel, in hopes that she'll be able to find her footing.  Sometimes she manages to do so, but I don't think you could argue that Shallan, in and of herself, is a confident person.  Bold, perhaps.

So, here's the thing about the 'reintegration' hypothesis.  First of all, I fundamentally disagree with anything which posits Veil and Radiant as somehow equal or equivalent to Shallan herself; this is one of the things that's gotten under my skin in this thread, when people insist that Veil's attraction to Kaladin should be weighted as strongly as Shallan's to Adolin, because Veil is a subsidiary of Shallan.  

If a 'reintegration' is necessary, then it needs to come through Shallan Prime, and with a focus on the idea that she can be many things at once: that Shallan can have Veil's cunning and self-assuredness; that Shallan can have Radiant's strength and decorum; that she doesn't have to externalize these traits for them to be real.  Veil is different from Shallan, because Veil is Shallan's way of escaping from herself.  She hates being herself, as you mentioned several posts ago - but she needs to accept that the things she hates and the things she doesn't can both be part of one person.

The more I think about OB, the more I love the parallels between Shallan and Dalinar's arcs.  Exhibit A is this Dalinar quote:

Quote

"If I pretend…If I pretend I didn’t do those things, it means I can’t have grown to become someone else. Journey before destination. It cannot be a journey if it does not have a beginning."

This is where Shallan gets stuck.  Her first whole-room Lightweaving, at the end of WoR, is emblematic of this - at her core, she still sees herself as a terrified, guilty, bereft child.  She needs to adjust to the idea that she is not defined by her past, and that she can have been that girl and yet still grow and change.  (Orson Scott Card, for all his... other... 'qualities'... wrote a brilliant line in Speaker for the Dead:  "Sickness and healing are in every heart.  Death and deliverance are in every hand."  The trick of being human and moving forward is being able to process those contradictions, I think.)

6 hours ago, insert_anagram_here said:

This is the main reason I hate "love triangles". There is this unspoken rule that one side is about commitment and the other is about attraction. This is what drives people to conclude from the very beginning that the 'commitment' side is the correct one. Well, guess what, you can actually have both. It's not always about giving up one over the other. They aren't mutually exclusive. And honestly, if you want to have a marriage that lasts until the end of your days, you need as much attraction as commitment to your other half. Dalinar and Navani are exactly the example of a spark that exists throughout the decades and only flames up and evolves into commitment when the circumstances are aligned.

What I'm saying isn't that Shallan doesn't have attraction for Adolin, but it's something they cultivated into the relationship because the betrothal was already there. They are two healthy young people after all, it was easy to do. That doesn't exclude the possibility that from an attraction to Kalladin, she could have cultivated commitment with him, which is how most relationships work in modern life. First comes attraction, then commitment. They just didn't have enough opportunities to build that, they never thought it was an option, since she was already constrained by her betrothal to Adolin. How can we possibly judge the two relationships on equal terms when the betrothal was in effect before she even met either of them?

Ahh, again, I should have clarified.  Shallan pretty clearly is attracted to both of them* - commitment is what tips the scales, not the entirety of her relationship with Adolin.  

Could she have cultivated commitment with Kaladin?  Entirely possible.  I don't think they would have done well together - Shallan's classism and sarcasm-as-defense-mechanism don't really mesh healthily with Kaladin's life experience or the fact that he's an emotional open book.  (Further thoughts, pre-OB, here.)  Maybe in, like, three more books... but as I described above, I feel like Shallan's choice of Adolin here is a key step forward for her, and I don't really see this issue needing to be revisited for anyone's arc later.  (I also, personal ships aside, agree that in canon Kaladin is absolutely not in the right headspace for a relationship.  I suspect by the time he is, if ever, his attraction to Shallan will have passed.  It happens!)

((*I would argue that she can, absolutely, be taken at her word when she describes Kaladin's appeal as similar to that of a painting.  It's entirely possible to find someone attractive, even magnetic, without actually considering them a viable romantic partner.  For example:  Idris Elba is frickin' stunning, aesthetically, and seems like a truly great guy.  I'd love to befriend him, and if I were an artist I would definitely stare at his face, y'know, a lot.  But that doesn't mean I'd say yes if he asked me out on a date.  Kaladin... seems like, in-world, he'd be the same way - fascinating, hot as hell, with the allure of distance and mystery.  That makes him great to moon over or fantasize about, but that's no guarantee of anything else.  In fact, another redheaded Sanderson heroine has addressed this before:

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"I never said anything about his morality, Joel, only his face."

The sage words of Melody Munns, y'all.))

1 hour ago, Rainier said:

Thank you for this, as it's exactly what many of us here are looking for: analysis within the context of foreshadowing and character development. This also goes to the shipping/predicting dichotomy. I'm firmly on the predicting side, and I wouldn't be doing this for another author. I don't really care about relationships in ASoIaF, Harry Potter, Wheel of Time, or the other fantasy novels I read (leaving out Rothfuss because I'm more invested in Kvothe/Denna than the other exampels). Brandon is different because he's trained me to expect these things. He's let me know that what's coming at the end is right there at the beginning if you can find the right lines and interpret them the right way. The only reason I'm invested is because I like that game and I like playing it, but there are winners and losers. The winners get their guesses vindicated and the losers....well the losers write erotic fanfic, or maybe fill up a forum thread with 70+ pages.

What you've done is play the game with us, which hasn't really been the case with other Shadolin proponents. Most of what we've gotten seems to take what happened at face value, which isn't just not playing the game but saying the game doesn't exist in the first place.

Hey, I'd love to accept this compliment, but I think you're being a little backhanded to other people in this thread.  I know Feather's been in here with solid analytical responses at the absolute least, and I'm very skeptical that there haven't been others.

Also, in a thread whose OP started out with "Which of the two ships did you like more in Oathbringer?", this discussion was never gonna be purely predictive.  Nor are analytical/English class-style responses the only valid responses.  I know shipping is a relatively new concept over here, so perhaps in the future such discussions should be flagged from the start by what kind of response people are seeking.

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I love this thread.

What I am looking for in a book is consistency and I thought the end of OB was inconsistent. That is why I disliked it so much.

Shallan says some things that make it seem that she wants to be herself. She says "He knows me", and that Veil and Radiant are not her, and that Adolin encourages her to not hide, but then she says to Adolin I can be anyone you want which seems to say she absolutely does not want to be herself. Then Adolin says he just wants the real her so Shallan says alright I'll do that even though it will be hard. So Shallan wanting to be herself is not consistent what is consistent is that she wants Adolin and she'll do anything to keep him including being other people if that is what he wants. The way I read this was Shallan says "I have a role to play and you Adolin have the script." It is really gross.

 

That Shallan suppressing things is bad is something that is consistent. Like @Dreamstorm has said there has always been the implication that Shallan needs to confront her issues in order to be healthier mentally and to progress as a Radiant. The end of OB has Shallan suppressing Veil and Radiant and then marrying Adolin and this is presented as a good thing. Suddenly suppression is good. This is inconsistent and very frustrating.

 

Shallan says Veil and Radiant are not her. But earlier in OB Veil is walking around chatting with Pattern. Pattern calls her Shallan and she says call me Veil so Pattern says your lies wrap other lies. To me this means Veil is Shallan according to Pattern. I expect Pattern to know what the truth is and I find it believable that Shallan would believe her own lies. So Shallan says Veil and Radiant are not her and then she marries Adolin and this seems to be good and right. It is presented as a happy ending and fits the classic fairy tale "And they lived happily ever after." I am baffled. It seems to me bad and wrong. OB has lost consistency.

 

Compare this to the end of WOR. Kaladin hating lighteyes is consistent throughout the book as well as Syl's concern whenever he starts ranting about evil lighteyes. This is resolved at the end of the book by Kaladin admitting he was wrong to try to assassinate Elhokar and swearing an oath to protect even those he hates. His bond is restored and he saves the day. Syl is the one who points out that Kaladin hating lighteyes is a bad thing. Now image Kaladin goes through with assassinating Elhokar and the book ends in celebration. Dalinar is crowned king. This is a triumph. It turns out Kaladin was right all along to hate lighteyes. I think some people would feel the confusion I feel at the end of OB.

 

ETA:

20 minutes ago, Kogiopsis said:

So, here's the thing about the 'reintegration' hypothesis.  First of all, I fundamentally disagree with anything which posits Veil and Radiant as somehow equal or equivalent to Shallan herself; this is one of the things that's gotten under my skin in this thread, when people insist that Veil's attraction to Kaladin should be weighted as strongly as Shallan's to Adolin, because Veil is a subsidiary of Shallan.

 

I have seen elsewhere in this thread that Shallan (realShallan) has broken into pieces. Those pieces are Shallan=3, Veil=2, and Radiant=1. I think we can all agree that Radiant is really thin and there is not much to her.

So realShallan would be all three together. 3 + 2 +1 = 6. realShallan comes out to 6. Shallan is a stronger personality than Veil but she is still not whole. If she was whole than she would be more like she was in WOK and WOR i.e. able to handle periods of stress.

 

Aslo remember that within OB Shallan says Veil is vital and that it would be easier to discard Shallan than Veil.

 

Then there is a WOB where he says he wrote the romance to show Shallan was splitting into different people who each loved different people. It is Sanderson himself who seems to be making an equivalency between Shallan's feelings for Adolin and Veil's feelings for Kaladin.

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2 minutes ago, wotbibliophile said:

Shallan says some things that make it seem that she wants to be herself. She says "He knows me", and that Veil and Radiant are not her, and that Adolin encourages her to not hide, but then she says to Adolin I can be anyone you want which seems to say she absolutely does not want to be herself. Then Adolin says he just wants the real her so Shallan says alright I'll do that even though it will be hard. So Shallan wanting to be herself is not consistent what is consistent is that she wants Adolin and she'll do anything to keep him including being other people if that is what he wants. The way I read this was Shallan says "I have a role to play and you Adolin have the script." It is really gross.

So, I have a question, because that conversation has come up before.

Do you read it as a joke?

Because I do.  Shallan's "If you wanted, I could be practically anyone," sounds like two things to me - one, suggestive humor, insinuating that she can fulfill Adolin's bedroom fantasies; and two, a perhaps-unconscious request for assurance that he doesn't want her because she can be anyone, but because she is uniquely herself. (If you're skeptical of the humorous interpretation, look at the line that precedes that one - "Some men drool over the idea of such debauchery."  That's pretty clearly an eyebrow-raised allusion to a foursome.)

And... as someone with personal experience of mental illness, Adolin's reactions in that scene are deeply reassuring.

Quote

"That's worrisome, Shallan."

"I won't let her act on it.  I promise."

"I didn't mean that," Adolin said.  "I meant ... you, Shallan.  Becoming other people."

Adolin straight-up says that 1) he trusts Shallan implicitly not to cheat on him and 2) that his greatest worry here is Shallan being okay and stable.

Their subsequent exchange continues this:

Quote

 

"But that's the thing, Shallan.  I don't want anyone.  I want you."

"That might be the hardest one.  But I think I can do it, Adolin.  With some help, maybe?"

 

Asking for help is hard, especially when what you need help with is letting walls down and being honest* and vulnerable with others.  Adolin's absolute steadiness and his firm belief that Shallan, in particular, is worthy of that steadiness - that offers her a lot of reassurance that she's struggling to find internally.  (One of the weirdest, but most helpful habits I developed in college, when struggling with depression, was literally asking my friends if they hated me, because sometimes I could not shake the conviction that they did without external evidence.  I see something similar going on here with Shallan.)

I don't think the conversation would have gone the same way if Adolin had taken her up on the offer to 'be anyone'.

And yeah, this might look or feel a little like dependence, but... ideally, shouldn't a partner be supportive?  The degree of support necessary is gonna fluctuate over time.  Right now, Shallan is struggling and needs to lean on Adolin a little more.  Nothing wrong with that, in and of itself.

(*oh, hey, a Lightweaver trait!  fancy that.)

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11 minutes ago, Kogiopsis said:

Do you read it as a joke?

I have tried to read it as a joke. Actually my first thought was that it was a meta joke. "Hey Adolin you get three wives" Adolin replies "No thanks I just want you" I thought it was a knock against Rand and his three women. Not surprisingly, I think about WOT a lot.

I did read it as kind of humorous, but I took it literally since Shallan does have a problem of pretending to be other people. We the reader are very aware of this problem and I would have preferred to see Shallan address this problem before committing to marriage. Since she still has this problem as she is talking to Adolin in this scene I find it very concerning.

You have really given me a lot to think about. Your interpretation is very sweet. I tend to be very literal and I will miss things, especially jokes. Shallan asking for help is great. I just really wish she could get that help and not think she has to get married right now.

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