[OB] Adolin-Shallan-Kaladin Discussion

[Humming]

How she dare! Having feelings that are not towards Adolin!

[Greywatch]

I actually didn't have any problem with how Jasnah acted towards Shallan. More than that, if her ward, who had eagerly and enthusiastically agreed to an engagement with Jasnah's own younger cousin, who then started seeming interested in another man while not giving any indication of breaking off the engagement, I'd be concerned, too. If I had been in Jasnah's place and Adolin was my little cousin, I probably would've been harsher than Jasnah ended up being. This is Jasnah's own family who was being affected by how Shallan was behaving, and at the time, I'd taken it for granted that Jasnah feels responsible for Shallan's behaviour.

[Dreamstorm]

5 hours ago, Darvys said:

There's another thing i wanted to comment on, back when you guys were discussing Adolin's perspective, someone brought up the scene in Celebrant where he decides to go with Kaladin instead of Shallan, this is either an oddity as it was described, or it's aligned with Adolin's toughtfulness as he had his betrothed go with the only person in their company who was armed. Don't know how serious that discussion was, but felt like posting my interpretation anyway.

Go back and read just Adolin’s PoV’s throughout OB (ie skipping Shallan’s which is where we get the strong sense Adolin is so thoughtful.) Adolin doesn’t, well, think about Shallan much, so he’s not portrayed (by the author) as being particularly thoughtful with regards to her. On the first point, I don’t think we can take any scene from Adolin’s PoV as an oddity; we aren’t given many data points, and don’t forget every data point is intentional (placed there by the author.) If no regard was given to how this decision would appear, that’s sloppy (and I’ve personally decided to disregard the idea that Brandon is a sloppy writer in my analysis of the book - see below - though you may disagree in that regard) and if Brandon wanted to portray Adolin as having a thoughtfulness behind the decision then he could have easily done so - we are in Adolin’s head after all, so it’s easy to show his thought process (it would take a couple of words!) I totally agree Adolin not thinking much about Shallan feels really strange because Shallan is always telling us the opposite.  I think Shadolin as written is Set Up to Fail (chapter title with those two ), but I didn’t doubt the force of Adolin’s affectations until reading just his PoV’s all in a row. It was a real surprise to me as well!

Just a general comment on the whole romantic arc, once I dug into it (which I first did in an attempt to get behind the ending as my original thoughts upon reading were dissatisfaction, not in terms of the choice but how the choice was depicted) I kept feeling like I (not a writer at all and certainly not one of Brandon’s caliber even if I was) could have tweaked things here and there to strengthen Shadolin - how Shallan made her choice, the wording and imagery used, the pre-wedding scenes, the characters literal positioning, etc. - and since it appears this romantic arc was one of the things Brandon focused on the most in terms of getting the right point across (see his reddit post about it), I decided it had to be intentional. If I could make it stronger he reallyyyyy could have. Once I stopped trying to accept the ending as “final”, everything fell into place (and every new thing I discover keeps falling into place - like this Adolin thing.) So I get the inclination to insert or discard things here and there, but it just made me upset with how bad I saw the writing until I stopped doing so.  

[Vissy]

@Dreamstorm Set Up to Fail could also refer to Ialai and Mraize's appearance towards the end of the chapter. That being said, I think this is countered by Brandon's writing style. A *lot* of content was cut out of Oathbringer before its release, and this scene, heavy with Shallan-Adolin interactions from Shallan's viewpoint, made it in - and he usually doesn't include things for no reason.

[DeployParachute]

9 hours ago, TheWarriorPoet said:

This whole topic reminded me of a dialogue from G.I. Joe

"The world is about to end, and we are still fighting over the girl"

Seriously, this story have much more to offer then the love story, lets focus on those things. We will know who will get the girl at the end anyways 

I'm confused. This is a thread specifically dedicated to talking about the triangle and its resolution or lack thereof. There are plenty of other topics for you to discuss the other offerings of the narrative, which many of us go and do. 

Does it really bother you that much that so many people find this topic so interesting that they want to spend 64 pages engaging with other members of the community on it? 

We haven't forgotten about the other facets of the story. But while I can't speak for others, for me personally this romantic plot has the potential to demonstrate some of the best writing of the narrative on Brandon's part, or some of the worst. And I enjoy trying to figure out which one it's going to be.

Edited December 23, 2017 by DeployParachute

[Dreamstorm]

19 minutes ago, Vissy said:

@Dreamstorm Set Up to Fail could also refer to Ialai and Mraize's appearance towards the end of the chapter. That being said, I think this is countered by Brandon's writing style. A *lot* of content was cut out of Oathbringer before its release, and this scene, heavy with Shallan-Adolin interactions from Shallan's viewpoint, made it in - and he usually doesn't include things for no reason.

I'm actually not reading too much into things like that chapter title yet - it just happened to fit perfectly with how I feel about the couple, so I decided to use it, haha. (If I am correct that Shadolin will fail, then it would be a clever double meaning title, but like you point out it works just fine even if they don't.) 

I completely agree with you about non-wasted words/pages in general, so we should consider why any one scene was seen as important to include. This is part of the reason why in reading the preview chapters, I actually thought we were going to get a strong Shallan/Adolin ending based on all the relationship building. I was surprised by how much Kaladin came into the picture later in the book; I wasn't thinking it would build to much beyond Kaladin reluctantly pining for her. In retrospect, one of the strongest signs to me in part 1 of Kaladin's later involvement is that the dinner/sword fighting scene was split into two chapters with a small Kaladin chapter in between. The two Shallan chapters were a cohensive whole and there was no split needed from a cliffhanger perspective. (Brandon seems to not split scenes unless it's a cliffhanger, and even then he often puts the resolution of the cliffhanger in the subsequent chapter.) So why physically (in terms of the book) put Kaladin in the middle of one of the most relationship-bonding scenes we see of Shallan and Adolin? The Kaladin scene (his capture by the parshmen) could have gone after the complete Shallan/Adolin scene or even right before his next chapter (like what happens with the Roshone punch - cliffhanger then immediate resolution.) That stuck out to me. 

1 hour ago, DeployParachute said:

But while I can't speak for others, for me personally this romantic plot has the potential to demonstrate some of the best writing of the narrative on Brandon's part, or some of the worst. And I enjoy trying to figure out which one it's going to be.

This!!! If we're correct, there's so much nuance here that is fascinating. I'm currently obsessing right now over that thought from Shallan in Middlefest - "His own daughter was too precious to be wasted on something fickle, like her own powers of decision" - which just hammers it home Shallan's expected complete lack of agency in her marriage choice, and really sheds a negative light on the fact that she ended up going through with an arranged marriage. Even though there was theoretically a way she could have terminated the betrothal, when you're raised with the idea that your "own powers of decision" is "something fickle", of course you're going to look for others to make your choices for you (even to the extent of someone else choosing your dominant personality...) I don't care so much about the romantic choice as much as letting the writing have the depth I so badly want it to have!

[Vissy]

1 hour ago, Dreamstorm said:

I completely agree with you about non-wasted words/pages in general, so we should consider why any one scene was seen as important to include. This is part of the reason why in reading the preview chapters, I actually thought we were going to get a strong Shallan/Adolin ending based on all the relationship building. I was surprised by how much Kaladin came into the picture later in the book; I wasn't thinking it would build to much beyond Kaladin reluctantly pining for her. In retrospect, one of the strongest signs to me in part 1 of Kaladin's later involvement is that the dinner/sword fighting scene was split into two chapters with a small Kaladin chapter in between. The two Shallan chapters were a cohensive whole and there was no split needed from a cliffhanger perspective. (Brandon seems to not split scenes unless it's a cliffhanger, and even then he often puts the resolution of the cliffhanger in the subsequent chapter.) So why physically (in terms of the book) put Kaladin in the middle of one of the most relationship-bonding scenes we see of Shallan and Adolin? The Kaladin scene (his capture by the parshmen) could have gone after the complete Shallan/Adolin scene or even right before his next chapter (like what happens with the Roshone punch - cliffhanger then immediate resolution.) That stuck out to me. 

Totally this. Why did he interject a Kaladin chapter between those two Shallan/Adolin chapters? It's as if he's trying to convey through chapter placement the wedge Kaladin is driving between the former two's relationship, reminding the reader of Kaladin's existence right in the middle of a scene that is supposed to display great chemistry between Shallan and Adolin. I can't think of another reason for this specific ordering, other than to remind people "hey, Kaladin is part of this" and perhaps being a bit of a meta-nudge towards the triangle. 

Edited December 23, 2017 by Vissy

[BraidedRose]

I'm very late to be joining this thread (just consider me a stowaway on SS Shalladin) but I was only able to finish OB a week ago. As much as I enjoyed it I found myself so disappointed with the way this arc played out that I immediately went looking for other reactions to it and found myself here. Yes, I did go through all 65 pages (I skimmed some to be fair) and it took me a week, so I figured I should sign up and chime in for what it is worth after all of that. I absolutely appreciate the depth of discussion here and it has definitely changed my thinking and inspired me to start a careful re-read sooner (I probably would have put it off due to the let down otherwise). 

I have so many thoughts on this and there's so much to respond to that I won't even try to respond to specific posts but just try to touch on the major themes of this discussion and maybe raise a few new small points if I can. First, like many here I came out of WoR feeling that Shalladin had a lot more potential for depth and an interesting dynamic than Shadolin. The chasm sequence in particular won me over. On the other hand there seemed to be a fairly good set up for what could be a more balanced triangle, a legitimate case to be made for both pairings, and no bad guy involved. I was fully prepared for this issue not to be resolved in OB and nothing I read throughout led me to think it was at all likely, right up to the end. I had been slightly frustrated that several opportunities for Kaladin and Shallan to interact meaningfully after the chasms were brushed past, but mostly I spent the entire book extremely worried about Shallan (it was a toss up whether she or Dalinar gave me more anxiety this book). So when the resolution came it was like getting whiplash and I was left with the impression that BS suddenly decided he'd made a mistake with this triangle and needed to end it ASAP. Not only that but it seemed he was trying to tie it up in the neatest bow possible by having Kaladin deny any feelings (which lowers the stakes for everyone and just felt cheap). It made me really doubt his ability to write a complex love story, but fortunately now I am second guessing that initial impression. 

1. Is this really the end of Kaladin's part in Shallan's romantic arc:
   • This is hard for me to answer still. It think it really comes down to how much trust we have in Brandon to write a difficult romantic storyline. His other works (and I haven't read them all) tend to go for more straightforward romantic narratives and he definitely favors pairings similar to Shallan and Adolin. But several of the WoB quotes many of you pointed out are encouraging: the braided roses (obviously I liked that one) and especially the way he talks about foreshadowing and "breaking promises" to the reader (I wish I had the exact quote on that one). The foreshadowing is clearly there for Shalladin and so far I just can't see how we've been given something even better that would justify breaking that promise. In text I think the two big things that make me doubt he really meant this to be the happy resolution it appears to be for some are her interactions with Wit and Pattern throughout OB, more on those below. 
2. How could/should this be resolved:
   • Best case scenario for me I think is we start by exploring the fact that Shallan's bond to Pattern is in trouble and she is near to killing him again. I think most powerful would be her recognizing that her creation of personaShallon as the perfect wife to Adolin and that alt's dominance over the others is a lie that directly threatens her oaths. Basically it would be a trigger that forces her to finally reintegrate her self but this also causes a revelation that her rush to marry Adolin was not a decision made by trueShallan and in fact, Adolin does not actually know her (as others have said, not his fault but hers). Personally I think if her vows to Adolin were not made by her integrated self they are not really valid. If Shadolin really are end game I suppose their relationship could be repaired from there, but I think more fitting would be for it to cause a split. I would rather not see Adolin's death come first, if he is going to die, I really want it to happen after Shallan's reintegration and some sort of clarity about their relationship. It think it would actually be interesting to see BS tackle something that is probably way out of his comfort zone, in this case a divorce, or more appropriately an annulment. I do think Brandon is a self aware writer and so best case scenario he is deliberately trying to push himself to grow in writing more complex romantic stories (my only worry is that he might think he already did that by subverting expectations/foreshadowing with Shalladin not playing out as expected).
3. On Shallan's mental illness:
   • I appreciate the info people have shared about OSDD and I think it extremely likely that BS did do his research on the real world parallel. The way he seems to be handling characters with depression and addiction speaks well of how he would handle a character with OSDD and the interactions with Wit adds even more evidence for this as Wit seems to offer her appropriate guidance on only being one person. Shallan just clearly isn't ready to accept that. This gives me hope that we aren't really supposed to accept Shallan being dependent on any other person for her mental stability in the long run. If we are supposed to believe that her marriage to Adolin is at this point a positive thing, we would have to accept that her requiring his presence to not "fade" is also a good thing, and that is beyond distasteful to me. This also makes me look at her decision to marry as, in part, an overreaction to Veil and Radiant finally agreeing on Kaladin. It would seem she is not ready to face any feelings she may have for Kaladin and that has partially fueled her disintegration and created some of the desperation that comes in response to Adolin's offer to step aside.
4. Adolin's characterization and where he goes from here:
   • Adolin is tough for me to really pin down. I like him, but as a viewpoint character he is very externally focused and does very little self reflection. The analysis of his thoughts about Shallan vs Kaladin was fascinating. I suspect there really isn't much textual support for this, but my gut sense is that Adolin is settled on Shallan not out of a strong love for her but because he sees her as exceptional. What I mean by this is we have a character who was set up as having a long series of short, not very meaningful, failed interactions with women and Adolin does seem to have some concern about his abilities to be successful with relationships. My hunch is that a logical thing someone in this situation might tell themselves is that the problem would be solved if he finally meets a woman who was really different from all the others and could really capture and hold his interest. Shallan is different from the typical Alethi woman and a KR, she is exceptional in every way to Adolin and so I suspect that might be why he determines her to be the one. But he obviously has doubts about it or he wouldn't have offered to step aside and his lack of thought about her in his viewpoints as well as the discrepancies between what he thinks and says do make me doubt he is deeply in love. I think none of the three are at this point but I do see more potential for something deep between Shalladin. I think I am more in favor of Adolin reviving Maya and potentially becoming an ED than most people here, but I think it order for that to happen Adolin likely needs to be far more broken than he is now (perhaps the revelation about the "Shallan" he married vs trueShallan could be part of that). But you've all given me some things to think about in regards to him potentially going dark and there could be something to that. 
5. What happens during the break between books/Potential parenthood:
   • I'm really afraid that the one year gap might be to have a baby without seeing the pregnancy but Storms I hope not! I'm not opposed to there being a place for real world issues like parenting in epic fantasy and I'm in favor of female characters exploring multiple roles but can we please not pile more on top of Shallan at this point? A small OT point to add to this discussion, but many here commented on making a baby not being much of an accomplishment on its own but I will just say as someone who personally went through issues with infertility before finally having my son, for some of us that part feels like an accomplishment too.

Probably time to wrap up this wall of text so I will just add a couple other small thoughts I had. Does anyone else wonder if Shallan may have an alt she doesn't talk to who has been learning soulcasting? Only a few small hints towards that if I can recall but I am curious to look for that on re-read (among many, many other things now). Lastly, I haven't read all of BS's books, though I have read several others outside of SA and I can't think of any examples of relationships that really fit the braided roses theme he talked about. Is there one that comes to mind for anyone else?

Thanks to anyone who bothered to read all of this at this point in the thread!

[Info_Drone-0451]

4 hours ago, BraidedRose said:

...

Welcome! Did you actually go through the whole thread?! That's admirable. 

That was a lovely post and we're used to wall of texts around here. Also, I think that it can serve as a very accurate and comprehensive summery as well.

As for the thoughts expressed within, you probably know that they're shared by most people here, to varying degrees. Have you also read @Ailvara 's document? 

Anyway, I just wanted to welcome you. It's always so nice getting new people around here!

Edited December 24, 2017 by DimChatz

[insert_anagram_here]

8 hours ago, BraidedRose said:

Does anyone else wonder if Shallan may have an alt she doesn't talk to who has been learning soulcasting? Only a few small hints towards that if I can recall but I am curious to look for that on re-read (among many, many other things now).

@BraidedRose I loved your post, it's, indeed, a very good summary (as @DimChatz said already) of the most strong arguments expressed so far.

To answer your question, yes, I'm very suspicious that Shallan has indeed a hidden personality that we are not aware of, but it's mostly a personal theory of mine which I've only expressed to a real life friend. When I don my tin foil hat...

Spoiler

I'm actually suspicious that Shallan may not have been a Lightweaver originally, but this is her second nahel bond. This stems from the fact I'm not convinced that the very bright light, behind the painting (Location 6416 - Words of Radiance), is indeed Pattern. 

I've started re-reading from the first book and I've come to appreciate the huge amount of work Sanderson has put into these books. There is always something new to gain on a second read (in every storming chapter), because you are aware of a lot more information regarding Roshar and you are able to see additional meaning to all the small (and sometimes not so small) details. It's like you are shown many doors while you walk in a hallway, but the keys are given to you when you reach the end of the room. We are talking about 3k-4k pages here (still got 7 books to look forward too yay), so it's obviously not an easy task for a single person to find all these bits, much more so when that person is set on a specific theory that clouds their judgement. I understand that my own mind can fall for that same logical fallacy, that's why I try to use as much book references as possible to argue my point and theories. That's the main reason I appreciate this thread so much, because that is done here thoroughly.

 

 

Edited December 24, 2017 by insert_anagram_here
typos

[Bookblessed]

Okay so I was so shocked at how poorly the romance was handled in this book that I finally went and made myself an account to join the discussion, so hello everyone . I know I'm also very late to the party but I just finished the book yesterday (shipping to Poland took a while...). Anyway, if anyone's interested, here are my problems with this, in my opinion, awful love triangle:
 

1. It's so similar to what Sanderson has done in Mistborn and while I didn't like that one, I think it was still a lot better that what we got in Oathbringer. It goes like this: a woman is having problems with her self-esteem and herself in general, which causes her to swift towards the more "adventorous" man as opposed to the one that gives her stabilisation. When she's just about to choose the former, BANG! She has a realisation! Oh how stupid I was! And she comes running to the safe option and the whole relationship is now magically perfect despite having tons of problems just 5 pages ago. Except in Mistborn 

Spoiler

we actually see that Elend and Vin have a deep connection with each other and that they trust each other, which was the main reason Vin decided to stay with him. I don't think we see that in Oathbringer.

Adolin and Shallan are just in the process of getting to know each other and most of their interactions is well, tee-heeing, not anything deeper. Which brings me to my next point. 

2. The supposed reason why Shallan chooses Adolin is the most absurd one Sanderson could have come up with.  If it was something like "Adolin makes me happy" than ok, I might have been able to understand that because it actually makes sense. But Adolin knows me? Sorry, did I miss something other that your interactions being mailny... flirting? There are two scenes I believe where they actually talk about something deeper and both made me roll my eyes. One is in Shadesmar and it is basically:

"-Adolin, I have many personalities u kno
 -Shallan, that is weird. Also, I killed Sadeas
 -Oh I guess that's ok"

The other being the one when she actually chooses him and it is even worse:

"-Hello Adolin why so gloom
 -U like Kaladin
 -Well yeah. But I like u more cause u make me face my problems by saying "Shallan, no" in one deeper interaction in the entire book. So let's ignore that problem and get married
 -Oh ok"

There is nothing either in WoR or Oathbringer that indicates he knows her, on the contrary, based on the interactions in both books the knowing her argument would be the one Shalladin shippers would use the most because we have actually been given scenes with deep interactions between the two. So why make that the reason why she goes for Adolin? 

3. The scene between her and Adolin that I already mentioned above, when she chooses him. She says she likes Adolin because he makes her face her problems... again, where. Yes, he isn't comfortable with her having multiple personalities but where does he actually help her face the problem? By becoming drinking buddies with Veil and "somehow making it work"? This isn't you two having different tastes about furniture, this is a woman having different personalities take over her, it isn't just a thing one can compromise on. She needs actual help. The joke about how "every man wishes to have three brides u know" was so wrong, my god...
Also the scene between Kaladin and Shallan on the ship where he tells her that "Wow, you're just able to stuff it in the back of your head? I wish I could do that" and that is obviously used as an argument against him because that is supposed to mean that he doesn't make her face her problems like Adolin supposedly does. But he only gets told that she's able to shove the emotions away while to Adolin, in her moment of confusion between the personalities, she tells that she's shifting between a couple of people. It's just so unfair to Kaladin's character to imply that he wouldn't help her with a problem like this where the only thing he has done the entire three books is trying to help people. But I digress. 

4. The interactions between Shallan and Adolin after she chooses him. What... what is that? I've seen people defending it by saying "oh, it is how young people act, it is supposed to be written that way. you know- young love" and I've seen this argument brought up especially with the "You're beautiful" scene. I'm sorry, but I could defend the whole Twilight saga by using this argument. I'm about their age actually and I have not seen people act this stupid around each other.  It's like the whole book we are given a relationship that is ok at most and then suddenly she goes "Adolin knows me" and she is now so crazy about him that the only thing she can think about is their wedding night? And then there's the whole Veil drinking buddy thing... just...no. 

There are many other problems I have with this but other people have covered those aspects pretty well so I'll briefly mention them: the pacing was awful, the conclusion was rushed and the "gurll arranged marriage is awesome" got old - I'm a woman myself and for the love of god Brandon please stop doing that.
The only thing I can say I liked about it was Kaladin's reason for liking her - that she reminded him of Tien because she could just laugh despite the world crushing on her. That actually makes sense. If it was written more from his perspective, with him pursuing her and then realizing that he likes her because of this and then stepping back and also her having a more meaningfull relationship with Adolin along with realizing that she need stability... in my opinion it would've been so much better. 

I've seen many people saying that it was supposed to be that bad because Sanderson is not done with this relationship but I think I'll be the sceptical one and say that yes he is, and while he is one of my favourite writers I have to say that my theory about the whole thing is simply this: he has written it poorly and now we're stuck with it. That said if in the next book Shallan's POV starts with something like "Shallan was holding little Plotdevolin in her arms, thinking just how lucky she was. These days, Veil and Radiant have completely retreated." I think I'll go ahead and visit the Nightcrawler to ask to please remove all of Shallan's chapters from my memory.

[Info_Drone-0451]

@Bookblessed Welcome and thanks for joining us! Thanks for sharing your thoughts! 

8 minutes ago, Bookblessed said:

I've seen many people saying that it was supposed to be that bad because Sanderson is not done with this relationship but I think I'll be the sceptical one and say that yes he is, and while he is one of my favourite writers I have to say that my theory about the whole thing is simply this: he has written it poorly and now we're stuck with it. That said if in the next book Shallan's POV starts with something like "Shallan was holding little Plotdevolin in her arms, thinking just how lucky she was. These days, Veil and Radiant have completely retreated." I think I'll go ahead and visit the Nightcrawler to ask to please remove all of Shallan's chapters from my memory.

I'd like to adress this. I understand how you feel. I felt the same when I finished the book, as I think did many others. This thread helped to deal with it, given time. I hope it does the same for you, too. In the end it comes down to trusting BS. I think he knows what he's is doing, or at least I hope so. He hasn't disappointed me yet, not in that degree, so I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. I'd much rather spend the wait 'til next book being hopeful than not. But, yes, if the next book starts as you suggest it'll not do at all, to say the least. But until I see it I choose to believe that we're not stuck with it. That's what works for me though, and for you it's probably different and I am not trying to change your opinion or begrudge it, I'm just sharing my insight.

 

[Vissy]

I'm sure Brandon would love nothing more than to write another asinine arranged marriage just like the perfect little mormon he is, but I prefer to think (at least in my own headcanon) that he's a more self-aware writer than that. He didn't let his religious fundamentalism stop him from writing a few LGBT characters into his stories, or agreeing that Shallan is bi, or writing Jasnah and so on. And we've seen him tackle mental illnesses quite well in the past in his books. So I think it's more likely that Brandon intended for this resolution to stand out like it did. 

[Guest]

Hi everyone, and welcome to our newcomers.

1 hour ago, Bookblessed said:

There is nothing either in WoR or Oathbringer that indicates he knows her, on the contrary, based on the interactions in both books the knowing her argument would be the one Shalladin shippers would use the most because we have actually been given scenes with deep interactions between the two. So why make that the reason why she goes for Adolin? 

I think, that it is supposed to seem fishy. At least for us readers, who are more invested into this plotline. On the surface, it looks like an okay reason for her choice, but if you take a closer look it seems like chull dung. Especially @Dreamstorm s close look at Adolin PoVs and the discrepancy between his view on Shallan and how Shallan perceives him is astonishing.

http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/62422-ob-adolin-shallan-kaladin-discussion/?page=61#comment-656346

1 hour ago, Bookblessed said:

I've seen many people saying that it was supposed to be that bad because Sanderson is not done with this relationship but I think I'll be the sceptical one and say that yes he is, and while he is one of my favourite writers I have to say that my theory about the whole thing is simply this: he has written it poorly and now we're stuck with it. That said if in the next book Shallan's POV starts with something like "Shallan was holding little Plotdevolin in her arms, thinking just how lucky she was. These days, Veil and Radiant have completely retreated." I think I'll go ahead and visit the Nightcrawler to ask to please remove all of Shallan's chapters from my memory.

Give it a bit of time I was like this at the beginning as well, but man did these discussions here sway me.

If you'd like a summary of this thread, just go here: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1VqLjiUojkPqIfLJLyu7OnykTP3i-LG0f5f1KjRSJE6A/edit

1 hour ago, Bookblessed said:

The interactions between Shallan and Adolin after she chooses him. What... what is that? I've seen people defending it by saying "oh, it is how young people act, it is supposed to be written that way. you know- young love" and I've seen this argument brought up especially with the "You're beautiful" scene. I'm sorry, but I could defend the whole Twilight saga by using this argument. I'm about their age actually and I have not seen people act this stupid around each other.  It's like the whole book we are given a relationship that is ok at most and then suddenly she goes "Adolin knows me" and she is now so crazy about him that the only thing she can think about is their wedding night? And then there's the whole Veil drinking buddy thing... just...no. 

Yeah... this was just ugh. But I think, that is could be an indicator. They are trying to be romantic and cute, but it just turns out to be nauseating and cringy. They just don't have the connection for it.

IIRC a woman in the scene actually rolls her eyes at that, so I have a feeling, that Brandon knew how many would react to that and there has to be a reason, why he wrote it so over the top, because I'm also around Adolin's age and... no, my peers around the same age don't act like that around their partners. Besides, I don't remember any romance in a Sanderson book, that was this over the top. Not even the one in his Reckoners series and those books are actually kinda YA.

@BraidedRose Thanks for your thoughts! And wow, reading all pages of this thread is quite an accomplishment! Though I'm afraid, that I don't have much to say to your points, because I very much agree with them. I especially liked your idea of resolution. I also think, that Pattern will play in central role in that.

Edited December 24, 2017 by SLNC

[BraidedRose]

Thank you @DimChatz! I did read through the whole thread  though like I said I did skim some parts. It was kind of like therapy and you guys were giving me so many good things to think about. Plus once I got really deep into it I just had to keep going! I did also read @Ailvara's document, it was awesome! Also was very impressed with @Dreamstorm's analysis of Adolin's POVs.

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3 hours ago, insert_anagram_here said:

@BraidedRose I loved your post, it's, indeed, a very good summary (as @DimChatz said already) of the most strong arguments expressed so far.

To answer your question, yes, I'm very suspicious that Shallan has indeed a hidden personality that we are not aware of, but it's mostly a personal theory of mine which I've only expressed to a real life friend. When I don my tin foil hat...

  Reveal hidden contents

I'm actually suspicious that Shallan may not have been a Lightweaver originally, but this is her second nahel bond. This stems from the fact I'm not convinced that the very bright light, behind the painting (Location 6416 - Words of Radiance), is indeed Pattern. 

 

 

@insert_anagram_here ooh, very interesting theory! Curious whether you think Shallan previously breaking her bond with Pattern is separate from this then.

Spoiler

I mean, do you think Shallan broke her bond with Pattern after killing her mother and also had another bond to a different spren that was broken?

@Bookblessed I'm definitely sympathetic to how you feel, but like others have said my feeling on the ending has changed after reading this thread. I'm very interested to see what my gut feeling is after doing a re-read with this in mind. I'll have to decide whether to try to keep my hopes in check going into Book 4. 

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1 hour ago, SLNC said:

Yeah... this was just ugh. But I think, that is could be an indicator. They are trying to be romantic and cute, but it just turns out to be nauseating and cringy. They just don't have the connection for it.

IIRC a woman in the scene actually rolls her eyes at that, so I have a feeling, that Brandon knew how many would react to that and there has to be a reason, why he wrote it so over the top, because I'm also around Adolin's age and... no, my peers around the same age don't act like that around their partners. Besides, I don't remember any romance in a Sanderson book, that was this over the top. Not even the one in his Reckoners series and those books are actually kinda YA.

 

@SLNC really good point about this being especially over the top shmoopy for BS. Might help explain why my reaction was so strong and blech!

[Humming]

15 hours ago, BraidedRose said:

I think I am more in favor of Adolin reviving Maya and potentially becoming an ED than most people here, but I think it order for that to happen Adolin likely needs to be far more broken than he is now (perhaps the revelation about the "Shallan" he married vs trueShallan could be part of that).

First of all, welcome. I'm also new here and the strongest reason to create an account was this enormous discussion in this thread. I loved your contribution, agreed in everything.

I also would love to see Adolin as an Edgedancer, if we sum up him failing the relationship he finally was focused the most and the discovering of the truth about his mother's death, maybe that would be enough for him to be broken and able to bond.

[BraidedRose]

@Humming thanks! I’ve also seen elsewhere people talking about Adolin breaking over finding out the truth about his mother, but I have my doubts that it is going to go that way. The one year time gap seems to make that less likely if we assume Dalinar’s Oathbringer will be released in that time and that’s the way Adolin will find the truth. I hope Adolin and Renarin will have some strong reaction to that which we get to see but I hope whatever breaks Adolin enough for a bond (if that really does happen) will be something that doesn’t mostly happen off screen. Since Adolin has been established as one of very few non broken characters I think we really need to see it happen to believe it and it could be interesting if it goes that route. Seems quite plausible that things falling apart with Shallan could be part of that, especially if he was already starting to break from learning the truth about Evi’s death.

[Humming]

28 minutes ago, BraidedRose said:

@Humming thanks! I’ve also seen elsewhere people talking about Adolin breaking over finding out the truth about his mother, but I have my doubts that it is going to go that way. The one year time gap seems to make that less likely if we assume Dalinar’s Oathbringer will be released in that time and that’s the way Adolin will find the truth. I hope Adolin and Renarin will have some strong reaction to that which we get to see but I hope whatever breaks Adolin enough for a bond (if that really does happen) will be something that doesn’t mostly happen off screen. Since Adolin has been established as one of very few non broken characters I think we really need to see it happen to believe it and it could be interesting if it goes that route. Seems quite plausible that things falling apart with Shallan could be part of that, especially if he was already starting to break from learning the truth about Evi’s death.

Yeah, I can accept the rushed marriage as a plot device for a further advance in healing Shallan's mind and finally understand who she is. But the one year timeskip really upsets me. It is so convenient to avoid a boring pregnancy phase for a main character that it's almost mandatory. If in the next book we find out that the slow Kaladin and Shallan interactings built where just a red herring, it would be a waste of pages because it would have made the opposite effect. Instead of strengthening Adolin and Shallan connection, it weakened it.

I always thought of Sanderson as a meticulous writer even if he is not that good in romance plots. What will happen 1 year later? Shallan, who had almost broke apart will be magicaly healed and is her true self? I don't see the marriage working well after being something so sudden, and built over a fachade of suppresed emotions (Adolin knows nothing about true-Shallan, thats a harsh fact).

Anyway, the timeskip can be used as a poor excuse to mend these flaws offscreen, but I doubt that even Shadolin shippers would be happy with this. It'd be like putting a band-aid on an amputation.

[Info_Drone-0451]

11 minutes ago, Humming said:

But the one year timeskip really upsets me.

Well, I choose to look at it like that: one year is plenty of time for the passion and infatuation to fade, and problems to start popping up and characters realising that maybe there're issues with their union that should have been resolved before they got married. And maybe those characters aren't ready to deal with these matters, especially if these issues had a year to take root and to be mulled over by those who should have thought a little more before making rush decisions while knowing how flawd these decisions where.

I hope I'm being coherent but I have developed a monstrous headache so...

Edited December 24, 2017 by DimChatz

[Dreamstorm]

18 hours ago, BraidedRose said:

Lastly, I haven't read all of BS's books, though I have read several others outside of SA and I can't think of any examples of relationships that really fit the braided roses theme he talked about. Is there one that comes to mind for anyone else?

I’d argue that the vast majority of Brandon’s romances play a bit on the theme, and some of his friendships too. Even Dalinar starts out “prickly” with Navani, and she had her own barbed moments with him. I haven’t read Elantris, so cannot comment on that. Mistborn Era 1 and 2 and Warbreaker spoilers:

Spoiler

Sazed and Tindwyl fit it pretty perfectly. Breeze and Allrianne in a way (even though they were sleeping together from the beginning) based on their personality conflicts especially on Breeze’s side. Spook and Beldra arguably too not based on emotional strife but because they are on opposite sides of a conflict.

Wax and Steris fit pretty perfectly too; this is probably the most straight-forward example. Even though engaged, their personalities clashed and had to “grow” together (and ended up complementing each other really well.) 

Suri and Sesebron have aspects in the she disliked him and he was wary of her. The have to “grow” together as well to get past a bad initial set up. Though it’s not romantic (that we know), Vivenna and Vasher have a classic braided rose set up. (Vasher is a bit like Kaladin where he seems to have personality conflicts with almost everyone haha.)

In SA from a non-romantic perspective, Adolin and Kaladin are classic braided rose. In general, Brandon seems to write relationships with conflict - either personality conflict between the two (S/T, W/S) or an external situation which throws the two into conflict (B/A, S/B, S/S). The fact Adolin and Shallan seem fairly conflict free (personalities fit from the first meeting (of course Shallan tries very hard to make this the case), on the same side of the external conflict, and even the Kaladin attraction didn’t have any repercussions on the relationship) is something which some people see as a reason to like Shadolin (because it is refreshingly without conflict and all cute compatability) and some people see as boring. I’d argue it’s not very Brandon to have a relationship so devoid of conflict, but the rebuttal will be that Kaladin’s purpose in the triangle was to provide that conflict, even though that “conflict” was primarily internal to Shallan (and she mostly pushed it aside rather than actually having it cause any issues in the relationship.) All a matter of perspective!

Edited December 24, 2017 by Dreamstorm

[Harbour]

@SLNC @Ailvara its done)

 

I hope some of you twitted the link to Brandon as i did. The more people will twit him that summary, the higher chance he will read it. 

Edited December 25, 2017 by Harbour

[Vissy]

I've tweeted it at him as well. Maybe he'll see it.

[BraidedRose]

On the one year time skip, I feel pretty confident that it won't be as bad as your fear @Humming and Brandon won't be using it to resolve conflicts off screen, I believe he is a better writer than that. I like @DimChatz's idea about it being a good reason for why Shadolin are not in a lovey honeymoon phase when we return. 

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23 hours ago, Dreamstorm said:

I’d argue that the vast majority of Brandon’s romances play a bit on the theme, and some of his friendships too. Even Dalinar starts out “prickly” with Navani, and she had her own barbed moments with him. I haven’t read Elantris, so cannot comment on that. Mistborn Era 1 and 2 and Warbreaker spoilers:

  Reveal hidden contents

Sazed and Tindwyl fit it pretty perfectly. Breeze and Allrianne in a way (even though they were sleeping together from the beginning) based on their personality conflicts especially on Breeze’s side. Spook and Beldra arguably too not based on emotional strife but because they are on opposite sides of a conflict.

Wax and Steris fit pretty perfectly too; this is probably the most straight-forward example. Even though engaged, their personalities clashed and had to “grow” together (and ended up complementing each other really well.) 

Suri and Sesebron have aspects in the she disliked him and he was wary of her. The have to “grow” together as well to get past a bad initial set up. Though it’s not romantic (that we know), Vivenna and Vasher have a classic braided rose set up. (Vasher is a bit like Kaladin where he seems to have personality conflicts with almost everyone haha.)

In SA from a non-romantic perspective, Adolin and Kaladin are classic braided rose. In general, Brandon seems to write relationships with conflict - either personality conflict between the two (S/T, W/S) or an external situation which throws the two into conflict (B/A, S/B, S/S). The fact Adolin and Shallan seem fairly conflict free (personalities fit from the first meeting (of course Shallan tries very hard to make this the case), on the same side of the external conflict, and even the Kaladin attraction didn’t have any repercussions on the relationship) is something which some people see as a reason to like Shadolin (because it is refreshingly without conflict and all cute compatability) and some people see as boring. I’d argue it’s not very Brandon to have a relationship so devoid of conflict, but the rebuttal will be that Kaladin’s purpose in the triangle was to provide that conflict, even though that “conflict” was primarily internal to Shallan (and she mostly pushed it aside rather than actually having it cause any issues in the relationship.) All a matter of perspective!

 

All excellent points which makes me realize I was not thinking about this nearly carefully enough. Some of these I haven't read (I've read all of Mistborn era 1 but only Allow of Law in Mistborn era 2 - I need to finish that one and also get to Warbreaker) but in particular I was forgetting about one of these (see below) which as you pointed out is a great example.

Spoiler

Sazed and Tindwyl

It seems such a waste to have Kaladin just be a very brief conflict for Shadolin (and barely that) which is one of my issues with how this was written if it really does end there. 

Merry Christmas for those who celebrate!

[Humming]

1 hour ago, BraidedRose said:

On the one year time skip, I feel pretty confident that it won't be as bad as your fear @Humming and Brandon won't be using it to resolve conflicts off screen, I believe he is a better writer than that.

My trust in other authors have already been slain so I'm a bit skeptical even if I trust BS's serious way of fullfilling his deadlines. Merry Christmas to you, too, and the rest of the thread!

 

Also, I'm currently re-reading Edgedancer in these breaks between family and friends meetings and noticed that:

Spoiler

While Kaladin is called surgeon, Dalinar high prince and Szeth (I think it's him) is called assassin, Shallan is referred by the Sleepless as 'the liar'.

 

[smokeesid]

Adolin/Shalan/Kaladin angle is resolved in this book. The Althker army has fled to Hardaz and Tarah works in Mourn's vault which is situated on the border of Hardaz and Althker. That may have some implication in the fourth book