Harbour

[OB] Adolin-Shallan-Kaladin Discussion

2,388 posts in this topic

I have been convinced that Adolin does not have strong feelings for Shallan. There were two things that convinced me (they are sort of the same thing though).

1. We get Adolin's POV where Shallan stands up straight when she sees Kaladin. Adolin admits he has noticed her looking at Kaladin before and that she seems to be interested in Kaladin and maybe has feelings for him. Adolin does not have a strong reaction to this realization he is just resigned. I expect he would have a more emotional reaction if he was more invested in Shallan and his relationship with her.

2. Adolin breaks up with Shallan (well he tries) and again we don't see that he is having an emotional reaction to their separation. He is just matter of fact. He is just matter of fact in both of these scenes.

 

 

5 minutes ago, Rainier said:

For you it was Adolin, for whoever's still around (and isn't scolding us), it's Shallan. If this really is the end of her love triangle, I'm going to be disappointed. Mighty disappointed, much like I imagine you feel. It scares me. You're like Jezrien, drunk in the streets, moaning about the Unmade and I see in you my future....

lol. Yes completely agree.

 

P.S. Yeah I learned how to quote someone!

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1 hour ago, maxal said:

Some readers have had the same thoughts... I, of course, do not know the exact answer (nor am I pretending to know it), but it is very easy to look back and to say our grievances might have been the by-product of the accelerated editing process, the choice of reviewers and Brandon Sanderon's very busy schedule. We however cannot know for sure this is the case... I personally found it baffling the author would purposefully choose to write such an under-whelming story arc for Adolin murdering Sadeas: I do not even understand how Brandon himself thought this was for the best, let alone the dozen of reviewers which went through this book before it got released. Mind, from what I have heard, some didn't like it, but their voice didn't end up changing much to the final product.

What have you heard?

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I can clear up some of the beta reader front. Mostly because Brandon (and the beta team) have talked publicly about the process of the beta read and what things were influenced. For one, betas were outspoken about wanting more Adolin in the books, just not quite to the level that I think that Maxal would have wanted. To me, Oathbringer had enough plot threads that did big transformative character arcs and brought people to cruxes of conscience and character. No, Adolin wasn't one of them, but Adolin did have the privilege of participating in pretty much every major storyline even if he wasn't the focal point of it. The beta draft had much less Adolin, betas complained that they wanted more scenes specifically from his point of view and Brandon did that. The Galant scene in Part 1 was added wholesale in order to give Adolin an early viewpoint and let us into his head there.

Could the Sadeas murder plot have been a major plotline? Sure. Did it absolutely need to be? No, and I think it's fine that it wasn't. Is the book flawed or poorly constructed because that didn't become a major plot? In my opinion, it's not. Brandon picked what he did and didn't want to be a big deal and that one just wasn't picked. Epic fantasy series have problems with overcrowding and too many plots and characters. I think adding an Adolin plot in just because it would have been possible wouldn't have been a wise decision. And I assume Brandon agrees, because he didn't do it.

I'll pull this quote from Brandon in the Beta AMA:

Quote

So here, off the top of my head, are some of the things that I changed in the book related to Beta Reader comments. These topics are "open" for discussion--meaning you can ask Betas for more specifics on them, if you feel like it. These were all things I changed specifically because of Beta interaction.

Adolin's viewpoints were added to Part One. As was a quick run-down on Renarin's powers, and what he was learning to do with them.

The romantic angle between Shallan/Adolin/Kaladin was tweaked as I more and more referenced the idea that two different personalities of Shallan's were in love with two different people. IE--moving it further away from a love triangle, and instead showing more clearly that that Shallan was splitting further into multiple people, with different life goals.

This wasn't coming across in the early drafts, though I sometimes couldn't quite tell which responses were knee jerk "Twilight ruined love triangles! Don't do them!" comments and which were "I'm not convinced these four people--counting Shallan as two--are actually working in relationships." (I'll note that I, personally, am very pleased with how this part turned out in the books--but the betas certainly helped me get there. I'd guess that this is one of the more contentious matters of fan discussion about the book. The point of bringing it up here isn't to discredit anyone's feelings about the actual arc, just point out how the betas helped me find the balance I wanted.)

(source)

(bolding is mine)

It's not that no betas brought up Adolin or the love triangle. It's certainly not that. We had huge discussions about the love triangle, and I have a feeling that the majority of betas who made it to the end wrote at least a paragraph on their thoughts regarding the development of the characters and the arc as a whole. We didn't all agree. Many betas liked it, many didn't, some liked the idea of taking it in different directions, others thought it was fine as is. I've said before I hated the triangle all the way through WoR and Oathbringer for fear that it was playing out in straight cliches. Seeing the ending made it work for me both in hindsight and because of some of the ways Brandon changed it in Oathbringer after beta comments. (I, for one, really liked the reinforcement of Shallan's separation with two different sides of her being interested in two different people. I thought that broke some of the cliche molds that I had been seeing.)

It's fine if the conclusion didn't work for you or if you felt it didn't play out right. But it's not because Oathbringer was a shoddy rush job that didn't get buffed up and edited the way it needed to be. The triangle was always going to be contentious and there will always be fans who wanted something out of a book and didn't get it. (I personally was in a bad place after Words of Radiance because that very thing happened to me there. That's another story though.) But this is the ending that Brandon likes and is proud of. He's pleased with the balance he's hit, even if there's still people who didn't like it. He got a lot of feedback on these parts of the book, probably moreso than anything else in Oathbringer, and he used that feedback to construct the ending that he wanted.

I think he nailed it. You don't have to, but you should understand that Brandon's not going to apologize for the way it turned out or try to redact it and "do better in the future." He liked this ending and he's going to stand behind that, even when other people don't agree.

P.S. This has nothing to do with A/S/K and this thread, but since it's in the quote I gotta brag a little bit that you know ya girl here had some influence in getting more of Renarin's powers in the book. Wasn't just that it was stuff I wanted to see as a Renarin fan, but it helped Renarin's plot to add the things that got added.

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Posted (edited)

@Chaos and @FeatherWriter

Why does it bother you so much there are readers which believe some story arcs could have been done better? Shouldn't we be allowed to have this discussion, within an appropriate thread, without being told by moderation/beta readers we shouldn't be having it? Because your posts oddly sounds like interventions made to say there are topics we can discussed and there are topics we can't discussed.

@Chaos: I believe I am mature enough to know when my point is made and when my contribution exceeds the pay-off to the point where I may feel to go see elsewhere if I am still wanted. Please be aware of how this post would read like had it been written by anyone else.

Nobody attacked the work of the beta readers within this thread: myself included. I have stated on numerous occasions knowing some of the points I have brought forward have been brought forward too during the editing process. I am more than well enough with everything single word you are saying and, if you read my posts, you will find it is indeed the case. 

My perspective is if beta readers input was needed to add more of the little sparse Adolin we got in OB, then the situation does not bode well for those readers having loved the character. It means what the author has initially planned was even more under-whelming then what we got. You also need to know this has been one of the most talked about topic since the release of WoR: the minute those readers find it under-whelming, then yes, discontent discussion was bond to happen. And yes, people are going to ask what went wrong. There was so much hype and anticipation for those arcs, some of us cannot fathom the final product didn't manage to live up to it, so yes, the editing process will end up being criticized be it fairly or not. The fact half the beta readers thought the criticized story arcs were fine as they were and they loved other aspects of the book is not going to change a thing: some readers still feel unsatisfied with this book, be it for the romance, for Adolin or for other narrative aspects.

I do personally feel we should be allowed to state what we personally feel are problems within this book. We all love Brandon Sanderson, but some of us were disappointed by OB. We are fans too, we are important too. Our voice may not matter "as much as others", but I do think it deserves a channel to be heard, as long as it remains respectful and I sincerely believe it has been within recent days.

Edited by maxal
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10 minutes ago, maxal said:

@Chaos and @FeatherWriter

Why does it bother you so much there are readers which believe some story arcs could have been done better? Shouldn't we be allowed to have this discussion, within an appropriate thread, without being told by moderation/beta readers we shouldn't be having it? Because your posts oddly sounds like interventions made to say there are topics we can discussed and there are topics we can't discussed.

I mean, you've gotta be aware of the irony of insisting that, because a book was not what you specifically expected, it is evidence of shoddy work in the writing/editing process... especially when your platform for said declaration is the official fan forum for the author.  There's criticism and critique, and then there's pages upon pages of griping.

Anyway, I'm gonna go back to observing this thread from the nosebleed seats with popcorn in hand.  Just wanted to point out that if you're really that unhappy with the book, maybe you should read something you enjoy more instead.

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Ah the curse of the moderator badge. Everything reads like an edict.

No one's shutting this topic down or saying that the discussion needs to be stopped. I'm not speaking for Chaos, but my response was meant not as a moderator shutting down discussion, but a beta reader who had insight on the process since that was a point that's been brought up. I've seen several of your responses mention early reviewers not having done enough for Adolin, and as one of them, came to give my perspective on that topic. 

Just as you're allowed to have this discussion in an appropriate thread, so are those who don't agree with you.

3 hours ago, maxal said:

(...) it is very easy to look back and to say our grievances might have been the by-product of the accelerated editing process, the choice of reviewers and Brandon Sanderon's very busy schedule. We however cannot know for sure this is the case... I personally found it baffling the author would purposefully choose to write such an under-whelming story arc for Adolin murdering Sadeas: I do not even understand how Brandon himself thought this was for the best, let alone the dozen of reviewers which went through this book before it got released. Mind, from what I have heard, some didn't like it, but their voice didn't end up changing much to the final product.

Unfortunately, the only individual able to answer those questions would be Brandon Sanderson himself. Chances of that however aren't very high.... these aren't subjects he readily talks about. I have seen him address critics for his previous books, but I am not sure he would believe our grievances are validated.

10 hours ago, maxal said:

You can't get behind the argument neither the alpha nor the beta readers saw fit to point it out to Brandon? I can. Why? Because the readership which Brandon is writing for, the readership which is represented within those groups is not the readership which bothers itself with Adolin nor the romance. It wasn't flagged because those groups loved the book: the percentage of the readership which was disappointed with the book was not represented within any of those groups. This is why it wasn't criticized. Brandon is not writing SA for the purpose of fleshing out Adolin nor the romance, reviewers understand this, hence they are always on-board with whatever Brandon is suggesting.

I thus maintain my point, there are no Adolin viewpoint speaking of his feelings because Brandon just never thought it was important. His reviewers and his editors didn't think it was important either. The "what we see is what we get" quote refers mostly to the "most obvious answer is the best". Adolin loves Shallan. It isn't textually written in the books because Brandon believes the character speaks for himself: it is why he is written is such a shallow way. 

On 1/2/2018 at 1:12 PM, maxal said:

I would love to head Brandon Sanderson comments on the matter. My thoughts are he would disagree with the critics.

Bolding mine, again, to point out the phrases that caught my eye in writing the response.

You spoke of beta readers not pointing out where Adolin was lacking in Oathbringer, but many betas were outspoken on Adolin's behalf, specifically requesting that he needed more viewpoints. Adolin wasn't ignored by the beta team and his plot wasn't missed. It was something commented on and improved, just not brought to the level that you would have wanted. You also spoke of wanting to see Brandon's responses to critics and wondering what his thoughts were on the contention, and I felt the Reddit quote did that as well, acknowledging that there was contention over the plot, but stating that he didn't feel it was flawed and was, in fact, very pleased with how it turned out.

That's why I added the response I did. Not to shut you down but to answer some of the questions you'd been asking and add more information on topics you were discussing.

 

 

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16 minutes ago, maxal said:

@Chaos and @FeatherWriter

Why does it bother you so much there are readers which believe some story arcs could have been done better? Shouldn't we be allowed to have this discussion, within an appropriate thread, without being told by moderation/beta readers we shouldn't be having it? Because your posts oddly sounds like interventions made to say there are topics we can discussed and there are topics we can't discussed.

@Chaos: I believe I am mature enough to know when my point is made and when my contribution exceeds the pay-off to the point where I may feel to go see elsewhere if I am still wanted. Please be aware of how this post would read like had it been written by anyone else.

Nobody attacked the work of the beta readers within this thread: myself included. I have stated on numerous occasions knowing some of the points I have brought forward have been brought forward too during the editing process. I am more than well enough with everything single word you are saying and, if you read my posts, you will find it is indeed the case. 

My perspective is if beta readers input was needed to add more of the little sparse Adolin we got in OB, then the situation does not bode well for those readers having loved the character. It means what the author has initially planned was even more under-whelming then what we got. You also need to know this has been one of the most talked about topic since the release of WoR: the minute those readers find it under-whelming, then yes, discontent discussion was bond to happen. And yes, people are going to ask what went wrong. There was so much hype and anticipation for those arcs, some of us cannot fathom the final product didn't manage to live up to it, so yes, the editing process will end up being criticized be it fairly or not. The fact half the beta readers thought the criticized story arcs were fine as they were and they loved other aspects of the book is not going to change a thing: some readers still feel unsatisfied with this book, be it for the romance, for Adolin or for other narrative aspects.

I do personally feel we should be allowed to state what we personally feel are problems within this book. We all love Brandon Sanderson, but some of us were disappointed by OB. We are fans too, we are important too. Our voice may not matter "as much as others", but I do think it deserves a channel to be heard, as long as it remains respectful and I sincerely believe it has been within recent days.

I agree with you, and am not saying you shouldn't continue talking. I'm not making an edict, I just am worried that other voices haven't gotten to say things in this thread because several voices have heavily dominated the discussion. You of course can stay and I don't want to censor anything. It is just a minor concern of mine. 

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2 minutes ago, FeatherWriter said:

Ah the curse of the moderator badge. Everything reads like an edict.

No one's shutting this topic down or saying that the discussion needs to be stopped. I'm not speaking for Chaos, but my response was meant not as a moderator shutting down discussion, but a beta reader who had insight on the process since that was a point that's been brought up. I've seen several of your responses mention early reviewers not having done enough for Adolin, and as one of them, came to give my perspective on that topic. 

I appreciate the more in depth beta perspective on the Adolin discussion, thanks for providing that. Since the shardcast topic on "triangle that was not a triangle", I've been mulling over some deep problems I have with some of the arguments made that are "pro take the conclusion at face value". I personally think some convincing arguments can be made on why taking the romance arc at face value can be objectively considered bad writing. Time is always a problem, but I feel more compelled every day to move up my efforts in writing a post about it...

4 minutes ago, Kogiopsis said:

I mean, you've gotta be aware of the irony of insisting that, because a book was not what you specifically expected, it is evidence of shoddy work in the writing/editing process... especially when your platform for said declaration is the official fan forum for the author.  There's criticism and critique, and then there's pages upon pages of griping.

Anyway, I'm gonna go back to observing this thread from the nosebleed seats with popcorn in hand.  Just wanted to point out that if you're really that unhappy with the book, maybe you should read something you enjoy more instead.

When the "how" of an arc turned out can be considered bad writing from a literary perspective, then yes, I think the writing and editing process is subject to critique on that front. Yes, there has been a fair bit of, dare I say it, despondent and whining posts in this thread bemoaning what could have been, and I have been a contributor to that. But there has also been a lot of good analysis, theorizing, and writing critique going on, that you comment seems to be so dismissive of by boiling it all down to just "griping". But please stick around, because who knows, maybe you'll be the next convert ;)

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As Kogi is one of the founding captains of the Kalarin ship, I doubt you'll see her hopping over anytime soon.

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Posted (edited)

1 hour ago, FeatherWriter said:

The romantic angle between Shallan/Adolin/Kaladin was tweaked as I more and more referenced the idea that two different personalities of Shallan's were in love with two different people. IE--moving it further away from a love triangle, and instead showing more clearly that that Shallan was splitting further into multiple people, with different life goals.

This quote from Sanderson has bothered me a lot for some time. I'll try to explain why.

Just focus on "life goals." I thought Shallan's entire arc in OB was that she could not figure out what her life goals were. We were told repeatedly that Shallan did not know what she wanted; she wasn't even interested in scholarship anymore. So how am I supposed to believe Adolin is a choice for Shallan in line with her life goals when she doesn't have any? If Sanderson had established Shallan's life goals and shown how Adolin matched her goals that would have been meaningful, that would have shown impressive maturity. But the ending was so rushed. We didn't get any internal reflection from Shallan just boom married. We also got Shallan being relieved that she was not queen. I believe this is the first time this has ever crossed her mind despite knowing Adolin was in line for the throne. We also got Shallan suddenly willing to be Jasnah's ward. Last we knew, Shallan was desperately unhappy as Jasnah's ward. Then, with no warning, Shallan is desperate for Jasnah to take her back. Why? Sanderson reverses Shallan's every decision so she ends OB in the same place as the end of WOR and he doesn't justify it.  

Also, how is Kaladin brooding a match for Veil's life goals? Both Veil and Shallan seem aimless. They both lack  focus. This quote from Sanderson implies a maturity in Shallan that we have not seen.

 

ETA What is Kalarin?

 

 

Edited by wotbibliophile
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41 minutes ago, DeployParachute said:

When the "how" of an arc turned out can be considered bad writing from a literary perspective, then yes, I think the writing and editing process is subject to critique on that front. Yes, there has been a fair bit of, dare I say it, despondent and whining posts in this thread bemoaning what could have been, and I have been a contributor to that. But there has also been a lot of good analysis, theorizing, and writing critique going on, that you comment seems to be so dismissive of by boiling it all down to just "griping". But please stick around, because who knows, maybe you'll be the next convert ;)

I mean, the 'griping' comment was aimed at Maxal, but if you'd like to be included you may consider yourself so.

And as for converting me... you all know the Tumblr fandom is literally 5 years ahead of you on this, right?  We've discussed, debated, and decided... and we know how to handle our OTPs not being canon with grace.  ;)  As Feather said, mine is Kaladin/Renarin, so I go into every book fully expecting my ship not to happen.  Y'all wanna talk ship disappointment?  Try not being straight.  It's a real party sometimes.

3 hours ago, wotbibliophile said:

I have been convinced that Adolin does not have strong feelings for Shallan. There were two things that convinced me (they are sort of the same thing though).

1. We get Adolin's POV where Shallan stands up straight when she sees Kaladin. Adolin admits he has noticed her looking at Kaladin before and that she seems to be interested in Kaladin and maybe has feelings for him. Adolin does not have a strong reaction to this realization he is just resigned. I expect he would have a more emotional reaction if he was more invested in Shallan and his relationship with her.

2. Adolin breaks up with Shallan (well he tries) and again we don't see that he is having an emotional reaction to their separation. He is just matter of fact. He is just matter of fact in both of these scenes.

Since I'm replying anyway, I wanted to respond to this... namely, that Adolin's calm reactions don't indicate a lack of feeling.  I love my girlfriend, but if she would be happier with someone else, I would deal with it much as Adolin tries to... because I love her, and I want her to be happy.  Mercifully that's not the case, but I don't find it at all unrealistic that deep feeling would be expressed as not pitching a fit - especially when, like Adolin, you basically expect every relationship to collapse anyway.  He's probably been bracing for this from Day One.

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31 minutes ago, Kogiopsis said:

I mean, you've gotta be aware of the irony of insisting that, because a book was not what you specifically expected, it is evidence of shoddy work in the writing/editing process... especially when your platform for said declaration is the official fan forum for the author.  There's criticism and critique, and then there's pages upon pages of griping.

Anyway, I'm gonna go back to observing this thread from the nosebleed seats with popcorn in hand.  Just wanted to point out that if you're really that unhappy with the book, maybe you should read something you enjoy more instead.

And you've got to be aware of the irony of myself being the sole participant of this thread to be interjected for my dissatisfaction over some aspects of the story when many others also had their voice be heard. We all are fans here and yes, some of us were disappointed, but we do care. If we didn't care, we wouldn't be here. Some questions are being asked, but none were asked, IMHO, in a disrespectful manner towards any of the involved parties.

Trust me, I am very aware of the difficulty to broach some topics in a manner which will be both understood and not considered as an attack. I am doing my best to phrase some concerns of mine in the manner I feel is the most appropriate. Of course, this discussion cannot please everyone, which is why it is restricted to this one thread.

29 minutes ago, FeatherWriter said:

Ah the curse of the moderator badge. Everything reads like an edict.

Ah well... curse the badge indeed: whenever a moderator enters a discussion, it is assumed there is a purpose. I misunderstood yours: please accept my apologies.

To quote myself back:

4 hours ago, maxal said:

Some readers have had the same thoughts... I, of course, do not know the exact answer (nor am I pretending to know it), but it is very easy to look back and to say our grievances might have been the by-product of the accelerated editing process, the choice of reviewers and Brandon Sanderon's very busy schedule. We however cannot know for sure this is the case... I personally found it baffling the author would purposefully choose to write such an under-whelming story arc for Adolin murdering Sadeas: I do not even understand how Brandon himself thought this was for the best, let alone the dozen of reviewers which went through this book before it got released. Mind, from what I have heard, some didn't like it, but their voice didn't end up changing much to the final product.

I have acknowledged the reviewers have had thoughts to be said onto the topics which personally bothered me. I have not put the blame onto the reviewers and I have specifically said I didn't think beta readers, specifically, had much power to change significant portion of the narrative. I have however wondered if the accelerated, out of the ordinary, alpha readers reviews had an impact on the overall process. It was a valid question to raise which wasn't meant to be disrespectful towards anyone.

So while I have said not understanding why some aspects of the story were written in ways I find so unsatisfying (which when phrased this way sounds extraordinarily vain, I do agree here, but I am not the only one having expressed those thoughts), my purpose was not to put the blame onto anyone else but myself. I have stated how I felt Brandon wrote what he believed was best and how a majority of his reviewers approved of. The fact insignificant I does not agree is completely, totally irrelevant. I have tried to make this clear, but perhaps my words failed to convey the right impressions.

My purpose was to state if I am unsatisfied about the narrative, then I am to blame for it. I created wrong expectations and while I still feel they were reasonable ones to have, they turned out not being the expectations the author wanted me to have. I ruined my enjoyment of OB because it didn't broach story aspects which were the most important to me, but perhaps not to the author and/or his team of reviewers. I never meant to say the fault was theirs, it was mine. All mine. The reason I was so adamant in trying to pass my point forward is I feared other readers would fall into the same predicament by having expectations I do not personally believe, based on my experience of expecting more/better Adolin, will pay-off. So while I do think Brandon did not write a convincing, coherent, extraordinarily good story arc for Adolin, I have also said it was his story and if this is the one he wanted to write, then there isn't much left to be discussed. The fact I didn't find it was a very good one is unlikely to change anything.

I might have, arguably, not found the right phrasing to pass my point across. Some of what I wrote was done on a tablet while supervising my son playing at the Magic Jungle at the Sky Resort, so not the ideal circumstances to write the best possible posts. This might sound like a lame excuse, but such is my reality.

38 minutes ago, FeatherWriter said:

You also spoke of wanting to see Brandon's responses to critics and wondering what his thoughts were on the contention, and I felt the Reddit quote did that as well, acknowledging that there was contention over the plot, but stating that he didn't feel it was flawed and was, in fact, very pleased with how it turned out.

I have obviously read Brandon's response on Reddit, but it did not offer the closure I needed. Arguably, it is unlikely I will ever get an answer which would satisfy me and I have acknowledged this. At this point in time, all I want to know is if what I read for Adolin is an indication of what is to come. It wasn't a story arc which satisfied me, for the numerous reasons I have mentioned, and if the future of SA is not planned to provide a "better" one, then questions needs to be raised as to my personal implication within the fandom.

54 minutes ago, Chaos said:

I agree with you, and am not saying you shouldn't continue talking. I'm not making an edict, I just am worried that other voices haven't gotten to say things in this thread because several voices have heavily dominated the discussion. You of course can stay and I don't want to censor anything. It is just a minor concern of mine. 

In all honestly, I think several voices have managed to make themselves heard: my own hasn't been the strongest one within this thread. There might be voices which refrained from engaging within this thread, this is true, but I sincerely does not believe my last few posts are the sole reason for it. If they are, then I am terribly sorry for it, it wasn't my intention. 

The question with respect to my involvement however remains valid, even if I did not like hearing it. Trust me when I say there hasn't been a day where I haven't wondered about it. It is however hard to let go of four years of involvement, to toss it apart, to rip it free as if it never meant anything: maybe it didn't meant much within the entire scheme of the Cosmere, but it mattered to me as an individual. I put a lot of myself onto those pages, it is extraordinarily hard to... let it go and just leave.

This process will be long and hard: I am trying to go through it with to the best of my abilities. Forgive me if it isn't perfect. 

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10 minutes ago, Kogiopsis said:

Since I'm replying anyway, I wanted to respond to this... namely, that Adolin's calm reactions don't indicate a lack of feeling.  I love my girlfriend, but if she would be happier with someone else, I would deal with it much as Adolin tries to... because I love her, and I want her to be happy.  Mercifully that's not the case, but I don't find it at all unrealistic that deep feeling would be expressed as not pitching a fit - especially when, like Adolin, you basically expect every relationship to collapse anyway.  He's probably been bracing for this from Day One.

Not to mention, the Kadolin was strong with this book. With as much as Adolin and Kaladin are expressing their love for each other, when Adolin starts thinking Shallan wants to choose Kaladin, his response is almost "Well I'm sad but who wouldn't choose Kaladin? Honestly, have you seen Kaladin? Kaladin is the best and also my favorite." Thank Harmony for the Kadolin ship, everyone.

 

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47 minutes ago, FeatherWriter said:

As Kogi is one of the founding captains of the Kalarin ship, I doubt you'll see her hopping over anytime soon.

 

3 minutes ago, Kogiopsis said:

I mean, the 'griping' comment was aimed at Maxal, but if you'd like to be included you may consider yourself so.

And as for converting me... you all know the Tumblr fandom is literally 5 years ahead of you on this, right?  We've discussed, debated, and decided... and we know how to handle our OTPs not being canon with grace.  ;)  As Feather said, mine is Kaladin/Renarin, so I go into every book fully expecting my ship not to happen.  Y'all wanna talk ship disappointment?  Try not being straight.  It's a real party sometimes.

Ah, I see.  Well, I think this goes to show how I have a disconnect with what the term "shipping" can mean, and how it is handled by various fandoms.  I guess I shouldn't really consider myself a shipper, because I have never based my Shalladin/Shadolin arguments on what I would "like" to happen, but have always tried (but perhaps not always successfully) to base my reasoning on what the writing itself seems to be indicating. It has been brought to my attention in the past that this is not always what Shippers do, or even care about, that sometimes, its just fun to imagine pairings that you know will never be.  That's not really my thing, but I can appreciate that others find enjoyment in it.

So...perhaps I can't touch your feelings about your one and true Ship, but maybe your impressions on the real direction of this romantic narrative can be swayed? Or not :P 

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21 minutes ago, Kogiopsis said:

Since I'm replying anyway, I wanted to respond to this... namely, that Adolin's calm reactions don't indicate a lack of feeling.  I love my girlfriend, but if she would be happier with someone else, I would deal with it much as Adolin tries to... because I love her, and I want her to be happy.  Mercifully that's not the case, but I don't find it at all unrealistic that deep feeling would be expressed as not pitching a fit - especially when, like Adolin, you basically expect every relationship to collapse anyway.  He's probably been bracing for this from Day One.

I did think about this but still decided Adolin does not have strong feelings for Shallan. While I agree the best reaction is not pitching a fit we are in Adolin's head when he starts thinking Shallan would rather be with Kaladin. He has zero emotional reaction to this. Forget pitching a fit, he should feel something even if he refrains from punching people. We are in his head and he is not Shallan whatever he is feeling is something I think we the reader would be aware of.

 

10 minutes ago, FeatherWriter said:

Not to mention, the Kadolin was strong with this book. With as much as Adolin and Kaladin are expressing their love for each other, when Adolin starts thinking Shallan wants to choose Kaladin, his response is almost "Well I'm sad but who wouldn't choose Kaladin? Honestly, have you seen Kaladin? Kaladin is the best and also my favorite." Thank Harmony for the Kadolin ship, everyone.

:wub:  I can get behind this.

 

My dream ships in order of preference.

1st place: Kaladin and Shallan (I have just about lost hope here)

2nd place: Kaladin and Adolin (wow they would be great together. I think it was this thread that made me think of it but they would be even better than Kaladin and Shallan. At the very least you wouldn't have to worry about multiple personalities.)

3rd place: (I don't mean this very seriously but as the title suggests) Adolin-Shallan-Kaladin (these crazy kids would be wild. I think they could make it work. They are all such caring individuals.)

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I have been called forth from the abyss because there are things which need to be brought to light.

Or rather, to point out something important to this discussion (as it's ventured off into this direction). I'm a big Adolin fan, I was looking forward to his arc in this book (what will happen to Adolin, will he be exiled or hung for his crimes???), but I, perhaps surprisingly, wasn't disappointed. You do not speak for all Adolin fans, @maxal. Many from tumblr liked Adolin's arc, even though it was "sparse" and less important than others in this book...but I do not believe it was, actually. In fact, I think how Brandon played it was brilliant and unexpected and good, and so do many other Adolin fans...

There is one major consequence a lot of people seem to have forgotten: the battle of Thaylen wouldn't have gone so badly had Adolin not murdered Sadeas. If he hadn't, it's far less likely that the Sadeas troops would've been sent to Thaylen City (to help in its reconstruction) and Amaram would've been influenced into wanting revenge for Sadeas' death. Nearly loosing a battle is a major consequence. No, Adolin didn't experience it directly, but I expect in the next book, he will yet be dealing with the repercussions of murdering Sadeas. There are still two more books in the first set of five...I expect that like Shallan's split personalities, Kaladin's depression, and Dalinar's compulsions (alcoholism, most likely), Adolin won't escape this plotpoint. Ialai won't let him. But it's just one of those threads which isn't over yet and probably should not be over in one book. However, Oathbringer would not BE the book it IS if Adolin had not murdered Sadeas, even though the consequences of his actions have not effected him directly yet (though they almost did, everything was still nearly lost in the Batte of Thaylen City including his dad who was nearly Odium's Champion, you know...that seems like consequences to me, at least).

At the end of the day, however, this is Dalinar's book. Dalinar accepting that Adolin was not the man he thought he was, but still a man on his own journey (who like Dalinar, could overcome his past mistakes) is a major development for Dalinar, too. I think the Dalinar of WoK would've felt he needed to exile or hang or somehow severely punish Adolin for his crimes, but the Dalinar at the end of Oathbringer understands what it is like to be imperfect and broken, and not live up to one's ideas, but being allowed to become a better man despite the man that he used to be. Thus, Dalinar wants this kind of redemption arc for his son too, and it makes since that Dalinar would take a third option instead and not punish Adolin for his actions because of the man Dalinar is becoming...

In short, though (and to get off this tangent), there are a lot of Adolin-fans who saw this arc as satisfactory. A character doesn't have to have a ton of screen time (or PoVs, since Adolin pretty much shows up in every major arc in the book and probably is in it as much as he's in WoK and WoR) to make good use of the screen time...but at the end of the day, this book is Brandon's book. Not ours. We do not get to dictate the story he chooses to tell just because we're unhappy with some the results...

---

Anyway, to get back on topic. There are many who were happy to see how his relationship developed with Shallan as well. Like when he shows that he cares about her in rather selfless ways (asking about her cycle, his concern about her well-being on the ship in the CR, and he LISTENS to her and her problems on the ship, too) were all points in his favor, if you ask me. They worked to show that Adolin cared deeply for Shallan as a person, despite her faults and her dissociative tendencies. I was honestly satisfied with this romance, probably because it's my favored ship and I liked how Brandon dealt with it.

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Posted (edited)

22 minutes ago, Jazzy Kandra said:

Anyway, to get back on topic. There are many who were happy to see how his relationship developed with Shallan as well. Like when he shows that he cares about her in rather selfless ways (asking about her cycle, his concern about her well-being on the ship in the CR, and he LISTENS to her and her problems on the ship, too) were all points in his favor, if you ask me. They worked to show that Adolin cared deeply for Shallan as a person, despite her faults and her dissociative tendencies. I was honestly satisfied with this romance, probably because it's my favored ship and I liked how Brandon dealt with it.

So honest question here:  does it really not bother you or others like you who were satisfied with the romance ending in OB that Shallan's feelings for Kaladin weren't addressed before deciding to go ahead with her marriage to Adolin?

She basically tells Adolin: Veil has a physical attraction to Kaladin, but you need not worry about that.  And there is plenty of textual evidence that Shallan's feelings for Kaladin are a bit beyond the physical.  Or do we honestly agree that Kaladin equates to "a terrible taste in men" for Alethi or Veden sensibilities?  She tells Adolin why she likes HIM, but unfortunately, she stops there, and doesn't address the non physical attractions she (or Veil) has for Kaladin.  Its just shoved off to the side, and dismissed by her as unimportant, and she works very hard to convince Adolin of this.  I feel bad for Adolin, that they couldn't have an honest conversation about those feelings Shallan has, because maybe they could have worked it out together, and been a stronger couple and then subsequent husband/wife after.  Shallan hid truths about her feelings for Kaladin from Adolin about as effectively as she does from herself.  And this concerns me, because Adolin deserves better than that.

Edited by DeployParachute
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1 minute ago, DeployParachute said:

So honest question here:  does it really not bother you or others like you who were satisfied with the romance ending in OB that Shallan's feelings for Kaladin weren't addressed before deciding to go ahead with her marriage to Adolin?

What do you mean by "weren't addressed"? Shallan and Adolin have a conversation where Adolin's stunned that she doesn't want Kaladin and Shallan talks about how she was more physically attracted to him but doesn't think he's the right choice for her, and she's choosing Adolin. It's one of my favorite conversations in the book.

Quote

“I have to say this, Shallan. Please.” He stood up tall, stiff. “I’m going to let him have you.”

She blinked. “Let him have me.”

“I’m holding you back,” Adolin said. “I see the way you two look at each other. I don’t want you to keep forcing yourself to spend time with me because you feel sorry for me.”

Storms. Now he’s trying to ruin it! “No,” Shallan said. “First off, you don’t get to treat me like some kind of prize. You don’t decide who gets me.”

“I’m not trying to . . .” He took another deep breath. “Look, this is hard for me, Shallan. I’m trying to do the right thing. Don’t make it harder.”

“I don’t get a choice?”

“You’ve made your choice. I see how you look at him.”

“I’m an artist, Adolin. I appreciate a nice picture when I see one. Doesn’t mean I want to pull it off the hook and go get intimate.”

Kaladin landed on a roof in the distance, still looking the other way. Adolin waved toward him. “Shallan. He can literally fly.”

“Oh? And is that what women are supposed to seek in a mate? Is it in the Polite Lady’s Handbook to Courtship and Family? The Bekenah edition, maybe? ‘Ladies, you can’t possibly marry a man if he can’t fly.’ Never mind if the other option is as handsome as sin, kind to everyone he meets regardless of their station, passionate about his art, and genuinely humble in the weirdest, most confident way. Never mind if he actually seems to get you, and remarkably listens to your problems, encouraging you to be you—not to hide yourself away. Never mind if being near him makes you want to rip his shirt off and push him into the nearest alleyway, then kiss him until he can’t breathe anymore. If he can’t fly, then well, you just have to call it off!”

She paused for breath, gasping.

“And . . .” Adolin said. “That guy is . . . me?”

“You are such a fool.” She grabbed his ripped coat and pulled him into a kiss, passionspren crystallizing in the air around them. The warmth of the kiss did more for her than the tea ever could. It made her bubble and boil inside. Stormlight was nice, but this . . . this was an energy that made it dun by comparison.

Storms, she loved this man.

When she let him out of the kiss, he grabbed her and pulled her close, breathing heavily.

--OB Ch. 121

I see, discussion of her thing for Kaladin, I see Shallan explaining why she loves Adolin, and I see Adolin saying how hard it is for him to step aside, when he thinks that's what she wants even though he loves her, and I see him physically reciprocating her affection in the kiss, wanting to be close after that. 

I mean, that convo is the deal-sealer for me. Choice made, Shadolin not Shalladin, and I think she picked the healthier of the two options, as well. The one that she matches with better.

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17 minutes ago, FeatherWriter said:

Not to mention, the Kadolin was strong with this book. With as much as Adolin and Kaladin are expressing their love for each other, when Adolin starts thinking Shallan wants to choose Kaladin, his response is almost "Well I'm sad but who wouldn't choose Kaladin? Honestly, have you seen Kaladin? Kaladin is the best and also my favorite." Thank Harmony for the Kadolin ship, everyone.

Wow, this discussion (chastisement?) turns into love of gay romance and I barely have time to respond!  If anyone has the talent to write a suitably smutty Kadolin fan fic please send it my wayyyyyy. I’ve found some cute ones, but nothing which really, um, gets down to it enough.

@Kogiopsis if you’ve got any good fanfic for Kalarin I’d love those recs too. I don’t see Renarin as the most sexual of characters, but I think post-OB there’s more to go on. (No touching! Oh touching...)

There has been nothing which has disappointed me more in SA then when after reading WoR I found out Brandon’s religious views and read the WoBs about no gay viewpoint characters. Kadolin is the best developed romance for me (but I’m highly, highly biased.) It’ll sadly never happen, but damnation we got a lotttttt to “ponder” in OB. Holy storms, Adolin’s “he’d never button that coat over his broad chest” line is straight out of a romance novel.

But on the actual subject, as I think everyone knows, I agree with @DeployParachute that my heart ship (Kadolin) is totally seperate from where I think Brandon is heading with this. 

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2 minutes ago, Dreamstorm said:

Wow, this discussion (chastisement?) turns into love of gay romance and I barely have time to respond!  If anyone has the talent to write a suitably smutty Kadolin fan fic please send it my wayyyyyy. I’ve found some cute ones, but nothing which really, um, gets down to it enough.

@Kogiopsis if you’ve got any good fanfic for Kalarin I’d love those recs too. I don’t see Renarin as the most sexual of characters, but I think post-OB there’s more to go on. (No touching! Oh touching...)

There has been nothing which has disappointed me more in SA then when after reading WoR I found out Brandon’s religious views and read the WoBs about no gay viewpoint characters. Kadolin is the best developed romance for me (but I’m highly, highly biased.) It’ll sadly never happen, but damnation we got a lotttttt to “ponder” in OB. Holy storms, Adolin’s “he’d never button that coat over his broad chest” line is straight out of a romance novel.

But on the actual subject, as I think everyone knows, I agree with @DeployParachute that my heart ship (Kadolin) is totally seperate from where I think Brandon is heading with this. 

Both Kogi and I have written quite a bit of Kalarin, and there's others who have as well. AO3 lists 28 Kalarin fics. A large chunk of them either written to Kogi or gifted to her. (I wasn't kidding about her being the captain.) Personally I'm quite fond of this one of Kogi's, which was written before WoR came out. I'll self-plug my fluffy Kalarin wine tasting fic too while I'm at it.

As for Kadolin, there's 29 and yes, several of them are explicit. I'll let you scroll through the tag and filter the ratings yourself on that one. I'm sure there's other fics on tumblr or fanfiction.net, but I usually just stick with AO3 because it's so easy to find things.

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Posted (edited)

1 hour ago, FeatherWriter said:

What do you mean by "weren't addressed"? Shallan and Adolin have a conversation where Adolin's stunned that she doesn't want Kaladin and Shallan talks about how she was more physically attracted to him but doesn't think he's the right choice for her, and she's choosing Adolin. It's one of my favorite conversations in the book.

I see, discussion of her thing for Kaladin, I see Shallan explaining why she loves Adolin, and I see Adolin saying how hard it is for him to step aside, when he thinks that's what she wants even though he loves her, and I see him physically reciprocating her affection in the kiss, wanting to be close after that. 

I mean, that convo is the deal-sealer for me. Choice made, Shadolin not Shalladin, and I think she picked the healthier of the two options, as well. The one that she matches with better.

so let's focus on the real "meat" of that scene:

Quote

“Oh? And is that what women are supposed to seek in a mate? Is it in the Polite Lady’s Handbook to Courtship and Family? The Bekenah edition, maybe? ‘Ladies, you can’t possibly marry a man if he can’t fly.’ Never mind if the other option is as handsome as sin, kind to everyone he meets regardless of their station, passionate about his art, and genuinely humble in the weirdest, most confident way. Never mind if he actually seems to get you, and remarkably listens to your problems, encouraging you to be you—not to hide yourself away. Never mind if being near him makes you want to rip his shirt off and push him into the nearest alleyway, then kiss him until he can’t breathe anymore. If he can’t fly, then well, you just have to call it off!”

So here, we have Shallan telling Adolin all of the positive things that she likes about him, but none of the things that she has admitted to herself that she doesn't like (his mental directness, his lack of brilliance, etc), and simultaneously tells Adolin of only the things she dislikes about Kaladin, and none of the things that she likes about him.  This is what I would expect of someone who is desperately trying to sway someone's opinion in a very speedy fashion.  She needs him to change his mind, because he is the only thing that seems to be able to anchor the "her" that she thinks she is.  She is dependent upon him, as she had just discovered only a scene before, and so she needs to convince him, it is imperative to her maintaining her emotional stasis.  I'm not saying that the things she's saying about Adolin aren't real, or she doesn't mean them.  I'm saying she's not giving Adolin the whole truth, so that he can make an informed decision.  Heck, Shallan doesn't even recognize the whole truth, so how can she communicate it to him. 

 Kaladin and Shallan's romantic arc has been round after round of: push it down push it down push it down, don't talk about it, don't think about it, don't be honest about anything.  A series of poorly timed interactions, and misunderstandings.  Suppression is not a way forward for a happy Adolin and Shallan, and there is still a lot of suppression going on on Shallan's part. 

Repeat conclusion from my edited post above:

She basically tells Adolin: Veil has a physical attraction to Kaladin, but you need not worry about that.  And there is plenty of textual evidence that Shallan's feelings for Kaladin are a bit beyond the physical.  Or do we honestly agree that Kaladin equates to "a terrible taste in men" for Alethi or Veden sensibilities?  She tells Adolin why she likes HIM, but unfortunately, she stops there, and doesn't address the non physical attractions she (or Veil) has for Kaladin.  Its just shoved off to the side, and dismissed by her as unimportant, and she works very hard to convince Adolin of this.  I feel bad for Adolin, that they couldn't have an honest conversation about those feelings Shallan has, because maybe they could have worked it out together, and been a stronger couple and then subsequent husband/wife after.  Shallan hid truths about her feelings for Kaladin from Adolin about as effectively as she does from herself.  And this concerns me, because Adolin deserves better than that.

@FeatherWriter

Sorry for the multi-edits, trying to keep number of repeat posts down...

Further quoting on Shallan in full on "convince Adolin mode", in the same scene after the lines quoted above...
 

Quote

"I will admit to you, in the interest of full honesty, that Veil did have a tendency to fawn over Kaladin Stormblessed.  She has terrible taste in men, and I've convinced her to fall in line."

"That's worrisome, Shallan."

"I won't let her act on it.  I promise."

"I didn't mean that," Adolin said.  "I meant ... you, Shallan.  Becoming other people."

"We're all different people at different times.  Remeber?"

"Not the same way as you."

"I know," she said.  "But I ... I think I've stopped leaking into new personas.  Three for now." She turned around, smiling at him, his hands still around her waist.  "How do you like that though? Three betrotheds instead of one.  Some men drool over the idea of such debauchery.  If you wanted, I could be practically anyone."

Bold emphasis mine.

She hasn't convince Veil or Radiant to fall in line.  She had to force them to the back.  She FORCED them down, and lied to herself that they were NOT her.  Even though we have WoB that in the spiritual realm, all three would be one.  So she lies to Adolin again, to convince him, to wave away his concerns.  Still, Adolin continues to resist, so she switches tactics:  Wouldn't it be kind of...hot?  Me being all these people.  you could have all these women, I could be ANYONE for you.  Adolin is starting to waver, but still resists.  Finally, Shallan's last move:

Quote

"But that's the thing, Shallan.  I don't want anyone.  I want you."

"That might be the hardest one.  But I think I can do it, Adolin.  With some help, maybe?"

Well, how could Adolin, being who he is, resist such a plea from his betrothed.  Help me, Ado Lin Kenobi.  You're my only hope.  I would believe this were more sincere, if she hadn't spent the last couple of paragraphs continuing to lie to him, to entice him, to assuage his very real concerns that CANNOT be addressed in a mere handful of pages of text, and absolutely SHOULD be addressed before the two commit to each other in the most binding form possible: marriage.  

Does none of this interpretation carry any weight with you at all?  None of how Shallan handled this concerned you?

Edited by DeployParachute
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@FeatherWriter Thanks for that quote.  I haven't read that scene since I finished OB. Adolin is much more emotional than I remembered. I think I forgot because Shallan is immediately side tracked by the "prize" discussion. Now I am conflicted because we still don't get much of a reaction in Adolin's POV. His reaction when he breaks up with Shallan could have as much to do with another failed relationship as with Shallan herself.

I am still mostly frustrated by this scene, not satisfied. We start with Veil and Radiant wanting to be with Kaladin then Shallan stopping them because she wants to be with Adolin because "He knows me." :rolleyes:  Then we get the scene where Adolin believes Shallan has made her choice (and her choice was Kaladin.) But Shallan immediately refutes that idea. This is one of the only things we have an Adolin POV about; that Shallan is making eyes at Kaladin so much that Adolin believes she prefers Kaladin. If Adolin is wrong about this and Shallan insists he is then what is he right about? What does he know about Shallan that makes her decide she should be with him? If it is just that he knows what she looks like then Shallan could say that about anyone. If it is that he listens to her then that is a little better but I think it is more that Shallan can get away with lying to him.

 

34 minutes ago, FeatherWriter said:

“I’m an artist, Adolin. I appreciate a nice picture when I see one. Doesn’t mean I want to pull it off the hook and go get intimate.”

I think this is an outright lie. Shallan compares Adolin to a sculpture multiple times. She compares Kaladin to the wind (duh - maybe she's not as creative as she thinks she is.) In the chasm scene Kaladin calls her out for her lie about why she wanted to be out on the Shattered Plains. Shallan is relieved that Adolin had not thought of this. She is relieved she was able to manipulate him. I think this is still the case at the end of OB.

@DeployParachute said it well.

21 minutes ago, DeployParachute said:

She basically tells Adolin: Veil has a physical attraction to Kaladin, but you need not worry about that.  And there is plenty of textual evidence that Shallan's feelings for Kaladin are a bit beyond the physical.  Or do we honestly agree that Kaladin equates to "a terrible taste in men" for Alethi or Veden sensibilities?  She tells Adolin why she likes HIM, but unfortunately, she stops there, and doesn't address the non physical attractions she (or Veil) has for Kaladin.  Its just shoved off to the side, and dismissed by her as unimportant, and she works very hard to convince Adolin of this.  I feel bad for Adolin, that they couldn't have an honest conversation about those feelings Shallan has, because maybe they could have worked it out together, and been a stronger couple and then subsequent husband/wife after.  Shallan hid truths about her feelings for Kaladin from Adolin about as effectively as she does from herself.  And this concerns me, because Adolin deserves better than that

 

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Posted (edited)

I think the bottom line is:

Shallan doesn't want to be herself anymore, because she thinks she's a monster for killing her mother and thinks the downfall of the Davar House is her fault.

So she fractures herself into Radiant, Veil and whatever then is left of Shallan.

Shallan has conflicting feelings for both Kaladin and Adolin (yes, the root of these feeling is still Shallan). Jasnah reminds her of her duty to marry Adolin. Shallan represses any feelings for Kaladin - her speciality!

Her other personalities get more independent and begin to take over. Her feelings for Kaladin reemerge in Veil - note how they are quite the exact resemblence of how Shallan saw him after the chasm (passionate eys, determined etc.)

Switching chaos ensues.

Kaladin doesn't see it.

Adolin does.

Shallan wants confirmation, that Veil and Radiant are different people from her, because all together she would be the Shallan that she hates again.

Adolin gives her that confirmation.

So it is imperative for her, that they stay together. Regardless of how Adolin feels about it.

Is it love? No, more necessity.

I'm actually quite confident, that if Kaladin were the one who noticed her switching, that she would have chosen Kaladin.

Adolin cares about Shallan, yes, but he cares that much about literally anyone close to him. Kaladin for instance. I don't see that as a clear sign of deep love.

Edited by SLNC
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6 minutes ago, SLNC said:

I think the bottom line is:

Shallan doesn't want to be herself anymore, because she thinks she's a monster for killing her mother and thinks the downfall of the Davar House is her fault.

So she fractures herself into Radiant, Veil and whatever then is left of Shallan.

Shallan has conflicting feelings for both Kaladin and Adolin (yes, the root of these feeling is still Shallan). Jasnah reminds her of her duty to marry Adolin. Shallan represses any feelings for Kaladin - her speciality!

Her other personalities get more independent and begin to take over. Her feelings for Kaladin reemerge in Veil - note how they are quite the exact resemblence of how Shallan saw him after the chasm (passionate eys, determined etc.)

Switching chaos ensues.

Kaladin doesn't see it.

Adolin does.

Shallan wants confirmation, that Veil and Radiant are different people from her, because all together she would be the Shallan that she hates again.

Adolin gives her that confirmation.

So it is imperative for her, that they stay together. Regardless of how Adolin feels about it.

Much more succinct than my continued edits to my single post above.  Thanks.

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I mean, at this point, I'm aware of y'all's views on the matter and I've stated mine in long enough form as well. I'd just be repeating myself if I actually fell back into the Shaladin vs Shadolin debate, so I won't do so. I disagree with the interpretations regarding Shallan's personalities and what it means for Adolin vs what it means for Kaladin. I thought the choosing scene hit all the points it needed to and satisfactorily wrapped up this plot thread for the moment. Y'all didn't think that. That's all there is to it.

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