[OB] Adolin-Shallan-Kaladin Discussion

[Guest]

40 minutes ago, Mistbornwithakitty said:

Wow.  That was a mouthful.  Hope you're alive after reading this!

Oh, that is absolutely fine  I'm used to seeing long posts on here. I myself am guilty of that.

A few things I want to address though:

40 minutes ago, Mistbornwithakitty said:

Adolin is the guy that makes her feel like the best version of herself;

40 minutes ago, Mistbornwithakitty said:

I think Shallan needs to have someone who drags her back into herself until she can learn to do it on her own.  Right now she's being unhealthy with her escapism, but she'll learn to deal with the stress eventually.

Does he? Is that Shallan, which is almost unable to function without her personas, really the best version of Shallan? I think the best version of Shallan would be all of them together. Shallan being how she was in the chasms. Confident and brave. This isn't just escapism... She needs her personas to function. I only can see that as regression and I see not how Adolin is help her in any way to better that. In fact, by treating Veil as completely different, he is actually reinforcing Shallan's claim, that her personas are different.

I really think, that Veil and Radiant are intricate parts of Shallan. Facets of her personality and not really personas. They manifest as that, but are deeply rooted in Shallan. Shallan hates herself, so she fractured herself, so she doesn't have to be herself anymore. If that makes sense.

Adolin never saw these facets of Shallan during their courting, so he more easily differentiates between them. Kaladin didn't notice, something Shallan actually kinda blames him for, because he knew these facets. He knew how confident and bold Shallan could be, so he didn't get her issues, but the question is? What will be better for Shallan in the long run? Using Adolin to anchor the Shallan persona, which is a far cry from the Shallan we learnt of in WoR, or accepting Veil and Radiant as parts of herself, essentially reintegrating them into one Shallan personality. I lean to option two.

Whew, longer than I wanted this to be. Sorry!

40 minutes ago, Mistbornwithakitty said:

Yet they still didn't sit down and communicate anything of real value this book.

Sadly, they didn't. I understand Kaladin's stance though. In his eyes, Shallan is off-limits because Adolin is courting her. We men tend to get stupidly territorial when it comes to women...

Edited January 2, 2018 by SLNC

[analyticaposteriori]

Yeah, I certainly wouldn't call maskShallan the best version of herself. She may consider herself that at the moment but I think it's safe to say that she is wrong.

She has stripped so much of herself away and locked it up in boxes that the only thing that remains is a barren husk. Heck, she's starting to remind me of Kvothe. All she needs is a big, fat chest in her closet.

Edited January 3, 2018 by analyticaposteriori

[MonsterMetroid]

2 hours ago, wotbibliophile said:

ETA: I feel really ridiculous that I wrote this. I do not want to read explicit sex scenes at all. They almost always make me uncomfortable. It is just that Sanderson's male characters seem a bit inhuman to me. I just need one line really that the men are interested. 

GOTCHA!!! I misunderstood you originally.

ok now that you lay it out... hmm it seems like he is almost avoiding the trope that "all men think about is sex" to the opposite extreme. I never noticed that before! I did always infered that dalinars desires (especially blackthorne dalinar) were a bit less about marriage but marriage is the custom kind of like old catholic church.

3 hours ago, SLNC said:

So. Much. Agreement.

In that scene, we have seen what Shallan could be. I think, that she was on the way there, but yeah, that Fourth Ideal hit her hard. 

2 hours ago, maxal said:

Among those are Adolin killing Sadeas, Helaran and the romance.

yeah that fourth ideal and now the truth about Helaran has really given her a lot she doesn't want to think about

She doesnt even allow her self time to think about it shoving it somewhere else in her psych just like her parents murders. This is why I think Helaran isnt over yet.

Quote

The rest of them had settled into a group of chairs except for Kaladin, who stood leaning against the wall. Looming like a thundercloud. He had killed Helaran, her brother. The emotion of that peeked out, but Shallan smothered it, stuffing it into the back of her mind. Kaladin wasnt to be blamed for that. He'd just been defending his brightlord.

Ch. 39 Notes

That and I just noticed on my reread that Shallan starts lying to herself to rationalize things with Jasnah

This is where she tells herself that veil is different from her. This is where she accepts the lie.

So it seems like its a combination of things that Shallan can't or doesn't want to confront... at least not yet

 

[Dreamstorm]

15 hours ago, maxal said:

So yes, some things will be better done, more completed and feel more satisfying with book 4: world-building, probably Shallan's personality issue, Kaladin, but honestly hoping Brandon will rescue Adolin's character, at this point in time, is a road paved with good intentions. It is unlikely to happen.

I appreciate your optimist, but I have been there. If OB didn't serve as a pretext to write a more developed Adolin, after the ending he got in WoR, then how can we hope for more in book 4, considering he has been shoe-horned as the Highprince?

I know we're coming at this from different sides, but to the outside observer, Adolin's life just got more perfect in OB - married to his dream girl (who happens to be one of the most important woman in the world), becoming highprince and finally stepping out of his father's shadow to be the amazing ruler he was destined to be.  He's supposed to be happy, happy, happy.  His life is great!  But we know differently... Adolin doesn't want to be highprince.  He's at some point soon going to find out his father killed his mother.  He married his wife out of duty rather than love.  (I know you disagree with that one - I'll discuss it below - but it comes into play in how I see possible character development.)  He killed a highprince; something which isn't general knowledge and which he is constantly thinking about, even though everyone seems to be telling him its a good thing (either because they think it's a good thing Sadeas is dead in general or because they don't care Adolin did it, like Shallan), the one exception being Dalinar, and he doesn't care how Adolin feels, only the political repercussions.  He is one of the only regular people in a family of Radiants.  He's in love with his best friend.   I think this leaves a lot of room for interpersonal development, in the contrast between how the world sees Adolin and how Adolin feels inside.  I know you think Brandon just won't go there, but I will hold hope in these dark times between SA books....

15 hours ago, maxal said:

Adolin never loved any of the other girls and his lack of self-confidence made him run away from every relationship. Then he fell in love with Shallan, so he tried his best to make it work, up until he realizes, despite his best effort, he still isn't good enough, so he backs away. Shallan refuses and there was the end of this story arc.

So, I would agree with this, except I don't think Adolin is in love with Shallan.  I actually assumed he was too, since Shallan certainly talk about their relationship like he does, until I read just Adolin's point of views back-to-back.  He thinks shockingly little about Shallan, and besides a few mentions of her looking fetching (along with some of her not looking so fetching), his PoVs show scant emotion for her.  One can interpret his viewpoints and his actions differently, but on a more basic level, Adolin never thinks that he loves Shallan or tells her that he loves her.  Brandon isn't stingy about having his characters say they are in love romantically (Elend and Vin actually annoyed me with the amount it was said, ugh.)  Dalinar and Navani say they love each other.  Brandon on reddit said he was aiming for a part of Shallan to be in love with Adolin and a part of Shallan to be in love with Kaladin (he used love).  We see on the page that Adolin-loving part of Shallan say twice that she loves Adolin.  Adolin isn't an emotionally reticent guy.  If he's in love with Shallan, why isn't he saying it?  Why aren't we seeing him think it?  It's not like Brandon to be coy with this if that's what he's trying to get across.

15 hours ago, Mistbornwithakitty said:

I would absolutely love to see a twist where Kaladin and Shallan actually end up together.  I just don't think it was for the best right at the moment.  Both of them seemed to emotionally raw/walled to ever truly make a good, earnest go at a relationship.  But maybe in a book or two.......? 

This is what I would consider to be the most prominent pro-Shalladin opinion - they definitely shouldn't have gotten together at the end of OB (or anytime in the near future in-world), but this is where we're headed eventually   (Also, long posts are standard on this thread.  A number of us are very guilty of this (raises hand), so welcome to the club!)

13 hours ago, MonsterMetroid said:

ok now that you lay it out... hmm it seems like he is almost avoiding the trope that "all men think about is sex" to the opposite extreme. I never noticed that before! I did always infered that dalinars desires (especially blackthorne dalinar) were a bit less about marriage but marriage is the custom kind of like old catholic church.

@wotbibliophile I loved the "thinking about sex" investigation!   Gosh, I'm such a Brandon cheerleader these days, but maybe part of the reason is to (consciously or unconsciously) give the women more agency in their sexual actions?  If the women are the ones who want to have sex, it lessens the possibility they are only doing so to satisfy their male partner.  

*******

I want to finish this with another WoB quote about the difficulty of long fantasy series's for a reader.  I will continue to cheerlead!

Quote

But the very thing that we love about fantasy in this regard also tends to present problems. We want lots of characters, but eventually this large cast gets overwhelms us and makes the books seem to drag. Personally, I think these complaints will be much lessened when some of these great series are done, and you don't have to wait years and years between volumes.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/202-barnes-and-noble-book-club-qa/#e5966

 

[maxal]

4 hours ago, Dreamstorm said:

I know we're coming at this from different sides, but to the outside observer, Adolin's life just got more perfect in OB - married to his dream girl (who happens to be one of the most important woman in the world), becoming highprince and finally stepping out of his father's shadow to be the amazing ruler he was destined to be.  He's supposed to be happy, happy, happy.  His life is great!  But we know differently... Adolin doesn't want to be highprince.  He's at some point soon going to find out his father killed his mother.  He married his wife out of duty rather than love.  (I know you disagree with that one - I'll discuss it below - but it comes into play in how I see possible character development.)  He killed a highprince; something which isn't general knowledge and which he is constantly thinking about, even though everyone seems to be telling him its a good thing (either because they think it's a good thing Sadeas is dead in general or because they don't care Adolin did it, like Shallan), the one exception being Dalinar, and he doesn't care how Adolin feels, only the political repercussions.  He is one of the only regular people in a family of Radiants.  He's in love with his best friend.   I think this leaves a lot of room for interpersonal development, in the contrast between how the world sees Adolin and how Adolin feels inside.  I know you think Brandon just won't go there, but I will hold hope in these dark times between SA books....

The problem with Adolin's character is not the impossibility to craft decent reasoning as to how his story arc could suddenly become interesting, the problem is Brandon will not allow him enough page time for this to happen. Hence, just like for WoR, readers are in danger of thinking all the nice little clues they see with Adolin may wrap around a more important character with a decent heart felt story arc. Unfortunately, Brandon will not write a better nor a more interesting Adolin: this isn't within the plan. Adolin will never get a bigger story arc and there is only so much the author can cramp into 20K words.

No amount of talking will ever change Brandon's mind.

4 hours ago, Dreamstorm said:

So, I would agree with this, except I don't think Adolin is in love with Shallan.  I actually assumed he was too, since Shallan certainly talk about their relationship like he does, until I read just Adolin's point of views back-to-back.  He thinks shockingly little about Shallan, and besides a few mentions of her looking fetching (along with some of her not looking so fetching), his PoVs show scant emotion for her.  One can interpret his viewpoints and his actions differently, but on a more basic level, Adolin never thinks that he loves Shallan or tells her that he loves her.  Brandon isn't stingy about having his characters say they are in love romantically (Elend and Vin actually annoyed me with the amount it was said, ugh.)  Dalinar and Navani say they love each other.  Brandon on reddit said he was aiming for a part of Shallan to be in love with Adolin and a part of Shallan to be in love with Kaladin (he used love).  We see on the page that Adolin-loving part of Shallan say twice that she loves Adolin.  Adolin isn't an emotionally reticent guy.  If he's in love with Shallan, why isn't he saying it?  Why aren't we seeing him think it?  It's not like Brandon to be coy with this if that's what he's trying to get across.

The problem I see is readers are interpreting the lack of Adolin's viewpoints as a reason to think there are thoughts he is not sharing. This isn't how Brandon writes Adolin. The reason we see no viewpoints on Adolin "loving" Shallan is not because he does not love her, it is be because the author believes there are ample clues within the book to deduce it without writing it. Adolin is seen as acting quite in love in multiple situations. Dalinar finds Adolin to be in love with Shallan. Adolin's viewpoint is not seen as important enough to be added. What was important was how Shallan and Kaladin felt: not Adolin.

All these discussions are nice and everything, but the fact remains there is no hidden mystery with Adolin. He does not have more viewpoints because Brandon doesn't think he needs them. This isn't part of so me grant master plan: Brandon does not believe in Adolin as a more prominent character. Hence, Adolin is not saying it because the story does not need him to say it: he is just not important enough for this, but readers were supposed to get he does love Shallan. 

[Prelude]

@maxal we are talking about a line here or there about Andolin’s feeling for Shallan. That’s all it would have taken for the omission not to be so glaring.  Very little effort on BS part to have done so. 

[maxal]

8 minutes ago, Prelude said:

@maxal we are talking about a line here or there about Andolin’s feeling for Shallan. That’s all it would have taken for the omission not to be so glaring.  Very little effort on BS part to have done so. 

Agree. And my position is Brandon has just not made the effort because he didn't think it was important. I have hunted for every single Adolin related WoB for the last 4 years and this is what came out of them: Brandon doesn't believes he needs to write more of Adolin. Yes, some readers disagree, but what you find missing is missing because the author doesn't think he needs to write it, not because we are supposed to read sometning into the omission. If something there is to read, then it is how unimportant Adolin is to the main narrative. 

I believe the easiest answer is the best one: Brandon wrote a bad character arc for Adolin while thinking he wrote a great one. A majority of readers are fine with, so there's to that. 

[MonsterMetroid]

Who is Andolin? sounds like an instrument or something.

49 minutes ago, maxal said:

The problem with Adolin's character is not the impossibility to craft decent reasoning as to how his story arc could suddenly become interesting, the problem is Brandon will not allow him enough page time for this to happen

I agree with this. Not that brandon doesnt want to but Adolins viewpoint doesnt offer as much as the other characters viewpoints do except for in one regard. And that being a regular guy in a Radiants world. Brandon used him in this regard in both Kolinar and Theylenah having him watch kaladin save them from boulders and jasnah kick butt.

I think Brandon would like to use him more but to keep the book short it is much more page effecient to view things from others perspectives So we see Shallan disjointed, Dalinar's inner conflict or Kaladins... kaladiness?

[Dreamstorm]

13 minutes ago, maxal said:

The problem I see is readers are interpreting the lack of Adolin's viewpoints as a reason to think there are thoughts he is not sharing. This isn't how Brandon writes Adolin. The reason we see no viewpoints on Adolin "loving" Shallan is not because he does not love her, it is be because the author believes there are ample clues within the book to deduce it without writing it. Adolin is seen as acting quite in love in multiple situations. Dalinar finds Adolin to be in love with Shallan. Adolin's viewpoint is not seen as important enough to be added. What was important was how Shallan and Kaladin felt: not Adolin.

All these discussions are nice and everything, but the fact remains there is no hidden mystery with Adolin. He does not have more viewpoints because Brandon doesn't think he needs them. This isn't part of so me grant master plan: Brandon does not believe in Adolin as a more prominent character. Hence, Adolin is not saying it because the story does not need him to say it: he is just not important enough for this, but readers were supposed to get he does love Shallan. 

I think we're going to have to agree to disagree here... but safe to say, I don't find there to be ample clues.  In fact, I don't find there to be much evidence outside of Shallan (who is our least reliable narrator and extremely biased in this regard) and sort of Kaladin (who is also biased due to his attraction to Shallan) that Adolin has much intense emotion for Shallan.  (I'm not saying he isn't fond of her, just that he's not "in love" with her, like the love we see between other Brandon characters.)  Regarding how Dalinar finds Adolin to be in love with Shallan, is there any point where he even mentions Adolin's emotions surrounding Shallan besides the below?  He mentions her in relation to being a Knight Radiant and betrothed to Adolin later in WoR and mentions the fact a son is married at the end of OB, but I don't recall he comments on the strength of Adolin's affection at any other point in time. 

Quote

Adolin seemed fonder of the young Veden woman than of any woman in the recent past.  For that reason alone, Dalinar was increasingly inclined to encourage the relationship, assuming he could ever get some straight answers out of Jah Keved about her family.  That kingdom was a mess.

WoR, Ch. 67, Spit and Bile

I know Adolin doesn't get the screen time that Shallan, Kaladin and Dalinar get, but he is the fourth most prominent viewpoint character in the series.  We see a lot of other thoughts from him - on Sadeas, on his feelings of not fitting into the Knights Radiant, on Kaladin, on Dalinar (especially in WoK), and even on Shallan early on their relationship (he list a bunch of positive traits about her after the winehouse date and tells Navani she is quite wonderful before the 4v1 duel.)  Adolin's thinking about plenty of things but he doesn't think much about his romantic relationship with our main female character?  If Adolin is to be reduced to his interactions with our main trio, his main purposes are (i) his relationship with his father and a foil to his father's "madness" in WoK, (ii) his romantic relationship with Shallan and (iii) his friendship with Kaladin.  We hear a lot from him emotion-wise about (i) and (iii) but barely anything from him on (ii)?  I just don't buy it.  Take Navani in contrast; she is in a similar position - her main purpose (so far) is her romantic relationship with one of our male leads - and in her two viewpoints (end of WoK and coalition meeting in OB - I don't think there are any others?), she is pretty overt in her feelings for Dalinar, and even when she's not gushing emotionally in her OB chapter, she starts and ends the chapter focused on Dalinar's feelings and her support of him.  That's what I feel is lacking from Adolin.  (Not completely lacking - in his first Kholinar viewpoint he mentions he spent much of the previous night fretting about Shallan's failure to return - but anything matching, let alone intensifying, those types of sentiments is lacking as we go along.)  

19 minutes ago, maxal said:

And my position is Brandon has just not made the effort because he didn't think it was important. I have hunted for every single Adolin related WoB for the last 4 years and this is what came out of them: Brandon doesn't believes he needs to write more of Adolin.

So, even if I agree with you that Brandon doesn't take Adolin as important or feel the need to develop Adolin more, we're talking about how Adolin feels about Shallan, our main female character (who got like a quarter of OB debating her own feelings for Adolin vs. Kaladin.)  I really don't buy that Brandon doesn't think Shallan's romantic relationships are important; he's simply devoted way too much page time to developing them for that to be the case.  Adolin's feelings in that relationship are vital to Shallan, even if Adolin himself is not important.

Anyway, I know we aren't going to change each other's minds here, but I think when an author phones it in for a character and makes that character really simple, things about that character are really obvious.  Like, as @Prelude mentions, you can just add a couple lines like "storms he loved that woman" or "he had never met anyone as incredible as Shallan."  That's the easy thing for an author to do.  The fact it's not really obvious (from Adolin's perspective, or from anyone's perspective other than our most unreliable narrator) to me seems like a red flag. 

[DeployParachute]

46 minutes ago, maxal said:

The problem I see is readers are interpreting the lack of Adolin's viewpoints as a reason to think there are thoughts he is not sharing. This isn't how Brandon writes Adolin. The reason we see no viewpoints on Adolin "loving" Shallan is not because he does not love her, it is be because the author believes there are ample clues within the book to deduce it without writing it. Adolin is seen as acting quite in love in multiple situations. Dalinar finds Adolin to be in love with Shallan. Adolin's viewpoint is not seen as important enough to be added. What was important was how Shallan and Kaladin felt: not Adolin.

Agreed with this. There is ample enough evidenced of Adolin's feelings being revealed during other viewpoints. I've not subscribed to the view that Adolin's love for Shallan is less than what it appears (sorry @Dreamstorm). Now the "why" he feels the way he does about Shallan seems quite shallow, and not as well explored as I would like, but I always chalked this up to the weakness of Adolin's screen time, and not because Brandon intended for us to think Adolin didn't have them. A well developed "why" the feelings are there is missing, but I think Brandon fully intended for us to believe that they are there. Another example of a "show me, don't tell me" problem present in the narrative.

[Prelude]

@maxal I see what you are saying. I would agree more if we didn’t get several viewpoint chapters from Andolin himself. I have not really  followed the WoB so I never thought of Andolin as a secondary character. As for his feelings towards Shallan well we have Shallan thinking “he thinks I’m pretty” and “ he gets me” ( which I doubt) but really nothing more. Right?  Book 4 seems like it’s going to be a pivotal book for the series. Make or Break-at least for me. 

[wotbibliophile]

Kaladin’s 4^th ideal I am sure will be covered in a future book and I expect he will reach it.

Helaran I am hopeful will be covered in a future book. Really really hopeful. Shallan seems to have to no reaction to the news but we know from her POV that she was forcefully repressing her reaction. We have Shallan being a douche to Kaladin which is probably related to the Helaran news she got. I hope we haven’t seen the last of this (I secretly hope Shallan tries to kill Kaladin. That line from the chasms about one of them feeling better if Shallan tries made me hope we would see it happen and Kaladin killing Shallan’s brother gives Shallan the perfect excuse.) @MonsterMetroid thanks for those quotes. Now I am sure the Helaran story is not done. I remembered Shallan saying Kaladin was only protecting his highlord but I didn't remember she specifically represses her feelings just before giving that lame excuse. It's lame because we see how she hates Amaram and that was when she thought he was defending his own life from an assassin. Defending your own life has to trump defending your highlord. Shallan's feelings of grief? betrayal? anger? hatred? whatever those feelings are in whatever combination they have to come out sometime.

I am trying not to hope about the romance because I was so disappointed by OB. I think there are hints it is not over though. This thread covers many but the one that convinces me is Veil. Shallan is pretending Veil has feelings for Kaladin but she does not. (To be clear I think she does have feelings for Kaladin but is pretending she does not.) This is like the forceful suppression of Helaran, this has to come up again.

@MonsterMetroid and @Dreamstorm  (Another sex digression) Both of your points are persuasive. @Dreamstorm this struck me because I immediately thought of Komarr by Lois McMaster Bujold SPOILER!!! Ekaterine is married to a man she wants to leave. She feels obligated to have sex with him and then waits for him to fall asleep and goes to the bathroom to cry. It was horrible to read. Props to Sanderson if he is avoiding this.

@analyticaposteriori Props for comparing Shallan to Kvothe. I love it.

@Mistbornwithakitty You said you thought she was on her way to thinking better of herself. Maybe Sanderson was going for this, but I am too much a pessimist to see it. I saw her collapse and flickering faces at the end of OB as the same collapse she had in Kholinar. She doesn't know who she is or who she wants to be. She thinks she is worthless. She is lost. Then she lets Adolin decide who she is (very frustrating). I don't believe she chose for herself I think she let Adolin choose for her. If Adolin likes her then she can like herself. I see this as very negative.

 

[Rainier]

32 minutes ago, wotbibliophile said:

Shallan is pretending Veil has feelings for Kaladin but she does not. (To be clear I think she does have feelings for Kaladin but is pretending she does not.) This is like the forceful suppression of Helaran, this has to come up again.

To be clear, are you saying that Veil doesn't have feelings for Kaladin? That instead it's Shallan who has the feelings but pretends that it's Veil? Something with the pronouns threw me. I'll hide some in a spoiler...

Spoiler

I think this is either trivially correct or completely wrong. Trivially correct in that yes, technically it's all one person, it's all trueShallan in the Spiritual Realm, so there's only one person who can have feelings. Completely wrong in that while she's technically one person, she's effectively three, and the one that calls herself Shallan is the one who's so excited for Adolin at the end. Then we can delve into the Veil-is-the-real-Shallan argument, which is just more confusing...

34 minutes ago, wotbibliophile said:

I saw her collapse and flickering faces at the end of OB as the same collapse she had in Kholinar. She doesn't know who she is or who she wants to be. She thinks she is worthless. She is lost. Then she lets Adolin decide who she is (very frustrating). I don't believe she chose for herself I think she let Adolin choose for her.

There are times when a cigar is just a cigar, and there are times when a cigar is a potent phallic symbol. In this case, there are times when someone's posture is just how they're sitting, and there are times when the sitting is itself a symbol.

All throughout we hear about The Girl Who Stood Up. This scene? She's seated. She's sitting down when she does the flickering of personalities and she's sitting down when Adolin recognizes her.

I sometimes think it's just wishful thinking, but there are other times when I think it feels this way on purpose in order to set expectations that will later be subverted, and the posture is the clue to watch out for that subversion.

[Mistbornwithakitty]

22 hours ago, SLNC said:

A few things I want to address though:

Does he? Is that Shallan, which is almost unable to function without her personas, really the best version of Shallan? I think the best version of Shallan would be all of them together. Shallan being how she was in the chasms. Confident and brave. This isn't just escapism... She needs her personas to function. I only can see that as regression and I see not how Adolin is help her in any way to better that. In fact, by treating Veil as completely different, he is actually reinforcing Shallan's claim, that her personas are different.

I really think, that Veil and Radiant are intricate parts of Shallan. Facets of her personality and not really personas. They manifest as that, but are deeply rooted in Shallan. Shallan hates herself, so she fractured herself, so she doesn't have to be herself anymore. If that makes sense.

Adolin never saw these facets of Shallan during their courting, so he more easily differentiates between them. Kaladin didn't notice, something Shallan actually kinda blames him for, because he knew these facets. He knew how confident and bold Shallan could be, so he didn't get her issues, but the question is? What will be better for Shallan in the long run? Using Adolin to anchor the Shallan persona, which is a far cry from the Shallan we learnt of in WoR, or accepting Veil and Radiant as parts of herself, essentially reintegrating them into one Shallan personality. I lean to option two.

Whew, longer than I wanted this to be. Sorry!

I get what you're saying.  I agree that all of Shallan's "persona's" are a part of her as a whole.  I guess I just don't see either boy as a good option for her.....she needs to know who she is right now.  I understand Adolin will encourage her to "fade" into him, but you have to admit that going with Kaladin would present dangerous problems too. 

Plot twist: she elopes with Renarian!

26 minutes ago, wotbibliophile said:

 

@Mistbornwithakitty You said you thought she was on her way to thinking better of herself. Maybe Sanderson was going for this, but I am too much a pessimist to see it. I saw her collapse and flickering faces at the end of OB as the same collapse she had in Kholinar. She doesn't know who she is or who she wants to be. She thinks she is worthless. She is lost. Then she lets Adolin decide who she is (very frustrating). I don't believe she chose for herself I think she let Adolin choose for her. If Adolin likes her then she can like herself. I see this as very negative.

 

 Hmmmmm....I don't quite agree.  I think at the end of the book when she's getting ready for her wedding, she begins to accept herself a bit.  That scene where all her personas were in agreement that "this was a good her" is the first step on an admittedly long and arduous journey....but it's a step in the right direction.  I definitely think Shallan and her Prince Charming will have trouble down the road (divorce is very possible), but for right now she's beginning accepting herself.  Yes, she's far from perfect at it.  Like any human being, she needs to change.  But in my opinion, she's headed in the right direction!          

Funny thing; the more I discuss Shallan's problems with herself/her boys, the more I realize how many of these problems I share with her.  Oi.    

[Guest]

Regarding Adolin loving/not loving Shallan:

His viewpoints indicated he doesn't really feel emotional attachment to her. He sometimes comments on her looks and actually criticizes it once in his head, but that is it.

Shallan's viewpoints on the other hand indicated, that he does feel emotional attachment to her. I think these are what give us that feeling, that Adolin does love Shallan, but Shallan tends to see many things how she wants to see them. She is not our most reliable narrator.

I see a lot of physical contact in their relationship and they are trying to open up to each other, but these instances are rare. Especially Shallan keeps shut and things look like, that she will want to keep it that way.

There was this soppy "You are beautiful" scene, where Teshav rolled her eyes. I think, that Brandon deliberately wrote that scene in there, because he actually made Teshav roll her eyes. Sure, it could just be teenagers being teenagers, but I think, that he actually wanted to show, that Adolin and Shallan are trying so hard to be romantic, because that is what is missing in their relationship, but they fail. They don't connect on that level.

Adolin... I think, Adolin is just trying to keep Shallan. Regardless of his true feelings for her which are still a mystery. In WoR, Adolin told Kaladin, that he really wants to "keep that one". This could mean he loves her, but it also could mean, that he wants to keep up with the expectation of the causal -> that he marries her. He cares about her, yes, but he also cares about other close people around him. Hell, he seems to care more about Kaladin than Shallan in this viewpoints.

Bottom line, a lot of it is still a mystery, but I think, that the feelings they apparently have for each other are actually pretty damnation shallow. Everything revolves about physical attraction with them. And when they try to share a romantic moment of letting the other one in, it is very short-lived or ends in cringe. So I have real doubts about the depth of their feelings.

ETA: Shallan's main reason for being glad of the quick wedding is, that she doesn't "want to go too far in the relationship without oaths". So, basically sex. Just as another point of how everything alludes to physicality with them. Shallan being held in his "strong arms pushing against her breasts" is another great example of that.

Also, I know, that Adolin is trying to back off from Shallan, so Kaladin can "have" her. I think he does so because he sees how they look at each other and wants the best for both of them. But what I think is more revelatory about that scene is how he sees Shallan. As a prize. Straight up objectification. Let that sink in and combine it with "I really want to keep that one" Disturbing, huh?

33 minutes ago, Mistbornwithakitty said:

I guess I just don't see either boy as a good option for her.....she needs to know who she is right now.  I understand Adolin will encourage her to "fade" into him, but you have to admit that going with Kaladin would present dangerous problems too. 

Absolutely. My dream ending would have been, that she would have chosen time for herself.

Edited January 3, 2018 by SLNC

[Humming]

I find the discussion about if Veil is truest Shallan persona very interesting.

For example this is the cover for WoK, right?

'The third is the liar, a young woman who wears a scholar's mantle over the heart of a thief'

Who's the thief persona? Veil. Who wears the scholar's mantle? maskShallan

I don't mean that the hobbies she shows as Shallan are fake or fabricated. But I'd like to point that the Shallan that fades without Adolin is the mantle over the true self. Is Veil what she would be if she wasn't traumatised as she is? Or is Veil the brightest glimpse of true Shallan?

It's very unlikely that the Shallan we've seen in OB's ending is the true Shallan starting to emerge. No flaring passion, no heart of a thief. Just a little Vorin girl marrying a rich man and powering her social status (Well, she's a RK too so she's in her own league). Shallan has the habit of pushing aside everything that hurts her or makes her uncomfortable. It is possible that traits of her true self, after being supressed by her dominante persona, flourish into Veil and to a lesser extent to Radiant. If all these hints and small brush strokes turn out to be nothing, it'd be an enormous amount of pages pointless. A door leading to nowhere.

Some people claim that at the end of OB Shallan is starting to heal, a small step. I agree, but not because Veil and Radiant are now subdued to Shallan as it seemed (first both decide that Kaladin is the choice, but suddenly they are fine with Adolin, that was a bit confusing), I think she starting to make progress when in Thaylen City her 3 personas worked together to create the illusory army.

Edit: Sorry if this has been discused already, the resolution of OB still itches and this forum is a nice place to procrastinate and, like Shallan, stuff the final exams to the back of the brain 

 

Edited January 4, 2018 by Humming

[maxal]

6 hours ago, MonsterMetroid said:

Who is Andolin? sounds like an instrument or something.

Have you practice your Andolin recently? 

6 hours ago, MonsterMetroid said:

I agree with this. Not that brandon doesnt want to but Adolins viewpoint doesnt offer as much as the other characters viewpoints do except for in one regard. And that being a regular guy in a Radiants world. Brandon used him in this regard in both Kolinar and Theylenah having him watch kaladin save them from boulders and jasnah kick butt.

I think Brandon would like to use him more but to keep the book short it is much more page effecient to view things from others perspectives So we see Shallan disjointed, Dalinar's inner conflict or Kaladins... kaladiness?

I disagree with this sentence. If Brandon is half the writer we claim he is, then he is perfectly aware of how Adolin's viewpoints are being written. My perspective is Adolin was never planned out to be a player within this story, he was added later on and the result is what we see: a character struggling to be one. Brandon has to be aware of what he has written, but he certainly believes it is fine as is because Adolin wasn't even supposed to be there, so every viewpoint is a bonus. To him they are. The fact a minority of readers think otherwise was not planned.

I also do not believe Brandon cut off Adolin's viewpoint in order to try to make the book shorter... So... He gave Adolin less viewpoints, a broken down narrative which lacks coherence, he ignored issues with respect to the character, he failed to deal with the aftermath of Sadeas's death in ways which readers find satisfying, he did all of this while wasting several pages of Rock teaching cooking to Lopen's cousin? He did all of this while wasting chapters of Kaladin shopping in Shadesmar? He did all of this while wasting page time exposing Drehy as gay? He did all of this while writing any part of the story which dragged, lagged and took way too much page time then it ought to.

I thus disagree. There was ample place, within a 1300 pages long book, to give Adolin a decent viewpoint. The fact it didn't happen and we are having this discussion is merely happening because Brandon disagrees with much of this discussion.

6 hours ago, Dreamstorm said:

I think we're going to have to agree to disagree here... but safe to say, I don't find there to be ample clues.  In fact, I don't find there to be much evidence outside of Shallan (who is our least reliable narrator and extremely biased in this regard) and sort of Kaladin (who is also biased due to his attraction to Shallan) that Adolin has much intense emotion for Shallan.  (I'm not saying he isn't fond of her, just that he's not "in love" with her, like the love we see between other Brandon characters.)  Regarding how Dalinar finds Adolin to be in love with Shallan, is there any point where he even mentions Adolin's emotions surrounding Shallan besides the below?  He mentions her in relation to being a Knight Radiant and betrothed to Adolin later in WoR and mentions the fact a son is married at the end of OB, but I don't recall he comments on the strength of Adolin's affection at any other point in time. eally don't buy that Brandon doesn't think Shallan's romantic relationships are important; he's simply devoted way too much page time to developing them for that to be the case.  Adolin's feelings in that relationship are vital to Shallan, even if Adolin himself is not important.

You aren't finding ample evidence because you are striving to look for evidence of the opposite. You are looking for an undeniable valid solid proof Adolin loves Shallan, but you aren't going to find it because Brandon does not believe he needs to write one. @DeployParachute has the right of it: if Adolin's thoughts on Shallan are either non-existent or shallow, it isn't because we ought to ask ourselves questions about them, it is because this is a narrative weakness within the story.

There are ample evidences Brandon does not believe in writing more of Adolin and there is ample evidence in Brandon believing Adolin needs no introspective (or very little of them) viewpoints because he is self-explanatory. I do firmly believe we are supposed to read Adolin loves Shallan and if it isn't made more obvious, it merely is a fault in the narrative, not foreshadowing for anything else. 

Navani is a different story because Navani was a planned character from the start: she even was a flashback character, at some point which means Brandon hold her in high esteem. She and Dalinar also are the major romance arc, per Brandon, hence he put more emphasis on it.

Brandon devoted too much page time to the Adolin/Shallan romance not to have taken the time to write ONE Adolin viewpoint on how he feels next to Shallan? Well, some readers think it is odd, but obviously Brandon, his team of reviewers and his editor do not. Forces are to admit what Adolin feels is just as unimportant as his character is.

7 hours ago, DeployParachute said:

Agreed with this. There is ample enough evidenced of Adolin's feelings being revealed during other viewpoints. I've not subscribed to the view that Adolin's love for Shallan is less than what it appears (sorry @Dreamstorm). Now the "why" he feels the way he does about Shallan seems quite shallow, and not as well explored as I would like, but I always chalked this up to the weakness of Adolin's screen time, and not because Brandon intended for us to think Adolin didn't have them. A well developed "why" the feelings are there is missing, but I think Brandon fully intended for us to believe that they are there. Another example of a "show me, don't tell me" problem present in the narrative.

I agree with this. Adolin is a classic example of "show me don't tell me" problem within the narrative which causes a lot of discussion because some readers are not buying into Brandon's take on "what we see is what we get" when it comes to this character.

7 hours ago, Prelude said:

Book 4 seems like it’s going to be a pivotal book for the series. Make or Break-at least for me. 

I said the exact same thing about OB. I once said this book would either "break it or make it" for Adolin's character. It didn't make it 

[wotbibliophile]

@Rainier  I do think Veil has feelings for Kaladin but they are ultimately Shallan's feelings because Shallan, Veil, and Radiant are all Shallan. She has broken into pieces but those pieces fit together to make a whole. None of them work well as individuals for long. At the end of OB Shallan light weaves as Veil, Radiant, and Shallan they all work together because together they are whole. I think all the feelings and capabilities of all three belong to Shallan; she is responsible for all of it. There is a line in OB (can't remember where) that says why do you have to be just one why can't you be all? That's how I see it. Shallan is all three even with all the contradictions. She's not one thing but she tries to simplify herself she tries to not have contradictions. So Shallan pretends it is someone else who has feelings for Kaladin (i.e. Veil) but it is Shallan who has these feelings.

@Humming  I think this has been mentioned before. I don't remember when. I like it; it is a good description of Shallan. Shallan is a liar and a thief. I don't think Adolin really gets this about her.

My favorite description of Shallan comes from Kaladin. In the chasm scene Kaladin says "The only time you seem to be honest is when you are insulting someone." (I did that from memory I may have it a little wrong.) I love it. I think it fits Shallan perfectly. She is not nice. Another thing I don't think Adolin gets about her. She is nice to him and maybe only him. I don't see this as a good thing though maybe I should. (In a relationship of course you want your partner to be nice to you.) There is a line in OB (I think this comes from Veil) where Veil says she can't or doesn't tease Adolin and I thought you really should be able to tease your partner. It really should be fun.

[Dreamstorm]

Alright, to stay on my latest favorite topic   (Plus some other reactions at the end.)

17 hours ago, DeployParachute said:

There is ample enough evidenced of Adolin's feelings being revealed during other viewpoints. I've not subscribed to the view that Adolin's love for Shallan is less than what it appears (sorry @Dreamstorm).

I don't mind the disagreement at all!  Can you point me to where the evidence is in other viewpoints besides Shallan's?  (Shallan is very untrustworthy - she even finds herself untrustworthy! - plus it's not very convincing to me when only one character's viewpoint supports a conclusion.)  I remember points where Kaladin finds them nauseating together (lol) and where there is touching, but I don't even remember from Kaladin's viewpoints the inference of strong emotions.  I would love to see these though!

14 hours ago, SLNC said:

His viewpoints indicated he doesn't really feel emotional attachment to her. He sometimes comments on her looks and actually criticizes it once in his head, but that is it.

Shallan's viewpoints on the other hand indicated, that he does feel emotional attachment to her. I think these are what give us that feeling, that Adolin does love Shallan, but Shallan tends to see many things how she wants to see them. She is not our most reliable narrator.

This very neatly summarizes how I feel!  I agree with the rest of your post too.  For both Shallan and Adolin, there is a strong sense that this was what was expected for them - to find a suitable match which makes political sense.  Adolin is even considered lucky (as noted in WoK) that he gets to have a choice in the matter!  They are both in a better position than expected as they actually like the person they are marrying (well, maybe one persona of Shallan loves Adolin, who knows), but that doesn't mean strong feelings.  But, strong feelings weren't something either of them were raised to expect.  I've been thinking a bit about @DimChatz's alternate triangle theory lately, especially as I pulled the quote below regarding how Navani sees Dalinar's relationship with Evi.  (Spoilered because it's really long.)  Kaladin has said/thought very similar things about how he sees Adolin and Shallan's marriage; that Shallan and Adolin fit, that everyone loves Adolin, that it's impossible to hate Adolin, that Adolin isn't a fool but he isn't clever (Shallan thinks that last one explicitly.)  I think this explains how Adolin was raised to see a marriage - fondness and a strong desire to make it work - as that is what his mother modeled.  None of this is bad, but it's not strong romantic feelings.

Spoiler

“Well, it looked a lot like hatred,” Navani said. “Though I did wonder several times what you were hiding behind those stony eyes of yours. Of course, then Shshshsh came along.”

As always, when the name of his wife was spoken, it came to him as the sound of softly rushing air, then slipped from his mind immediately. He could not hear, or remember, the name.

“She changed everything,” Navani said. “You truly seemed to love her.”

“I did,” Dalinar said. Surely he had loved her. Hadn’t he? He could remember nothing. “What was she like?” He quickly added, “I mean, in your opinion. How did you see her?”

“Everyone loved Shshshsh,” Navani said. “I tried hard to hate her, but in the end, I could only be mildly jealous.”

“You? Jealous of her? Whatever for?”

“Because,” Navani said. “She fit you so well, never making inappropriate comments, never bullying those around her, always so calm.” Navani smiled. “Thinking back, I really should have been able to hate her. But she was just so nice. Though she wasn’t very … well …”

“What?” Dalinar asked.

“Clever,” Navani said. She blushed, which was rare for her. “I’m sorry, Dalinar, but she just wasn’t. She wasn’t a fool, but … well … not everyone can be cunning. Perhaps that was part of her charm.”

She seemed to think that Dalinar would be offended. “It’s all right,” he said. “Were you surprised that I married her?”

“Who could be surprised? As I said, she was perfect for you.”

“Because we were matched intellectually?” Dalinar said dryly.

“Hardly. But you were matched in temperament. For a time, after I got over trying to hate her, I thought that the four of us could be quite close. But you were so stiff toward me.”

 

10 hours ago, maxal said:

You aren't finding ample evidence because you are striving to look for evidence of the opposite. You are looking for an undeniable valid solid proof Adolin loves Shallan, but you aren't going to find it because Brandon does not believe he needs to write one. @DeployParachute has the right of it: if Adolin's thoughts on Shallan are either non-existent or shallow, it isn't because we ought to ask ourselves questions about them, it is because this is a narrative weakness within the story.

....

Brandon devoted too much page time to the Adolin/Shallan romance not to have taken the time to write ONE Adolin viewpoint on how he feels next to Shallan? Well, some readers think it is odd, but obviously Brandon, his team of reviewers and his editor do not. Forces are to admit what Adolin feels is just as unimportant as his character is.

I can't tell if you (i) agree with me that there isn't proof of Adolin loving Shallan or (ii) you're telling me I'm not looking hard enough for the proof that Adolin loves Shallan.  If it's (ii), show it to me!  I'd love to see quotes where Dalinar or Renarin or Jasnah or Navani is either thinking in their own viewpoints or saying to someone else how Adolin is in love with Shallan.  I see a lot of support from other characters for their marriage, but I don't see any discussion about their emotions outside of the quote by Dalinar about fondness (see a couple of posts back of mine.)  If it's (i), then it's great we agree on that, we just disagree why Brandon decided not to include any proof that Adolin loves Shallan (outside of Shallan's viewpoints.)  You think it's a narrative weakness, a mistake by Brandon.  I think it means something because it's a very easy thing to include which is conspicuously absent (and I just can't get behind the argument that no one - out of many alpha readers, including professional ones from his publisher, and dozens of beta readers, including many which we know from posting on this board are huge Shadolin fans, didn't mention something about this.)  And not only is it absent, but we get evidence (showing not telling evidence) to the contrary.  Twice Adolin chooses to support/hang out with his buddy (Kaladin) instead of Shallan.  (When escaping Kholinar in Shadesmar and when choosing what to do in Celebrant.)  But the most convincing scene I quoted below.  This is an interaction just between Adolin and Shallan.  We see Adolin have thoughts/take actions which then directly contradict a "romantic line" he tells Shallan.  (He does think the outfit is unflattering; the highstorm clouds could compete since they pulled him away before.)  So Brandon decided to include a scene where we find out we can't trust Adolin actually believes his romantic lines to Shallan while also not including (in Adolin's PoV) any strong evidence about how Adolin feels about Shallan.  To relate this to how you see Brandon writing Adolin (what you see is what you get), what I see is evidence in one direction (Adolin not having intense feelings about Shallan) but very little evidence (or unreliable evidence, i.e. Shallan) in another direction.  

Quote

Adolin grinned. Kaladin looked like a man trying to wear his childhood suit; he’d never button that coat across his broad chest. Shallan fit her shirt and jacket better from a pure measurements standpoint, but the cut wasn’t flattering. Azure looked far more … normal without her dramatic breastplate and cloak.

“I’d practically kill for a skirt,” Shallan noted.

“You’re kidding,” Azure said.

“No. I’m getting tired of the way trousers rub my legs. Adolin, could you sew me a dress? Maybe stitch the legs of these trousers together?”

He rubbed his chin, which had begun to sprout a blond beard. “It doesn’t work that way—I can’t magic more cloth out of nothing. It…”

He trailed off as, overhead, the clouds suddenly rippled, glowing with a strange mother-of-pearl iridescence. Another highstorm, their second since arriving in Shadesmar. The group stopped and stared up at the dramatic light show. Nearby, the Reachers seemed to stand up more straight, move about their sailing duties more vigorously.

.....

He found himself musing on that. He nodded his thanks to Azure as she excused herself to get something to drink. He was still standing there when Shallan returned from interviewing—well, interrogating—the Reachers. She took his arm, and together they watched the shimmering clouds for a while.

“I look terrible, don’t I?” she finally asked, nudging him in the side. “No makeup, with hair that hasn’t been washed in days, and now wearing a dumpy set of worker’s clothing.”

“I don’t think you’re capable of looking terrible,” he said, pulling her closer. “In all their color, even those clouds can’t compete.”

OB, Ch. 101, Deadeye

15 hours ago, wotbibliophile said:

I immediately thought of Komarr by Lois McMaster Bujold SPOILER!!! Ekaterine is married to a man she wants to leave. She feels obligated to have sex with him and then waits for him to fall asleep and goes to the bathroom to cry. It was horrible to read. Props to Sanderson if he is avoiding this.

I haven't read this book, but this sounds horrible.  I would so much rather have a female-sex skewed narrative than to have to deal with this.  Coercive sex is deeply, deeply troubling to me 

15 hours ago, Rainier said:

There are times when a cigar is just a cigar, and there are times when a cigar is a potent phallic symbol. In this case, there are times when someone's posture is just how they're sitting, and there are times when the sitting is itself a symbol.

All throughout we hear about The Girl Who Stood Up. This scene? She's seated. She's sitting down when she does the flickering of personalities and she's sitting down when Adolin recognizes her.

I LOL'd at the cigar   This remains my favorite piece of foreshadowing on this arc.  I was in a bad, bad place with Brandon when I realized this (because if I take the hand holding, eye gazing, choosing the "real" Shallan scene at face value it is very upsetting from a female agency perspective), and this was the moment where I decided, storm it, something isn't right and I'm Shalladin all the way.  (And then I was back to loving the books.) 

14 hours ago, Humming said:

'The third is the liar, a young woman who wears a scholar's mantle over the heart of a thief'

Who's the thief persona? Veil. Who wears the scholar's mantle? maskShallan

This is an awesome find!  There are so many clues that Veil is much closer to realShallan than maskShallan (the persona she created in order to survive her abusive household.)

[maxal]

28 minutes ago, Dreamstorm said:

I can't tell if you (i) agree with me that there isn't proof of Adolin loving Shallan or (ii) you're telling me I'm not looking hard enough for the proof that Adolin loves Shallan.  If it's (ii), show it to me!  I'd love to see quotes where Dalinar or Renarin or Jasnah or Navani is either thinking in their own viewpoints or saying to someone else how Adolin is in love with Shallan.  I see a lot of support from other characters for their marriage, but I don't see any discussion about their emotions outside of the quote by Dalinar about fondness (see a couple of posts back of mine.)  If it's (i), then it's great we agree on that, we just disagree why Brandon decided not to include any proof that Adolin loves Shallan (outside of Shallan's viewpoints.)  You think it's a narrative weakness, a mistake by Brandon.  I think it means something because it's a very easy thing to include which is conspicuously absent (and I just can't get behind the argument that no one - out of many alpha readers, including professional ones from his publisher, and dozens of beta readers, including many which we know from posting on this board are huge Shadolin fans, didn't mention something about this.)  And not only is it absent, but we get evidence (showing not telling evidence) to the contrary.  Twice Adolin chooses to support/hang out with his buddy (Kaladin) instead of Shallan.  (When escaping Kholinar in Shadesmar and when choosing what to do in Celebrant.)  But the most convincing scene I quoted below.  This is an interaction just between Adolin and Shallan.  We see Adolin have thoughts/take actions which then directly contradict a "romantic line" he tells Shallan.  (He does think the outfit is unflattering; the highstorm clouds could compete since they pulled him away before.)  So Brandon decided to include a scene where we find out we can't trust Adolin actually believes his romantic lines to Shallan while also not including (in Adolin's PoV) any strong evidence about how Adolin feels about Shallan.  To relate this to how you see Brandon writing Adolin (what you see is what you get), what I see is evidence in one direction (Adolin not having intense feelings about Shallan) but very little evidence (or unreliable evidence, i.e. Shallan) in another direction.  

No, I am not saying you aren't looking hard enough, you are looking very hard for it. I am saying you will not find what you are looking for because Brandon did not include any of the proofs you are looking for into the narrative.

Where we disagree is I see it as a narrative weakness and not the hint of something more. You claim it would have been very easy to include, this is true. It would have been very easy to include enough of Adolin's viewpoints to have his narrative feel cohesive from beginning to end. It would have been very easy to have Adolin reflect on the fact his entire family is made of Radiants. It would have been easy to make Adolin's arc extraordinarily more compelling and not read like a boring Gary Stu, but it wasn't done. 

You can't get behind the argument neither the alpha nor the beta readers saw fit to point it out to Brandon? I can. Why? Because the readership which Brandon is writing for, the readership which is represented within those groups is not the readership which bothers itself with Adolin nor the romance. It wasn't flagged because those groups loved the book: the percentage of the readership which was disappointed with the book was not represented within any of those groups. This is why it wasn't criticized. Brandon is not writing SA for the purpose of fleshing out Adolin nor the romance, reviewers understand this, hence they are always on-board with whatever Brandon is suggesting.

I thus maintain my point, there are no Adolin viewpoint speaking of his feelings because Brandon just never thought it was important. His reviewers and his editors didn't think it was important either. The "what we see is what we get" quote refers mostly to the "most obvious answer is the best". Adolin loves Shallan. It isn't textually written in the books because Brandon believes the character speaks for himself: it is why he is written is such a shallow way. 

[Dreamstorm]

@maxal I get your point, thanks for working through this with me!  I disagree with regards to the writing and the intent, but I understand why you are coming down the way you are.  I remain hopeful that there's a bit more thought put into things, but I agree that given a lot of reactions (i.e. to the Shalladin/Shadolin arc, like you mention) many readers are perfectly fine with a lack of things "hanging together."  I will hold out hope, but if SA4 drops these dangling plot threads, you can tell me I told you so (or I'll just remember to give you a shout out ) 

[Vissy]

On 1.1.2018 at 5:36 PM, maxal said:

One of my issues with Shallan is how her arc is basically the same arc she had in her WoR flashbacks. Writing a regression is fine and everything, but you need to pick the right character for it and I do not think it was right for Shallan to regress as low as she did in OB. Why? Because her great moment and her entire arc in WoR was about her assuming her past, re-learning her past. Hence writing her as forgetting it, once again, really felt repetitive and it was unnerving. Well, to me it was unnerving. 

I agree about Lift, she really does not fit... I like her, but she clashed within the setting.

And yes, the characters just did what the plot needed them to do. OB was.... a very mechanical book which is why the most emotional readers are not liking it.

I agree, but by the time the book is beta read, no big changes can be applied. Hence maybe it was the gamma read which was done too quickly. I am thinking the decision to have the reviewer review parts one at a time months before the next was to be written harmed the process. Hard to say Part 1 is not working if you have no idea what will come into Part 2. Hard to go back to it when you don't read Part 2 until nearly a year later.

All of this, yep. I think this is where Brandon's fast writing process also worked against him. I think he really should spend more time on these big books, the Stormlight books, in general. I have no idea if he's ever given it any serious thought, but maybe that's something he will lean towards more in the future.

Edited January 4, 2018 by Vissy

[maxal]

6 hours ago, Dreamstorm said:

@maxal I get your point, thanks for working through this with me!  I disagree with regards to the writing and the intent, but I understand why you are coming down the way you are.  I remain hopeful that there's a bit more thought put into things, but I agree that given a lot of reactions (i.e. to the Shalladin/Shadolin arc, like you mention) many readers are perfectly fine with a lack of things "hanging together."  I will hold out hope, but if SA4 drops these dangling plot threads, you can tell me I told you so (or I'll just remember to give you a shout out ) 

Nah, I would never do this  I definitely get where you are coming: I have been there which may be why I sound so pessimistic about it now. I just do not feel all of my time investment, my passion was well-served with OB. Others could rightly so: "This is your own fault: it was obvious you were dead wrong.", but I still maintain the expectations I had were realistic. Hence, I'd never use this curse sentence towards you or anyone. I respect your position and I understand your argumentation, I just cannot believe in it for all of the reasons I have mentioned. As I once said, the only individual who'd be able to get me back into the hype wagon for SA is Brandon himself, but I doubt I'd be lucky enough (nor important enough) to deserve such an intervention.

5 hours ago, Vissy said:

All of this, yep. I think this is where Brandon's fast writing process also worked against him. I think he really should spend more time on these big books, the Stormlight books, in general. I have no idea if he's ever given it any serious thought, but maybe that's something he will lean towards more in the future.

Some readers have had the same thoughts... I, of course, do not know the exact answer (nor am I pretending to know it), but it is very easy to look back and to say our grievances might have been the by-product of the accelerated editing process, the choice of reviewers and Brandon Sanderon's very busy schedule. We however cannot know for sure this is the case... I personally found it baffling the author would purposefully choose to write such an under-whelming story arc for Adolin murdering Sadeas: I do not even understand how Brandon himself thought this was for the best, let alone the dozen of reviewers which went through this book before it got released. Mind, from what I have heard, some didn't like it, but their voice didn't end up changing much to the final product.

Unfortunately, the only individual able to answer those questions would be Brandon Sanderson himself. Chances of that however aren't very high.... these aren't subjects he readily talks about. I have seen him address critics for his previous books, but I am not sure he would believe our grievances are validated. I think he is more likely to say: "A story cannot be everything for every reader and this is the narrative I felt worked the best. Readers can always edited in their mind to please their fancy.". I doubt he will say: "I realize some readers are unhappy with how certain aspects of the story were handled. I will try to offer better closure within book 4.". 

[Chaos]

22 minutes ago, maxal said:

I just do not feel all of my time investment, my passion was well-served with OB.

You are more than welcome to continue to post, but you spend a lot of time in this topic. I don't know if that is necessary, especially if you're implying here that the book wasn't a good time investment. I think the points have been made. 

[Rainier]

47 minutes ago, maxal said:

Nah, I would never do this  I definitely get where you are coming: I have been there which may be why I sound so pessimistic about it now. I just do not feel all of my time investment, my passion was well-served with OB.

For you it was Adolin, for whoever's still around (and isn't scolding us), it's Shallan. If this really is the end of her love triangle, I'm going to be disappointed. Mighty disappointed, much like I imagine you feel. It scares me. You're like Jezrien, drunk in the streets, moaning about the Unmade and I see in you my future....