[OB] Adolin-Shallan-Kaladin Discussion

[Vissy]

I agree so much about wasted potential with Adolin's story arc. I used to think just like you @maxal, at the beginning of OB, I had high hopes for all of the build-up for Adolin. But then it just kind of vanished. 

I also think that he was mistaken to deny Kaladin his level-up moment in this book. Honestly speaking, it feels like he was too afraid to fall into the same pattern, maybe too focused on trying to do something new. Personally I don't think there is anything wrong with falling into patterns, even incredibly predictable ones, as long as you do them in interesting ways. There's always a lot of emotional payoff for Kaladin's heroic moments. Maybe this'll only make the next one all the sweeter, who knows?

WoK introduces us to Roshar and to Radiants. WoR introduced us to Alethi society and to the main conflict of the entire series. OB... in the end, what new do we know? Not much. This isn't everything, though. WoK and WoR both had strong central characters that were, basically, the soul of the book. Kaladin acted that part for WoK and less so for WoR, which felt more unified in that Shallan, Dalinar and even Adolin supported in creating an unified structure. Oathbringer was supposed to be Dalinar's book, but it felt more like Shallan's book if anything. Maybe Dalinar just isn't as interesting as either Kaladin or Shallan are, maybe - despite how much Brandon loves him as a character - he just isn't as compelling. Either way, (at the very least) the way Brandon Sanderson wrote Dalinar failed to anchor the plot of Oathbringer to a grander narrative. It all just ended up feeling flat. Personally, I think he should just give Kaladin and Shallan the page-time they both demand. They're far more engaging characters than Dalinar has ever been written to be.

In OB, Dalinar got a power-up. That's it. Some of the nations are allied with him, some of them aren't. The state of the world is pretty much exactly the same as in the end of WoR, or even in Edgedancer. Lift still feels like a cardboard cut-out from another series (seriously, I like her, but she feels completely detached from the setting). Kaladin and Shallan took major steps backwards as characters, and Shallan's love interest was treated like a plot contrivance. A lot of the characters broke character and pretty much just did what the plot demanded them to do. 

I can't help but feel like Oathbringer could've used an additional few months of beta readership, maybe more editorial input, to correct it. Maybe this relative disappointment is because of Apocalypse Guard and his problems with that series - after all, he had to cancel it temporarily before OB due to lack of ideas. I hope that this run of poor form has ended.

Edited December 31, 2017 by Vissy

[Prelude]

Oathbringer just had too much bloat. I agree with @maxal there was too much repetition of Daliners politics and his flashbacks could have been shorter. Also, I love Bridge Four but really just as a collective group bolstering Kaladins story. I hate to say this but I didn't much care or need their veiwpoint chapters. Trim this and we could of had more character development or just plain good ole dialogue between our characters. I don’t know when I will even do a reread forcing myself to trudge through all the bloat. 

Edited January 1, 2018 by Prelude

[wotbibliophile]

@Humming Yes wot does mean Wheel of Time. Reading WOT is what made me really love reading. Sometimes I accidentally call Kaladin Rand (not that I think they are at all alike) I just got in the habit of always thinking about Rand.

@ILuvHats I am really hoping for better resolution for Shallan. The end of OB was not at all satisfying. Sanderson just did not set up for it. The Girl who stood up (the chapter with Wit) made me think the best resolution for Shallan is that she forgives herself. There is no hint of that at the end of OB but she gets married and I am pretty sure she hates herself. I think something drastic has to occur for Shallan to confront her problems. I expect another break down like what happened in Kholinar when Grund died. (Was his name Grund? I mean the boy she was trying to feed.)

About Adolin. I do like him. I like Maya and I hope he revives her. He seems on his way. He's a side character and I'm fine with him staying that way. His character would be better if he struggled with anything at all. I am trying to imagine that Shal and Ado have a good marriage in the future books. I think Sanderson means for Shal and Ado to stay together, but it really does not work for me. If Shal and Ado have a really good marriage in the next book with zero problems much like their relationship so far I think this will bother me enough that I will drop SA. Not sure. It will depend on what else is in the books. I read SA for Kaladin. He is my favorite character. It may be I'll keep reading for his sake and just downgrade Shallan to another female character Sanderson has written poorly.

[maxal]

7 hours ago, SLNC said:

I have one big problem with the Maya storyline, if it continues like it is now. Once again, everything just falls to Adolin. I don't mind him becoming a Radiant, but shouldn't he have the same trials and tribulations, that our current Radiants had? Shouldn't he spend time to attract a spren? To fail in between, but learn from these failures? No, of course, he already has an Edgedancer Shardblade and, of course, he is already doing exactly the right things to revive it, because it is just his nature to be like that, without even knowing what to do really. It just feels way too easy for me.

I agree with every single points you are raising. You are absolutely right in everything you say which is why I wish for Adolin to get enough of a story arc to make Maya plausible and satisfying.

[Humming]

15 hours ago, Prelude said:

Also, I love Bridge Four but really just as a collective group bolstering Kaladins story. I hate to say this but I didn't much care or need their veiwpoint chapters. Trim this and we could of had more character development or just plain good ole dialogue between our characters.

I disagree with this, Bridge Four individuals backstory is interesting for more depth. Rock point of view with his family is heartwarming and also helps with worldbuilding. I prefer to have more secondary point of view like this, or Teft's, than spending extra chapters of characters regression like some of Oathbringer.

[Vissy]

I found Bridge Four as a kind of a mixed bag. I appreciated Skar's viewpoint but I'd rather have swapped Teft out for more Kaladin. 

[Mistbornwithakitty]

As a longtime fan of Shalladin, I was honestly shocked that I didn’t completely rebel when Adolin and Shallan actually got married.  I started this book dead-set on seeing bridgeboy and the-unlikely-scholar together at the end.  Their sparkling wit!   Their mutual struggles!  Not to mention they would’ve been the coolest power couple!  Yet this is why they should not realistically end up together.  Even though these may have already been expressed (I don’t have time to read the previous 68 pages, oi), here are my meager observations:   

1. It can be safely said, that Shallan and Kaladin didn’t have many moments together in the first place.  The closest they came to really bonding was in the chasms in WoR.  Even then, it was just two desperate people confiding in each other.  I can tell you from experience that it’s easier to tell a stranger your secrets than someone you know; less risky for the heart.  Did they really hang out after that?  Follow up on talking about that experience?  No.  They both kind of kicked it under the rug.  So, no real personal bonding ever happened (unless it happened off screen, which I doubt).  Yes, they were witty when shoved into the same room, but they were hardly ever serious with each other.

2. Kaladin and Shallan also have the same difficulties with their past and themselves.  Both have a hard time believing they’re worth anything.  They have the same struggles when facing/accepting the past.  Kaladin shatters at the thought that he may not be able to save everyone due to the past.  Shallan just refuses to face her past, period (although she did make some progress in this book).  When two people are struggling with basically the same issues, it’s nearly impossible to say that they’d make each other “better people”.

3.  Shallan is probably better with someone ordinary like Adolin (or as ordinary as it gets on Roshar, ha).  He’s more dependable, more stable.  That’s what Shallan needs.  She needs someone that’s going to help her be a stable person herself.

Of course, I’m not completely pleased with it, but on further thought, I can see why she chose Adolin.  As for Shallan and Kaladin getting together later on...I doubt it.  But that's another big, long, rambling post.  

 Mr. Sanderson seems to constantly put strong stripes of realism into his characters.  That being said, it’s perfectly realistic to say Shallan (the girl who’s unsure of almost everything, most of all herself) and Adolin (the sensitive guy who is down-to-earth) would be the endgame.  Anyhow, hope I made sense!  

[maxal]

17 hours ago, Vissy said:

I agree so much about wasted potential with Adolin's story arc. I used to think just like you @maxal, at the beginning of OB, I had high hopes for all of the build-up for Adolin. But then it just kind of vanished. 

I felt a break within the story. Early on, Adolin's character was very well written, with decent viewpoints, proper reactions. Dalinar and Navani's wedding was a bit odd because I had a hard time believing Adolin could let go enough of his stress to enjoy it, but this was a small transgression I was willing yo ignore. Then, there was the copy-cat murder, the meeting with Ialai and the breaking. It starts more or less when Shallan starts playing at being Veil and it becomes apparent when the story decides this wouldn't be Adolin's investigation, but Veil's. 

Very early on, when the idea of dark air vents was introduced, with a creature hunting through them, I had the goosebumps. I thought our character would creep into dark tunnels, fighting unknown terrifying creatures, it made me think of Alien 2. 

But no. It became Shallan's silly arc where she does "everything all by herself", Adolin completely forgotten: we never once get his viewpoint on the investigation. Not once are the clues he left behind... found. And when Shallan goes into a tunnel to confront Re-Shephir, it was under-whelming. It was just Adolin hacking through the creature while Shallan touches it and makes it go away. Where was the tension? Where was the claustrophobia? Where was the fear?

Re-Shephir was the most disappointing opponent ever and it literally ruined the tension the early book had manage to create. In all books I have read by Brandon Sanderson, not once have I seen him drop the ball on anticipation and expectations he himself built, but with this arc. I still cannot understand why he thought this was the best narrative nor why no one within his close group of reviewer pointed it out to him.

Too much of OB felt like it wasn't written together: you have groups of chapters which fits, then everything breaks away as you move onto another group of chapters. The story had little cohesion and I think this may be the by-product of Brandon not really focusing on OB when he was writing it. He kept on taking breaks, touring, working on other books and I think the end result might be a direct consequence of having taking too many very long breaks while writing the same book.

17 hours ago, Vissy said:

I also think that he was mistaken to deny Kaladin his level-up moment in this book. Honestly speaking, it feels like he was too afraid to fall into the same pattern, maybe too focused on trying to do something new. Personally I don't think there is anything wrong with falling into patterns, even incredibly predictable ones, as long as you do them in interesting ways. There's always a lot of emotional payoff for Kaladin's heroic moments. Maybe this'll only make the next one all the sweeter, who knows?

Actually I do not agree. I think not allowing Kaladin to level-up was the right move for his character as making him save the day in a ball of stormlight, once again, would have been too repetitive. IMHO, Kaladin's story arc problem is not the fact he didn't say the fourth oath, it is the fact he has nothing to do all book but talk to minor people, eating stew and basically re-live his WoK story arc. If he was to have so little to do, then he should have gotten much less page time or be given more action.

I was personally ripe for other characters have emotional heroic moment. Unfortunately, OB was a pretty non-emotional book, on average. 

17 hours ago, Vissy said:

WoK introduces us to Roshar and to Radiants. WoR introduced us to Alethi society and to the main conflict of the entire series. OB... in the end, what new do we know? Not much. This isn't everything, though. WoK and WoR both had strong central characters that were, basically, the soul of the book. Kaladin acted that part for WoK and less so for WoR, which felt more unified in that Shallan, Dalinar and even Adolin supported in creating an unified structure. Oathbringer was supposed to be Dalinar's book, but it felt more like Shallan's book if anything. Maybe Dalinar just isn't as interesting as either Kaladin or Shallan are, maybe - despite how much Brandon loves him as a character - he just isn't as compelling. Either way, (at the very least) the way Brandon Sanderson wrote Dalinar failed to anchor the plot of Oathbringer to a grander narrative. It all just ended up feeling flat. Personally, I think he should just give Kaladin and Shallan the page-time they both demand. They're far more engaging characters than Dalinar has ever been written to be.

To be honest, some readers thought Shallan's book read like Kaladin's book, hence I wouldn't say OB was Shallan's book, but I will say I find the structure too restrictive. I do think giving Dalinar the largest page time, in OB, was not the right choice because his present day character is just not as engaging as the other ones. What does he do all book? He talks. He repeats himself. He sees visions we have already seen. He tries to convince the same people to join him. Over and over again. It is repetitive and frankly not very engaging to read. Maybe it was required, but less would have been better or at least write those chapters from either Navani or Jasnah's viewpoint to change the pace. The idea the flashback character also needs to have an absurd amount of page time within the main narrative is odd because a character like Dalinar, who's not central to the action, who's not doing much besides talking, really does not need so many chapters. 

My opinion differs from your because, from my perspective, Dalinar/Kaladin/Shallan all had too much page time for what their respective character arcs demanded. The end result is their arcs all dragged at one point or another because all had chapters being wasted doing nothing or repeating what has already been said or being badly used into narrative not really adding much to the story (Veil in Kholinar). On the reverse, characters such as Adolin didn't get nearly half the page time he would have needed to have a decent arc. Many emotional scenes also went missing such as Jasnah's return, the wedding, Gavinor and so much. At a 1300 pages, there was no reason for scenes to go missing when the story drags so long onto the main characters arcs.

Also, epic fantasy such as SA can really carry on more than 3 main protagonists: this tight focus is, IMHO, starting to harm the narrative because each character really does not have enough to do with support their page time. It makes the narrative plunge too deeply into their internal arcs and it makes some readers lose interest when it becomes too much.

17 hours ago, Vissy said:

In OB, Dalinar got a power-up. That's it. Some of the nations are allied with him, some of them aren't. The state of the world is pretty much exactly the same as in the end of WoR, or even in Edgedancer. Lift still feels like a cardboard cut-out from another series (seriously, I like her, but she feels completely detached from the setting). Kaladin and Shallan took major steps backwards as characters, and Shallan's love interest was treated like a plot contrivance. A lot of the characters broke character and pretty much just did what the plot demanded them to do. 

One of my issues with Shallan is how her arc is basically the same arc she had in her WoR flashbacks. Writing a regression is fine and everything, but you need to pick the right character for it and I do not think it was right for Shallan to regress as low as she did in OB. Why? Because her great moment and her entire arc in WoR was about her assuming her past, re-learning her past. Hence writing her as forgetting it, once again, really felt repetitive and it was unnerving. Well, to me it was unnerving. 

I agree about Lift, she really does not fit... I like her, but she clashed within the setting.

And yes, the characters just did what the plot needed them to do. OB was.... a very mechanical book which is why the most emotional readers are not liking it.

17 hours ago, Vissy said:

I can't help but feel like Oathbringer could've used an additional few months of beta readership, maybe more editorial input, to correct it. Maybe this relative disappointment is because of Apocalypse Guard and his problems with that series - after all, he had to cancel it temporarily before OB due to lack of ideas. I hope that this run of poor form has ended.

I agree, but by the time the book is beta read, no big changes can be applied. Hence maybe it was the gamma read which was done too quickly. I am thinking the decision to have the reviewer review parts one at a time months before the next was to be written harmed the process. Hard to say Part 1 is not working if you have no idea what will come into Part 2. Hard to go back to it when you don't read Part 2 until nearly a year later.

49 minutes ago, Vissy said:

I found Bridge Four as a kind of a mixed bag. I appreciated Skar's viewpoint but I'd rather have swapped Teft out for more Kaladin. 

I agree with you too. I liked the Bridge 4 perspective, but considering so much was not well-wrapped, explored nor written decently for the more important characters, it could read as wasted page time. I mean, we didn't get Jasnah's return scene, but we had 5 page of Rock teaching how to cook Lopen's cousin... Mind, I like Rock, but a minor character such as him didn't need such a long exposition chapter. I also wonder about the relevant of spending page time on Drehy being gay considering we didn't get one viewpoint from Adolin on his relationship with Shallan.

So all in all, had the rest of the book been up to the expectations, I wouldn't mind Bridge 4 viewpoints at all, but seeing at too much was skipped, ignored or removed, I can't sit back and say those chapters were absolutely needed. 

As for more Kaladin, to get more page time, Kaladin would have needed something else to do, which he didn't. I do not think more Kaladin would have helped the book, I am even arguing his story drags because he had too much page time for what it really needed.

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Mistbornwithakitty said:

It can be safely said, that Shallan and Kaladin didn’t have many moments together in the first place.  The closest they came to really bonding was in the chasms in WoR.  Even then, it was just two desperate people confiding in each other.  I can tell you from experience that it’s easier to tell a stranger your secrets than someone you know; less risky for the heart.  Did they really hang out after that?  Follow up on talking about that experience?  No.  They both kind of kicked it under the rug.  So, no real personal bonding ever happened (unless it happened off screen, which I doubt).  Yes, they were witty when shoved into the same room, but they were hardly ever serious with each other.

Yup. Agreed. And I could absolutely understand Shallan's decision, if she and Adolin went through any emotional bonding whatsoever. They didn't. They feel comfortable around each other and like to cuddle and stuff, but I just don't see any real emotional investment. Just necessity. Nothing really naturally evolved, they are at a standstill. Even worse, they are trying so hard to be cute and so 'in love', when it just turns into a giant cringefest, which even brings Teshav to roll her eyes. It just feels so forced.

Shallan and Kaladin don't really feel like that. I don't think, that them confiding in each other was out of desperation, since they were relatively save in the alcove at that point. They didn't have a real reason to do it, but they did. Natural evolution of their relationship with each other.

2 hours ago, Mistbornwithakitty said:

Kaladin and Shallan also have the same difficulties with their past and themselves.  Both have a hard time believing they’re worth anything.  They have the same struggles when facing/accepting the past.  Kaladin shatters at the thought that he may not be able to save everyone due to the past.  Shallan just refuses to face her past, period (although she did make some progress in this book).  When two people are struggling with basically the same issues, it’s nearly impossible to say that they’d make each other “better people”.

Fair opinion. I don't agree, but its okay. Only I don't see how Shallan made any progress in facing her past. Quite the contrary, she continues to hide between her personalities.

Plus there is a great piece by @DeployParachute on how Shallan's and Kaladin's problems might correlate. I invite you to read it.

2 hours ago, Mistbornwithakitty said:

Shallan is probably better with someone ordinary like Adolin (or as ordinary as it gets on Roshar, ha).  He’s more dependable, more stable.  That’s what Shallan needs.  She needs someone that’s going to help her be a stable person herself.

I don't know. Evidence points to Shallan not really being stable. Yes, she doesn't fracture further, but we have a WoB, that Shallan is not in control of her switching. Plus, how she keeps becoming Veil in front of Adolin. I don't know why she would consciously do that.

Quote

kari-no-sugata [PENDING REVIEW]

In her final scene, she seems like she kind of summons her personas... as if she's fully in control, and they're not coming by themselves anymore, is that correct?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

No.

kari-no-sugata [PENDING REVIEW]

So, they still come and go as they want?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Yes, she's much more in control, but still has a way to go.

kari-no-sugata [PENDING REVIEW]

Would Wit basically approve of what she's done?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

He would give her a "that's a step forward, but you're not there yet."

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/256-oathbringer-london-signing/#e8699

Another thing to that. Like I already said. That whole marriage seems so forced and out of necessity. Adolin is happy, that he finally kept a girl and Shallan is happy, that she can use Adolin to anchor Shallan as her dominant personality, but are they really happy with each other? Is it really out of love? These were questions I've constantly been asking myself.

I'm not saying, that Kaladin would have been the better choice at the end of OB, but lets be honest: Adolin was constantly standing between them and when they finally talked with each other it ended in a lot of misunderstanding, because both of them were pretty much at their lowest points. While I'm not saying, that Adolin was actively trying to stand between them, he did so. Kaladin didn't act on his developing feelings, because of Adolin being causally betrothed to Shallan and Shallan pushed them away, because she was ashamed of even having them, being the good Vorin girl she is constantly telling herself she is... but is she really?

Quote

Shallan berates the book merchant

The timid nature is a result of the problems in her past (see book two’s flashbacks). I see the moments of flaring passion as being far more “her.”

Shallan’s father has an infamous temper; it’s buried deep within her as well. If she’d been allowed to grow up more naturally, without the oppressive darkness that her family suffered, she would have turned out as a very different person. Still, the person she could become is buried inside her. In my mind, this is one of the big connections between her as a character and Kaladin. It is also part of why both attract a certain type of spren…

https://brandonsanderson.com/annotation-the-way-of-kings-chapter-8/

I think, Veil actually represents more of her real self, than she wants to acknowledge.

Especially when we look back at the blurb of WoK:

Quote

There are four whom we watch. The first is the surgeon, forced to put aside healing to become a soldier in the most brutal war of our time. The second is the assassin, a murderer who weeps as he kills. The third is the liar, a young woman who wears a scholar’s mantle over the heart of a thief. The last is the highprince, a warlord whose eyes have opened to the past as his thirst for battle wanes.

So, yeah. I think, that Shallan is just the facade, while Veil is actually the more character-defining part of the unfractured Shallan. We actually see this a lot in WoR.

Edited January 1, 2018 by SLNC

[Prelude]

I don’t know if I can get a real sense of how Kaladin is in a relationship. I don’t recall seeing him actively pursing a relationship with either of his previous love interests. He certainly doesn’t do so with Shallan. I’m not sure if he would of even if Andolin was not in the picture. He doesn’t seem very aggressive in that regard. How does he enter into a relationship? 

Edited January 1, 2018 by Prelude

[Humming]

1 hour ago, Prelude said:

I don’t know if I can get a real sense of how Kaladin is in a relationship. I don’t recall seeing him actively pursing a relationship with either of his previous love interests. He certainly doesn’t do so with Shallan. I’m not sure if he would of even if Andolin was not in the picture. He doesn’t seem very aggressive in that regard. How does he enter into a relationship? 

He's not ready. Syl tries to help him to overcome his 'I just need Bridge Four' state, but fails. I think that's one of the problems that didn't let him advance in his Radiant path too. Kaladin denies that he wants to be closer to Shallan as Syl teases him, he states that he's a loner and only need his men to be happy and whole. But it's a lie, his actions and gesture show that is a poor lie he's trying to use to convince himself.

[wotbibliophile]

@Prelude This seems to be a trend with Sanderson. His male characters seem totally uninterested in sex. His female characters are more interested. I think this has been the case in all of his books. It makes me go hmmmm this is rather unrealistic. It makes me laugh. I'm talking specifically his main male and female characters. 

@Mistbornwithakitty  You make some good points. It is just that if that is what Sanderson meant to do, he still wrote it very badly. I do not believe Shallan made a healthy choice at the end of OB. There are two reasons for this. 1. She hates herself. I don't believe you can love someone (romantically) when you hate yourself; you just have nothing to give. 2. She is insane. She thinks she is three people. No sane person thinks this. At the end of OB when she talks to Veil and Radiant (just before the wedding) does she know she is talking to herself or does she believe she is talking to two other people (sort of like bride maids)? I think she doesn't know she is only talking to herself (there is no one else in the room after all). I could get behind Shallan's choice if I thought she chose out of a sense of well being instead I feel she is totally dependent on Adolin ("without you I fade") and that is a bit gross to me.

[Guest]

10 hours ago, Prelude said:

I don’t know if I can get a real sense of how Kaladin is in a relationship. I don’t recall seeing him actively pursing a relationship with either of his previous love interests. He certainly doesn’t do so with Shallan. I’m not sure if he would of even if Andolin was not in the picture. He doesn’t seem very aggressive in that regard. How does he enter into a relationship? 

I don't know... How does one enter a relationship? Sure, you can enter one out of necessity, like Shallan and Adolin do, or sometimes it just happens. The problem Kaladin has is, that he has a burden of having too many feelings for the dead (symbolized by Tien's stone), so he can't really have feelings for the living. Everyone only has limited emotional capacity, sadly. Of course, his depression doesn't help either, because it often comes with a whopping dollop of lowered self-esteem.

[Dreamstorm]

First, happy new year everyone!!  Just as a general point, I am extremely happy with OB, and I think a lot of it is because these things which rightfully bug everyone as dropped/unexplored plot points, I think will be picked back up in the next book.  Off the top of my head this includes - Adolin killing Sadeas, Kaladin killing Heleran, Shallan not accepting her last truth, Kaladin's 4th oath, Shallan's multiple personality issues - and of course the romance issues - stilted wedding for Shallan and Adolin, Kaladin and Shallan abruptly pushing aside their feelings.  I see OB as a book where we readers learn a lot about the world through the trio - Urithiru, Unmade, voidbringers and their army, Shadesmar, lots of spren lore - but the trio is a vector for learning these things without much character growth.  But because of my (maybe misplaced!) faith that these will be picked back up, I don't see them as negatives.  But I know others feel differently!

On 12/31/2017 at 11:08 AM, maxal said:

Well, with my previous commentary, I did not mean incoherent from the previous books, but incoherent within the same book. What I meant by it is we first see Adolin being very troubled by having murdered Sadeas, he is very emotive, stressed out, disturbed, then as we move into part 1, those aspects of the character disappear. We know the Adolin viewpoints, in part 1, were added after the beta read and I think it shows: they clash with the rest of the narrative. They introduce reactions into the character, but there is no follow-up. As I was reading part 1, I first was really excited because I felt the story was panning out to be awesome, but I progressively lost my enthusiasm as all Adolin related character aspects introduced early on were dropped. My feeling were the character was sinking into the background and I felt the story broke the continuity in terms of elements having already been introduced. Then, the character disappears for about 500 pages and when he comes back, he is not the same. He is cheery, he no longer is stressed out and he is used as comical relief. This is what I felt created an incoherent story arc.

This is a really good point.  I hadn't thought about it this way, because when we do finally get Adolin again, he is engaged in distracting action (distracting for him emotionally), so it makes sense he isn't as emotive about the Sadeas murder.  He does think about it often, but you are correct that it's a bit discordant with intensity of the emotion we see in those first two viewpoints.  Now that you point it out, I can see how these viewpoints feel added after the fact.

On 12/31/2017 at 3:27 PM, maxal said:

This is one problem. Adolin's character was built around his inability to form meaningful relationships, but once we reach OB, this becomes non-existent. Sure, there is this one conversation where Adolin genuinely admits his weakness, something he never does, and then it disappears. You cannot spend two books building up a character flaw only to let it vanish by using the old trope of "he hadn't found the right one yet". 

I have a very different view on Adolin's romantic relationship weakness, which is that I think he's engaging in the same behavior which would drive women away in the past, but Shallan is more dedicated to making it work (she needs Adolin after all - first for her own security then later as an emotional crutch) and so she is fine with that behavior/idealizes Adolin in her head to compensate for it.  What were two cute moments in OB - Adolin teaching Shallan the sword and taking her to meet Ialai - echo when he took Janala on the strap cutting investigation.  Shallan reacts differently (though note she really didn't want to learn the sword, but Adolin pushed for it), but it's still Adolin engaging a girl in things he likes, not vice versa.  (Note I don't think anything is wrong with this, but it's presented as part of his "courting issue" in WoK.)  In his own PoVs, he's not that thoughtful towards Shallan (more thoughtful about Kaladin for instance), and we're shown that's he's phoning in one of his cheesy lines of praise.  The one thing which does seem to be dropped is Adolin's flirting, though since we mostly see Shallan's viewpoints, we can't rule out that he still is being flirty/looky but she chooses to shut that out.  I think Adolin's "relationship issues" will come to the forefront next book as part of the disintegration of the Adolin/Shallan marriage.  I realize you have a different perspective on this which is fine!  But this is why what you see as a dropped character point, I see as a point which is simmering below the surface.

22 hours ago, SLNC said:

23 hours ago, Mistbornwithakitty said:

It can be safely said, that Shallan and Kaladin didn’t have many moments together in the first place.  The closest they came to really bonding was in the chasms in WoR.  Even then, it was just two desperate people confiding in each other.  I can tell you from experience that it’s easier to tell a stranger your secrets than someone you know; less risky for the heart.  Did they really hang out after that?  Follow up on talking about that experience?  No.  They both kind of kicked it under the rug.  So, no real personal bonding ever happened (unless it happened off screen, which I doubt).  Yes, they were witty when shoved into the same room, but they were hardly ever serious with each other.

Yup. Agreed. And I could absolutely understand Shallan's decision, if she and Adolin went through any emotional bonding whatsoever. They didn't. They feel comfortable around each other and like to cuddle and stuff, but I just don't see any real emotional investment. Just necessity. Nothing really naturally evolved, they are at a standstill. Even worse, they are trying so hard to be cute and so 'in love', when it just turns into a giant cringefest, which even brings Teshav to roll her eyes. It just feels so forced.

Shallan and Kaladin don't really feel like that. I don't think, that them confiding in each other was out of desperation, since they were relatively save in the alcove at that point. They didn't have a real reason to do it, but they did. Natural evolution of their relationship with each other.

So I'm going to disagree with you guys that Shallan and Kaladin didn't have any bonding moments besides the chasms.  @Mistbornwithakitty (awesome name btw) I agree that being forced into a desperate situation can create a "false" sense of a bond.  After this desperate situation, I think you can get a distancing between the two people or you can get an increased closeness.  Even though it's not shoved in our face, I think we get the latter.  (Note, I'm not looking at this from a romantic perspective, but instead just from interpersonal closeness.)  Once Kaladin comes back from Alethkar, Shallan decides to have him take her flying to draw Urithiru, so she's choosing to spend time with him.  Kaladin chooses Shallan to accompany him to Thaylen City although he had other options who made more sense, most notably Renarin.  We also have hints of conversations they have in this part (discussing Gaz for instance.)  These are not "soul baring" moments, but they are two people who are choosing to spend time and interact when prior to the chasms they did not do so.  (And it's not just because they are Radiants; Shallan and Renarin don't get closer for instance.)  By the time we get to Kholinar, Shallan and Kaladin are working well together and seem to understand each other well - there are multiple times when Kaladin will raise eyebrow or give Shallan a look, and she'll get what he's conveying and vice versa (we see this from Shallan's PoV, for example after she exposes her safehand and prior to going into the Kholinar palace, and from Kaladin's PoV, for example in the winehouse waiting out the Everstorm.)  Again, these are not romantic moments, but we see two people who are getting to know each other better such that they are able to read each other's emotions and expressions.  We get a little throwaway moment at the very end where Shallan notes, "She'd seen how envious he's been as he'd watched those Fused, with their flowing robes, moving like the winds."  Again, it's not dramatic emotion, but she knows him well enough to recognize his emotions and understand how he's feeling.  Bottom line, at the end of WoR they had just come out of the chasms after a forced bonding moment but didn't know each other beyond that moment.  By the end of OB, I would call them very firmly friends.  (In fact, Kaladin might be the closest human to Shallan other than Adolin by the end of OB?  Her relationship with Jasnah is stilted and very much a wardship rather than a friendship, and while her relationship with her men develops, it also seems strongly an employee/employee relationship.)

23 hours ago, maxal said:

And when Shallan goes into a tunnel to confront Re-Shephir, it was under-whelming. It was just Adolin hacking through the creature while Shallan touches it and makes it go away. Where was the tension? Where was the claustrophobia? Where was the fear?

Re-Shephir was the most disappointing opponent ever and it literally ruined the tension the early book had manage to create.

I saw this totally differently!  I thought this was the moment where we see a Shallan who fully accepts herself and an idea of the power she could possess.  If she could just be the girl who is willing to show her safehand (put aside her prim, Vorin upbringing) she would have the power to throw back monsters.  (We know from WoB, that the fact it was the safehand didn't impact Shallan beating Re-Shephir, but I think the fact Shallan was willing to expose it is very symbolic for her character.)  She does in fact repel Re-Shephir in the moment where she remembers the full her.  But instead of embracing that whole, powerful self, she once again chooses to shove down her secrets, and we end up with a weak girl who takes a week of pampering and tea drinking to get off the couch. 

19 hours ago, Prelude said:

I don’t know if I can get a real sense of how Kaladin is in a relationship. I don’t recall seeing him actively pursing a relationship with either of his previous love interests. He certainly doesn’t do so with Shallan. I’m not sure if he would of even if Andolin was not in the picture. He doesn’t seem very aggressive in that regard. How does he enter into a relationship? 

In his defense, he went off to a male-dominated army at 15, Tien died, became famous with the spear so Tarah pursued him (he muses he would never have met Tarah without his reputation), dated her for a year, then shortly afterwards killed Heleran and was made a slave, ran in a bridge crew and then lived with a bunch of dudes.  He's only 20!  He's had a year-long relationship which is more than a lot of 20 year olds can say.  I don't think he's very proactive or smart with women, but I also don't think that's uncommon for young adult males; they are all a bit dunces when it comes to romance 

[Vissy]

As a sidenote, it's very interesting how this thread started as a general criticism (and perhaps ultra-optimistic) view on the romantic arc / love triangle, and grew into a general criticism of Oathbringer from the massive disappointment and (IMO) failure of writing a good character arc also known as Adolin, to the of course titular love triangle failure. I really don't know if Brandon meant this to be so divisive. What if he genuinely thought that this was a good way to write their arcs? I'm not sure if we can trust him to follow his foreshadowing if that is the case. 

[maxal]

8 minutes ago, Vissy said:

As a sidenote, it's very interesting how this thread started as a general criticism (and perhaps ultra-optimistic) view on the romantic arc / love triangle, and grew into a general criticism of Oathbringer from the massive disappointment and (IMO) failure of writing a good character arc also known as Adolin, to the of course titular love triangle failure. I really don't know if Brandon meant this to be so divisive. What if he genuinely thought that this was a good way to write their arcs? I'm not sure if we can trust him to follow his foreshadowing if that is the case. 

I would love to head Brandon Sanderson comments on the matter. My thoughts are he would disagree with the critics.

[Prelude]

@Dreamstorm yes my assessment. I didn’t remember the part about Tarah very helpful. I really don’t think Kaladin is a man who pursues relationships. It’s not him. So he must be chased!  ( totally my type lol)) 

[analyticaposteriori]

43 minutes ago, Vissy said:

As a sidenote, it's very interesting how this thread started as a general criticism (and perhaps ultra-optimistic) view on the romantic arc / love triangle, and grew into a general criticism of Oathbringer from the massive disappointment and (IMO) failure of writing a good character arc also known as Adolin, to the of course titular love triangle failure. I really don't know if Brandon meant this to be so divisive. What if he genuinely thought that this was a good way to write their arcs? I'm not sure if we can trust him to follow his foreshadowing if that is the case. 

Well, much of this thread can be boiled down to questioning Brandon's intentions.

However some of the structural choices he has made for the entire series (the need for changing flashback PoVs, the messy structure of "3 novels + flashback novel, a novelette and a bunch of short stories all in one book", the planned timeskips) are starting to bite him in the chull and I imagine it's only going to get worse. Personally I can't imagine a world in which I am going to care about Eshonai or Szeth flashbacks and if those books are as structurally messy as OB...

These choices naturally make me question what I should expect from BS in other aspects of his writing too - should I pay attention to the foreshadowings shown in this and other threads or is their presence in the text unintentional, merely a result of sloppy writing that came out of the same place as the sloppy structural mistakes?

Edited January 2, 2018 by analyticaposteriori

[Dreamstorm]

48 minutes ago, Vissy said:

As a sidenote, it's very interesting how this thread started as a general criticism (and perhaps ultra-optimistic) view on the romantic arc / love triangle, and grew into a general criticism of Oathbringer from the massive disappointment and (IMO) failure of writing a good character arc also known as Adolin, to the of course titular love triangle failure. I really don't know if Brandon meant this to be so divisive. What if he genuinely thought that this was a good way to write their arcs? I'm not sure if we can trust him to follow his foreshadowing if that is the case. 

As far as Shalladin vs. Shadolin, I think he meant it to be divisive - probably not the "I'm going to bite your head off for talking about it on the forums" kind of divisive, but he did mention in his reddit post that he expected the love triangle "resolution" to be a major source of fan discussion, so it seems as though he wanted it to be debated.  On a more meta-level, Shalladin vs. Shadolin is divisive in-world to Shallan as a character, so it's actually good writing for it to come across as divisive; we in the fandom are personifying her inner struggle.  (Part of why I think the fact it was rushed and jarring was intentional.)

As far as Adolin, I do agree that Brandon seems to have missed the mark as far as what fans want to see.  I'm guessing he felt that having Adolin have a nice book without major struggles and the yay! of the Maya arc would be satisfying for most fans.  I think if he was asked why Adolin didn't get more development, he would likely say "wait and see what happens in the next books."  But, I do think he missed the mark as far as expectations and what was delivered in this book for Adolin's character; he just didn't meet fan's expectations, because fans wanted to see something more from Adolin given the WoR ending.

32 minutes ago, analyticaposteriori said:

However some of the structural choices he has made for the entire series (the need for changing flashback PoVs, the messy structure of "3 novels + flashback novel, a novelette and a bunch of short stories all in one book", the planned timeskips) are starting to bite him in the chull and I imagine it's only going to get worse. Personally I can't imagine a world in which I am going to care about Eshonai or Szeth flashbacks and if those books are as structurally messy as OB...

These choices naturally make me question what I should expect from BS in other aspects of his writing too - should I pay attention to the foreshadowings shown in this and other threads or is their presence in the text unintentional, merely a result of sloppy writing that came out of the same place as the sloppy structural mistakes?

Brandon has said he knows the structure is complicated and would be off-putting - in fact the series wasn't started until he had established himself for that reason.  (See WoB below.  It's long so I excerpted the part about how when he wrote it he was purposely going against convention.)  Does that mean it's going to work?  Definitely not.  But, I do think there is a plan.  Whether that plan ends up working for any given reader, or even for a majority of fans, is a question, but I don't believe it's sloppiness (i.e. we can trust the foreshadowing, we can trust things mean things), it's just what he thinks is interesting and different might not resonate with fans.

Quote

And so I was in a funk and I finally just said, "You know what? Screw it, I'm gonna write the biggest, baddest, most awesome book that I can!" They say they're too [long], this is gonna be twice as long! They say that worlds are too weird, I'm gonna do the weirdest world that I've always wanted to do. I'm gonna write the type of fantasy book that nobody's writing that I wish they would write. And I'm gonna break all these rules that say 'Oh don't do flashbacks'. Screw you, I'm gonna put flashbacks in every book! They say 'Don't do prologues', screw you, I'm doing three prologues!" *laughter* It really does, because Way of Kings starts with the Heralds. Prologue. Then it goes to Szeth. Prologue. And then it goes to the viewpoint of the guy in Kaladin's squad. Also a prologue. And then it jumps like eight months and then we start the story. I did all the stuff they told me not to do because I just wanted to make the biggest, most coolest and baddest epic I could-- bad in a good term.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/5-dragoncon-2016/#e3228

@Prelude here's the quote if you want it.  A nice bit of introspection about being famous.  Also could be read as a meta-reflection by Brandon himself, apropos to this discussion 

Quote

Storms.  How was it that Elhokar could give a compliment and yet be insulting at the same time?  Kaladin felt a weight at hearing words that reminded him of his days in Amaram's army, back when people had first started talking about him, expecting things from him.

Those rumors had become a challenge, creating for everyone the notion of a man who was like Kaladin, but at the same time greater than he could ever be.  He'd used that fictional man, relied upon him, to equip his team and to get soldiers transferred to his squad.  Without it, he'd never have met Tarah.  It was useful to have a reputation, so long as it didn't crush you.

OB, Ch. 61, Nightmare Made Manifest

 

[MonsterMetroid]

1 hour ago, Vissy said:

As a sidenote, it's very interesting how this thread started as a general criticism (and perhaps ultra-optimistic) view on the romantic arc / love triangle, and grew into a general criticism of Oathbringer from the massive disappointment and (IMO) failure of writing a good character arc also known as Adolin, to the of course titular love triangle failure. I really don't know if Brandon meant this to be so divisive. What if he genuinely thought that this was a good way to write their arcs? I'm not sure if we can trust him to follow his foreshadowing if that is the case. 

Reading the latest comments I was thinking the same thing like... "wait what are we talking about now?" someday I hope people just start a new thread so I can stop seeing this one but I guess I'm not helping either.

I think with Adolin though he did this intentionally, it might have been after beta readers went through it but as @Prelude said Oathbringer had a lot of bloat and brandon has always said he wanted his viewpoint characters to be manageable in size and not creep up to un-manageable like WoT, so Adolin got the short end of the stick this round. I bet we will see much more of him next book though.

23 hours ago, wotbibliophile said:

This seems to be a trend with Sanderson. His male characters seem totally uninterested in sex. His female characters are more interested. I think this has been the case in all of his books. It makes me go hmmmm this is rather unrealistic. It makes me laugh. I'm talking specifically his main male and female characters. 

I think this mainly comes from his (and also mine) religious background. It isn't that they are uninterested in sex, it's more that you can infer as little or as much as you want to. Just because it doesn't go into excessive detail (Looking at you "Wise Man's Fear"), doesn't mean that stuff doesn't happen off screen. But hey that's just me, maybe some people want this to turn into Alethi High Epics

On 1/1/2018 at 8:23 AM, Mistbornwithakitty said:

Of course, I’m not completely pleased with it, but on further thought, I can see why she chose Adolin.  As for Shallan and Kaladin getting together later on...I doubt it.  But that's another big, long, rambling post.  

If you want to you should post your thought here I would be interested in hearing it! 

 

Edited January 2, 2018 by MonsterMetroid
added final comment

[Guest]

6 hours ago, Dreamstorm said:

I saw this totally differently!  I thought this was the moment where we see a Shallan who fully accepts herself and an idea of the power she could possess.  If she could just be the girl who is willing to show her safehand (put aside her prim, Vorin upbringing) she would have the power to throw back monsters.  (We know from WoB, that the fact it was the safehand didn't impact Shallan beating Re-Shephir, but I think the fact Shallan was willing to expose it is very symbolic for her character.)  She does in fact repel Re-Shephir in the moment where she remembers the full her.  But instead of embracing that whole, powerful self, she once again chooses to shove down her secrets, and we end up with a weak girl who takes a week of pampering and tea drinking to get off the couch. 

So. Much. Agreement.

In that scene, we have seen what Shallan could be. I think, that she was on the way there, but yeah, that Fourth Ideal hit her hard. 

[Vissy]

This book felt more like Brandon just losing the plot, honestly. I guess we'll see next book. But the way he handled Adolin, it's not something that can be reversed. He can't just suddenly start in Book 4 to start doing everything he should've done during OB. It's wasted potential for a character that could've been good, but is now instead just flat. A Gary Stu at worst.

[wotbibliophile]

@MonsterMetroid  I am not sure I agree. It is an interesting thought that you can infer as much or as little as you want, but look at what is written.

Just in SA:

Navani pursues Dalinar. In OB Navani wants to have sex Dalinar wants to get married. Shallan is the one who kisses Adolin every time. Syl points out the ardent has a crush on Kaladin so Kaladin says they can't get married and Syl says the ardent is not thinking of marriage. (lol I thought that was funny). That's two women the ardent and Syl that think about sex while Kaladin does not. Then Shallan gets the line about getting married to have sex. Not getting too physical without oaths. Something like that.

 

In Elantris:

I can't remember their names but the main characters get to know each other and like each other and get married then the female gets the line about having sex.

In Warbreaker:

Well this one is a little creepy since one of them is mentally developed enough to think about sex and the other is not, still the divide is female and male, respectively.

In the first mistborn trilogy:

It's possible Elend thinks about sex more than Vin, but since it is almost completely absent from both of them it is a hard call. This one I will grant you the sex is absent because of Sanderson's religious background.

In the Wax/Wayne series:

I'd say Wax/Marasi/Steris are all interested in sex. However, Wax is grieving through most of the books so this is the only time I think it is legit that the man is thinking about sex less than the women.

Those are all the Sanderson books I've read. Sorry for talking about sex so much. It does bother me just a bit though.

ETA: I feel really ridiculous that I wrote this. I do not want to read explicit sex scenes at all. They almost always make me uncomfortable. It is just that Sanderson's male characters seem a bit inhuman to me. I just need one line really that the men are interested. 

Edited January 2, 2018 by wotbibliophile

[maxal]

7 hours ago, Dreamstorm said:

First, happy new year everyone!!  Just as a general point, I am extremely happy with OB, and I think a lot of it is because these things which rightfully bug everyone as dropped/unexplored plot points, I think will be picked back up in the next book.  Off the top of my head this includes - Adolin killing Sadeas, Kaladin killing Heleran, Shallan not accepting her last truth, Kaladin's 4th oath, Shallan's multiple personality issues - and of course the romance issues - stilted wedding for Shallan and Adolin, Kaladin and Shallan abruptly pushing aside their feelings.  I see OB as a book where we readers learn a lot about the world through the trio - Urithiru, Unmade, voidbringers and their army, Shadesmar, lots of spren lore - but the trio is a vector for learning these things without much character growth.  But because of my (maybe misplaced!) faith that these will be picked back up, I don't see them as negatives.  But I know others feel differently!

While there are story arcs I certainly believe are not over and will eventually wrap around in a satisfying manner, such as Kaladin's 4th oath, I also believe other story arcs are done and gone. Among those are Adolin killing Sadeas, Helaran and the romance. I do not say this last one with the intention to start an argument: I respect the argument others want to have, but I do not personally believe in it. I believe Brandon intends for the romance arc to have reached its conclusion with OB: the fact some readers are not finding it satisfying is not going to make him change his plans, IMHO. Of course, we can expect some bumps and lumps within the Adolin/Shallan relationship, but I doubt the worst predictions will come anywhere near close to realizing themselves. This is IMHO and not meant as a disrespect towards other conversation ongoing within this thread, ust my two cents.

Also, while it is clear we were meant to see a lot of the world in OB, I found the world-building was less interesting within this book than the previous ones. The Shattered Plains was an amazing setting. Uritihiru was a mysterious city, but we didn't get to see much of it besides this boring column. Kholinar, Shadesmar, none of these locations were really explored enough in manner which served to really make them interesting, still IMHO. I however also believe, when it comes to world-building, well, future books will pick it up.

So yes, some things will be better done, more completed and feel more satisfying with book 4: world-building, probably Shallan's personality issue, Kaladin, but honestly hoping Brandon will rescue Adolin's character, at this point in time, is a road paved with good intentions. It is unlikely to happen.

I appreciate your optimist, but I have been there. If OB didn't serve as a pretext to write a more developed Adolin, after the ending he got in WoR, then how can we hope for more in book 4, considering he has been shoe-horned as the Highprince?

7 hours ago, Dreamstorm said:

This is a really good point.  I hadn't thought about it this way, because when we do finally get Adolin again, he is engaged in distracting action (distracting for him emotionally), so it makes sense he isn't as emotive about the Sadeas murder.  He does think about it often, but you are correct that it's a bit discordant with intensity of the emotion we see in those first two viewpoints.  Now that you point it out, I can see how these viewpoints feel added after the fact.

If I read my comments during the serialization, this is exactly how I felt: I started being super excited and then I lost enthusiasm as it became clear Brandon was not going where I wanted him to go. I wouldn't have mind it, had he come up with another unexpected fully satisfying arc, but he didn't. 

Adolin first started to have a reaction, but it is dropped as it stopped being convenient.

7 hours ago, Dreamstorm said:

I have a very different view on Adolin's romantic relationship weakness, which is that I think he's engaging in the same behavior which would drive women away in the past, but Shallan is more dedicated to making it work (she needs Adolin after all - first for her own security then later as an emotional crutch) and so she is fine with that behavior/idealizes Adolin in her head to compensate for it.  What were two cute moments in OB - Adolin teaching Shallan the sword and taking her to meet Ialai - echo when he took Janala on the strap cutting investigation.  Shallan reacts differently (though note she really didn't want to learn the sword, but Adolin pushed for it), but it's still Adolin engaging a girl in things he likes, not vice versa.  (Note I don't think anything is wrong with this, but it's presented as part of his "courting issue" in WoK.)  In his own PoVs, he's not that thoughtful towards Shallan (more thoughtful about Kaladin for instance), and we're shown that's he's phoning in one of his cheesy lines of praise.  The one thing which does seem to be dropped is Adolin's flirting, though since we mostly see Shallan's viewpoints, we can't rule out that he still is being flirty/looky but she chooses to shut that out.  I think Adolin's "relationship issues" will come to the forefront next book as part of the disintegration of the Adolin/Shallan marriage.  I realize you have a different perspective on this which is fine!  But this is why what you see as a dropped character point, I see as a point which is simmering below the surface.

WoB and Brandon said Adolin failed at so many courtships because he never thought he was good enough and, as a result, would always find a way to run away, unconsciously. The behaviors he had which served to drive the women away were unconscious: it was him finding new ways to get rid of his date. Him trying to find activities to do with Shallan wasn't him repeating bad behavior, it was him genuinely trying to make it work. I do think this is how we are supposed to read it.

Adolin never loved any of the other girls and his lack of self-confidence made him run away from every relationship. Then he fell in love with Shallan, so he tried his best to make it work, up until he realizes, despite his best effort, he still isn't good enough, so he backs away. Shallan refuses and there was the end of this story arc.

Adolin is not longer flirty because he doesn't want to run away from Shallan, not until he sees how she looks at Kaladin. 

I do think this is what we are supposed to get from the story, but the lack of Adolin's viewpoint makes it less interesting and not really satisfying.

3 hours ago, analyticaposteriori said:

Well, much of this thread can be boiled down to questioning Brandon's intentions.

However some of the structural choices he has made for the entire series (the need for changing flashback PoVs, the messy structure of "3 novels + flashback novel, a novelette and a bunch of short stories all in one book", the planned timeskips) are starting to bite him in the chull and I imagine it's only going to get worse. Personally I can't imagine a world in which I am going to care about Eshonai or Szeth flashbacks and if those books are as structurally messy as OB...

These choices naturally make me question what I should expect from BS in other aspects of his writing too - should I pay attention to the foreshadowings shown in this and other threads or is their presence in the text unintentional, merely a result of sloppy writing that came out of the same place as the sloppy structural mistakes?

I don't think the structural choices are to blame, I find the overall structure Brandon has in mind is actually interesting: it is different. My critic on it would be the fact Brandon will not allow more than three main character per book and these characters are the only one I consider have sufficient page time for decent development. A tertiary character like Adolin is not allowed more than 20K words within any given book whereas main characters get in between 80K to 150K words. I find the discrepancy in between the two too extreme. 

It makes up for a narrative where only three characters are fleshed out, the other ones, not really and some a character not getting his own book ever, well chances of a decent story arc range in between void to null.

2 hours ago, Dreamstorm said:

As far as Adolin, I do agree that Brandon seems to have missed the mark as far as what fans want to see.  I'm guessing he felt that having Adolin have a nice book without major struggles and the yay! of the Maya arc would be satisfying for most fans.  I think if he was asked why Adolin didn't get more development, he would likely say "wait and see what happens in the next books."  But, I do think he missed the mark as far as expectations and what was delivered in this book for Adolin's character; he just didn't meet fan's expectations, because fans wanted to see something more from Adolin given the WoR ending.

While I do tent to think like you, I also need to raise another question: "Is it Brandon whom missed the mark when it came to Adolin's character or is it the readers whom came to expect too much out of an obviously minor character?". 

Brandon never said Adolin would get a bigger story arc. In fact, he said Adolin was less interesting than Renarin because he was not secretive nor an introvert. He also said Adolin was important as he was the "normal steady guy" within the story.

So who's to blame?

My personal thoughts are Brandon is guilty of having written a narrative which strongly suggested a lot more for Adolin then was he was willing to write. He is also guilty of not having settle the score in interviews and he is guilty of not having answered to the huge amount of attention Adolin got in any of his OB updates. He could have killed the expectations, but he never seemed to be willing to do so: he allowed those readers to keep on expecting something, especially when he said Adolin was surprising, unexpected and interesting in OB.

Readers, on their side, are guilty of having thought a side character could get a bigger arc when it was clear and obvious the only characters allowed to get one were Dalinar/Kaladin/Shallan. And later one Szeth/Eshonai/Venli. And in the second half Jasnah/Lift/Renarin/Taln/Ash. 

55 minutes ago, Vissy said:

This book felt more like Brandon just losing the plot, honestly. I guess we'll see next book. But the way he handled Adolin, it's not something that can be reversed. He can't just suddenly start in Book 4 to start doing everything he should've done during OB. It's wasted potential for a character that could've been good, but is now instead just flat. A Gary Stu at worst.

I hate this word, but sadly yes. This is what Brandon wrote.

Edited January 2, 2018 by maxal

[Mistbornwithakitty]

Oh boy, there's so many things to respond to!!  Let's see if I can fit it all into one post!   

On ‎1‎/‎1‎/‎2018 at 5:26 PM, SLNC said:

Yup. Agreed. And I could absolutely understand Shallan's decision, if she and Adolin went through any emotional bonding whatsoever. They didn't. They feel comfortable around each other and like to cuddle and stuff, but I just don't see any real emotional investment. Just necessity. Nothing really naturally evolved, they are at a standstill. Even worse, they are trying so hard to be cute and so 'in love', when it just turns into a giant cringefest, which even brings Teshav to roll her eyes. It just feels so forced.

Shallan and Kaladin don't really feel like that. I don't think, that them confiding in each other was out of desperation, since they were relatively save in the alcove at that point. They didn't have a real reason to do it, but they did. Natural evolution of their relationship with each other.

I agree in part.  Shallan and Adolin do feel forced. I’m not converted to the “ship” that is Shadolin in any way really.  To me, it just makes sense that Shallan would go with him at this time in her life, not that he’s her soulmate.  Adolin is the guy that makes her feel like the best version of herself; even if she’s relying on him way too strongly right now (that “without you, I fade” line made my lunch come back up a little).  I’m sure she’ll have to face that sometime though.  I’ll be very disappointed if she doesn’t.

Although it is possible that the chasm scene might have caused a genuine connection, the two of them still did nothing about it.  It was a truly ground-breaking moment, but it was never followed up with anything else of substantial value.

On ‎1‎/‎1‎/‎2018 at 5:26 PM, SLNC said:

 

I don't know. Evidence points to Shallan not really being stable. Yes, she doesn't fracture further, but we have a WoB, that Shallan is not in control of her switching. Plus, how she keeps becoming Veil in front of Adolin. I don't know why she would consciously do that.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/256-oathbringer-london-signing/#e8699

Another thing to that. Like I already said. That whole marriage seems so forced and out of necessity. Adolin is happy, that he finally kept a girl and Shallan is happy, that she can use Adolin to anchor Shallan as her dominant personality, but are they really happy with each other? Is it really out of love? These were questions I've constantly been asking myself.

I'm not saying, that Kaladin would have been the better choice at the end of OB, but lets be honest: Adolin was constantly standing between them and when they finally talked with each other it ended in a lot of misunderstanding, because both of them were pretty much at their lowest points. While I'm not saying, that Adolin was actively trying to stand between them, he did so. Kaladin didn't act on his developing feelings, because of Adolin being causally betrothed to Shallan and Shallan pushed them away, because she was ashamed of even having them, being the good Vorin girl she is constantly telling herself she is... but is she really?

I think, Veil actually represents more of her real self, than she wants to acknowledge.

Especially when we look back at the blurb of WoK:

So, yeah. I think, that Shallan is just the facade, while Veil is actually the more character-defining part of the unfractured Shallan. We actually see this a lot in WoR.

 These are really interesting theories.  I would absolutely love to see a twist where Kaladin and Shallan actually end up together.  I just don't think it was for the best right at the moment.  Both of them seemed to emotionally raw/walled to ever truly make a good, earnest go at a relationship.  But maybe in a book or two.......? 

On ‎1‎/‎1‎/‎2018 at 10:42 PM, wotbibliophile said:

@Mistbornwithakitty  You make some good points. It is just that if that is what Sanderson meant to do, he still wrote it very badly. I do not believe Shallan made a healthy choice at the end of OB. There are two reasons for this. 1. She hates herself. I don't believe you can love someone (romantically) when you hate yourself; you just have nothing to give. 2. She is insane. She thinks she is three people. No sane person thinks this. At the end of OB when she talks to Veil and Radiant (just before the wedding) does she know she is talking to herself or does she believe she is talking to two other people (sort of like bride maids)? I think she doesn't know she is only talking to herself (there is no one else in the room after all). I could get behind Shallan's choice if I thought she chose out of a sense of well being instead I feel she is totally dependent on Adolin ("without you I fade") and that is a bit gross to me.

I agree that if you hate yourself, you can't have any real relationship, but I think Shallan is well on her way to thinking better of herself.  Adolin also helps her with that (not that it's healthy, it isn't). 

I don't think she's insane at all though!  Her different personalities help her deal with the stress of her crazy, crazy life.  It's a form of escapism, extreme though it may be.  I can personally attest to it being semi-normal.  I used to create different characters in a notebook and talk to myself hours on end growing up.  I would pretend I was them, until my mom dragged me out of my room for dinner.  I did this especially during my first years of highschool when stress was high.  I don't do this anymore (actually, I just call it "attempting to become an author" now), but I can assure you it caused me no mental harm!    I think Shallan needs to have someone who drags her back into herself until she can learn to do it on her own.  Right now she's being unhealthy with her escapism, but she'll learn to deal with the stress eventually.

But the line "without you I fade" grossed me out too.  I hate ooey-gooey stuff like that. 

7 hours ago, Dreamstorm said:

So I'm going to disagree with you guys that Shallan and Kaladin didn't have any bonding moments besides the chasms.  @Mistbornwithakitty (awesome name btw) I agree that being forced into a desperate situation can create a "false" sense of a bond.  After this desperate situation, I think you can get a distancing between the two people or you can get an increased closeness.  Even though it's not shoved in our face, I think we get the latter.  (Note, I'm not looking at this from a romantic perspective, but instead just from interpersonal closeness.)  Once Kaladin comes back from Alethkar, Shallan decides to have him take her flying to draw Urithiru, so she's choosing to spend time with him.  Kaladin chooses Shallan to accompany him to Thaylen City although he had other options who made more sense, most notably Renarin.  We also have hints of conversations they have in this part (discussing Gaz for instance.)  These are not "soul baring" moments, but they are two people who are choosing to spend time and interact when prior to the chasms they did not do so.  (And it's not just because they are Radiants; Shallan and Renarin don't get closer for instance.)  By the time we get to Kholinar, Shallan and Kaladin are working well together and seem to understand each other well - there are multiple times when Kaladin will raise eyebrow or give Shallan a look, and she'll get what he's conveying and vice versa (we see this from Shallan's PoV, for example after she exposes her safehand and prior to going into the Kholinar palace, and from Kaladin's PoV, for example in the winehouse waiting out the Everstorm.)  Again, these are not romantic moments, but we see two people who are getting to know each other better such that they are able to read each other's emotions and expressions.  We get a little throwaway moment at the very end where Shallan notes, "She'd seen how envious he's been as he'd watched those Fused, with their flowing robes, moving like the winds."  Again, it's not dramatic emotion, but she knows him well enough to recognize his emotions and understand how he's feeling.  Bottom line, at the end of WoR they had just come out of the chasms after a forced bonding moment but didn't know each other beyond that moment.  By the end of OB, I would call them very firmly friends.  (In fact, Kaladin might be the closest human to Shallan other than Adolin by the end of OB?  Her relationship with Jasnah is stilted and very much a wardship rather than a friendship, and while her relationship with her men develops, it also seems strongly an employee/employee relationship.)

Thank you!  Your name is really cool as well.     

Hmmmm...it is true that they chose to be around each other afterwards....that I see.  It's so understated though, I honestly forgot about it. lol.  I already need to re-read OB.   Yet they still didn't sit down and communicate anything of real value this book. Hanging out as friends is great for both of them I believe.  But I don't think it fostered anything to build a steadfast relationship on in this book.  I'm starting to think that maybe in a few books.....? 

2 hours ago, MonsterMetroid said:

If you want to you should post your thought here I would be interested in hearing it! 

 

 Oooohhhh...I'll be sure to look up that thread!  Looks right up my alley!    Thanks for shuffling it my way. 

Wow.  That was a mouthful.  Hope you're alive after reading this!